Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:44 AM - smells when flying open cockpits (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
2. 04:47 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Phillips, Jack)
3. 06:13 AM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
4. 06:23 AM - Re: center section wing tank ()
5. 06:23 AM - Re: wing stress article chart and illustration (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
6. 08:44 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Steve Glass)
7. 09:04 AM - Re: center section wing tank ()
8. 09:09 AM - Re: center section wing tank ()
9. 09:37 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Brian Kraut)
10. 09:56 AM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
11. 02:17 PM - Re: center section wing tank (Ryan Mueller)
12. 02:33 PM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
13. 07:39 PM - Re: smells when flying open cockpits (Rcaprd@aol.com)
Message 1
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| Subject: | smells when flying open cockpits |
A bit disconcerting to fly open cockpit airplanes as you smell
everything you do when riding
a motorcycle.....hay, pig farms, car exhaust over congested areas (like
around Chicago if you cut
the corner too close, which I've never done)manure being spread and most
disturbing
a factory smoke stack or fire, campfire, garbage fire which makes you
think you might have an engine fire and I typically
do some s-turns to look over my shoulder to see if I'm trailing
unintentional smoke.
Message 2
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| Subject: | center section wing tank |
Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If
you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I
never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is
that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
fuselage tank.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide,
BA, CPO, FAAOP
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:11 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
You know......just a thought here......
When you taxi up to the fuel area and shut the beautiful Pietenpol off,
climb out and show off the biggest smile in the world, you need to
figure out a way to pump the gas into your center wing tank.
Yes.......lets assume their is a ladder handy and you set up ready to
fill your award winning plane with fuel. Here comes the thought.....what
happens to the gas that you might spill when filling your tank?.....
Cockpit sound about right? what happens when in flight some gas get
sucked out and dribbles back towards you?....Cockpit sounds about right?
I guess my concerns are; the gas coming back on the pilot. Is there a
way to prevent this? I was interested in creating a center section tank
but find that my "wide-body" Pietenpol will have plenty of "gas" in the
nose and in rear cockpit!
PS. For those other "wide-body" Pietenpols, I think we need to make a
nice little logo sticker for the words "Wide-body Pietenpol." At least
this would offer some insights to those of us who wished to be known as
plan changers and wide-body people...tee-hee-hee...
Brian Kraut <brian.kraut@engalt.com> wrote:
I drew the profiles in Autocad and I get an area of the side
profile of the tank of 146 square inches if it is curved on the top and
126 if it is cut flat. That is a 14% difference which is about 2
gallons. Probably a little harder to make, but I have a friend with
slip rollers that can make the curve pretty easy. I am welding it up
out of 5052 and cutting the side sheets should be pretty easy also.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dick
Navratil
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:08 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
Brian
Sound prrety much what I did. Part of my annual
inspection has been removal of the tank for cleaning. I wouldnt bother
with trying to curve the top of the tank, I did the calculations and it
only adds about 1/2 gal. Its so much easier building a flat top tank.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Kraut
<mailto:brian.kraut@engalt.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing
tank
I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing
center section since the fuselage is already built and there is no tank
in it. by the shape of the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about
.62 gallons per linear inch of tank between the spars. That means that
to get a 15 gallon tank that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as
wide as I can get it.
The problem is that means only one rib on each
side of the tank instead of the normal four ribs in the center section
that the GN-1 plans show. I was thinking that I would run some 1/4"
square stringers on the bottom sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that
it will still hold the correct undercambered shape. I will also put
steel angle brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support the
weight of the tank. On the top I will do the plywood just in front of
the forward spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet
aluminum cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do
all the plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover
later if the tank ever needs to come out).
Has anyone else done this before? Anyone see
any problems with this? The center section will not be as strong as
with the four evenly spaced ribs, but I don't know that is really a
problem since each corner is braced by the jury struts and attached to
the outer wing panels.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
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Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: center section wing tank |
Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on
a design?
John
Message 4
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| Subject: | center section wing tank |
Birds that are wide body are owls, pengquins, albatrous, goony bird,
etc.or you could put a picture of a wide body jet up there but that
might confuse people.By the way penguins don't fly and I don't think the
goony did either.
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AMsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: October 4, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas
on a design?
John
________________________________
See what's new a_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage.
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: wing stress article chart and illustration |
Quite some time ago during my intense research phase I saw an article along
with illustrated information on wing stress related to the Piet, I believe?
The article discussed and illustrated all of the wing stress points and stress
values along the wing surfaces at the leading edge. Naturally I was so
impressed by the content I printed out the article for study at a later date and
moved on to the next research item.
Well as luck may have it, I can not locate the article in any of my
materials nor can I locate it on the net. Does anyone recall the article and
location? I am trying to get it again. I would appreciate any information on that
article or similar topic.
Please advise
Thanks
John
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: center section wing tank |
Piet + 6 ?????????
Steve in Maine
>From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
>Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:12:36 EDT
>
>Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on
>a design?
>
>John
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Spiderman 3 Spin to Win! Your chance to win $50,000 & many other great
prizes! Play now! http://spiderman3.msn.com
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: center section wing tank |
Is that "wide bodybuilder" or "wide-body builder"?
---- AMsafetyC@aol.com wrote:
> Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on
> a design?
>
> John
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | center section wing tank |
Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
Mike hardaway
---- "Phillips wrote:
> Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If
> you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
> rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
> getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
> carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
> fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
> rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
>
> Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
> with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I
> never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
> levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
> between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
> compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
> there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is
> that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
> fuselage tank.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
> Raleigh, NC
>
[snip]
Message 9
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| Subject: | center section wing tank |
I had briefly thought of that. The biggest problem is the drag and anti-drag wires.
A lot of Pipers are that way and they have tubes welded in the tanks with
the wires passing through the tubes. Not worth the trouble in my opinion unless
you really need the extra fuel capacity.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of
bike.mike@charter.net
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:10 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank
Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
Mike hardaway
---- "Phillips wrote:
> Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If
> you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
> rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
> getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
> carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
> fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
> rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
>
> Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
> with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I
> never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
> levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
> between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
> compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
> there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is
> that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
> fuselage tank.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
> Raleigh, NC
>
[snip]
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: center section wing tank |
this is the place that form and function meet!
John
Message 11
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| Subject: | center section wing tank |
Having been a lineboy (back in the day, as it were), I would say gas your own airplane,
and just pay attention when you do it. That will eliminate any gas in
the cockpit. Put a rag in your pocket to deal with any slight overflow. I would
gladly carry a rag in my pocket, and just be more careful than re-engineer
the design to put tanks in the outer wing.
If you can't be bothered to gas your own airplane then you might want to buy a
172 or low wing Piper.
Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty?
It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit
problem, but would complexify the plumbing.
Mike hardaway
---- "Phillips wrote:
> Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If
> you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the
> rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel
> getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would
> carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport
> fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the
> rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like).
>
> Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises
> with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I
> never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel
> levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space
> between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage
> compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in
> there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is
> that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a
> fuselage tank.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP "Icarus Plummet"
> Raleigh, NC
>
[snip]
---------------------------------
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Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: center section wing tank |
Ahhhhhhhh yes the ole rag in the pocket trick! all you need do is clean up
on fuel spill and return the rag to you back pocket an interesting lesson will
soon ensue. One I learned the hard way ,as a young, ambitious teenage gas
jockey at my uncles garage and gas station. Certainly a lesson not to be
forgotten easily if at all and certainly not the only one enriched by the high
test
experience of Sunoco custom blended motor fuels of the 1960's.
Hence first encounter with the issues of right to know, skin absorption and
related safety issues.
Enjoy the adventure and add to the treasure chest of life experience wealth !
John
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: smells when flying open cockpits |
On the return trip from Brodhead this year, Ben Taylor and I were flying
formation to Antique Airfield, low & slow, and we flew over a bakery that filled
the air with the fresh scent that bakery's are known for. That was the most
wonderful smell I've ever whiffed from my open cockpit !!
Chuck G.
NX770CG
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