---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/04/07: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:44 AM - smells when flying open cockpits (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 2. 04:47 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Phillips, Jack) 3. 06:13 AM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 4. 06:23 AM - Re: center section wing tank () 5. 06:23 AM - Re: wing stress article chart and illustration (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 6. 08:44 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Steve Glass) 7. 09:04 AM - Re: center section wing tank () 8. 09:09 AM - Re: center section wing tank () 9. 09:37 AM - Re: center section wing tank (Brian Kraut) 10. 09:56 AM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 11. 02:17 PM - Re: center section wing tank (Ryan Mueller) 12. 02:33 PM - Re: center section wing tank (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 13. 07:39 PM - Re: smells when flying open cockpits (Rcaprd@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:44:33 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: smells when flying open cockpits From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" A bit disconcerting to fly open cockpit airplanes as you smell everything you do when riding a motorcycle.....hay, pig farms, car exhaust over congested areas (like around Chicago if you cut the corner too close, which I've never done)manure being spread and most disturbing a factory smoke stack or fire, campfire, garbage fire which makes you think you might have an engine fire and I typically do some s-turns to look over my shoulder to see if I'm trailing unintentional smoke. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:47:17 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank From: "Phillips, Jack" Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like). Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a fuselage tank. Jack Phillips NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 1:11 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank You know......just a thought here...... When you taxi up to the fuel area and shut the beautiful Pietenpol off, climb out and show off the biggest smile in the world, you need to figure out a way to pump the gas into your center wing tank. Yes.......lets assume their is a ladder handy and you set up ready to fill your award winning plane with fuel. Here comes the thought.....what happens to the gas that you might spill when filling your tank?..... Cockpit sound about right? what happens when in flight some gas get sucked out and dribbles back towards you?....Cockpit sounds about right? I guess my concerns are; the gas coming back on the pilot. Is there a way to prevent this? I was interested in creating a center section tank but find that my "wide-body" Pietenpol will have plenty of "gas" in the nose and in rear cockpit! PS. For those other "wide-body" Pietenpols, I think we need to make a nice little logo sticker for the words "Wide-body Pietenpol." At least this would offer some insights to those of us who wished to be known as plan changers and wide-body people...tee-hee-hee... Brian Kraut wrote: I drew the profiles in Autocad and I get an area of the side profile of the tank of 146 square inches if it is curved on the top and 126 if it is cut flat. That is a 14% difference which is about 2 gallons. Probably a little harder to make, but I have a friend with slip rollers that can make the curve pretty easy. I am welding it up out of 5052 and cutting the side sheets should be pretty easy also. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 9:08 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Brian Sound prrety much what I did. Part of my annual inspection has been removal of the tank for cleaning. I wouldnt bother with trying to curve the top of the tank, I did the calculations and it only adds about 1/2 gal. Its so much easier building a flat top tank. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Kraut To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:10 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank I wanted to get a good sized tank in my wing center section since the fuselage is already built and there is no tank in it. by the shape of the wing (GN-1) I figured that I can get about .62 gallons per linear inch of tank between the spars. That means that to get a 15 gallon tank that it needs to be about 24" wide which is as wide as I can get it. The problem is that means only one rib on each side of the tank instead of the normal four ribs in the center section that the GN-1 plans show. I was thinking that I would run some 1/4" square stringers on the bottom sheet of plywood to stiffen it up so that it will still hold the correct undercambered shape. I will also put steel angle brackets mounted to the front and aft spar to support the weight of the tank. On the top I will do the plywood just in front of the forward spar and in back of the rear spar with a big removable sheet aluminum cover so I can get the tank out if I need to (or maybe just do all the plywood for now and I can cut it out and make the aluminum cover later if the tank ever needs to come out). Has anyone else done this before? Anyone see any problems with this? The center section will not be as strong as with the four evenly spaced ribs, but I don't know that is really a problem since each corner is braced by the jury struts and attached to the outer wing panels. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com =========== the many List utilities such as the Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List great content now also available via the http://forums.matronics.com =========== _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:13:16 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on a design? John ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:14 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank From: Birds that are wide body are owls, pengquins, albatrous, goony bird, etc.or you could put a picture of a wide body jet up there but that might confuse people.By the way penguins don't fly and I don't think the goony did either. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: October 4, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on a design? John ________________________________ See what's new a_blank">Make AOL Your Homepage. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:43 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wing stress article chart and illustration Quite some time ago during my intense research phase I saw an article along with illustrated information on wing stress related to the Piet, I believe? The article discussed and illustrated all of the wing stress points and stress values along the wing surfaces at the leading edge. Naturally I was so impressed by the content I printed out the article for study at a later date and moved on to the next research item. Well as luck may have it, I can not locate the article in any of my materials nor can I locate it on the net. Does anyone recall the article and location? I am trying to get it again. I would appreciate any information on that article or similar topic. Please advise Thanks John ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:44:14 AM PST US From: "Steve Glass" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Piet + 6 ????????? Steve in Maine >From: AMsafetyC@aol.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank >Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 09:12:36 EDT > >Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on >a design? > >John > > _________________________________________________________________ Spiderman 3 Spin to Win! Your chance to win $50,000 & many other great prizes! Play now! http://spiderman3.msn.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:57 AM PST US From: Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Is that "wide bodybuilder" or "wide-body builder"? ---- AMsafetyC@aol.com wrote: > Being a wide body builder I like the idea of a wide body logo! Any ideas on > a design? > > John > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:52 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty? It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit problem, but would complexify the plumbing. Mike hardaway ---- "Phillips wrote: > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the > rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel > getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would > carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like). > > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises > with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel > levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage > compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in > there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a > fuselage tank. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > Raleigh, NC > [snip] ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:37 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank I had briefly thought of that. The biggest problem is the drag and anti-drag wires. A lot of Pipers are that way and they have tubes welded in the tanks with the wires passing through the tubes. Not worth the trouble in my opinion unless you really need the extra fuel capacity. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of bike.mike@charter.net Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:10 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty? It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit problem, but would complexify the plumbing. Mike hardaway ---- "Phillips wrote: > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the > rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel > getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would > carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like). > > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises > with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel > levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage > compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in > there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a > fuselage tank. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > Raleigh, NC > [snip] ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:56:50 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank this is the place that form and function meet! John ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:17:47 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Having been a lineboy (back in the day, as it were), I would say gas your own airplane, and just pay attention when you do it. That will eliminate any gas in the cockpit. Put a rag in your pocket to deal with any slight overflow. I would gladly carry a rag in my pocket, and just be more careful than re-engineer the design to put tanks in the outer wing. If you can't be bothered to gas your own airplane then you might want to buy a 172 or low wing Piper. Has anyone built tanks in each wing outer section, leaving the center section empty? It would keep the advantage of fuel header pressure and get rid of the fuel-in-the-cockpit problem, but would complexify the plumbing. Mike hardaway ---- "Phillips wrote: > Ken, I've got my tank in the centersection and you are half right. If > you overfill the tank when refueling, all the excess fuel ends up in the > rear seat. However, I've never had any problem in flight with fuel > getting "sucked out". Even if it did, my guess is the slipstream would > carry it away. I've learned to NEVER let the line boy at the airport > fill my plane, unless I want to have my underwear smell like Avgas the > rest of the day (probably better than some things it could smell like). > > Like most things in aircraft design, there are tradeoffs and compromises > with any fuel tank location. I like the centersection tank, because I > never have to worry about having enough fuel pressure, even at low fuel > levels. Also, having the tank in the centersection frees up the space > between the front cockpit and the firewall for a generous sized baggage > compartment. I can carry my tent, sleeping bag, and a duffle bag in > there for true "Air Camping". The bad side of a centersection tank is > that plumbing the fuel lines is more difficult than it would be for a > fuselage tank. > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP "Icarus Plummet" > Raleigh, NC > [snip] --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:33:06 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: center section wing tank Ahhhhhhhh yes the ole rag in the pocket trick! all you need do is clean up on fuel spill and return the rag to you back pocket an interesting lesson will soon ensue. One I learned the hard way ,as a young, ambitious teenage gas jockey at my uncles garage and gas station. Certainly a lesson not to be forgotten easily if at all and certainly not the only one enriched by the high test experience of Sunoco custom blended motor fuels of the 1960's. Hence first encounter with the issues of right to know, skin absorption and related safety issues. Enjoy the adventure and add to the treasure chest of life experience wealth ! John ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:39:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: smells when flying open cockpits On the return trip from Brodhead this year, Ben Taylor and I were flying formation to Antique Airfield, low & slow, and we flew over a bakery that filled the air with the fresh scent that bakery's are known for. That was the most wonderful smell I've ever whiffed from my open cockpit !! Chuck G. 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