---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 10/25/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:58 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets () 2. 06:07 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (Ryan Mueller) 3. 09:06 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (Bill Church) 4. 09:08 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (Bill Church) 5. 09:42 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (Dave Abramson) 6. 12:27 PM - Fw: : When Pilots Retire (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 7. 02:15 PM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 8. 02:52 PM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets (walt evans) 9. 03:43 PM - Would like to join your discussion group (mmcfi@juno.com) 10. 04:16 PM - Re: Would like to join your discussion group (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 11. 04:33 PM - Re: Piet biplane (jimd) 12. 05:15 PM - Re: Would like to join your discussion group (Skip Gadd) 13. 05:44 PM - Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions (skellytownflyer) 14. 08:24 PM - Re: Would like to join your discussion group (Dick Navratil) 15. 11:37 PM - New Pietenpol Builder (Richard Baker) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:58:32 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets From: It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of what's been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: October 24, 2007 3:43 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Well, after a period of about a year and a half of zero building activity, I have finally gotten back to building my Pietenpol! And I must say, it does feel good to be back at it. As I was heading out to the garage at 10:00 last night, my wife said to me "Are you going out to play?". I am presently tackling the empennage - more specifically, the horizontal stabilizer, and last night (at midnight) I finished cutting the various pieces, and began to notch the areas where the 1/8" plywood gussets go. This appears at first glance to be a simple structure, but after studying the plans for a bit, becomes a little bit complicated. The "complicated" part is that the various cross-sections of the leading edge, trailing edge, main beam and center beam don't match dimensionally at the points where they intersect (and get covered with gussets). After a sufficient amount of head scratching time I finally realized that some of the ends would just need to be tapered at the gusset areas to bring the mating surfaces flush. Anyway, today, at lunch I was browsing the web, looking at pictures of how others had finished this part of their planes, and I got a little worried, as all the photos I found showed a different construction than what I had just finished cutting. The photos I found all showed the spruce joints mitered, and the gussets sitting inside the spruce lip around the perimeter of the stab, but I had cut my spruce joints with butt joints, and my gussets are all cut to sit flush with the outside perimeter of the stab (whereby the "lip" of spruce is trimmed away at the gusset locations). Before panic set in, I referred to the plans (what a crazy idea). My pulse immediately slowed back to normal, as the plans showed exactly what I had done last night. A little further investigation turned up a few photos showing that others had actually "built to the plans". One of those whose photos I found that built to the plans was Walt Evans, and it must have worked just fine, since we all know that his plane flies very well, thank-you. With my pulse back to normal I, too, can say "Ain't life grand!". Whew. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:54 AM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets The Matronics List Archive is also very useful for all those questions that have been asked before. I was 3/4 of the way through typing a question about the different beams in the empennage and where they go when I thought I had better check the archive first, and sure enough I found that exact question had been asked already. http://www.matronics.com/searching/search.html Pick the Piet list, and I particularly like the 3 view framed method of seeing your results. Makes it very easy to go through all the messages and not lose your place. Also, a careful reading of the instructions can help you find many more pertinent results than just typing in your search. For example, searching for "short fuselage corvair" will look for that exact quote with the words in that order, whereas a search for "short fuselage & corvair" will instead find all messages that have the phrase "short fuselage" and the word "corvair" somewhere in the message. I know this because I didn't initially read the search instructions, and wasn't getting as many good results. A slight modification of my method made an already useful resource just that much better. Ryan harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of whats been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. --------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: October 24, 2007 3:43 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Well, after a period of about a year and a half of zero building activity, I have finally gotten back to building my Pietenpol! And I must say, it does feel good to be back at it. As I was heading out to the garage at 10:00 last night, my wife said to me "Are you going out to play?". I am presently tackling the empennage - more specifically, the horizontal stabilizer, and last night (at midnight) I finished cutting the various pieces, and began to notch the areas where the 1/8" plywood gussets go. This appears at first glance to be a simple structure, but after studying the plans for a bit, becomes a little bit complicated. The "complicated" part is that the various cross-sections of the leading edge, trailing edge, main beam and center beam don't match dimensionally at the points where they intersect (and get covered with gussets). After a sufficient amount of head scratching time I finally realized that some of the ends would just need to be tapered at the gusset areas to bring the mating surfaces flush. Anyway, today, at lunch I was browsing the web, looking at pictures of how others had finished this part of their planes, and I got a little worried, as all the photos I found showed a different construction than what I had just finished cutting. The photos I found all showed the spruce joints mitered, and the gussets sitting inside the spruce lip around the perimeter of the stab, but I had cut my spruce joints with butt joints, and my gussets are all cut to sit flush with the outside perimeter of the stab (whereby the "lip" of spruce is trimmed away at the gusset locations). Before panic set in, I referred to the plans (what a crazy idea). My pulse immediately slowed back to normal, as the plans showed exactly what I had done last night. A little further investigation turned up a few photos showing that others had actually "built to the plans". One of those whose photos I found that built to the plans was Walt Evans, and it must have worked just fine, since we all know that his plane flies very well, thank-you. With my pulse back to normal I, too, can say "Ain't life grand!". Whew. Bill C. __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:06:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets From: "Bill Church" -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Ryan (and anyone else confused by my (NOT) eloquent description), Attached are a few pics to help explain: 01BHPdwg2clip.jpg is a detail from the plans, showing the leading edge and main beam running through, and the side pieces butting up against these pieces (not a mitered corner). The gussets are shown extending to the outside edges of the structure - the spruce "lip" would need to be trimmed away where the gussets lie. 02WEgusset.jpg is a photo of Walt Evans' construction, which appears to be exactly as per plans. 03JMgusset.jpg is a photo of Jim Markle's construction, which incorporates the mitered spruce joints, and the gussets sitting inside the spruce lip. Both methods work equally well. It just seems that most of the photos out there on the net are of the mitered corner version, like Jim's, rather than the BHP plans version, like Walt's. Bill C. PS: anyone on the list that only gets the digest version (no attachments) can view the photos by going to the following site: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=2ed4da73b54366540c0 d90 5c0d06a3a6 -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Michals [mailto:aircamperace@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Bill, Could you post an example pic of the "plans way" and the other way? It sounds confusing. Thank you, Ryan Michals NXxxxCC Clover Clipper ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:08:35 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets From: "Bill Church" Harvey, What do you think I've been doing for the past year and a half of not building??? If I start building any slower, I'll be taking things apart. just kidding... Actually, what happened was that when I first received my plans, I studied them, then started redrawing them using CAD (exactly as drawn by Orrin Hoopman). When the time came to start building again, I plotted out the drawing I had done a few years ago, and plopped it down on my building board, and used it to start cutting my parts. I was perfectly satisfied with my progress until I happened to look at a few photos of work done by others, and upon seeing differences compared to what I had done, I had a moment of panic. A quick check back to the plans revealed that all was okay - I was building to the plans - others had chosen to use a different technique. I guess my point was that photos of other's work can be very helpful, but they don't always show things the way they are in the plans - which is fine. In fact, quite often, the photos may show an improved method. As far as visual appearance goes, personally, I like the looks of the modified gusset attachment with mitered joints, but for ease of construction, the plans method is much easier. In the end, this beautiful woodwork all gets covered up anyway. Bill C ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of what's been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:42:12 AM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Hello All. This is where "interpretation" comes in. That is why Pietenpols are so fun! There are no 2 exactly alike! Kind of like people.. Dave Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:08 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Harvey, What do you think I've been doing for the past year and a half of not building??? If I start building any slower, I'll be taking things apart. just kidding... Actually, what happened was that when I first received my plans, I studied them, then started redrawing them using CAD (exactly as drawn by Orrin Hoopman). When the time came to start building again, I plotted out the drawing I had done a few years ago, and plopped it down on my building board, and used it to start cutting my parts. I was perfectly satisfied with my progress until I happened to look at a few photos of work done by others, and upon seeing differences compared to what I had done, I had a moment of panic. A quick check back to the plans revealed that all was okay - I was building to the plans - others had chosen to use a different technique. I guess my point was that photos of other's work can be very helpful, but they don't always show things the way they are in the plans - which is fine. In fact, quite often, the photos may show an improved method. As far as visual appearance goes, personally, I like the looks of the modified gusset attachment with mitered joints, but for ease of construction, the plans method is much easier. In the end, this beautiful woodwork all gets covered up anyway. Bill C _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of what's been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 12:27:40 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Fwd: : When Pilots Retire ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:15:20 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Ditto's......that why I use my glass eye on the left and my calibrated eye on the right! Village idiot! Dave Abramson wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} Hello All This is where interpretation comes in That is why Pietenpols are so fun! There are no 2 exactly alike! Kind of like people. Dave Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 9:08 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Harvey, What do you think I've been doing for the past year and a half of not building??? If I start building any slower, I'll be taking things apart. just kidding... Actually, what happened was that when I first received my plans, I studied them, then started redrawing them using CAD (exactly as drawn by Orrin Hoopman). When the time came to start building again, I plotted out the drawing I had done a few years ago, and plopped it down on my building board, and used it to start cutting my parts. I was perfectly satisfied with my progress until I happened to look at a few photos of work done by others, and upon seeing differences compared to what I had done, I had a moment of panic. A quick check back to the plans revealed that all was okay - I was building to the plans - others had chosen to use a different technique. I guess my point was that photos of other's work can be very helpful, but they don't always show things the way they are in the plans - which is fine. In fact, quite often, the photos may show an improved method. As far as visual appearance goes, personally, I like the looks of the modified gusset attachment with mitered joints, but for ease of construction, the plans method is much easier. In the end, this beautiful woodwork all gets covered up anyway. Bill C --------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of whats been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://forums.matronics.com Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:52:35 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Just to remind that my Piet was made 99.99999% to the prints. I'm a "to the prints" guy. That pic was of my tail, just before I pulled out the nails and started to bevel the trailing edge with a hand plane to get the desired results. "walt 100" is the rough,,,the rest are the finished products. And It's flying great. Make it to the plans. Don't change the plans. Why would you change the plans? Not one piece of his plans/design is deficient. What an insult to change it. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Church" Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 12:05 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 11:01 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Ryan (and anyone else confused by my (NOT) eloquent description), Attached are a few pics to help explain: 01BHPdwg2clip.jpg is a detail from the plans, showing the leading edge and main beam running through, and the side pieces butting up against these pieces (not a mitered corner). The gussets are shown extending to the outside edges of the structure - the spruce "lip" would need to be trimmed away where the gussets lie. 02WEgusset.jpg is a photo of Walt Evans' construction, which appears to be exactly as per plans. 03JMgusset.jpg is a photo of Jim Markle's construction, which incorporates the mitered spruce joints, and the gussets sitting inside the spruce lip. Both methods work equally well. It just seems that most of the photos out there on the net are of the mitered corner version, like Jim's, rather than the BHP plans version, like Walt's. Bill C. PS: anyone on the list that only gets the digest version (no attachments) can view the photos by going to the following site: http://forums.matronics.com/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=2ed4da73b54366540c0d90 5c0d06a3a6 -----Original Message----- From: Ryan Michals [mailto:aircamperace@yahoo.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2007 8:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Bill, Could you post an example pic of the "plans way" and the other way? It sounds confusing. Thank you, Ryan Michals NXxxxCC Clover Clipper ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:05 PM PST US From: "mmcfi@juno.com" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Would like to join your discussion group Hello all, I have a friend that put the crazy idea into my head that I should bu ild an airplane! Problem is that I cannot get rid of the thought. Luck ily I stumbled across the Air Camper and now I am nibbling.... I know you all probally get this all the time, but before I rush out and buy ev erything in sight that I might read about or stumble across, (possibly e nding my marriage), Where is a good place to start? I would love to see a Piet up close and make sure this is really what I want to do. If there are any in the Denver area I would love to talk to you and arrainge some time to see a Piet up close and let you set th e hook. If not, I can travel to you given some time. I am thinking I w ould like to build a 'long version' with a corvair engine. Thanks for any input. I have loved reading your posts for the last l ittle while and find them very informative. I am working through the ar chives slowly. Future Low and Slow Boy Mark P.S. Do you get bugs in your teeth flying the Piet? :) _____________________________________________________________ Discount Online Trading - Click Now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iiejgTb6M8m0KEZ9PuAr6Sx pms437CTymCfgUy9XNOAEpdAZQ/ ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:22 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Would like to join your discussion group I know you all probably get this all the time, but before I rush out and buy everything in sight that I might read about or stumble across, (possibly ending my marriage), Where is a good place to start? Tough question!....I would have to say wife and plane can be an oxymoron. Village idiot! __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:43 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet biplane From: "jimd" Hi, The biplane conversion doesn't change the top wing much, far as I can tell. The St. Croix/Aeriel plans essentially add a lower wing that attaches where the lift struts would, the low wing has ailerons that are actuated by rods from the high wings ailerons. Not positive without looking again, but I think the struts from the end of the lower wings to the upper ones attach at the same point as the lift struts normally would. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141840#141840 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/apietenpol_632.jpg ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:41 PM PST US From: "Skip Gadd" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Would like to join your discussion group Mark, Welcome to the list. Skip >P.S. Do you get bugs in your teeth flying the Piet? :) >Only if you smile ;o) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:02 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions From: "skellytownflyer" I understand the brads pulling loose on the wing wrap.I installed the .020 aluminum leading edge wrap I got from DJ on these wings after pre-bending them over a small pipe.And the still were really tough to get pulled down.I ended up using very small wood screws-#2 maybe? and a dab of wood glue on each one to keep them down.have the wings all ready to cover now and hoping to get back on the project in about a month.been a long busy summer.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=141849#141849 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:24:44 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Would like to join your discussion group Welcome Mark The first place to start is ordering a set of plans from Donald Pietenpol. You dont know what engine you are using yet, so get the supplement for the Corvair with the long fuselage plan. Also, order the three piece wing plan. The plans are fairly basic, sit down and digest them. Some would say to start by building wing ribs. I think your first parts should be the tail feathers to give you more to look at to start with. The parts to build them arent very expensive. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: mmcfi@juno.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 5:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Would like to join your discussion group Hello all, I have a friend that put the crazy idea into my head that I should build an airplane! Problem is that I cannot get rid of the thought. Luckily I stumbled across the Air Camper and now I am nibbling.... I know you all probally get this all the time, but before I rush out and buy everything in sight that I might read about or stumble across, (possibly ending my marriage), Where is a good place to start? I would love to see a Piet up close and make sure this is really what I want to do. If there are any in the Denver area I would love to talk to you and arrainge some time to see a Piet up close and let you set the hook. If not, I can travel to you given some time. I am thinking I would like to build a 'long version' with a corvair engine. Thanks for any input. I have loved reading your posts for the last little while and find them very informative. I am working through the archives slowly. Future Low and Slow Boy Mark P.S. Do you get bugs in your teeth flying the Piet? :) _____________________________________________________________ Discount Online Trading - Click Now! ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:37:33 PM PST US From: "Richard Baker" Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Pietenpol Builder I too am about to begin construction for the second time. I ordered plans last year and purchased all of the spruce from AS&S. I live in Oregon and Massachusetts, spending about half the year in each location. I was going to build in Oregon and had the spruce shipped there. The summer of 2006 found me building a million gussets and a jig for the wing ribs. It sure was a beauty (+-1/32=94.) I had also built a real nice rack to store all of the precut spruce. I was all ready to go this past summer. In our absence over last winter it seems that someone entered my workshop and made the nicest bookcase out of what was to be the main wing spar and decided that all those nice smaller pieces of wood would make ideal tinder for the wood stove. So, it=92s $1400, 00 down the tubes. The worst thing is that my jig is gone. I have just reordered more spruce to be shipped to Massachusetts. We live in a senior community and have a most wonderful workshop as many residents brought their workshops from home. I will post some pictures of the shop soon. I will continue to build anything that will fit in the Mooney out in Oregon and schlep parts across country. (Does anyone have plans for a 10 section wing?) So, I guess my first contribution to the builder community is to keep an eye on your wood! I am going to keep this batch under the bed and hope that Jane doesn=92t notice. Once I do get started in earnest I will post my builders log and photos on my web site at www.aerovisiontech.com Dick Baker www.aerovisiontech.com 10/24/2007 2:31 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.