---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/06/08: 20 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:59 AM - Re: wood struts (Ed G.) 2. 06:50 AM - Re: wood struts (Isablcorky@aol.com) 3. 08:34 AM - Re: A-75 price (Steve Ruse) 4. 01:28 PM - Re: wood struts (carson) 5. 02:34 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Jim Markle) 6. 02:44 PM - Re: wood struts (Clif Dawson) 7. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Ben Charvet) 8. 02:46 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Isablcorky@aol.com) 9. 02:58 PM - fabric over aluminum (skellytownflyer) 10. 03:51 PM - Tailwheel mount (Ryan Michals) 11. 05:14 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Dick Navratil) 12. 05:44 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net) 13. 05:53 PM - Re: A-75 price (T White) 14. 05:56 PM - Flighttime Radio Show (Brian Kraut) 15. 06:45 PM - A-75 price (Oscar Zuniga) 16. 06:46 PM - cooling eyebrows (Oscar Zuniga) 17. 06:58 PM - radio effectiveness (Oscar Zuniga) 18. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 19. 08:51 PM - Re: wood struts (carson) 20. 09:22 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Jim Markle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:46 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood struts Hi Carson..I see no one has answered your post so I guess I'll chime in and maybe it will stir up some other interest. I didn't answer at first because I have no real experience with wood struts, But...I have seen Allan Wise's Piet at Sun N Fun many times and checked out his wooden struts carefully mainly out of amazement that anyone would do such a thing. His Piet was built in the early sixties and from what I hear has a ton of flying hours on it ( I could swear it was like 1600 hrs). The struts looked to be made of ash, oval shaped and lamenated with a top and a bottom piece and a thin strip of darker wood down the center, front and rear. I believe the darker wood is a filler strip on each side of a steel strip which is lamenated into the struts to take the tension loads. After learning about the steel strip they make a lot more sence. Allans were varnished and even though they were very old and darkened from age they were very nice looking. Hope this is of some help. Ed G. ----- Original Message ----- From: carson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts > Hi everyone hope you all have had a great christmas and newyear. I have seen a few pic's of Piets with wood flying and cabane struts. Does anyone have any tips or ideas on these, timber to use, building method etc? I did find a builders log a few months back and the gentleman was making laminated struts but I never saved it and cant find it again so if anyone knows the site could you please post the link. Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156099#156099 http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:50:33 AM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood struts Here I go butting in on the conversation again. During Brodhead 2000, our first, I was impressed with a Piet from Ohio with wooden struts. Did not record the owners name. Was painted red and white or maybe cream, straight axle with motorcycle wheels and brakes to include the brake activators right up to the instrument panel. SIMPLICITY. The struts, if I remember, were 3/4 by about 3 laminated of 3 1/4 pieces. Two spruce outside with 1/4 marine plywood in the center, I think. It was Ford powered. The beauty of it all was SIMPLICITY Corky in warm Louisiana, 75 today **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:34:39 AM PST US From: "Steve Ruse" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price My two cents: The biggest two factors here are: 1) What parts were used in the overhaul? Was the engine returned to factory new, or just within acceptable tolerances? Does it have factory new cylinders, or older overhauled cylinders that were repaired for $200? Can any documentation be provided for all the new parts? I can't imagine overhauling an engine for no reason and NOT keeping every single sheet of paper indicating anything that was done to the engine. 2) How was the engine stored? Was it properly oiled and sealed (pickled)? Was it in a humid environment? Does it have any rust anywhere (cylinders, cam, etc)? Depending on how it was stored, it could either be a great, ready to go engine or it could need $2,000 in parts. Make sure you know which before you buy it. Depending on those factors, I would say a price range of $3,000 to $8,000 could be reasonable. I know that is a huge range. If it has no documentation, I would say it is near the bottom of that range. You'll need to verify some of what you've been told about that engine. On the other hand, if everything is well documented, and if the engine was stored properly, and it has a lot of factory new parts (cylinders, mags, etc.), then it is probably closer to the high end. Steve Ruse ----- Original Message ----- From: T White To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price I'm currently building a Pietenpol. A friend has a Continental A-75 for sale. He was told, when purchased several years ago, it was just overhauled with 2 to 3 hours test stand time on it. Four years ago he mounted it and ran it for approx 20 minutes with no problems. It has since sat in his hangar. It is complete with mags (Eisenman?), carburetor, oil tank, etc. He has not yet given me a price. What would be a reasonable price range for this engine? Being new to homebuilding any other advice concerning this engine is appreciated. Tim White ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:28:09 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts From: "carson" Thanks for the replies guys Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape also do you have any pic's? It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great looking cabanes. Anymore discussion would be great. Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:34:45 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts Thanks Carson... I saw a sketch of a lift strut several years ago that had a flat bar (probably .090 by 1"wide or so) laminated inside a wood strut. Not sure if it was Allan's or maybe Wil Graff's (the plane Corky was probably referring to in an earlier post). Wils's piet is beautiful. Seems like adding a steel strip would make it pretty heavy. Now that I think about it, maybe some carbon fiber or kevlar laminated in there might provide the same strength. I think Allan told me he had 3000 hours on his Piet. Maybe it was 2000 hrs....whatever, it was wild. Allan is one of the most interesting people. Attached is a picture of an all wood lift strut. I have no idea where I got it (I'm probably violating some copyright law by forwarding it) but it looks like it's all wood. jm ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > Thanks for the replies guys > Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape > also do you have any pic's? > It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great > looking cabanes. > Anymore discussion would be great. > Thanks > Carson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:13 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood struts The rest of the airplane is made of wood, INCLUDING the spars. Spruce has a tensile strength of 6700 lb/square inch. For the sake of argument lets say a strut is 1" X 3 1/2". With streamlining the area should be 2/3 of the square area, or 2.3 square inch. There are four struts or 5.2 square inches. Thats 34840 lbs( yes I know that the front ones take the majority of the load) .Dividing on the assuption of equal load on a 1200 lb AC we get 29 g! How much less if properly calculated? 25 g? 20 g? Is this adequate? There's a bolt at each end. The strength here is based on how much force required to pull a plug of wood out by the bolt. That plug has two faces, the square area of which is the width of the strut times the distance from the end to the bolt. If the strut is 1" thick and the bolt is 1" from the end then you have two faces each 1" square or two square inches. The "shear parallel to the grain" is 1120 lb per square inch. So we have a strength here of 2240 lb. Four struts so thats a total of 8960 lb. That's still over 7 g. If we added another such bolt we have 14 g capacity. Taking into account the higher front strut stress I'd bet we still have at least 10 g to play with. And this is for plain, solid spruce, no plywood, no laminated straps or embedded tubing or anything else to complicate matters. You can add a little more strength by using Western Hemlock or Doug Fir but not much. Fir splits much too easily for one thing. Ash? That's a lot of extra weight for no usefull gain. The main advantage of Ash is shock resistance, as in a baseball bat or properly made tool handle. The way to go is to use the short, wraparound bracketing as on the Quebec Goose. There are many earlier manufactured planes that used spruce strutting. Some are still around. A few are still flying even. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 5:56 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wood struts Hi Carson..I see no one has answered your post so I guess I'll chime in and maybe it will stir up some other interest. I didn't answer at first because I have no real experience with wood struts, But...I have seen Allan Wise's Piet at Sun N Fun many times and checked out his wooden struts carefully mainly out of amazement that anyone would do such a thing. His Piet was built in the early sixties and from what I hear has a ton of flying hours on it ( I could swear it was like 1600 hrs). The struts looked to be made of ash, oval shaped and lamenated with a top and a bottom piece and a thin strip of darker wood down the center, front and rear. I believe the darker wood is a filler strip on each side of a steel strip which is lamenated into the struts to take the tension loads. After learning about the steel strip they make a lot more sence. Allans were varnished and even though they were very old and darkened from age they were very nice looking. Hope this is of some help. Ed G. ----- Original Message ----- From: carson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 2:53 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: wood struts Hi everyone hope you all have had a great christmas and newyear. I have seen a few pic's of Piets with wood flying and cabane struts. Does anyone have any tips or ideas on these, timber to use, building method etc? I did find a builders log a few months back and the gentleman was making laminated struts but I never saved it and cant find it again so if anyone knows the site could you please post the link. Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156099#156099 http://www.matp; via the Web title=http://forums.matronics.com/ href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com nbsp; generous bsp; title=http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ================ ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 1/6/2008 11:57 AM ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:01 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts I made my cabanes of Douglas Fir with a strip of steel 1 in wide by 0.08 glued inside. For the ends I drilled for a short piece of tubing with the appropriate inside diameter for the bolts on either end. The steel was all welded up before gluing the two halves of the wood together. I did most of the shaping of the airfoil shape before gluing the two halves together. I copied this from Jim Webb's Piet. He made his cabanes and flying struts by this method. I think the flying struts would end up being pretty heavy, so I'm planning steel or aluminum for those. Ben ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:46:01 PM PST US From: Isablcorky@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts Thanks Jim, It was Wil Graf's Piet I made reference. IF the max gross is 1400 lbs, 4 lift struts with juries, 4 cabanes..That fiqures about 175 lbs tension on each. Surely wood struts could carry that load. I strongly considered wood struts on my first Piet until I discovered a find of new material being disposed. **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:24 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: fabric over aluminum From: "skellytownflyer" I am making progress covering the ailerons and will start the wings next.I will of course glue the centerline of the aluminum leading edge wrap but is it better to just clean the rest of the aluminum with MEK and leave it dry or coat it with poly-brush? I have run into problems with pinholes in the past in that area.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156437#156437 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 03:51:33 PM PST US From: Ryan Michals Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tailwheel mount List, I am planning on building the A-arm tail wheel. How thick of tab do I need for the tailwheel to mount to. I see a leaf spring is 1 1/2" wide, but how thick is it? Thanks Ryan --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:14:28 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts Allan Wise does not have steel strap in his lift struts or cabanes. I have talked with him at length on this. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 3:27 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > Thanks for the replies guys > Ed was the steel in Allans struts the main strenght and the wood for shape > also do you have any pic's? > It was Jim Markles build log that I was looking for he has made some great > looking cabanes. > Anymore discussion would be great. > Thanks > Carson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156413#156413 > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:44:08 PM PST US From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts Jim, What part of Oklahoma do you live in? I live in Harrah, Oklahoma Jim Veazey _____________________________________________________________ Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resource s. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw 63lJj0MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/ ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:26 PM PST US From: "T White" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price Thanks for the replies. The owner did state that he had the log books and I will review them. I will also check for corrosion. Thanks again, Tim White ----- Original Message ----- From: T White To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 10:41 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price I'm currently building a Pietenpol. A friend has a Continental A-75 for sale. He was told, when purchased several years ago, it was just overhauled with 2 to 3 hours test stand time on it. Four years ago he mounted it and ran it for approx 20 minutes with no problems. It has since sat in his hangar. It is complete with mags (Eisenman?), carburetor, oil tank, etc. He has not yet given me a price. What would be a reasonable price range for this engine? Being new to homebuilding any other advice concerning this engine is appreciated. Tim White ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:56:49 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flighttime Radio Show The first Flighttime Radio Show went pretty good. We expected to be out of things to say after the first five minutes, but as it turned out, we hardly got to our guest and will have to have him back sometime, had two callers on the line we could not get to before the show ended, and we didn't have time for two events we needed to announce, announcing the topic of the next show, or talking about our web site of the week. I guess that there were a few people listening because we had several hundred web site hits during the hour show and had callers from five states and a bunch of emails. We have several very special surprise guests for next week so listen at 9:00 AM Eastern time. The show is now archived on our web site at www.flighttimeradio.com. Click on SHOW ARCHIVE on the menus on the left. And if anyone knows how to add a streaming audio archive on the web site give me an email at brian@engalt.com. Not to the entire list please! Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com www.flighttimeradio.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:45:17 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-75 price I don't know what a good used one will cost, but I have a pretty good idea that one that's been essentially "zero timed" with new Slick mags and harne ss will set you back about $7K. That's for complete overhaul down to bare metal, new paint, everything. No exhaust, no carb. I have seen a mid-time A-65 here in my area for sale for about $3500 with o lder mags, Stromberg carb, Aeronca stacks, and the usual so-so appearance a fter having been pulled from a Champ or something. For sure have a mechanic that you trust look at the engine but if you can g et it for anything like $3-4 thousand, it would be a good deal. Very impor tant to find out if it has logs and all applicable paperwork (especially if it was converted from an A-65), otherwise you have an "experimental" and n ot a "certified" engine. Also makes a slight bit of difference what type o f prop hub it has (earlier have tapered crankshafts with taper shaft hubs; later have "normal" flanged hubs).Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildr ags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:36 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: cooling eyebrows Dick N. asked- > On your eyebrows, did you make the ends that attach to the valve covers > of steel? I Made the 1 1/2" end of steel and rivited it to aluminum. Corky built the eyebrows and it looks to me like all components are aluminu m. I'll sure take your idea under advisement.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXma ilto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 06:58:51 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: radio effectiveness Dick N. suggested- > On the radio, with a handheld, performance will be greatly increased > wi th an external antenna and installation of a ground plate. Try a 18"x > 18" piece af aluminun under or behind the seat mounted horizontally and > cone cted to the ground of the antenna. It helped me greatly. I originally tried the radio (bottom-of-the-line Icom IC-A4 Sport) with add -on push-to-talk switch velcro'd to the stick, connected to my flying helme t headset with the Icom adapter and connected to my fixed external antenna that is mounted behind the seat with an aluminum ground plane. Being in a bit of a hurry to get off the ground and finding that my signal wasn't getting out, I first determined that the Velcro'd PTT switch didn't work with this radio so I ditched it and resigned myself to using the trans mit switch on the side of the radio. So my signal got out, but weak. Next , I tried using the radio's internal mic rather than my boom mic and the si gnal was even clearer and better to my ground receiving station (my brother , with a nicer handheld). That left only the antenna. Removing the airplane's antenna and restoring the "rubber duckie" seemed to be better but then again we may have tried the rubber duckie before we eli minated the problems with the boom mic and external PTT (I don't remember t he sequence), so I still need to go back and try my real antenna instead of the rubber duckie. I know I have Walt's posts about how to block wind and cockpit noise from a headset boom mic, but all of that will have to wait u ntil I have the time and interest to fool with a @#$%& radio again. It's j ust a distraction and a pain to fly with radios and I'm going to fight it t ooth and toenail, and be darned if I use one when I fly to Brodhead this su mmer. It takes a lot of the fun and focus out of my flying.Oscar Zuniga "mostly NORDO and proud of it!"San Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts From: AmsafetyC@aol.com How far from Tulsa? John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts Jim, What part of Oklahoma do you live in? I live in Harrah, Oklahoma Jim Veazey _____________________________________________________________ Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:54 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts From: "carson" Thanks for the comments so far Sounds like strenght is not a problem but maybe the weight Dick do you think you could share how Allen made his if he didn't use a steel strip in the middle? Thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156493#156493 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 09:22:48 PM PST US From: Jim Markle Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts I'm northeast of Tulsa about 40 miles...well, right NOW I'm in New York City...but I've been here about 2 hours and already I'm VERY ready to be back about 40 miles northeast of Tulsa!! :-) -----Original Message----- >From: AmsafetyC@aol.com >Sent: Jan 6, 2008 10:29 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > >How far from Tulsa? > >John > >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" > >Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 01:41:36 >To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > >Jim, >What part of Oklahoma do you live in? >I live in Harrah, Oklahoma >Jim Veazey > >_____________________________________________________________ >Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.