---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 10/30/07: 15 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:13 AM - Re: Planer Question (Jack T. Textor) 2. 03:13 AM - Re: Planer Question (HelsperSew@aol.com) 3. 05:14 AM - Re: Stabilizer Gussets () 4. 06:46 AM - Re: Planer Question (Brian Kraut) 5. 06:53 AM - Re: Planer Question (Glenn Thomas) 6. 07:02 AM - Re: Planer Question (Glenn Thomas) 7. 07:10 AM - Re: Planer Question (del magsam) 8. 07:49 AM - Re: Planer Question (del magsam) 9. 10:26 AM - Re: Planer Question (Eric Williams) 10. 02:00 PM - Re: Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions (Barry Davis) 11. 03:33 PM - Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions (jimd) 12. 04:24 PM - Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson) 13. 05:37 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Gordon Bowen) 14. 07:20 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Rcaprd@aol.com) 15. 10:01 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:13:33 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question From: "Jack T. Textor" Hi Glenn, How have you been? I concur with all the other comments and have another thought. Wood has many forces that get unleashed after cutting. I had a beautiful piece of spruce 2"x8"x15', strait tight grain. About a week after ripping into 1 1/2" strips for my longerons, they warped so badly that I wasn't comfortable using them. I clamped them together hoping they would straighten out, but no luck. I guess my point is, rip them and see what you have, then go from there. Although it may be easier to purchase wood finished, I did get a lot of satisfaction milling it myself. Good luck! Jack Textor www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:12 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question Glenn, Your idea of using a "sled" is correct for getting the warp out of the boards by running it through the planer that way. I would recommend getting a planer. I have used mine many many times to make numerable parts. Also, I would recommend to anyone ordering the "bargain bag" of spruce that ACS and Wicks offers. Very cheap and you can get many smaller parts out of it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:14:50 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets From: I'm just given ya a hard time.I can't build anything and I envy you guys who can, no matter how long it takes ya! ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: October 25, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets Harvey, What do you think I've been doing for the past year and a half of not building??? If I start building any slower, I'll be taking things apart. just kidding... Actually, what happened was that when I first received my plans, I studied them, then started redrawing them using CAD (exactly as drawn by Orrin Hoopman). When the time came to start building again, I plotted out the drawing I had done a few years ago, and plopped it down on my building board, and used it to start cutting my parts. I was perfectly satisfied with my progress until I happened to look at a few photos of work done by others, and upon seeing differences compared to what I had done, I had a moment of panic. A quick check back to the plans revealed that all was okay - I was building to the plans - others had chosen to use a different technique. I guess my point was that photos of other's work can be very helpful, but they don't always show things the way they are in the plans - which is fine. In fact, quite often, the photos may show an improved method. As far as visual appearance goes, personally, I like the looks of the modified gusset attachment with mitered joints, but for ease of construction, the plans method is much easier. In the end, this beautiful woodwork all gets covered up anyway. Bill C ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of harvey.rule@bell.ca Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2007 7:15 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Stabilizer Gussets It might not be a bad idea to check the pictures and previous letters on this web page before you do anything in the future.It will slow things down but it will give you a better idea of what's been done before.Sort of like a highway in the sky. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:18 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question I have a long straight board with clamps on it that I use for making tapered spars. I also have a 10' long aluminum channel that I can clamp down to my saw to make an extra long rip fence. With a setup like that you can clamp a weird twisted piece of wood to the flat straight board and run it through the saw to get one side perfectly straight and flat. Put that side down through the planer and you will wind up with two parallel sides and can get the other two sides done on the table saw. You can get away without the long rip fence, but it makes it a lot easier for cutting long boards. I also clamp pieces of plywood on the bottom of the long fence and get nice long infeed and outfeed tables. It is hard to keep a long board flat on a short table and rip fence unless you have two people doing it. I love my planer and they are not that expensive. I made my son a very nice water bed using cheap Home Depot 2 X 8s and getting the sides smooth and flat on the planer. Some stain and varnish and it looks as good as expensive wood. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:10 AM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question Thanks everyone. I'm going for the planer this week. Dan captured the essence of my real question with the "sled". Didn't know if that is something any of you had ever tried, ...so I guess it's feasible. The only way I could think to get rid of a bow in the wood is to fix it to something long and straight and keep shaving off the bow, then flip and do the other side. Then perhaps put into the sled sideways and do the sides. should also work on twists if the board can be fixed in the sled. I'll let you know how it works. I can put a face to all but one of the group that responded and reflected upon some good times at Brodhead. Thanks again. Chris, you must go to Brodhead next year. ...your gallery is a fantastic source of ideas and information. Thanks On 10/30/07, HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: > > Glenn, > Your idea of using a "sled" is correct for getting the warp out of the > boards by running it through the planer that way. I would recommend getting > a planer. I have used mine many many times to make numerable parts. Also, I > would recommend to anyone ordering the "bargain bag" of spruce that ACS and > Wicks offers. Very cheap and you can get many smaller parts out of it. > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > ------------------------------ > -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:02:39 AM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question Thanks, I think I can pick up extruded square tubing at the place I have been buy steel from for pretty cheap. I'll try that. Looking forward to making chips again. It's been a while. Thanks On 10/30/07, Brian Kraut wrote: > > brian.kraut@engalt.com> > > I have a long straight board with clamps on it that I use for making > tapered > spars. I also have a 10' long aluminum channel that I can clamp down to > my > saw to make an extra long rip fence. With a setup like that you can clamp > a > weird twisted piece of wood to the flat straight board and run it through > the saw to get one side perfectly straight and flat. Put that side down > through the planer and you will wind up with two parallel sides and can > get > the other two sides done on the table saw. You can get away without the > long rip fence, but it makes it a lot easier for cutting long boards. I > also clamp pieces of plywood on the bottom of the long fence and get nice > long infeed and outfeed tables. It is hard to keep a long board flat on a > short table and rip fence unless you have two people doing it. > > I love my planer and they are not that expensive. I made my son a very > nice > water bed using cheap Home Depot 2 X 8s and getting the sides smooth and > flat on the planer. Some stain and varnish and it looks as good as > expensive wood. > > > Brian Kraut > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > www.engalt.com > > -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:10:08 AM PST US From: del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question I wouldn't do without a planer when building anything. I have a portable Delta planer. It achieves more things than just making 2 sides parrallel. The small carry around style planers run at much faster rpm than big planers and they use less hook angle on the cutting blades, leaving a finish on the wood that requires no further finish work. When you run all of your pieces of the same size thru it at the same setting (like all of the longerons), they are all precisely the same thickness, plus or minus a few thousandths. This helps big time when you cut all of your pieces to length with a power miter saw using a stop on a fence to achieve precise lengths that are within plus or minus a few thousandths. Think of the huge time savings doing this versus the old "cut it with a bandsaw and then sand it to the line" style of building. I plane the full board down to within 1/16 (.060) of the finish size, rip the pieces to 1/16 over the size that you want making sure that your table saw is set absolutely square, and then set the planer to run all of pieces through on one side before you adjust the planer down to plane the next side . taking off .030 per side to get the finished piece. I use a dial caliper to measure the thickness and you soon learn how much a half of a crank on the planer takes off. If you do too much planing after you rip your pieces, you start to loose squareness. If you do not do any sanding then your glue joints will be much stronger as well. Del Glenn Thomas wrote: I was thinking I could get by without a planer (as much as I've wanted to buy one) and thought of a reason I might be able to justify the purchase. I was recently given 4 rough-cut Sitka Spruce boards 2" x 6" x approx. 14'. I was hoping to use them for longerons but they have a bit of a warp in them. Would the wood still be usable if I were to cut it in to smaller pieces (suitable for tail feathers, compression struts, etc.) and clamp the smaller pieces into a perfectly straight jig that would hold them in a fixed position as I plane off any warpage by passing the whole piece in the jig through a planer? The pieces are not badly warped, just not perfect, and if I used them for small pieces, what I call warpage might even be acceptable for some folks without planing. I could just buy more spruce but I'm sure I'd find uses for the planer in the future. Has anybody heard of using a planer for this? Thanks -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142637#142637 Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:49:12 AM PST US From: del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question If your boards have such a slight bow that you could take it out with a "sled" then you are wasting your time, because when you get them cut down to size they are flexible anyway, or you will be cutting them into short enough pieces that the bow will not have any effect on anything. Del Glenn Thomas wrote: Thanks everyone. I'm going for the planer this week. Dan captured the essence of my real question with the "sled". Didn't know if that is something any of you had ever tried, ...so I guess it's feasible. The only way I could think to get rid of a bow in the wood is to fix it to something long and straight and keep shaving off the bow, then flip and do the other side. Then perhaps put into the sled sideways and do the sides. should also work on twists if the board can be fixed in the sled. I'll let you know how it works. I can put a face to all but one of the group that responded and reflected upon some good times at Brodhead. Thanks again. Chris, you must go to Brodhead next year. ...your gallery is a fantastic source of ideas and information. Thanks On 10/30/07, HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Glenn, Your idea of using a "sled" is correct for getting the warp out of the boards by running it through the planer that way. I would recommend getting a planer. I have used mine many many times to make numerable parts. Also, I would recommend to anyone ordering the "bargain bag" of spruce that ACS and Wicks offers. Very cheap and you can get many smaller parts out of it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. --------------------------------- -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:26:55 AM PST US From: Eric Williams Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question I'm thinking what you really need for this operation is a jointer. Read th is link: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-is-a-jointer-used-in-woodworking.htm Eric> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Planer Question> From: glennthomas@flyingwoo d.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 17:30:43 -0700> To: pietenpol-list@matronics. yingwood.com>> > I was thinking I could get by without a planer (as much as I've wanted to buy one) and thought of a reason I might be able to justify the purchase. I was recently given 4 rough-cut Sitka Spruce boards 2" x 6" x approx. 14'. I was hoping to use them for longerons but they have a bit of a warp in them. Would the wood still be usable if I were to cut it in to smaller pieces (suitable for tail feathers, compression struts, etc.) and clamp the smaller pieces into a perfectly straight jig that would hold them in a fixed position as I plane off any warpage by passing the whole piece in the jig through a planer? The pieces are not badly warped, just not perf ect, and if I used them for small pieces, what I call warpage might even be acceptable for some folks without planing. I could just buy more spruce bu t I'm sure I'd find uses for the planer in the future. Has anybody heard of using a planer for this?> > Thanks> > --------> Glenn Thomas> N?????> http ://www.flyingwood.com> > > > > Read this topic online here:> > http://forum =========> > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:00:35 PM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions To glue down the leading edge, try sanding the glue joint and using Liquid Nail.(make sure that you get it in place the first time) After all, the fabric will hold it down in place. Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 10:08 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions > > Thought of screws, however everything I read said don't use screws on > aircraft woodwork, rather to look at the brads/nails as temporary clamps > for holding while the glue drys. > > Didn't see glue for the leading edge that came loose, so I mentioned it. > > Does give me a chance to really clean out the area that will be enclosed > and get the dust out first, so its probably a good thing. > > Think I will put some kind of extra cloth tape over the brads to make the > covering cloth look better and make it less likely they will rise and look > ugly. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142489#142489 > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:33:30 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Grega GN-1 Biplane Questions From: "jimd" Thanks for the suggestion. I tried tapping the little brass brad/nails in and while it works they really didn't seem to hold all that well, so I am going to have to do something more than that to get them to stay put. Once that is done on the top wings they should be ready to be covered. Watched the Poly-Fiber video and read the book, wow its going to be fun. Have a lot of work ahead. The bottom wings need a front spar and leading edge then they will be ready to cover. Not sure how you deal with covering the wing walk part of the lower wing, but a forum of high wing plane people probably isn't the ideal place to ask. Think I will call the Poly-Fiber support line, had some other questions for them anyway. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=142832#142832 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:25 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. Any ideas on the pro's and con's of the different methods? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com 4:43 PM ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:27 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, I put in a slight toe-in. Theory--keep the gear from wanting to squat like a duck when landing hard or taxiing with heavy load. Used laser levels to sight out about 40 feet in front of edge of each wheel. Made the distance between outside edges of wheels very slightly more narrow at 40' (about 1/2inch) as compared to directly in front of the wheels. Set in about 0.25 degree toe-in, using thin washers. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 3:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. Any ideas on the pro's and con's of the different methods? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:47 PM PST US From: Rcaprd@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear In a message dated 10/30/2007 7:38:35 PM Central Daylight Time, gbowen@ptialaska.net writes: Peter, I put in a slight toe-in. Theory--keep the gear from wanting to squat like a duck when landing hard or taxiing with heavy load. Used laser levels to sight out about 40 feet in front of edge of each wheel. Made the distance between outside edges of wheels very slightly more narrow at 40' (about 1/2inch) as compared to directly in front of the wheels. Set in about 0.25 degree toe-in, using thin washers. Gordon Peter, I agree totally with Gordon and his reasons. Originally, my split axle gear had too much toe - in. It would splay the gear apart when pulling it backward, and pushing 'er forward you could feel the tires slipping. Early on in my test period, I was landing in a pretty nasty right crosswind, so I put down the upwind (right) gear on the ground first, and it very nearly groundlooped to the left, because that was the direction that wheel was pointing. That was the closest I've ever come to groundlooping my plane. If not for the excellent rudder authority of the Pietenpol, even at low speeds, the tail would surely have went on around. To fix the problem, I pulled one wheel at a time, and removed the wheel bearings and all grease. Tied the tail and gear off to the structure of the hanger, and heated up the lower vee of the gear with a Rosebud torch, while a helper slipped a 10 foot piece of pipe over the axle and bent it back till we ended up with just a very slight toe - in, all the while maintaining the camber angle. I've also modified the gear from bunji's to springs, and the gear has worked very well ever since. Close to 350 hrs on 'er now !! Chuck G. NX770CG ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 10:01:23 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Thanks Guys, I may put a bit of toe-in on mine. Cheers Peter _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rcaprd@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2007 1:20 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear In a message dated 10/30/2007 7:38:35 PM Central Daylight Time, gbowen@ptialaska.net writes: Peter, I put in a slight toe-in. Theory--keep the gear from wanting to squat like a duck when landing hard or taxiing with heavy load. Used laser levels to sight out about 40 feet in front of edge of each wheel. Made the distance between outside edges of wheels very slightly more narrow at 40' (about 1/2inch) as compared to directly in front of the wheels. Set in about 0.25 degree toe-in, using thin washers. Gordon Peter, I agree totally with Gordon and his reasons. Originally, my split axle gear had too much toe - in. It would splay the gear apart when pulling it backward, and pushing 'er forward you could feel the tires slipping. Early on in my test period, I was landing in a pretty nasty right crosswind, so I put down the upwind (right) gear on the ground first, and it very nearly groundlooped to the left, because that was the direction that wheel was pointing. That was the closest I've ever come to groundlooping my plane. If not for the excellent rudder authority of the Pietenpol, even at low speeds, the tail would surely have went on around. To fix the problem, I pulled one wheel at a time, and removed the wheel bearings and all grease. Tied the tail and gear off to the structure of the hanger, and heated up the lower vee of the gear with a Rosebud torch, while a helper slipped a 10 foot piece of pipe over the axle and bent it back till we ended up with just a very slight toe - in, all the while maintaining the camber angle. I've also modified the gear from bunji's to springs, and the gear has worked very well ever since. Close to 350 hrs on 'er now !! Chuck G. 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