Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 12:33 AM - November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! (Matt Dralle)
1. 12:19 AM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson)
2. 06:53 AM - Re: Landing Gear (hvandervoo@aol.com)
3. 07:15 AM - Re: Landing Gear (James)
4. 01:55 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson)
5. 05:38 PM - New Piet on the block (Skip Gadd)
6. 08:11 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson)
7. 08:12 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson)
8. 08:13 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson)
9. 08:45 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Brian Kraut)
Message 0
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| Subject: | November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! |
Dear Listers,
You've probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows or spam
from any of the List and Forum services at Matronics. These include, for example:
The Email List Postings - http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse
The Email List Forum Site - http://forums.matronics.com
The List Wiki - http://wiki.matronics.com
The List Search Engine - http://www.matronics.com/search
This is because I have always enjoyed a List experience that was completely about
the sport we enjoy - airplanes - and not about advertising!
But running a high performance, highly available service like this isn't free and
a fair amount of money in terms of computer upgrades, business-class Internet
connectivity, and electricity. Consequently, many similar sites turn to advertising
to support these costs. Advertising that you have to look at each and
every time you read an email message or browse the their web site.
Rather than subject my List community to another constant commercial bombardment,
I have chosen to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year in November to support
the continued operation and upgrade of the List services. It's solely through
the Contributions of List members that the Lists and Forums continue to be
possible!
During the month, I will be sending out a Fund Raiser reminder message every few
days and I ask for your patience and understanding during the month throughout
these regular messages. Think of them as PBS' Pledge Breaks... :-)
To minimize the impact of the Fund Raiser on the List community, I implemented
a new feature late last year specifically related to making Contributions. If
you are an Email List subscriber, once you make a Contribution using the online
web site, you will no longer receive the email from me regarding the Fund Raiser!
There are a couple of exceptions to this, however. If someone replies
to a Contribution message I've sent, you might receive that. Additionally, the
messages will always be posted to the Forums site. To a first order, however,
once you make a Contribution, you won't get my email messages about the Fund
Raiser for the rest of the month. For Contributions by check, the squelch
will take effect once the check is received.
There is a whole new line up of really great Contribution gifts this year! When
you make a qualifying Contribution, you can select one of the many free gifts
that are available during the Fund Raiser. These gifts are provided through
the generous support of a number of our industry's leading supporters including:
Bob Nuckolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com
Andy Gold - Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com
Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com
Please visit these guy's respective sites, as they have some great products to
offer and are generously supporting the Matronics List Fund Raiser.
You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this
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in order to list great selection of great gifts available so be sure to scroll
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Please make a List Support Contribution:
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I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous support! Your Contributions
truely keep this operation afloat!
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Forum Administrator
Message 1
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Clif,
I had a long conversation with the builder at our local SAAA National
Convention over the weekend. He was quite adamant that it should be toe
out
and not toe in. He runs a skate board wheel in his tail skid to protect
the
pavement on hard runways.
Bye the way, this particular Gere Sport has won our Concours d Elegance
and
has been Grand Champion for two years. A beautiful aircraft now sporting
a
Rotec radial on the front!
I=92ll try the toe-in first and see how it goes.
Cheers
Peter
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif
Dawson
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
I'm looking at the Gere in the 1933 Flying Manual. The landing gear is
is drawn and discussed in some detail but there is no mention at all
of toe in or out.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: HYPERLINK "mailto:vk3eka@bigpond.net.au"Peter W Johnson
"mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:18 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hans,
I=92m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant
about
toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be
the
same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is
changed.
Cheers
Peter.
_____
From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com"owner-pietenpol-list-se
rve
r@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On
Behalf
Of hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Peter,
In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in.
See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the
ground.
Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that
wheel
will control the direction in the first few seconds.
Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to
a
minimum
The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded
situation.
Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ?
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hi Guys,
Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing
gear
geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has
the
U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the
U/C
set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear
Pietenpol
(and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has
a
tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid.
Any ideas on the pro=92s and con=92s of the different methods?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/" \nhttp://www.cpc-world.com
Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
<HR HYPERLINK
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c
om/
Navigator?Pietenpol-List
the Web
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
===========
31/10/2007
4:38 PM
31/10/2007
4:38 PM
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Landing Gear |
Peter,
Because the hinge points are not parrallel (on the piet) at the fuselage the
re is=C2-a difference in Toe-in under load and no load.
No load condition is more Toe-in than at loaded, it is a small difference bu
t it is there.
Cheers
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hans,
=C2-
I=99m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adama
nt about toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this woul
d be the same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is
changed.
=C2-
Cheers
=C2-
Peter.
=C2-
=C2-
=C2-
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list
-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
=C2-
Peter,
In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in.
See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the ground
.
Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that wheel w
ill control the direction in the first few seconds.
Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to a m
inimum
The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded situ
ation.
Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ?
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hi Guys,
=C2-
Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear ge
ometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U
/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C
set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol
(and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a t
ailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid.
=C2-
Any ideas on the pro=99s and con=99s of the different methods?
=C2-
Cheers
=C2-
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
=C2-
=C2-
Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM
=C2-
=C2-
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
=C2-
size=2 width="100%" align=center>
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail!
=C2-
30/10/2007 6:26 PM
31/10/2007 4:38 PM
-= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum -
-= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse
-= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page,
-= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ,
-= Photoshare, and much much more:
-= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
-========================
-= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
-= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums!
-= --> http://forums.matronics.com
-========================
________________________________________________________________________
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://mail.aol.com
Message 3
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Toe out will cause a taildragger to dart back and forth like a drunken
squirrel! Even in a slight crosswind the wheels load and unload a
little
and toe out will cause the plane to dart back and forth.
Anyone recommending toe out either has not flown a properly set up
plane,
or likes to watch people sweat landings. A slight toe in will impart
directional stability. Straight is good also.
Jim T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Peter,
Because the hinge points are not parrallel (on the piet) at the fuselage
there is a difference in Toe-in under load and no load.
No load condition is more Toe-in than at loaded, it is a small
difference
but it is there.
Cheers
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hans,
I'm not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant
about
toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be
the
same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is
changed.
Cheers
Peter.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com?> ] On Behalf Of
hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Peter,
In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in.
See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the
ground.
Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that
wheel
will control the direction in the first few seconds.
Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to
a
minimum
The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded
situation.
Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ?
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hi Guys,
Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing
gear
geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has
the
U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the
U/C
set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear
Pietenpol
(and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has
a
tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid.
Any ideas on the pro's and con's of the different methods?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com <http://www.cpc-world.com/>
Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
_____
size=2 width="100%" align=center>
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci
d=A
OLAOF00020000000970> !
31/10/2007 4:38 PM
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
_____
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail
<http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci
d=A
OLAOF00020000000970> !
Message 4
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Hans,
Good point, I never thought of that.
Cheers
Peter.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Friday, 2 November 2007 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Peter,
Because the hinge points are not parrallel (on the piet) at the fuselage
there is a difference in Toe-in under load and no load.
No load condition is more Toe-in than at loaded, it is a small
difference
but it is there.
Cheers
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hans,
I=92m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant
about
toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be
the
same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is
changed.
Cheers
Peter.
_____
From: HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com"owner-pietenpol-list-se
rve
r@matronics.com [HYPERLINK
"mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com?"mailto:owner-pietenpol
-li
st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HYPERLINK
"mailto:hvandervoo@aol.com"hvandervoo@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM
"mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Peter,
In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in.
See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the
ground.
Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that
wheel
will control the direction in the first few seconds.
Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to
a
minimum
The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded
situation.
Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ?
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter W Johnson <HYPERLINK
"mailto:vk3eka@bigpond.net.au"vk3eka@bigpond.net.au>
"mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear
Hi Guys,
Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing
gear
geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has
the
U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the
U/C
set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear
Pietenpol
(and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has
a
tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid.
Any ideas on the pro=92s and con=92s of the different methods?
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/" \nhttp://www.cpc-world.com
Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM
target=_blank>HYPERLINK
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
\nhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
_____
size=2 width="100%" align=center>
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free HYPERLINK
"http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci
d=A
OLAOF00020000000970" \nAOL Mail!
31/10/2007 4:38 PM
target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
://forums.matronics.com
_____
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free HYPERLINK
"http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci
d=A
OLAOF00020000000970" \nAOL Mail!
"http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c
om/
Navigator?Pietenpol-List
"http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com
31/10/2007
4:38 PM
31/10/2007
4:38 PM
Message 5
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| Subject: | New Piet on the block |
The FAA came to our field yesterday and certified two new homebuilts. One was Dave
Stephens Corvair Piet. If you went to Brodhead 2005 you saw Dave's Piet as
a bare-bones fuselage. Now we have two Piets at Hales Landing and two more Piet
projects. Will try to send a picture next week.
Skip
skipgadd@earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Prop drawing |
Alright! I've tried three times to send this stuff and been
rejected as too large. I even cut the image size way down.
So here's the first installment.
Clif
Hello everyone!
I will carve a prop for a model A (maybe a 76 x42), but firstly I need
to find some drawings.
Santiago
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Prop drawing |
Part deux , Clif
Santiago
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Prop drawing |
Part last, Clif
Santiago
Message 9
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Very good information. I have been wanting something like that for a while.
If anyone has any references for higher horsepower prop design I would love
to have it.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clif Dawson
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:10 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing
Alright! I've tried three times to send this stuff and been
rejected as too large. I even cut the image size way down.
So here's the first installment.
Clif
Hello everyone!
I will carve a prop for a model A (maybe a 76 x42), but firstly I need
to find some drawings.
Santiago
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