---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 11/02/07: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:36 AM - Re: Landing Gear (Bill Church) 2. 08:12 AM - Re: New Piet on the block (Barry Davis) 3. 08:12 AM - Varnishing ribs (Tim Willis) 4. 08:36 AM - Re: Varnishing ribs (Steve Eldredge) 5. 08:45 AM - Re: Varnishing ribs (Phillips, Jack) 6. 08:51 AM - Re: Varnishing ribs (Isablcorky@aol.com) 7. 08:55 AM - Re: Varnishing ribs (Brian Kraut) 8. 09:37 AM - Re: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs (Brian Kraut) 9. 10:25 AM - Re: Landing Gear (hvandervoo@aol.com) 10. 02:47 PM - Re: Varnishing ribs (walt evans) 11. 03:07 PM - Re: Landing Gear (Peter W Johnson) 12. 03:16 PM - Re: Re: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs (walt evans) 13. 05:47 PM - Re: Re: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs (Ryan Mueller) 14. 07:32 PM - Re: New Piet on the block (Rick Holland) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:48 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear From: "Bill Church" About a year ago, Paul Poberezny announced that the magazine published by the Sport Aviation Association, "To Fly" was ceasing publication. At that time they offered all the left-over back issues at very low prices. I ordered a full set of whatever they had left. I wish I had been aware of this magazine earlier. It was a really good magazine. Now, unfortunately, even the SAA is disbanded. Anyway, last night I was flipping through one of the back issues (Summer 2005) and I came across an article that caught my eye (based on recent discussions here on the List). Up until last night I was convinced by Hans' explanation as to why Toe-in was the preferred set-up. Well, just to throw another wrench in the works (or in Peter's case, spanner), here's another view on the matter of Toe-in/Toe-out. (see attached files). When I scanned the pages, the images would not reproduce correctly (too dark) so I got out the scissors and cut out the parts I needed, and glued them to some white paper, and re-drew the lines and arrows, and pasted the new illustration over the original. I sure am glad I'll be building the straight-axle landing gear, so I won't have to try to figure this one out. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:50 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Piet on the block Hey Skip, Looks like ya'll are starting a Piet Haven. This may be good enough for a flight up there one Saturday Barry Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: Skip Gadd To: pietenpol-list Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New Piet on the block The FAA came to our field yesterday and certified two new homebuilts. One was Dave Stephens Corvair Piet. If you went to Brodhead 2005 you saw Dave's Piet as a bare-bones fuselage. Now we have two Piets at Hales Landing and two more Piet projects. Will try to send a picture next week. Skip skipgadd@earthlink.net EarthLink Revolves Around You. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:12:56 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:36:33 AM PST US From: Steve Eldredge Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Good plan. When they are dry epoxy coat only the fabric contact points. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:45:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs From: "Phillips, Jack" Tim, Varnishing options will generate nearly as many opinions as will what glue to use, or if Douglas Fir is better or worse than Sitka Spruce. Having said that, I'll offer a few opinions: 1. The need for epoxy varnish on the rib caps depends largely on what you are going to use to cover. If you are using Stits' PolyFiber's process, I would at least recommend that you try some test pieces with whatever polyurethane varnish you are planning to use and paint over that with some polytak and polybrush to make sure they won't lift your varnish. If using dope, this may not be a problem. 2. I would not glue the ribs to the spars (therefore, I would not try to mask off any part of the ribs). A small nail through the upright into the spar, or through the capstrips into the spar (not preferred by the FAA, but that's what I did) will hold the rib in place but allow some flexing when you trammel the wing to get everything square. If you glue the ribs in place, trammeling will be more difficult, and if you can't get the wing absolutely square, it will be very difficult to rig the plane to fly straight. 3. I used epoxy varnish on everything in my Pietenpol. If you do, it is best to thin the first coat about 50% with reducer to get good penetration into the wood grain. Then go with full strength varnish for the second coat. Polyurethane is probably fine - lot's of Piets have been built with it and it is certainly cheaper, but epoxy varnish is nearly bulletproof and offers maximum protection for those parts of your plane that can never be inspected once assembled. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs --> I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:24 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Before you varnish any ribs there is another operation which I failed to tell you concerning the wing ribs. Along the lower cap strip ( bottom) at each cluster and gusset there is a possibility of the gathering of moisture whether it be from wet weather while flying on instruments or possibly condensation while parked. On 41CC I drilled a small hole on either side for drainage.( 1/8 drill ) at the lowest point. I at one time I was a small boat sailor and builder, Snipe, Thistle and Lightning. Dry wood was a must. Drill, sand and then varnish with a brush. Dipping is like trying to wash a plate from eggs by running cold water on it. You'll get the high spots but the cavities will not be coated. My 10 sense. Corky ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:55:02 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Any particular reason not to just use an epoxy varnish everywhere? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Eldredge Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:35 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Good plan. When they are dry epoxy coat only the fabric contact points. Steve E. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:37:18 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs I had thought about weather the correct method was gluing the ribs or nailing them a while ago. My thinking was that if you glue them and sometime in the future you need to replace a spar you will have one hell of a job in front of you salvaging all the ribs. Obviously, gluing the ribs makes the rib attachment much stronger, but I don't know that you necessarily need the strength there and it is pretty common to nail metal ribs to wood spars. What is the norm here, glue or nails? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Tim, Varnishing options will generate nearly as many opinions as will what glue to use, or if Douglas Fir is better or worse than Sitka Spruce. Having said that, I'll offer a few opinions: 2. I would not glue the ribs to the spars (therefore, I would not try to mask off any part of the ribs). A small nail through the upright into the spar, or through the capstrips into the spar (not preferred by the FAA, but that's what I did) will hold the rib in place but allow some flexing when you trammel the wing to get everything square. If you glue the ribs in place, trammeling will be more difficult, and if you can't get the wing absolutely square, it will be very difficult to rig the plane to fly straight. plane that can never be inspected once assembled. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs --> I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:25:03 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear From: hvandervoo@aol.com Bill, Interesting reading specially about the Luscombe and the Cessna perhaps that proves my point and not the writers:-) Cessnas are notorious for easy ground handling. A lot of ground loop problems have more to do with the CG distance from the wheels, the longer the distance the higher the chance for a ground loop I do fly my Piet with a slight Toe in and yet have to experience any ground loop tendency Another aircraft with Toe in: http://www.extraaircraft.com/Tech-Manuals/MM300200/CH32.pdf Hans -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 9:35 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear About a year ago, Paul Poberezny announced that the magazine published by the Sport Aviation Association,?"To Fly" was ceasing publication. At that time they offered all the left-over back issues at very low prices. I ordered a full set of whatever they had left. I wish I had been aware of this magazine earlier. It was a really good magazine. Now, unfortunately, even the SAA is disbanded. Anyway, last night I was flipping through one of the back issues (Summer 2005) and I came across an article that caught my eye (based on recent discussions here on the List). Up until last night I was convinced by Hans' explanation as to why Toe-in was the preferred set-up. Well, just to throw another wrench?in the works (or in Peter's case, spanner), here's another view on the matter of Toe-in/Toe-out. (see attached files). ? When I scanned the pages, the images would not reproduce correctly (too dark) so I got out the scissors and cut out the parts I needed, and glued them to some white paper, and?re-drew the lines and arrows, and pasted the new illustration over the original.? ? I sure am glad I'll be building the straight-axle landing gear, so I won't have to try to figure this one out. ? ? Bill C. ________________________________________________________________________ Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:06 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Brian, Just that it's quite a regimin to mix the epoxy and go thru the rest period and then varnish. I found that the best time to varnish was on one of those days where you weren't sure what you wanted to work on, so you went to the "Airplane Factory" to do busy work. Varnishing is the best busy work,,,,,you can do it and think about other stuff that you look around at. In my opinion,,,you only need epoxy varnish where the fabric will be attaching. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kraut" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs > > > Any particular reason not to just use an epoxy varnish everywhere? > > Brian Kraut > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > www.engalt.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve > Eldredge > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:35 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs > > > > Good plan. When they are dry epoxy coat only the fabric contact points. > > Steve E. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 9:13 AM > To: matronics piet site > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs > > > > I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to > optimize > the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. > > My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat > of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I > have > read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue > to > the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of > the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the > fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. > > I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I > would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). > I > am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue > masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach > surfaces. > > However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and > bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them > with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would > this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead > epoxy > varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape > before > they go in the tank? > > What have you done, and what would you suggest? > > Tim in central TX > > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:07:45 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Now I=92m totally confused. Perhaps dead straight is best after all. Peter. Wonthaggi Australia HYPERLINK "http://www.cpc-world.com/"http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of hvandervoo@aol.com Sent: Saturday, 3 November 2007 4:24 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear Bill, Interesting reading specially about the Luscombe and the Cessna perhaps that proves my point and not the writers:-) Cessnas are notorious for easy ground handling. A lot of ground loop problems have more to do with the CG distance from the wheels, the longer the distance the higher the chance for a ground loop I do fly my Piet with a slight Toe in and yet have to experience any ground loop tendency Another aircraft with Toe in: HYPERLINK "http://www.extraaircraft.com/Tech-Manuals/MM300200/CH32.pdf"http://www.e xtr aaircraft.com/Tech-Manuals/MM300200/CH32.pdf Hans -----Original Message----- From: Bill Church Sent: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 9:35 am Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing Gear About a year ago, Paul Poberezny announced that the magazine published by the Sport Aviation Association, "To Fly" was ceasing publication. At that time they offered all the left-over back issues at very low prices. I ordered a full set of whatever they had left. I wish I had been aware of this magazine earlier. It was a really good magazine. Now, unfortunately, even the SAA is disbanded. Anyway, last night I was flipping through one of the back issues (Summer 2005) and I came across an article that caught my eye (based on recent discussions here on the List). Up until last night I was convinced by Hans' explanation as to why Toe-in was the preferred set-up. Well, just to throw another wrench in the works (or in Peter's case, spanner), here's another view on the matter of Toe-in/Toe-out. (see attached files). When I scanned the pages, the images would not reproduce correctly (too dark) so I got out the scissors and cut out the parts I needed, and glued them to some white paper, and re-drew the lines and arrows, and pasted the new illustration over the original. I sure am glad I'll be building the straight-axle landing gear, so I won't have to try to figure this one out. Bill C. _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free HYPERLINK "http://o.aolcdn.com/cdn.webmail.aol.com/mailtour/aol/en-us/index.htm?nci d=A OLAOF00020000000970" \nAOL Mail! "http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"http://www.matronics.c om/ Navigator?Pietenpol-List "http://forums.matronics.com"http://forums.matronics.com 1/11/2007 6:47 PM 1/11/2007 6:47 PM ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:50 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs Brian, Sorry, but never building my Piet did I worry about the day I'd have to replace a spar. Nailed pieces move,,,best to glue everything. Remember to Trammel the wings. Walt Evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Kraut" Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 12:35 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: RE: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs > > > I had thought about weather the correct method was gluing the ribs or > nailing them a while ago. My thinking was that if you glue them and > sometime in the future you need to replace a spar you will have one hell > of > a job in front of you salvaging all the ribs. Obviously, gluing the ribs > makes the rib attachment much stronger, but I don't know that you > necessarily need the strength there and it is pretty common to nail metal > ribs to wood spars. What is the norm here, glue or nails? > > Brian Kraut > Engineering Alternatives, Inc. > www.engalt.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips, > Jack > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:45 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs > > > > > Tim, > > Varnishing options will generate nearly as many opinions as will what > glue to use, or if Douglas Fir is better or worse than Sitka Spruce. > Having said that, I'll offer a few opinions: > > 2. I would not glue the ribs to the spars (therefore, I would not try > to mask off any part of the ribs). A small nail through the upright > into the spar, or through the capstrips into the spar (not preferred by > the FAA, but that's what I did) will hold the rib in place but allow > some flexing when you trammel the wing to get everything square. If you > glue the ribs in place, trammeling will be more difficult, and if you > can't get the wing absolutely square, it will be very difficult to rig > the plane to fly straight. > plane that can never be inspected once assembled. > > Good luck, > > Jack Phillips > NX899JP > Raleigh, NC > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim > Willis > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:13 AM > To: matronics piet site > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs > > --> > > I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to > optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished > product. > > My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single > coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I > believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of > the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top > and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have > epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish > there. > > I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as > I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end > ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare > with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on > the spar-attach surfaces. > > However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and > bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them > with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? > Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I > instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them > with tape before they go in the tank? > > What have you done, and what would you suggest? > > Tim in central TX > > > _________________________________________________ > > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please > notify the sender > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - > Norsk - Portuguese > > > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:24 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: RE: gluing ribs to spars/was: Varnishing ribs An excerpt from a Tony Bingelis article found on page 90 of the book "EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood" states: --------------------- How Do You Attach The Ribs To The Spars? One piece wing ribs are simply slipped onto the spars to previously marked locations and nailed and glued into place. The rib openings for the spars must not be a press fit. Allow .010" to .015" tolerance for glue and the swelling of the wood from the moist glue. Do not drive nails through the top or bottom capstrip when attaching the wing ribs to the spar. The proper attachment is always by means of glue, using cement coated or brass aircraft nails driven through the rib upright member, on each side of the spar. A couple of nails through each upright should do the job. ------------------------------ That's the only reference material I can find at the moment. I flipped through AC 43.13 briefly, but if it's in there I didn't see it. I would think Tony B is a good source though. Hope that helps, Ryan I had thought about weather the correct method was gluing the ribs or nailing them a while ago. My thinking was that if you glue them and sometime in the future you need to replace a spar you will have one hell of a job in front of you salvaging all the ribs. Obviously, gluing the ribs makes the rib attachment much stronger, but I don't know that you necessarily need the strength there and it is pretty common to nail metal ribs to wood spars. What is the norm here, glue or nails? Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:45 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs Tim, Varnishing options will generate nearly as many opinions as will what glue to use, or if Douglas Fir is better or worse than Sitka Spruce. Having said that, I'll offer a few opinions: 2. I would not glue the ribs to the spars (therefore, I would not try to mask off any part of the ribs). A small nail through the upright into the spar, or through the capstrips into the spar (not preferred by the FAA, but that's what I did) will hold the rib in place but allow some flexing when you trammel the wing to get everything square. If you glue the ribs in place, trammeling will be more difficult, and if you can't get the wing absolutely square, it will be very difficult to rig the plane to fly straight. plane that can never be inspected once assembled. Good luck, Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing ribs --> I am about to varnish ribs, and need some guidance. I am trying to optimize the process, avoid making a mess, and get the best finished product. My plan is to built a temporary tank and immerse each rib in a single coat of polyurethane varnish, thinned with turpentine. However, I believe I have read on this site that we need to have the portions of the ribs that glue to the spars bare for best adhesion, and that the top and bottom surfaces of the ribs-- where the fabric goes-- should have epoxy varnish, so that the fabric "dope" does not melt the varnish there. I think that since the ribs are entirely covered, a single coat such as I would get from the dip would be enough varnish (except on the end ribs). I am wondering if covering the surfaces I want to leave bare with 3M blue masking tape will work well. That is what I plan to do on the spar-attach surfaces. However, I am also wondering if I could go ahead and coat the tops and bottom surfaces of the ribs with this first coat, then go back over them with a brushed-on second coat of epoxy varnish. Is this workable? Would this require sanding between coats to make it stick? Should I instead epoxy varnish the top and bottom surfaces first, then cover them with tape before they go in the tank? What have you done, and what would you suggest? Tim in central TX _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:32:36 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Piet on the block Or Piet Heaven. Soon you will have more Piets than Broadhead. I am jealous, would love to find an air park as nice are yours one of these days. Rick On 11/2/07, Barry Davis wrote: > > Hey Skip, Looks like ya'll are starting a Piet Haven. This may be good > enough for a flight up there one Saturday > Barry Davis > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Skip Gadd > *To:* pietenpol-list > *Sent:* Thursday, November 01, 2007 8:38 PM > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: New Piet on the block > > The FAA came to our field yesterday and certified two new homebuilts. One > was Dave Stephens Corvair Piet. If you went to Brodhead 2005 you saw Dave's > Piet as a bare-bones fuselage. Now we have two Piets at Hales Landing and > two more Piet projects. Will try to send a picture next week. > Skip > > > skipgadd@earthlink.net > EarthLink Revolves Around You. > > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > * > > * > > > * > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. 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