Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:59 AM - Re: wood struts (Ed G.)
2. 06:50 AM - Re: wood struts (Isablcorky@aol.com)
3. 08:34 AM - Re: A-75 price (Steve Ruse)
4. 01:28 PM - Re: wood struts (carson)
5. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Jim Markle)
6. 02:44 PM - Re: wood struts (Clif Dawson)
7. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Ben Charvet)
8. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Isablcorky@aol.com)
9. 02:58 PM - fabric over aluminum (skellytownflyer)
10. 03:51 PM - Tailwheel mount (Ryan Michals)
11. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Dick Navratil)
12. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net)
13. 05:53 PM - Re: A-75 price (T White)
14. 05:56 PM - Flighttime Radio Show (Brian Kraut)
15. 06:45 PM - A-75 price (Oscar Zuniga)
16. 06:46 PM - cooling eyebrows (Oscar Zuniga)
17. 06:58 PM - radio effectiveness (Oscar Zuniga)
18. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (AmsafetyC@aol.com)
19. 08:51 PM - Re: wood struts (carson)
20. 09:22 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Jim Markle)
Message 1
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Hi Carson..I see no one has answered your post so I guess I'll chime in
and maybe it will stir up some other interest. I didn't answer at first
because I have no real experience with wood struts, But...I have seen
Allan Wise's Piet at Sun N Fun many times and checked out his wooden
struts carefully mainly out of amazement that anyone would do such a
thing. His Piet was built in the early sixties and from what I hear has
a ton of flying hours on it ( I could swear it was like 1600 hrs). The
struts looked to be made of ash, oval shaped and lamenated with a top
and a bottom piece and a thin strip of darker wood down the center,
front and rear. I believe the darker wood is a filler strip on each side
of a steel strip which is lamenated into the struts to take the tension
loads. After learning about the steel strip they make a lot more sence.
Allans were varnished and even though they were very old and darkened
from age they were very nice looking. Hope this is of some help. Ed G.
----- Original Message -----
From: carson<mailto:carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com<mailto:pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts
<carsonvella@yahoo.com.au<mailto:carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>>
Hi everyone hope you all have had a great christmas and newyear.
I have seen a few pic's of Piets with wood flying and cabane struts.
Does anyone have any tips or ideas on these, timber to use, building
method etc?
I did find a builders log a few months back and the gentleman was
making laminated struts but I never saved it and cant find it again so
if anyone knows the site could you please post the link.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156099#156099<http://forums
matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156099#156099>
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List<http://www.matronics.co
m/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution<http://www.matronics.com/contributi
on>
Message 2
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Here I go butting in on the conversation again. During Brodhead 2000, our
first, I was impressed with a Piet from Ohio with wooden struts. Did not record
the owners name. Was painted red and white or maybe cream, straight axle
with motorcycle wheels and brakes to include the brake activators right up to
the instrument panel. SIMPLICITY. The struts, if I remember, were 3/4 by about
3
laminated of 3 1/4 pieces. Two spruce outside with 1/4 marine plywood in the
center, I think. It was Ford powered. The beauty of it all was SIMPLICITY
Corky in warm Louisiana, 75 today
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 3
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My two cents: The biggest two factors here are:
1) What parts were used in the overhaul?
Was the engine returned to factory new, or just within acceptable
tolerances? Does it have factory new cylinders, or older overhauled
cylinders that were repaired for $200? Can any documentation be
provided for all the new parts? I can't imagine overhauling an engine
for no reason and NOT keeping every single sheet of paper indicating
anything that was done to the engine.
2) How was the engine stored?
Was it properly oiled and sealed (pickled)? Was it in a humid
environment? Does it have any rust anywhere (cylinders, cam, etc)?
Depending on how it was stored, it could either be a great, ready to go
engine or it could need $2,000 in parts. Make sure you know which
before you buy it.
Depending on those factors, I would say a price range of $3,000 to
$8,000 could be reasonable. I know that is a huge range. If it has no
documentation, I would say it is near the bottom of that range. You'll
need to verify some of what you've been told about that engine. On the
other hand, if everything is well documented, and if the engine was
stored properly, and it has a lot of factory new parts (cylinders, mags,
etc.), then it is probably closer to the high end.
Steve Ruse
----- Original Message -----
From: T White
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price
I'm currently building a Pietenpol. A friend has a Continental A-75
for sale. He was told, when purchased several years ago, it was just
overhauled with 2 to 3 hours test stand time on it. Four years ago he
mounted it and ran it for approx 20 minutes with no problems. It has
since sat in his hangar. It is complete with mags (Eisenman?),
carburetor, oil tank, etc. He has not yet given me a price. What would
be a reasonable price range for this engine? Being new to homebuilding
any other advice concerning this engine is appreciated.
Tim White
Message 4
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Thanks for the replies guys
Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape also
do you have any pic's?
It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great looking
cabanes.
Anymore discussion would be great.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413
Message 5
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Thanks Carson...
I saw a sketch of a lift strut several years ago that had a flat bar
(probably .090 by 1"wide or so) laminated inside a wood strut. Not sure if
it was Allan's or maybe Wil Graff's (the plane Corky was probably referring
to in an earlier post). Wils's piet is beautiful. Seems like adding a
steel strip would make it pretty heavy. Now that I think about it, maybe
some carbon fiber or kevlar laminated in there might provide the same
strength.
I think Allan told me he had 3000 hours on his Piet. Maybe it was 2000
hrs....whatever, it was wild. Allan is one of the most interesting people.
Attached is a picture of an all wood lift strut. I have no idea where I got
it (I'm probably violating some copyright law by forwarding it) but it looks
like it's all wood.
jm
----- Original Message -----
From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
> Thanks for the replies guys
> Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape
> also do you have any pic's?
> It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great
> looking cabanes.
> Anymore discussion would be great.
> Thanks
> Carson
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413
>
>
>
Message 6
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The rest of the airplane is made of wood, INCLUDING the spars.
Spruce has a tensile strength of 6700 lb/square inch.
For the sake of argument lets say a strut is 1" X 3 1/2". With
streamlining
the area should be 2/3 of the square area, or 2.3 square inch.
There are four struts or 5.2 square inches. Thats 34840 lbs( yes I know
that
the front ones take the majority of the load) .Dividing on the assuption
of equal load on a 1200 lb AC we get 29 g! How much less if properly
calculated?
25 g? 20 g? Is this adequate?
There's a bolt at each end. The strength here is based on how much force
required
to pull a plug of wood out by the bolt. That plug has two faces, the
square
area of which is the width of the strut times the distance from the end
to the bolt.
If the strut is 1" thick and the bolt is 1" from the end then you have
two faces
each 1" square or two square inches. The "shear parallel to the grain"
is 1120 lb
per square inch. So we have a strength here of 2240 lb. Four struts so
thats a
total of 8960 lb. That's still over 7 g. If we added another such bolt
we have 14 g
capacity. Taking into account the higher front strut stress I'd bet we
still have
at least 10 g to play with.
And this is for plain, solid spruce, no plywood, no laminated straps or
embedded
tubing or anything else to complicate matters.
You can add a little more strength by using Western Hemlock or Doug Fir
but not
much. Fir splits much too easily for one thing. Ash? That's a lot of
extra weight for
no usefull gain. The main advantage of Ash is shock resistance, as in a
baseball
bat or properly made tool handle.
The way to go is to use the short, wraparound bracketing as on the
Quebec Goose.
There are many earlier manufactured planes that used spruce strutting.
Some are
still around. A few are still flying even.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Ed G.
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:56 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood struts
Hi Carson..I see no one has answered your post so I guess I'll chime
in and maybe it will stir up some other interest. I didn't answer at
first because I have no real experience with wood struts, But...I have
seen Allan Wise's Piet at Sun N Fun many times and checked out his
wooden struts carefully mainly out of amazement that anyone would do
such a thing. His Piet was built in the early sixties and from what I
hear has a ton of flying hours on it ( I could swear it was like 1600
hrs). The struts looked to be made of ash, oval shaped and lamenated
with a top and a bottom piece and a thin strip of darker wood down the
center, front and rear. I believe the darker wood is a filler strip on
each side of a steel strip which is lamenated into the struts to take
the tension loads. After learning about the steel strip they make a lot
more sence. Allans were varnished and even though they were very old and
darkened from age they were very nice looking. Hope this is of some
help. Ed G.
----- Original Message -----
From: carson
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:53 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts
<carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
Hi everyone hope you all have had a great christmas and newyear.
I have seen a few pic's of Piets with wood flying and cabane struts.
Does anyone have any tips or ideas on these, timber to use, building
method etc?
I did find a builders log a few months back and the gentleman was
making laminated struts but I never saved it and cant find it again so
if anyone knows the site could you please post the link.
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156099#156099
http://www.matp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
nbsp; generous bsp;
title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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1/6/2008 11:57 AM
Message 7
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I made my cabanes of Douglas Fir with a strip of steel 1 in wide by 0.08
glued inside. For the ends I drilled for a short piece of tubing with
the appropriate inside diameter for the bolts on either end. The steel
was all welded up before gluing the two halves of the wood together. I
did most of the shaping of the airfoil shape before gluing the two
halves together. I copied this from Jim Webb's Piet. He made his
cabanes and flying struts by this method. I think the flying struts
would end up being pretty heavy, so I'm planning steel or aluminum for
those.
Ben
Message 8
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Thanks Jim,
It was Wil Graf's Piet I made reference.
IF the max gross is 1400 lbs, 4 lift struts with juries, 4 cabanes..That
fiqures about 175 lbs tension on each.
Surely wood struts could carry that load. I strongly considered wood struts
on my first Piet until I discovered a find of new material being disposed.
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 9
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| Subject: | fabric over aluminum |
I am making progress covering the ailerons and will start the wings next.I will
of course glue the centerline of the aluminum leading edge wrap but is it better
to just clean the rest of the aluminum with MEK and leave it dry or coat it
with poly-brush? I have run into problems with pinholes in the past in that
area.Raymond
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156437#156437
Message 10
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List,
I am planning on building the A-arm tail wheel. How thick of tab do I need
for the tailwheel to mount to. I see a leaf spring is 1 1/2" wide, but how thick
is it?
Thanks
Ryan
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 11
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Allan Wise does not have steel strap in his lift struts or cabanes. I have
talked with him at length on this.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
> Thanks for the replies guys
> Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape
> also do you have any pic's?
> It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great
> looking cabanes.
> Anymore discussion would be great.
> Thanks
> Carson
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413
>
>
>
Message 12
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Jim,
What part of Oklahoma do you live in?
I live in Harrah, Oklahoma
Jim Veazey
_____________________________________________________________
Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resource
s.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw
63lJj0MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/
Message 13
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Thanks for the replies. The owner did state that he had the log books
and I will review them. I will also check for corrosion.
Thanks again,
Tim White
----- Original Message -----
From: T White
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price
I'm currently building a Pietenpol. A friend has a Continental A-75
for sale. He was told, when purchased several years ago, it was just
overhauled with 2 to 3 hours test stand time on it. Four years ago he
mounted it and ran it for approx 20 minutes with no problems. It has
since sat in his hangar. It is complete with mags (Eisenman?),
carburetor, oil tank, etc. He has not yet given me a price. What would
be a reasonable price range for this engine? Being new to homebuilding
any other advice concerning this engine is appreciated.
Tim White
Message 14
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| Subject: | Flighttime Radio Show |
The first Flighttime Radio Show went pretty good. We expected to be out of
things to say after the first five minutes, but as it turned out, we hardly
got to our guest and will have to have him back sometime, had two callers on
the line we could not get to before the show ended, and we didn't have time
for two events we needed to announce, announcing the topic of the next show,
or talking about our web site of the week. I guess that there were a few
people listening because we had several hundred web site hits during the
hour show and had callers from five states and a bunch of emails.
We have several very special surprise guests for next week so listen at 9:00
AM Eastern time.
The show is now archived on our web site at www.flighttimeradio.com. Click
on SHOW ARCHIVE on the menus on the left. And if anyone knows how to add a
streaming audio archive on the web site give me an email at
brian@engalt.com. Not to the entire list please!
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
www.flighttimeradio.com
Message 15
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I don't know what a good used one will cost, but I have a pretty good idea
that one that's been essentially "zero timed" with new Slick mags and harne
ss will set you back about $7K. That's for complete overhaul down to bare
metal, new paint, everything. No exhaust, no carb.
I have seen a mid-time A-65 here in my area for sale for about $3500 with o
lder mags, Stromberg carb, Aeronca stacks, and the usual so-so appearance a
fter having been pulled from a Champ or something.
For sure have a mechanic that you trust look at the engine but if you can g
et it for anything like $3-4 thousand, it would be a good deal. Very impor
tant to find out if it has logs and all applicable paperwork (especially if
it was converted from an A-65), otherwise you have an "experimental" and n
ot a "certified" engine. Also makes a slight bit of difference what type o
f prop hub it has (earlier have tapered crankshafts with taper shaft hubs;
later have "normal" flanged hubs).Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildr
ags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | cooling eyebrows |
Dick N. asked-
> On your eyebrows, did you make the ends that attach to the valve covers >
of steel? I Made the 1 1/2" end of steel and rivited it to aluminum.
Corky built the eyebrows and it looks to me like all components are aluminu
m. I'll sure take your idea under advisement.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXma
ilto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 17
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| Subject: | radio effectiveness |
Dick N. suggested-
> On the radio, with a handheld, performance will be greatly increased > wi
th an external antenna and installation of a ground plate. Try a 18"x > 18"
piece af aluminun under or behind the seat mounted horizontally and > cone
cted to the ground of the antenna. It helped me greatly.
I originally tried the radio (bottom-of-the-line Icom IC-A4 Sport) with add
-on push-to-talk switch velcro'd to the stick, connected to my flying helme
t headset with the Icom adapter and connected to my fixed external antenna
that is mounted behind the seat with an aluminum ground plane.
Being in a bit of a hurry to get off the ground and finding that my signal
wasn't getting out, I first determined that the Velcro'd PTT switch didn't
work with this radio so I ditched it and resigned myself to using the trans
mit switch on the side of the radio. So my signal got out, but weak. Next
, I tried using the radio's internal mic rather than my boom mic and the si
gnal was even clearer and better to my ground receiving station (my brother
, with a nicer handheld). That left only the antenna.
Removing the airplane's antenna and restoring the "rubber duckie" seemed to
be better but then again we may have tried the rubber duckie before we eli
minated the problems with the boom mic and external PTT (I don't remember t
he sequence), so I still need to go back and try my real antenna instead of
the rubber duckie. I know I have Walt's posts about how to block wind and
cockpit noise from a headset boom mic, but all of that will have to wait u
ntil I have the time and interest to fool with a @#$%& radio again. It's j
ust a distraction and a pain to fly with radios and I'm going to fight it t
ooth and toenail, and be darned if I use one when I fly to Brodhead this su
mmer. It takes a lot of the fun and focus out of my flying.Oscar Zuniga
"mostly NORDO and proud of it!"San Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 18
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How far from Tulsa?
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" <jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net>
To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
Jim,
What part of Oklahoma do you live in?
I live in Harrah, Oklahoma
Jim Veazey
_____________________________________________________________
Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw63lJj0MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/>
Message 19
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Thanks for the comments so far
Sounds like strenght is not a problem but maybe the weight
Dick do you think you could share how Allen made his if he didn't use a steel strip
in the middle?
Thanks
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156493#156493
Message 20
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I'm northeast of Tulsa about 40 miles...well, right NOW I'm in New York City...but
I've been here about 2 hours and already I'm VERY ready to be back about 40
miles northeast of Tulsa!! :-)
-----Original Message-----
>From: AmsafetyC@aol.com
>Sent: Jan 6, 2008 10:29 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
>
>How far from Tulsa?
>
>John
>
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" <jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net>
>
>Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:41:36
>To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
>
>Jim,
>What part of Oklahoma do you live in?
>I live in Harrah, Oklahoma
>Jim Veazey
>
>_____________________________________________________________
>Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. <http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw63lJj0MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/>
>
>
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