Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:31 AM - Hardware Question (carson)
2. 04:10 AM - Re: Fw: Pictures ()
3. 05:38 AM - Re: A 65 exhaust (Don Emch)
4. 05:51 AM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (womenfly2)
5. 06:12 AM - Re: integrity? (womenfly2)
6. 06:39 AM - Tundra tires (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
7. 06:56 AM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Phillips, Jack)
8. 07:14 AM - Re: Tundra tires ()
9. 08:17 AM - Re: integrity? (Gardiner Mason)
10. 08:35 AM - Re: integrity? (Ryan Mueller)
11. 08:49 AM - Re: integrity? (Ryan Mueller)
12. 09:09 AM - Re: integrity? (Gardiner Mason)
13. 09:41 AM - Re: integrity? (Ryan Mueller)
14. 09:55 AM - Re: integrity? (Jeff Boatright)
15. 11:36 AM - Re: integrity? (Phillips, Jack)
16. 12:33 PM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Patrick Panzera)
17. 12:39 PM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Patrick Panzera)
18. 01:44 PM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Phillips, Jack)
19. 01:44 PM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Phillips, Jack)
20. 03:06 PM - Re: integrity? 2nd picture (Gardiner Mason)
21. 03:13 PM - Re: Re: A 65 exhaust (Gene & Tammy)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Hardware Question |
Hi All
Another Piet is under construction in Australia,20 ribs so far and the spruce for
the tail is on the way.
First of all thanks to everyone that has answered my previous questions.
Now for the next one
Has anyone done a list of hardware nuts,bolts etc required for the Piet if not
would it be worth it for me to buy one of those assorted kits from AS&S.
What have others done?
I think I have an addiction if I'm not working on it I'm thinking about working
on it.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136947#136947
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They look like tundra tires on there.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leon
Stefan
Sent: September 27, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: Pictures
Below is a picture of the reinforcement usd in the Price front cockpit
door. The reinf. is a 1X5 plank running from the front gear/strut point,
to the area of the seat back/floor. It's hell for stout! Leon Stefan.
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| Subject: | Re: A 65 exhaust |
Gene,
The heat muff is attached to both exhaust pipes. I've had carb ice a couple of
times in damp weather and pulling carb heat seems to clear it right up. There
is an inlet at the front of the muff facing right into the slipstream. I'll
try to get out and get a better picture for you. I made the flanges and pipes,
it really is pretty simple. I think I have maybe $15-$20 in the whole thing.
Don
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136962#136962
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| Subject: | Re: integrity? 2nd picture |
What other type of bracing do you have beside what is in the picture? I would say
you need to add a truss brace to the lower half.
Keri-Ann Price
http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/index.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136965#136965
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> rmueller23: Cut .... To me, Keri-Ann's door always looked overbuilt (based on
the pic on her website), for something that will not provide any structural strength.
The door in not overbuilt for its usage, opening and closing is pretty hard on
a door over time and if you what to, the door could be left off.
All the strength lies in the lower truss bracing. Its a carry-through beam similar
to any steel tube design with a side door.
On a side note: The strength of the design was also proven went the plane was flipped
over on landing. She went straight up on her nose, stopped for a fraction
on a second, then continued over and slammed down very hard on the fin/rudder.
There was NO damage to the door side. Damage to the firewall, engine mounts,
and fin only. Did not think at the time it was over built. No one was hurt
either, just a bruised ego.
Keri-Ann
Mechanical Design Engineer
http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136968#136968
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Yah, they are tundra tires on Douglass ATV wheelsl Leon S.
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| Subject: | integrity? 2nd picture |
Gardiner, I am an engineer, and used to work in Aerospace. It would
have been useful for you to ask these questions BEFORE you built the
fuselage (I would have said "Don't do it"). What you have may be
adequate, for normal operations. What I can't predict is how it will
behave under adverse conditions. Presumably, if you need a door to get
the passenger or the pilot in, they are larger than normal folks and
will put a good bit of load on the structure. I have always used the
lack of easy entry/egress of the front cockpit to limit the type of
passenger whom I take up. It seems that young, slim-figured women
(particularly pretty ones) have no trouble getting into the front 'pit.
Curiously, it seems to discourage overweight males with beer-bellies.
My Piet has a 65 Continental and is heavier than most with an empty
weight of over 700 lbs. It does not climb well with a load on a hot
day. Encouraging loading it by making it easy for the load to get in is
not necessarily a good idea.
Several people have commented on the loads a hard landing will put on
the structure. I'm not so concerned about that because a failure there
will not be likely to kill you. I'm more concerned with what happens
when you are carrying a 200 lb passenger with a full load of fuel and
hit a bunch of turbulence. I have a G meter in my RV4 and there have
been a number of times when I've hit turbulence that registered more
than 3 G's. If you are 200 lbs and your passenger is too, and you've
got say 15 gallons of fuel, and assuming you've got a Pietenpol of
average empty weight of around 650 lbs, that 3 G thermal will be
imposing a load of 3,420 lbs on your structure.
You mentioned that you used 1/4" plywood on the fuselage sides. That
will help in carrying the loads, essentially making it a "stressed skin"
type of structure. Adding the "longeron" that you did is not likely to
help much, for a couple of reasons. One, it is not a continuous piece
and is relying on the plywood to carry the load across the gaps (you'll
get essentially no strength at all from the butt joints you provided. A
true scarf joint can develop the full strenght of the longeron, but it
needs to have a slope of 15:1 to do so), so if the plywood isn't strong
enough it will break with or without the added longeron. Secondly, you
have put your longeron near the neutral axis of the structure, where
there is little load except in the areas where you cut out the doors.
The nice thing is, you know exactly where it will break - right at the
corners of the door cutouts, or in the lower longeron directly beneath
one of those corners. The rear door is of more concern to me than the
front door. The front door is between the cabane struts and the lift
strut attach points. The rear cutout is aft of all the lift loads and
landing gear loads and the moment of a heavy pilot (please tell me you
only weigh 150 lbs!) will put a lot of stress on the forward lower
corner of that door cutout, and the lower longeron directly beneath it.
I know there are Pietenpols flying with front door cutouts. I have
never seen one with a rear door cutout.
As someone else suggested, please put good plywood gussets over the
joints, particularly around the doors. If I had bought a fuselage with
this type of door (which I wouldn't), I would cover the area on the
inside of the fuelage around the doors with plywood to make a box type
structure. The upper longeron is loaded in tension when the airplane is
under positive G's, and compression under negative G's and landing
loads. There needs to be a continuous "path" for loads to transfer
along the longeron. By cutting the longeron for a door, you have broken
that path. Making a plywood box to attach the door opening to the upper
longeron fore and aft will help to restore it.
Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point is
to test it in flight. Wear a parachute! Try to get to a safe altitude
(where you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put some severe
loads on it by yanking and banking, just to see if you can break it. If
you break it, the parachute will save your life. If it doesn't break,
you'll have confidence that it should be strong enough to risk your
life as well as your passenger's lives in it.
Sorry for the negativity, but I'm a big chicken when it comes to
aircraft structure.
Jack Phillips, PE
Tech Counselor, EAA Chapter 1114
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gardiner
Mason
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
front door:
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack <mailto:Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I wouldn't plan
on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or not.
Jack Phillips
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gardiner
Mason
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7"
deep and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit.
Before covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each
vertical and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the
bellcrank stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then
cut the doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with
fir and hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin
arrangement to lock the doors in place. Have I protected the truss
integridy on this side? I am not an engineer and I just want to know if
I did the right thing.
Gardiner Mason
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ics.com
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Message 8
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Cool;I'd like to hear how they make out when you fly her.Keep us
posted,thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leon
Stefan
Sent: September 28, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tundra tires
Yah, they are tundra tires on Douglass ATV wheelsl Leon S.
Message 9
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Thanks to every one who took the time to respond to my question about
the cockpit doors. After reading your input, I have decided to close up
the doors to restore the structural integrity. This forum is a great
place to learn! Next time, I'll ask BEFORE I make a change in the Piet
plans :-)
-Gardiner
----- Original Message -----
From: Gardiner Mason
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:50 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep and
12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each vertical
and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the bellcrank
stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut the
doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir and
hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to
lock the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on this
side? I am not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the right
thing.
Gardiner Mason
Message 10
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Message 11
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Hmm....not sure why it didn't put anything in the body the first time. Try again....
I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to pile on.
Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise questions in my mind.
Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by what those pics show.
On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are running front
to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension
cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for, and what type/size
of wire it is?
Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort of clamps
are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they rather resemble the
household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used something looking like that
to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot recall seeing that used in
an aircraft application; personally I would not. I would gravitate towards the
rubber cushioned Adel style clamps instead.
Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through those clamps,
and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that
would raise flags to me.
11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that chafing
will not occur against the airframe or other components.
&
11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as practicable, so that
they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the aircraft.
Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp
as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not
be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on
this one.
Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be hardware
store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I would be worried
about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as they move around. Especially
if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large passenger that needs that door to
get in. They may fill the cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if
they don't any better (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even
in the rear cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be
a good likelihood of snagging those wires.
As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to
the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass
the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at
things as you build?
Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind. Have a good
day,
---------------------------------
Building a website is a piece of cake.
Message 12
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Thanks for the suggestions on the cable clamps. I will change them, and I
plan on using spiral wrap to cover all the wires. I just did the wiring so
I know I am not finished yet. The black and red wires that you see on the
stb. side are 8 gage from the battery to the starter and ground. Battery is
right behind the rear seat. Gardiner Mason---- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138
> X-TM-AS-Engine-Type: TMASE
> X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: TMAS_OE-3.53.0.1042-3.6.1039-15452000
> X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.860-5.000-31
>
>
> so-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by
> what those pics show.
>
> On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are running
> front to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort of
> look like extension cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for, and
> what type/size of wire it is?
>
> Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort of
> clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they rather
> resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used something
> looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot recall
> seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I would not. I
> would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style clamps instead.
>
> Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through those
> clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of paragraphs in
> AC-43.13 that would raise flags to me.
>
> 11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that
> chafing will not occur against the airframe or other components.
>
> &
>
> 11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as practicable,
> so that they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the
> aircraft.
>
> Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as
> sharp as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there.
> This may not be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more
> practical experience on this one.
>
> Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be
> hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I
> would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as they
> move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large
> passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the cockpit, and
> could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better (and you should
> assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear cockpit, if one is
> not diminutive, I would think there would be a good likelihood of snagging
> those wires.
>
> As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low
> next to the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where
> they pass the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
>
> One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of eyes
> look at things as you build?
>
> Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind. Have
> a good day,
>
> Ryan
> Gardiner Mason <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote: I don't have any
> plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this email, and another on
> the way.) Does this give you any idea?
>
> Thank you for your comments-
> -Gardiner
>
>
> back door
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phillips, Jack
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I wouldn't plan on
> getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or not.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Gardiner Mason
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep
> and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
> covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each vertical
> and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the bellcrank
> stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut the
> doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir and
> hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to
> lock the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on this
> side? I am not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the right
> thing.
>
> Gardiner Mason
>
>
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
> notify the sender
>
> Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
> Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
> listings, and more!
> --0-1816126823-1190993537=:89445
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by
> what those pics show.<br><br>On the pic of the front cockpit, the black
> and red wires that are running front to rear below the door; those are
> pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension cord wire. Could you
> expound on what they are for, and what type/size of wire it
> is?<br><br>Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits:
> what sort of clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics,
> they rather resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I
> used something looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I
> cannot recall seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I
> would not. I would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style
> clamps instead.<br><br>Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire
> is routed through those clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a
> couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that would raise flags to
> me.<br><br>11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a
> manner that chafing will not occur against the airframe or other
> components.<br><br>&<br><br>11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are
> routed, insofar as practicable, so that they are not exposed to damage by
> personnel moving within the aircraft.<br><br>Para Q wouldn't be a huge
> concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp as an aluminum
> stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not be that
> much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on this
> one.<br><br>Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what
> appears to be hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the
> cockpit, I would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring
> as they move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up
> a large passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the
> cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better
> (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear
> cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be a good
> likelihood of snagging those wires. <br><br>As far as where to put them,
> I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to the passenger, to
> avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass the rudder bar,
> to avoid tangling your feet. <br><br>One final question: have you had a
> Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at things as you build?
> <br><br>Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious
> mind. Have a good day,<br><br>Ryan<br><b><i>Gardiner Mason
> <airlion@bellsouth.net></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq"
> style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;
> padding-left: 5px;"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157"
> name="GENERATOR"> <style></style> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I
> don't have any plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this email,
> and another on the way.) Does this give you any idea?</font></div>
> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font
> face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments-</font></div> <div><font
> face="Arial" size="2">-Gardiner</font></div> <div><font face="Arial"
> size="2"></font> </div> <div><span style="font-size: 12pt;
> font-family: Arial;"><img
> src="cid:2123317407000000@web54407.mail.yahoo.com" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"
> height="382" width="575"></span></div> <div><span style="font-size: 12pt;
> font-family: Arial;"><font size="2">back door</font></span></div>
> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);
> padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right:
> 0px;"> <div style="font-family: arial; font-style:
> normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt;
> line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
> Original Message ----- </div> <div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228)
> none repeat scroll
> 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial;
> -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial;
> font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size:
> 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch:
> normal;"><b>From:</b> <a title="Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com"
> href="mailto:Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com">Phillips, Jack</a> </div>
> <div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
> font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;
> font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a
> title="pietenpol-list@matronics.com"
> href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com</a>
> </div> <div
> style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
> font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;
> font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
> September 27, 2007 1:01 PM</div> <div style="font-family: arial;
> font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size:
> 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch:
> normal;"><b>Subject:</b> RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?</div>
> <div><br></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"
> size="2">Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I
> wouldn't plan on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or
> not.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"
> size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff"
> face="Arial" size="2">Jack Phillips</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr"
> align="left"><span class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff"
> face="Arial" size="2">Raleigh, NC</font></span></div><br> <div
> class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us"> <hr
> tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
> href="mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com">owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com</a>
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] <b>On Behalf Of
> </b>Gardiner Mason<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51
> AM<br><b>To:</b> <a
> href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com</a><br><b>Subject:</b>
> Pietenpol-List: integrity?<br></font><br></div> <div></div> <div><font
> face="Arial" size="2"> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I am
> building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep and 12"
> wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
> ">fall's hot new shows</a> on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings,
> and more!
>
>
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> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List</a>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
> --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445
> 0-1816126823-1190993537=: 89445--
>
>
> --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445--
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You mention the battery being behind the rear seat. Since you have a battery I
am assuming you are not using the Model A, maybe a small Continental, quite possibly
the Corvair. The Piet, based on what I have read in this forum, tends to
be tail heavy as it is. Depending upon your size, you may want to consider relocating
the battery farther forward, possibly on the firewall somewhere if you
have the room.
Can someone else speak to this (I've done A LOT of reading, but no flying; can
someone with practical experience put in their two cents)?
Thanks for the suggestions on the cable clamps. I will change them, and I
plan on using spiral wrap to cover all the wires. I just did the wiring so
I know I am not finished yet. The black and red wires that you see on the
stb. side are 8 gage from the battery to the starter and ground. Battery is
right behind the rear seat. Gardiner Mason---- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mueller"
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138
> X-TM-AS-Engine-Type: TMASE
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> X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.860-5.000-31
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>
> so-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by
> what those pics show.
>
> On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are running
> front to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort of
> look like extension cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for, and
> what type/size of wire it is?
>
> Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort of
> clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they rather
> resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used something
> looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot recall
> seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I would not. I
> would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style clamps instead.
>
> Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through those
> clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of paragraphs in
> AC-43.13 that would raise flags to me.
>
> 11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that
> chafing will not occur against the airframe or other components.
>
> &
>
> 11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as practicable,
> so that they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the
> aircraft.
>
> Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as
> sharp as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there.
> This may not be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more
> practical experience on this one.
>
> Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be
> hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I
> would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as they
> move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large
> passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the cockpit, and
> could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better (and you should
> assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear cockpit, if one is
> not diminutive, I would think there would be a good likelihood of snagging
> those wires.
>
> As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low
> next to the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where
> they pass the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
>
> One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of eyes
> look at things as you build?
>
> Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind. Have
> a good day,
>
> Ryan
> Gardiner Mason wrote: I don't have any
> plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this email, and another on
> the way.) Does this give you any idea?
>
> Thank you for your comments-
> -Gardiner
>
>
> back door
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phillips, Jack
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I wouldn't plan on
> getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or not.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Gardiner Mason
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep
> and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
> covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each vertical
> and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the bellcrank
> stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut the
> doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir and
> hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to
> lock the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on this
> side? I am not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the right
> thing.
>
> Gardiner Mason
>
>
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
> notify the sender
>
> Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
> Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
>
> href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
> listings, and more!
> --0-1816126823-1190993537=:89445
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going by
> what those pics show.
On the pic of the front cockpit, the black
> and red wires that are running front to rear below the door; those are
> pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension cord wire. Could you
> expound on what they are for, and what type/size of wire it
> is?
Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits:
> what sort of clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics,
> they rather resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I
> used something looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I
> cannot recall seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I
> would not. I would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style
> clamps instead.
Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire
> is routed through those clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a
> couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that would raise flags to
> me.
11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a
> manner that chafing will not occur against the airframe or other
> components.
&
11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are
> routed, insofar as practicable, so that they are not exposed to damage by
> personnel moving within the aircraft.
Para Q wouldn't be a huge
> concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp as an aluminum
> stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not be that
> much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on this
> one.
Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what
> appears to be hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the
> cockpit, I would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring
> as they move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up
> a large passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the
> cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better
> (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear
> cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be a good
> likelihood of snagging those wires.
As far as where to put them,
> I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to the passenger, to
> avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass the rudder bar,
> to avoid tangling your feet.
One final question: have you had a
> Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at things as you build?
>
Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious
> mind. Have a good day,
Ryan
Gardiner Mason
> <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;
> padding-left: 5px;">
> name="GENERATOR"> I
> don't have any plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this email,
> and another on the way.) Does this give you any idea?
>
> face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments-
> face="Arial" size="2">-Gardiner
> size="2">
> src="cid:2123317407000000@web54407.mail.yahoo.com" v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"
> height="382" width="575">
back door
> -----
> Original Message -----
From:
> href="mailto:Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com">Phillips, Jack
> To:
> title="pietenpol-list@matronics.com"
> href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>
> style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
> font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;
> font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">Sent: Thursday,
> September 27, 2007 1:01 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
> class="191315816-27092007">
> size="2">Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I
> wouldn't plan on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or
> not.
> class="191315816-27092007">
> size="2">
> class="191315816-27092007">
> face="Arial" size="2">Jack Phillips
> align="left">
> face="Arial" size="2">Raleigh, NC
> class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
---------------------------------
> tabindex="-1"> From:
> href="mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com">owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Gardiner Mason
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51
> AM
> href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject:
> Pietenpol-List: integrity?
> face="Arial" size="2"> I am
> building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep and 12"
> wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
> ">fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings,
> and more!
>
>
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=== message truncated ==
---------------------------------
Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Message 14
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I have a C75 on mine with battery and starter. If I could hang the
battery in front of the prop, I'd do it! Our Piet, like many, is
tail heavy.
At 9:41 AM -0700 9/28/07, Ryan Mueller wrote:
>You mention the battery being behind the rear seat. Since you have a
>battery I am assuming you are not using the Model A, maybe a small
>Continental, quite possibly the Corvair. The Piet, based on what I
>have read in this forum, tends to be tail heavy as it is. Depending
>upon your size, you may want to consider relocating the battery
>farther forward, possibly on the firewall somewhere if you have the
>room.
>
>Can someone else speak to this (I've done A LOT of reading, but no
>flying; can someone with practical experience put in their two
>cents)?
>
>
--
_____________________________________________________________
Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD
Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA
Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis
mailto:jboatri@emory.edu
Message 15
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You're a good man, Gardiner. It takes a smart builder to put his
creation out for everyone to see, and then have the sense to make
changes as they are suggested. I remember how cautious I was to show my
project to our Tech Counselor, fearing he would be full of criticisms.
He made a few good suggestions, which I happily implemnted on my
airplane. It is ALWAYS a good idea to have another set of eyes look at
your project. Sometimes you just can't see problems because you are too
close to the project, but a fresh set of eyes can spot it immediately.
Do you have a Tech Counselor in your local EAA Chapter? If so, have him
come out and look over your project. You mentioned that you've got a
friend who built an RV8 - have him look it over too. It is not possible
to have too many people inspect it. Don't count on the FAA inspection
to find anything. They will mostly be looking at your paperwork, to
make sure you won't be a liability to them. They care very little if
you hurt yourself, as long as you don't hurt anyone else or cause a
problem for the FAA.
This group is a very valuable resource, as you've found. The thing to
realize is that a lot of opinions are bandied about, some of which are
based on fact. The tough part is figuring out which ones are fact, and
which ones are just opinions.
Jack Phillips
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gardiner
Mason
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
<airlion@bellsouth.net>
Thanks for the suggestions on the cable clamps. I will change them, and
I
plan on using spiral wrap to cover all the wires. I just did the wiring
so
I know I am not finished yet. The black and red wires that you see on
the
stb. side are 8 gage from the battery to the starter and ground. Battery
is
right behind the rear seat. Gardiner Mason---- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138
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> X-TM-AS-Result: No--4.860-5.000-31
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> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going
by
> what those pics show.
>
> On the pic of the front cockpit, the black and red wires that are
running
> front to rear below the door; those are pretty hefty wires, and sort
of
> look like extension cord wire. Could you expound on what they are for,
and
> what type/size of wire it is?
>
> Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear cockpits: what sort
of
> clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these pics, they
rather
> resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I used
something
> looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before. I cannot
recall
> seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally I would not. I
> would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style clamps
instead.
>
> Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire is routed through
those
> clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there are a couple of
paragraphs in
> AC-43.13 that would raise flags to me.
>
> 11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a manner that
> chafing will not occur against the airframe or other components.
>
> &
>
> 11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables are routed, insofar as
practicable,
> so that they are not exposed to damage by personnel moving within the
> aircraft.
>
> Para Q wouldn't be a huge concern. I understand a wood longeron is not
as
> sharp as an aluminum stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there.
> This may not be that much of an issue; I defer to those with more
> practical experience on this one.
>
> Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what appears to be
> hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in the cockpit, I
> would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the wiring as
they
> move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up a large
> passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the cockpit,
and
> could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any better (and you
should
> assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear cockpit, if one
is
> not diminutive, I would think there would be a good likelihood of
snagging
> those wires.
>
> As far as where to put them, I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them
low
> next to the passenger, to avoid any disturbance, and a little higher
where
> they pass the rudder bar, to avoid tangling your feet.
>
> One final question: have you had a Tech Counselor or another set of
eyes
> look at things as you build?
>
> Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious mind.
Have
> a good day,
>
> Ryan
> Gardiner Mason <airlion@bellsouth.net> wrote: I don't have any
> plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this email, and another
on
> the way.) Does this give you any idea?
>
> Thank you for your comments-
> -Gardiner
>
>
> back door
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Phillips, Jack
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:01 PM
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I wouldn't plan
on
> getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned or not.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Raleigh, NC
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> Gardiner Mason
> Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: integrity?
>
>
> I am building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7"
deep
> and 12" wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit.
Before
> covering the side I put an extra longeron lap jointed at each
vertical
> and angled stringer from the firewall back 8 feet to the bellcrank
> stringer. After covering the side with 1/4 inch plywood I then cut
the
> doors out to the new longeron. I then reinforced the doors with fir
and
> hinged them at the bottom. At the top edge I made a pin arrangement to
> lock the doors in place. Have I protected the truss integridy on
this
> side? I am not an engineer and I just want to know if I did the
right
> thing.
>
> Gardiner Mason
>
>
> ">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ics.com
>
> _________________________________________________
>
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> notify the sender
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>
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>
> I apologize for changing the subject, and please don't think I mean to
> pile on. Just a couple of other comments on things I see that raise
> questions in my mind. Also, please don't be offended, I'm just going
by
> what those pics show.<br><br>On the pic of the front cockpit, the
black
> and red wires that are running front to rear below the door; those are
> pretty hefty wires, and sort of look like extension cord wire. Could
you
> expound on what they are for, and what type/size of wire it
> is?<br><br>Concerning the wire routing in both front and rear
cockpits:
> what sort of clamps are you using with that wire? To me, from these
pics,
> they rather resemble the household wire routing clamps from Menards; I
> used something looking like that to run speaker wire in a home before.
I
> cannot recall seeing that used in an aircraft application; personally
I
> would not. I would gravitate towards the rubber cushioned Adel style
> clamps instead.<br><br>Secondly, in the rear cockpit, the way the wire
> is routed through those clamps, and around the fuselage strut: there
are a
> couple of paragraphs in AC-43.13 that would raise flags to
> me.<br><br>11-96.q: Ensure that wires and cables are routed in such a
> manner that chafing will not occur against the airframe or other
> components.<br><br>&<br><br>11-96.s: Ensure that wires and cables
are
> routed, insofar as practicable, so that they are not exposed to damage
by
> personnel moving within the aircraft.<br><br>Para Q wouldn't be a huge
> concern. I understand a wood longeron is not as sharp as an aluminum
> stringer or bulkhead, but the potential is there. This may not be that
> much of an issue; I defer to those with more practical experience on
this
> one.<br><br>Para S would concern me more. With cable secured by what
> appears to be hardware store cable clamps, placed in that position in
the
> cockpit, I would be worried about pilot or passenger disturbing the
wiring
> as they move around. Especially if, as Jack indicated, you load up
> a large passenger that needs that door to get in. They may fill the
> cockpit, and could snag or pull on those wires if they don't any
better
> (and you should assume no one does know any better). Even in the rear
> cockpit, if one is not diminutive, I would think there would be a good
> likelihood of snagging those wires. <br><br>As far as where to put
them,
> I'm not entirely sure. Maybe route them low next to the passenger, to
> avoid any disturbance, and a little higher where they pass the rudder
bar,
> to avoid tangling your feet. <br><br>One final question: have you had
a
> Tech Counselor or another set of eyes look at things as you build?
> <br><br>Again, please don't be offended, just questions from a curious
> mind. Have a good day,<br><br>Ryan<br><b><i>Gardiner Mason
> <airlion@bellsouth.net></i></b> wrote:<blockquote class="replbq"
> style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: 5px;
> padding-left: 5px;"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type"
content="text/html;
> charset=iso-8859-1"> <meta content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3157"
> name="GENERATOR"> <style></style> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I
> don't have any plans, but I am sending two pictures (one in this
email,
> and another on the way.) Does this give you any idea?</font></div>
> <div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div> <div><font
> face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your comments-</font></div>
<div><font
> face="Arial" size="2">-Gardiner</font></div> <div><font face="Arial"
> size="2"></font> </div> <div><span style="font-size: 12pt;
> font-family: Arial;"><img
> src="cid:2123317407000000@web54407.mail.yahoo.com"
v:shapes="_x0000_i1025"
> height="382" width="575"></span></div> <div><span style="font-size:
12pt;
> font-family: Arial;"><font size="2">back door</font></span></div>
> <blockquote dir="ltr" style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0);
> padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right:
> 0px;"> <div style="font-family: arial; font-style:
> normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt;
> line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch:
normal;">-----
> Original Message ----- </div> <div style="background: rgb(228, 228,
228)
> none repeat scroll
> 0%; -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin:
-moz-initial;
> -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; font-family: arial;
> font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size:
> 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch:
> normal;"><b>From:</b> <a title="Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com"
> href="mailto:Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com">Phillips, Jack</a>
</div>
> <div style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal;
> font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;
> font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a
> title="pietenpol-list@matronics.com"
>
href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com<
/a>
> </div> <div
> style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
> font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal;
> font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Thursday,
> September 27, 2007 1:01 PM</div> <div style="font-family: arial;
> font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
font-size:
> 10pt; line-height: normal; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch:
> normal;"><b>Subject:</b> RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity?</div>
> <div><br></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"
> size="2">Impossible to tell without seeing the drawings. I
> wouldn't plan on getting any strength from the doors, though - pinned
or
> not.</font></span></div> <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff" face="Arial"
> size="2"></font></span> </div> <div dir="ltr"
align="left"><span
> class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff"
> face="Arial" size="2">Jack Phillips</font></span></div> <div
dir="ltr"
> align="left"><span class="191315816-27092007"><font color="#0000ff"
> face="Arial" size="2">Raleigh, NC</font></span></div><br> <div
> class="OutlookMessageHeader" dir="ltr" align="left" lang="en-us">
<hr
> tabindex="-1"> <font face="Tahoma" size="2"><b>From:</b> <a
>
href="mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com">owner-pietenpol-
list-server@matronics.com</a>
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] <b>On Behalf Of
> </b>Gardiner Mason<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, September 27, 2007 11:51
> AM<br><b>To:</b> <a
>
href="mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com">pietenpol-list@matronics.com<
/a><br><b>Subject:</b>
> Pietenpol-List: integrity?<br></font><br></div> <div></div>
<div><font
> face="Arial" size="2"> <div><font face="Arial" size="2">I am
> building a Pietenpol and I have cut two doors doors (7" deep and
12"
> wide) in the right-side front cockpit and rear cockpit. Before
> ">fall's hot new shows</a> on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get
listings,
> and more!
>
>
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> 7CuQBCw5BFG3I5HSpOmfSm5+Y1IH/9k
>
> <pre><b><font size=2 color="#000000" face="courier new,courier">
>
>
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List</a>
> href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com</a>
>
> </b></font></pre>
> --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445
> 0-1816126823-1190993537=: 89445--
>
>
> --0-1430201902-1190993537=:89445--
_________________________________________________
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Message 16
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| Subject: | integrity? 2nd picture |
An airframe while in flight is not likened to a 20' 2x12 plank supported by
sawhorses at both ends, with two fat people sitting in the middle.
The total weight of the plane and the total support of the weight are
virtually in the same place (CL just behind of the CG) and unless you have a
wicked aft CG where the horizontal stabilizer is supporting as much weight
as the wing (which by size alone is physically impossible), I can't see how
any 3g gusts are going to cause the fuselage to fracture in the middle.
If the plane is being flown within the specified W&B limits, the wing is
lifting as the elevator is pushing down, and any upward gust should take
stress off the fuselage, not add to it... and in fact, the flying surfaces
should stall before they end up working against one another in a manner that
could cause the fuselage to buckle in the middle, stress riser or not.
Here's another way to look at it. Take a surfboard and a Boogie Board and
attach them together with a plank between them, producing a planform that
represents an airplane. The surfboard being the wing, the Boogie Board being
the empennage and the plank representing the fuselage.
Now float the "craft" in water and start adding weight to the middle of the
plank in an effort to bust it. A TRUE and proper test would be to put all
the weight on the plank where it meets the surfboard, but for this exercise
we'll put it in the middle.
With each pound added, I would expect to see the Boogie Board to begin to
submerge with little or no distortion to the 2x12.
A real static load test would be to support the rear of the Piet by the
horizontal stabilizer ONLY (not the tail wheel) and load the fuselage until
something breaks. My money would be on the horizontal stab failing WAY
before the notched fuselage.
But then again, I'm not a PE.
Pat
==========================================================
Gardiner, I am an engineer, and used to work in Aerospace. It would have
been useful for you to ask these questions BEFORE you built the fuselage (I
would have said "Don't do it"). What you havemay beadequate, for normal
operations. What I can't predict is how it will behave under adverse
conditions. Presumably, if you need a door to get the passenger or the
pilot in, they are larger than normal folks and will put a good bit of load
on the structure. I have always used the lack of easy entry/egress of the
front cockpit to limit the type of passenger whom I take up. It seems that
young, slim-figured women (particularly pretty ones) have no trouble getting
into the front 'pit. Curiously, it seems to discourage overweight males
with beer-bellies. My Piet has a 65 Continental and is heavier than most
with an empty weight of over 700 lbs. It does not climb well with a load on
a hot day. Encouraging loading it by making it easy for the load to get in
is not necessarily a good idea.
Several people have commented on the loads a hard landing will put on the
structure. I'm not so concerned about that because a failurethere will not
be likely to kill you. I'm more concerned with what happens when you are
carrying a 200 lb passenger with a full load of fuel and hit a bunch of
turbulence. I have a G meter in my RV4 and there have been a number of
times when I've hit turbulence that registered more than 3 G's. If you are
200 lbs and your passenger is too, and you've got say 15 gallons of fuel,
and assuming you've got a Pietenpol of average empty weight of around 650
lbs, that 3 G thermal will be imposing a load of 3,420 lbs on your
structure.
Message 17
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| Subject: | integrity? 2nd picture |
Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank" the
opposite of those during a taxi?
Pat
Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point is to
test it in flight. Wear a parachute! Try to get to a safe altitude (where
you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put some severe loads on it
by yanking and banking, just to see if you can break it.
Message 18
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| Subject: | integrity? 2nd picture |
Pat,
What you say is true, up to a point. Most airplanes do in fact have a download
from the tail, while the wing is providing lift. Pietenpols don't necessarily
fit that mold, however. Most Pietenpols, mine included, fly with the tail actually
providing some lift. Look at a photo of a Piet in flight and you will
most likely see a little bit of down elevator being carried. Be that as it may,
what I am concerned about is not normal level flight but the loading produced
by a sudden burst of turbulence, which may be up, down or sideways. I've
flown my Pietenpol in more turbulence than I wished for, as have Mike Cuy and
Chuck Gantzer, and I can tell you I wouldn't be comfortable doing it with cutouts
in the top longeron, unless there is substantial reinforcement.
I disagree with your statement about a static load test. For one thing, I'm more
concerned with dynamic loading. To determine what would happen with a sudden
+G load, suspend the fuselage by the lift strut attach points (there is very
little lift carried by the cabane struts in a Pietenpol, since the lift struts
attach almost exactly in the middle of the wing panels). The tail loading
is probably small enough to disregard, but for the sake of argument, let's use
your idea of a small download on the tail. At any rate, you've got a substantial
moment in the tail of the aircraft which is being carried as tension in the
upper longerons. Now impart a sudden acceleration upwards, as if you just
flew into a thermal. The airplane is balanced, so the sum of the forces and moments
are zero and the fuselage does not pitch up or down. But the longerons
will certainly feel the increase in load. How much load are they carrying?
I haven't run an analysis on it to know for sure.
Jack
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Panzera
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:30 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
--> <Panzera@Experimental-Aviation.com>
An airframe while in flight is not likened to a 20' 2x12 plank supported by sawhorses
at both ends, with two fat people sitting in the middle.
The total weight of the plane and the total support of the weight are virtually
in the same place (CL just behind of the CG) and unless you have a wicked aft
CG where the horizontal stabilizer is supporting as much weight as the wing (which
by size alone is physically impossible), I can't see how any 3g gusts are
going to cause the fuselage to fracture in the middle.
If the plane is being flown within the specified W&B limits, the wing is lifting
as the elevator is pushing down, and any upward gust should take stress off
the fuselage, not add to it... and in fact, the flying surfaces should stall before
they end up working against one another in a manner that could cause the
fuselage to buckle in the middle, stress riser or not.
Here's another way to look at it. Take a surfboard and a Boogie Board and attach
them together with a plank between them, producing a planform that represents
an airplane. The surfboard being the wing, the Boogie Board being the empennage
and the plank representing the fuselage.
Now float the "craft" in water and start adding weight to the middle of the plank
in an effort to bust it. A TRUE and proper test would be to put all the weight
on the plank where it meets the surfboard, but for this exercise we'll put
it in the middle.
With each pound added, I would expect to see the Boogie Board to begin to submerge
with little or no distortion to the 2x12.
A real static load test would be to support the rear of the Piet by the horizontal
stabilizer ONLY (not the tail wheel) and load the fuselage until something
breaks. My money would be on the horizontal stab failing WAY before the notched
fuselage.
But then again, I'm not a PE.
Pat
==========================================================
Gardiner, I am an engineer, and used to work in Aerospace. It would have been useful
for you to ask these questions BEFORE you built the fuselage (I would have
said "Don't do it"). What you havemay beadequate, for normal operations. What
I can't predict is how it will behave under adverse conditions. Presumably,
if you need a door to get the passenger or the pilot in, they are larger than
normal folks and will put a good bit of load on the structure. I have always
used the lack of easy entry/egress of the front cockpit to limit the type of passenger
whom I take up. It seems that young, slim-figured women (particularly
pretty ones) have no trouble getting into the front 'pit. Curiously, it seems
to discourage overweight males with beer-bellies. My Piet has a 65 Continental
and is heavier than most with an empty weight of over 700 lbs. It does not climb
well with a load on a hot day. Encouraging loading it by making it easy for
the load to get in is not necessarily a good idea.
Several people have commented on the loads a hard landing will put on the structure.
I'm not so concerned about that because a failurethere will not be likely
to kill you. I'm more concerned with what happens when you are carrying a 200
lb passenger with a full load of fuel and hit a bunch of turbulence. I have
a G meter in my RV4 and there have been a number of times when I've hit turbulence
that registered more than 3 G's. If you are 200 lbs and your passenger is
too, and you've got say 15 gallons of fuel, and assuming you've got a Pietenpol
of average empty weight of around 650 lbs, that 3 G thermal will be imposing
a load of 3,420 lbs on your structure.
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
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- Portuguese
Message 19
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| Subject: | integrity? 2nd picture |
Yes. Who said they weren't?
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Panzera
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank" the
opposite of those during a taxi?
Pat
Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point is
to test it in flight. Wear a parachute! Try to get to a safe altitude
(where you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put some severe
loads on it by yanking and banking, just to see if you can break it.
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Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: integrity? 2nd picture |
Jack, with over 30,000 accident free hours I am not about to do any
yanking and banking. nuf said . Gardiner
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 4:44 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
Yes. Who said they weren't?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Patrick
Panzera
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 3:39 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: integrity? 2nd picture
Aren't the stresses imposed on the fuselage during a "yank and bank"
the opposite of those during a taxi?
Pat
Since you have it nearly complete, about all you can do at this point
is to test it in flight. Wear a parachute! Try to get to a safe
altitude (where you've got room for the 'chute to open) and then put
some severe loads on it by yanking and banking, just to see if you can
break it.
">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ics.com
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This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: A 65 exhaust |
Don, I hope to get started making them within the next two weeks. Photo's
would really be appreciated.
Many thanks for everything
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 7:37 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: A 65 exhaust
>
> Gene,
>
> The heat muff is attached to both exhaust pipes. I've had carb ice a
> couple of times in damp weather and pulling carb heat seems to clear it
> right up. There is an inlet at the front of the muff facing right into
> the slipstream. I'll try to get out and get a better picture for you. I
> made the flanges and pipes, it really is pretty simple. I think I have
> maybe $15-$20 in the whole thing.
>
> Don
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=136962#136962
>
>
> --
> 9/27/2007 11:06 AM
>
>
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