---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 11/01/07: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 0. 12:33 AM - November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! (Matt Dralle) 1. 12:19 AM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson) 2. 06:53 AM - Re: Landing Gear (hvandervoo@aol.com) 3. 07:15 AM - Re: Landing Gear (James) 4. 01:55 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson) 5. 05:38 PM - New Piet on the block (Skip Gadd) 6. 08:11 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson) 7. 08:12 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson) 8. 08:13 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Clif Dawson) 9. 08:45 PM - Re: Prop drawing (Brian Kraut) ________________________________ Message 0 _____________________________________ Time: 12:33:49 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: November is Matronics Email List Fund Raiser Month! Dear Listers, You've probably noticed that there are no banner ads or pop-up windows or spam from any of the List and Forum services at Matronics. These include, for example: The Email List Postings - http://www.matronics.com/listbrowse The Email List Forum Site - http://forums.matronics.com The List Wiki - http://wiki.matronics.com The List Search Engine - http://www.matronics.com/search This is because I have always enjoyed a List experience that was completely about the sport we enjoy - airplanes - and not about advertising! But running a high performance, highly available service like this isn't free and a fair amount of money in terms of computer upgrades, business-class Internet connectivity, and electricity. Consequently, many similar sites turn to advertising to support these costs. Advertising that you have to look at each and every time you read an email message or browse the their web site. Rather than subject my List community to another constant commercial bombardment, I have chosen to hold a PBS-like fund raiser each year in November to support the continued operation and upgrade of the List services. It's solely through the Contributions of List members that the Lists and Forums continue to be possible! During the month, I will be sending out a Fund Raiser reminder message every few days and I ask for your patience and understanding during the month throughout these regular messages. Think of them as PBS' Pledge Breaks... :-) To minimize the impact of the Fund Raiser on the List community, I implemented a new feature late last year specifically related to making Contributions. If you are an Email List subscriber, once you make a Contribution using the online web site, you will no longer receive the email from me regarding the Fund Raiser! There are a couple of exceptions to this, however. If someone replies to a Contribution message I've sent, you might receive that. Additionally, the messages will always be posted to the Forums site. To a first order, however, once you make a Contribution, you won't get my email messages about the Fund Raiser for the rest of the month. For Contributions by check, the squelch will take effect once the check is received. There is a whole new line up of really great Contribution gifts this year! When you make a qualifying Contribution, you can select one of the many free gifts that are available during the Fund Raiser. These gifts are provided through the generous support of a number of our industry's leading supporters including: Bob Nuckolls - AeroElectric - http://www.aeroelectric.com Andy Gold - Builder's Bookstore - http://www.buildersbooks.com Jon Croke - HomebuiltHELP - http://www.homebuilthelp.com Please visit these guy's respective sites, as they have some great products to offer and are generously supporting the Matronics List Fund Raiser. You can make your List Contribution using any one of three secure methods this year including using a credit card, PayPal, or by personal check. From the Contribution site, you can select any one of this year's free gifts with a qualifying Contribution amount. The Contribution page is pretty loooonnnnng this year in order to list great selection of great gifts available so be sure to scroll all the way to the bottom of the web page to see everything that's available! Please make a List Support Contribution: http://www.matronics.com/contribution I would like to thank everyone in advance for their generous support! Your Contributions truely keep this operation afloat! Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Forum Administrator ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:19:22 AM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Clif, I had a long conversation with the builder at our local SAAA National Convention over the weekend. He was quite adamant that it should be toe out and not toe in. He runs a skate board wheel in his tail skid to protect the pavement on hard runways. Bye the way, this particular Gere Sport has won our Concours d Elegance and has been Grand Champion for two years. A beautiful aircraft now sporting a Rotec radial on the front! I=92ll try the toe-in first and see how it goes. Cheers Peter _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear I'm looking at the Gere in the 1933 Flying Manual. The landing gear is is drawn and discussed in some detail but there is no mention at all of toe in or out. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:vk3eka@bigpond.net.au"Peter W Johnson "mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2007 10:18 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hans, I=92m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant about toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be the same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is changed. Cheers Peter. _____ From: HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com"owner-pietenpol-list-se rve r@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in. See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the ground. Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that wheel will control the direction in the first few seconds. Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to a minimum The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded situation. Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ? Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. Any ideas on the pro=92s and con=92s of the different methods? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/" \nhttp://www.cpc-world.com Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com
Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hans, =C2- I=99m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adama nt about toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this woul d be the same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is changed. =C2- Cheers =C2- Peter. =C2- =C2- =C2- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list -server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear =C2- Peter, In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in. See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the ground .. Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that wheel w ill control the direction in the first few seconds. Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to a m inimum The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded situ ation. Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ? Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, =C2- Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear ge ometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U /C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a t ailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. =C2- Any ideas on the pro=99s and con=99s of the different methods? =C2- Cheers =C2- Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com =C2- =C2- Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM =C2- =C2- target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com =C2- size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! =C2- 30/10/2007 6:26 PM 31/10/2007 4:38 PM -= - The Pietenpol-List Email Forum - -= Use the Matronics List Features Navigator to browse -= the many List utilities such as the Subscriptions page, -= Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, -= Photoshare, and much much more: -= --> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List -======================== -= - NEW MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - -= Same great content now also available via the Web Forums! -= --> http://forums.matronics.com -======================== ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http ://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:15:35 AM PST US From: "James" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Toe out will cause a taildragger to dart back and forth like a drunken squirrel! Even in a slight crosswind the wheels load and unload a little and toe out will cause the plane to dart back and forth. Anyone recommending toe out either has not flown a properly set up plane, or likes to watch people sweat landings. A slight toe in will impart directional stability. Straight is good also. Jim T. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, Because the hinge points are not parrallel (on the piet) at the fuselage there is a difference in Toe-in under load and no load. No load condition is more Toe-in than at loaded, it is a small difference but it is there. Cheers Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hans, I'm not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant about toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be the same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is changed. Cheers Peter. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in. See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the ground. Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that wheel will control the direction in the first few seconds. Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to a minimum The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded situation. Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ? Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. Any ideas on the pro's and con's of the different methods? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! 31/10/2007 4:38 PM target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail ! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:55:04 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hans, Good point, I never thought of that. Cheers Peter. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Friday, 2 November 2007 12:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, Because the hinge points are not parrallel (on the piet) at the fuselage there is a difference in Toe-in under load and no load. No load condition is more Toe-in than at loaded, it is a small difference but it is there. Cheers Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson Sent: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:18 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hans, I=92m not too sure of the geometry on a Gere but the builder was adamant about toe out. I think it is fixed whether loaded or not. Again this would be the same as the Piet. It should only change the camber when the load is changed. Cheers Peter. _____ From: HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com"owner-pietenpol-list-se rve r@matronics.com [HYPERLINK "mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com?"mailto:owner-pietenpol -li st-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HYPERLINK "mailto:hvandervoo@aol.com"hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 1:03 AM "mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Peter, In my opinion you should have a slight toe-in. See attached drawing for explanation, this assumes both wheels on the ground. Of course during a crosswind touchdown one wing will be low and that wheel will control the direction in the first few seconds. Thus too much Toe in could be bad in this few seconds, so keep toe-in to a minimum The only reason I see that some airplanes have toe-out is in a unloaded situation. Does the Gere Biplane have toe-out at gross load ? Hans -----Original Message----- From: Peter W Johnson "mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com"pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 6:23 pm Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Hi Guys, Some discussion in my hangar has rasied some questions about landing gear geometry. Our local crop duster pilot flies a Cessna 188 AgWagon and has the U/C set with toe in. I was talking to a Gere Biplane builder who has the U/C set with toe out (about 2 degrees overall). With the straight gear Pietenpol (and mine with J3 type gear) there is no toe in or out. The Agwagon has a tailwheel whilst the Gere has a tail skid. Any ideas on the pro=92s and con=92s of the different methods? Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/" \nhttp://www.cpc-world.com Release Date: 9/10/2007 4:43 PM target=_blank>HYPERLINK "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" \nhttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free HYPERLINK "http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci d=A OLAOF00020000000970" \nAOL Mail! 31/10/2007 4:38 PM target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ://forums.matronics.com _____ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free HYPERLINK "http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci d=A OLAOF00020000000970" \nAOL Mail! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 31/10/2007 4:38 PM 31/10/2007 4:38 PM ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:38:59 PM PST US From: "Skip Gadd" Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Piet on the block The FAA came to our field yesterday and certified two new homebuilts. One was Dave Stephens Corvair Piet. If you went to Brodhead 2005 you saw Dave's Piet as a bare-bones fuselage. Now we have two Piets at Hales Landing and two more Piet projects. Will try to send a picture next week. Skip skipgadd@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:12 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing Alright! I've tried three times to send this stuff and been rejected as too large. I even cut the image size way down. So here's the first installment. Clif Hello everyone! I will carve a prop for a model A (maybe a 76 x42), but firstly I need to find some drawings. Santiago ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:35 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing Part deux , Clif Santiago ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:55 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing Part last, Clif Santiago ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:11 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing Very good information. I have been wanting something like that for a while. If anyone has any references for higher horsepower prop design I would love to have it. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 11:10 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Prop drawing Alright! I've tried three times to send this stuff and been rejected as too large. I even cut the image size way down. So here's the first installment. Clif Hello everyone! I will carve a prop for a model A (maybe a 76 x42), but firstly I need to find some drawings. 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