Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Mon 01/07/08


Total Messages Posted: 21



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: wood struts (pietn38b@aol.com)
     2. 06:56 AM - Re: wood struts (Bill Church)
     3. 07:48 AM - Re: nice Saturday flight (Phillips, Jack)
     4. 09:37 AM - Paul Poulin's Piet C-GZHT (Oscar Zuniga)
     5. 10:16 AM - Re: nice Saturday flight (Gene & Tammy)
     6. 12:25 PM - fuel pickup in each corner (Brian Kraut)
     7. 01:18 PM - Re: fabric over aluminum (jimd)
     8. 02:25 PM - Any windscreen advice? (jimd)
     9. 03:22 PM - Re: fuel pickup in each corner (Phillips, Jack)
    10. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Dick Navratil)
    11. 06:24 PM - Newbie Introduction (Bryan Lowe)
    12. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: fabric over aluminum (Rick Holland)
    13. 07:50 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (Ben Charvet)
    14. 08:25 PM - Re: fabric over aluminum (jimd)
    15. 08:31 PM - Any windshield templates? (jimd)
    16. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net)
    17. 08:46 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (jimd)
    18. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: fabric over aluminum (Scott Schreiber)
    19. 09:24 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (Gordon Bowen)
    20. 10:04 PM - Re: Any windshield templates? (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
    21. 10:09 PM - Re: Any windscreen advice? (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 05:48:40 AM PST US
    From: pietn38b@aol.com
    Subject: Re: wood struts
    There are several Jims on the list. I am Jim Ballew and live at Collinsville, OK, 5 miles north of Owasso. Jim In a message dated 1/6/2008 7:45:20 P.M. Central Standard Time, jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net writes: Jim, What part of Oklahoma do you live in? I live in Harrah, Oklahoma Jim Veazey _____________________________________________________________ _Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources._ (http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw63lJj0 MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:56:29 AM PST US
    Subject: wood struts
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    There was a Pietenpol at Brodhead this past summer that featured all wood struts (cabane, lift and jury struts) - C-GZHT, built by Paul Poulin, of Quebec, Canada. Paul built his struts from solid white ash that he laminated (all wood - no steel core). Paul said that he weighed his wood struts, and compared them to the weight of streamlined steel struts off a Pacer, and his struts were lighter. Paul had 120 hours on the plane as of Brodhead 2006 (before he went on to Oshkosh to pick up a Bronze Lindy). Attached is a detail picture of the struts, where it is possible to see the three laminations that make up the strut. More pictures are available at Chris Tracy's www.westcoastpiet.com website. Bill C <<Brodhead__20070721_252.jpg>>


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:48:52 AM PST US
    Subject: nice Saturday flight
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
    Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20 minutes. What I found flying it to Brodhead in 2005 was that by about an hour and a half, I neeed to get out of it. Now I tend to plan 100 - 120 mile legs. For one thing, unless you want to go into very busy municipal airports, you can't always guarentee that fuel will be available and you might have to go somewhere else. That happened to me on the way home from Oshkosh - I landed at Shelby County airport in Illinois and found the FBO office open, including an open drawer on the cash register, but not a soul around. I tried the gas pump - it was padlocked (I figured I could pump the gas and leave them some cash with a note). I couldn't find the key to the pump. I waited around for 30 minutes, looking for a note that gave a telephone number - nothing. Finally I figured I could make it to another airport about 40 miles away and took off. Taught me a lesson. If you had landed there and sputtered to a stop on the taxiway, you would be stuck for who knows how long. Murphy has many ways to ensnare aviators. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight I moved my airplane down to the Laredo, TX airport today to leave it with my A&P for its annual. I logged 2.5 hrs. on the flight, less than 150 statute miles. Beautiful day for flying except for the stiff headwind right on the nose (15 mph). Learned a few things. 1. This length of flight is about right for me and my airplane, and it's what I will plan on for legs to fly going to Brodhead. 2. You guys who have experienced fatigue and cracking of the mounting tabs on your Continental engine cooling eyebrows were right. One of mine fatigued and failed on this flight. I'm wondering about mounting them using tabs made out of pieces of radiator hose or something flexible. 3. I can't hear diddly with my cheapie handheld and the headset that I have. 4. I now know that the last 2 gallons of fuel in my 16 gallon tank are unusable in flight, but the last 3 are unusable in the 3-point attitude. I know my airplane won't be on the front page of the Laredo Times tomorrow morning, but the airport bums and tower guys will probably be talking about "that experimental that taxied off 17R yesterday without power". Made a great landing and rollout, was decelerating but when the tail came down and we started to clear the active, the engine died as fuel ran out. I debriefed this situation thoroughly with my instructor by cellphone later and told him that if I ever expect to fly this airplane anywhere away from my home field with confidence, I want to know the airplane's limitations and mine. Never was the safety or outcome of the flight in question or danger, but now I know that the red markings on the top inch of my float rod are a "no fly zone". Fuel truck pumped 13 gallons into my tank, but it wasn't plumb full when I left my home field this morning. At least it started up instantly after the fuel truck rolled out and topped me off, and it taxied strong and loud as we passed in full review of the tower, the FBOs, the fire station, and everybody else. Happy 2008; here's to more low and slow flying and 80 more years of Piets! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:37:19 AM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Paul Poulin's Piet C-GZHT
    Bill wrote- >More pictures are available at Chris Tracy's www.westcoastpiet.com websit e. Man, oh man-! What a great bunch of photos. Lots and lots of details and ideas there... take a look at the rudder trim setup, for example. Where do you start looking at all there is to see on this nifty airplane!!?? By the way, two hours in the air in a Piet gives you plenty of time to noti ce things. For example, I watched my wing struts in flight and they defini tely vibrate. The port side one seems to do so more than starboard, maybe due to the way the propwash comes off the prop. Makes me a real believer i n those jury struts! Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://w ww.flysquirrel.net


    Message 5


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    Time: 10:16:34 AM PST US
    From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: nice Saturday flight
    Jack, That's what I found out also when I flew from Florida to Tennessee. I made plans to remain aloft for about an hour and that way if I ran into head winds I'd still get down within an hour & a half. If I had tail winds then I could probably fly on to the next airport and still be in the air only about an hour and a half (my butt gets sore after that). Besides, one of the joys of flying a Piet is the reception you get at new airports. For me the more airports the better. Gene in windy Tennessee ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:22 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20 minutes. What I found flying it to Brodhead in 2005 was that by about an hour and a half, I neeed to get out of it. Now I tend to plan 100 - 120 mile legs. For one thing, unless you want to go into very busy municipal airports, you can't always guarentee that fuel will be available and you might have to go somewhere else. That happened to me on the way home from Oshkosh - I landed at Shelby County airport in Illinois and found the FBO office open, including an open drawer on the cash register, but not a soul around. I tried the gas pump - it was padlocked (I figured I could pump the gas and leave them some cash with a note). I couldn't find the key to the pump. I waited around for 30 minutes, looking for a note that gave a telephone number - nothing. Finally I figured I could make it to another airport about 40 miles away and took off. Taught me a lesson. If you had landed there and sputtered to a stop on the taxiway, you would be stuck for who knows how long. Murphy has many ways to ensnare aviators. Jack Phillips NX899JP ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:31 PM To: Pietenpol List Subject: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight I moved my airplane down to the Laredo, TX airport today to leave it with my A&P for its annual. I logged 2.5 hrs. on the flight, less than 150 statute miles. Beautiful day for flying except for the stiff headwind right on the nose (15 mph). Learned a few things. 1. This length of flight is about right for me and my airplane, and it's what I will plan on for legs to fly going to Brodhead. 2. You guys who have experienced fatigue and cracking of the mounting tabs on your Continental engine cooling eyebrows were right. One of mine fatigued and failed on this flight. I'm wondering about mounting them using tabs made out of pieces of radiator hose or something flexible. 3. I can't hear diddly with my cheapie handheld and the headset that I have. 4. I now know that the last 2 gallons of fuel in my 16 gallon tank are unusable in flight, but the last 3 are unusable in the 3-point attitude. I know my airplane won't be on the front page of the Laredo Times tomorrow morning, but the airport bums and tower guys will probably be talking about "that experimental that taxied off 17R yesterday without power". Made a great landing and rollout, was decelerating but when the tail came down and we started to clear the active, the engine died as fuel ran out. I debriefed this situation thoroughly with my instructor by cellphone later and told him that if I ever expect to fly this airplane anywhere away from my home field with confidence, I want to know the airplane's limitations and mine. Never was the safety or outcome of the flight in question or danger, but now I know that the red markings on the top inch of my float rod are a "no fly zone". Fuel truck pumped 13 gallons into my tank, but it wasn't plumb full when I left my home field this morning. At least it started up instantly after the fuel truck rolled out and topped me off, and it taxied strong and loud as we passed in full review of the tower, the FBOs, the fire station, and everybody else. Happy 2008; here's to more low and slow flying and 80 more years of Piets! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 1/4/2008 12:05 PM


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:25:16 PM PST US
    From: "Brian Kraut" <brian.kraut@engalt.com>
    Subject: fuel pickup in each corner
    I built my center section tank recently and also put a pickup in the front and rear corners (only one side of the tank). That is also the way it is on my Piper Pacer. On the Pacer the two tubes come out and join somewhere unknown. I think it is in the belly somewhere. Where are you joining them? Seems to me that the lower the better. I was thinking that running one tube down the forward cabane and one down the aft cabane with a "T" joining them just under the forward cabane would be best. With the pickups on just one side of the tank I will need to remember to not do a hard slip in the wrong direction on final with minimum fuel (actually nearly stopped the engine in my Pacer like that once), but four pickups seemed a bit overkill. Thoughts? This plane will have only the center section tank and no fuselage tank. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:22 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20 minutes.


    Message 7


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    Time: 01:18:47 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: fabric over aluminum
    From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
    I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems. Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush. The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap was applied over the cloth in similar fashion. What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where it seems of marginal value. I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, smell, and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably would have stayed with them for the wings other than that. I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt in latex, but it will all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying anything. Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale for $4). Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts? Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:25:28 PM PST US
    Subject: Any windscreen advice?
    From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
    Over the holidays I went to "The Yard Store" in Wichita, KS and picked up a big sheet of Plexiglas for making windscreens. Highly recommend checking it out if your ever in Wichita, its like an aircraft company part clearance store, tons of fasteners, aluminum, and tools. Originally wanted a PT-26 style canopy, but came to my senses, probably take a year to build, would way a lot and would only have a point if I had a good way to get cabin heat, which I don't. Want to keep it simple, been looking for a good template for the Plexiglas shape, and also for fittings to secure it in place. I will have to blind rivet the front one or else pull the gas tank to get at the back side to rivet it. Back seat is much easier, easy access. But the aluminum on the little deck area is pretty flimsy, don't know that it is up to supporting a windscreen, so may have to reinforce it and figure out how to make it so the windscreen is not to much of a hindrance to getting at the back of the instrument panel. Any suggestions on; 1.) How to cut the Plexiglas? Have a Rotozip and read that it works well for cutting it. Tony Bingelis articles indicated a grinder worked well, but I heard its a bit hard to control. What worked well? 2.) Drilling holes in Plexiglas.. any suggestions? Thinking about picking up one of those brass step drills, they are on sale at the moment. 3.) Mounting hardware.. part that goes through the Plexiglas in particular, are you using standard bolts, or rivets, or rubber bushings with bolts or what? Saw some kits for mounting windshields at greatlakesskipper.com, where they have a bunch of boat windshields, but not sure what to get. 4.) Mounting the windshield.. thought I would make templates for everything out of cardboard and work out the angles, placement and so forth. Did you guys have someone hold it in place then mark/drill holes, rivet the brackets in place then bend and install windshield, or attache everything to it and cleco it in place and replace cleco's with rivets, or what? I have never done it before and it seems like it would be easy, but most of my long significant learning experiences have happened when I thought something would be easy. 5.)Polishing the edges of the Plexiglas, any specifics ( I have sandpaper, polishing wheels, all kinds of things, but any recommendations on how best to do it. Been dissapointed in results of using dremel and its attachments, have a ShopSmith, but new to Plexiglas. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156593#156593


    Message 9


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    Time: 03:22:32 PM PST US
    Subject: fuel pickup in each corner
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
    Four pickups is definitely overkill, and tying them all together required an awful lot of plumbing. I ran each of the fuel lines down the adjacent cabane, then connected the two forward ones and the two aft ones and ran a line from the forward ones to the rear cockpit where they tied together with the aft lines. The fuel then goes through the fuel shutoff valve, then forward to the firewall and gascolator. I wouldn't do it that way again. It is nice tonot have any unusable fuel, but the cost in weight and complexity was high (of course, 2 gallons of unusable fuel is 12 lbs of useless weight). Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kraut Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:04 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel pickup in each corner I built my center section tank recently and also put a pickup in the front and rear corners (only one side of the tank). That is also the way it is on my Piper Pacer. On the Pacer the two tubes come out and join somewhere unknown. I think it is in the belly somewhere. Where are you joining them? Seems to me that the lower the better. I was thinking that running one tube down the forward cabane and one down the aft cabane with a "T" joining them just under the forward cabane would be best. With the pickups on just one side of the tank I will need to remember to not do a hard slip in the wrong direction on final with minimum fuel (actually nearly stopped the engine in my Pacer like that once), but four pickups seemed a bit overkill. Thoughts? This plane will have only the center section tank and no fuselage tank. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:22 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20 minutes. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:20:07 PM PST US
    From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: wood struts
    Carson I will check my photos when I get a chance, I know I've got lots of pics. Meanwhile there are a couple of pics on the Matronics photo share from Dec 17, 2001. Allan used 2 plys of Doug fir with as I recall a section of plywood between. For another beautiful job of wood struts, check out the cover of Sport Aviation Sept 2004. The scaled Jenny was at OSH in 2006. I looked it over carefully, it's better than the pics show. I am going to be building a set like that for my plane. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts > > Thanks for the comments so far > Sounds like strenght is not a problem but maybe the weight > Dick do you think you could share how Allen made his if he didn't use a > steel strip in the middle? > Thanks > Carson > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156493#156493 > > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 06:24:55 PM PST US
    From: Bryan Lowe <kingfm@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Newbie Introduction
    I am 50 and live in Seattle. Many years ago I decided I wanted to build an airplane. In those pre-Internet days I decided on the Pietenpol. I even called Bernie at his home, and felt so excited talking to this pioneer in avaiation. I told him I wanted to buy plans, but only if he autographed them! My autographed plans arrived shortly after. Kids. Money. Safety concerns. Now its about 27 years later and I am thinking again. My questions are... I have gotten heavier, though exercise is starting to help. I am maybe 270 pounds. Ouch. I am also six feet tall, but my torso is so long I seem more like 6'5" when seated. OK. So I sound pretty odd! I looked at many planes this time around, including a Mini-Max model and planes along the lines of the challenger UL's, but the Pietenpol still seems like a good airplane for the kind of flying I would want to do. (Any flying license is long gone btw). Is there anyone with one locally so I could see if I fit? Do you already know I wouldn't? Thoughts? Thanks Bryan Seattle ----- Original Message ---- From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 1:16:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems. Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush. The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap was applied over the cloth in similar fashion. What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where it seems of marginal value. I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, smell, and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably would have stayed with them for the wings other than that. I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt in latex, but it will all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying anything. Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale for $4). Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts? Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582 Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs


    Message 12


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    Time: 07:25:03 PM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: fabric over aluminum
    Jim Have talked to a lot of people who have finished aircraft with latex, and not just Pietenpols. I plan on using using polytac and gloss latex. I covered a test panel this way about two years ago (two coats on one side and three on the other) and attached it to a post in the back yard facing South. This is in Colorado at a little under 7000 ft. with around 300 days of sunshine a year meaning LOTS of intense UV, snow, hail, high winds, etc. and it still looks like new. Assuming I fly my Piet 100 hours a year and hanger it the rest of the time I figure I will have to own it 175 years to expose it as much as that panel in my back yard. And of course the $200 vs. $2500 cost is a big factor. One experiment I would like to do is to cover two identical panels, one with latex and one with full polyfiber and compare the weight differences. Many have claimed that latex should be lighter. Rick On Jan 7, 2008 1:16 PM, jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com> wrote: > > I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process > video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems. > > Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching > compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me > whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video > indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, > then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush. > > The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how > differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the > EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it > dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off > excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap > was applied over the cloth in similar fashion. > > What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 > gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems > like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where > it seems of marginal value. > > I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch > of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, > smell, and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably > would have stayed with them for the wings other than that. > > I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will > ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the > cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend > on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is > needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt > in latex, but it will all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't > see the extra cost buying anything. > > Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by > the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits > products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me > was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. > With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no > fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap > kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale for $4). > > Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts? > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582 > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado


    Message 13


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    Time: 07:50:32 PM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Newbie Introduction
    Welcome to the list. I'm sure you'll get lots of advice in the next few days. If there is no one near enough to give you a trial fit, you could make a mock-up of the cockpit area using your plans and see how well you fit. I made a whole fuselage out of cheap lumber, using door skins for the plywood gussets and nailed and glued with carpenters glue. It wouldn't cost you much and you'd get a good idea what you had in front of you, and if you like it you can use the same jigs to make the real thing. I'm curious what you meant by "any pilot license long gone btw" If you ever had a private pilot cert and have never failed a flight physical you can now fly a Pietenpol under the sport pilot rules, but you do have to have a license, and a tailwheel endorsement. That is all a few years in your future though. You'll find one unique thing about the Piet is how much help you can get from this list from lots of other builders. Good luck! Ben Charvet Mims, Fl


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:25:53 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: fabric over aluminum
    From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
    I did some research on latex and found that people have been using it at least for 10 yrs, probably twice that on airplanes. Looked in to what was best and found a few recommendations; 100% Exterior Acrylic Latex Valspar was rated best kind Recommendation that first coats are brushed on, later ones can be sprayed, even with HVLP, but need to dilute with windshield wiper fluid and Floetrol. Kind of sandpaper used to sand between later coats made a big difference. Lot of other recommendations, but based on what I read I went to Lowes intending to pick up a quart of Valspar to experiment with. Took red and white samples, ended up getting a gallon of their best stuff, custom mixed to match my Aero-Thane red and white, for $11.70 a gallon (they were out of quart base and gave me quart price on gallons..) anyway even with everything else I bought to do experiments, I doubt I spend $300 for covering the wings. (Most of it will go for EkoBond, as I already had fabric/tape/needles/rib stitching lace/etc.). Bought my daughter a EyeClops toy video-microscope thing for Christmas, and found it is really good for looking at things like you would a regular microsope. Plan on making up test frames with fabric and testing between using brushes/rollers/normal spray/HVLP with all kinds of variations to figure out what works best for finishing the fabric. The EyeClops thing will make it easy to see details of how well the latex is penetrating the fabric, how smooth it is, that sort of thing. Will be a while, but if it works out I will put some pics and findings on the list here. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156689#156689


    Message 15


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    Time: 08:31:45 PM PST US
    Subject: Any windshield templates?
    From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
    Went through all my plans for the GN-1, Pietenpol Aerial, and JN-4. None of them have anything for windshields. Anyone have a template or drawing with dimensions for windshields? Want to keep it fairly simple and light, I tend to make things stout and heavy. Been looking at other plane forums (especially biplanes since they tend to have same kind of windshields) and haven't found anything. Lots of pictures on westcoastpiet site, helps but right technical drawing would be so much better. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156694#156694


    Message 16


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    Time: 08:43:51 PM PST US
    From: "jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net" <jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net>
    Subject: Re: wood struts
    Harrah is 20 miles east from Oklahoma City Jim Veazey Harrah, OK _____________________________________________________________ Love Graphic Design? Find a school near you. Click Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vGi4tw8NN5jfDsWv1z yFxz3MStbF3JA3cxMwjuQMiInEHFk/


    Message 17


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    Time: 08:46:34 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Newbie Introduction
    From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
    Great idea to try it. But not all of them are the same size. My plane is an oddball no doubt (Biplane version of a Grega GN-1, but based on Pietenpol). I am about the same size you said you are, slightly taller though, and fit in the cockpit of my plane, snuggly. The distance between the sides of the fuselage and the sides of the passenger seat are just big enough for my legs, but not really wide enough to fly comfortably, so I will be modifying the passenger seat a bit, otherwise it fits. The front seats are about the same size, but typically much harder to get in. If you have a wife that would be flying with you (or young secretary?) you might want to be sure that it will be sized for them as well. There is a youtube video of someone getting in to the front of a Pietenpol and its worth watching. The GN-1 is very similar, but has the wing up a bit higher to make it easier to get in. Mine has a lower wing with a walkway that should make it much easier to get in. Quite a few folks have made their fuselages a bit wider, and done things to make them more comfortable. Tony Bingelis's books suggest building a full size mockup of the cockpit. At first that sounds like a lot of wasted effort, but I think it is a good idea. Getting in to one that is already built and taking notes would be more expedient. Good luck. If your not sure about the time commitment give some thought to finding one that is partially built but not complete. I came close to buying Gary Enneking's Pietenpol project, its been on barnstormers for a while (Jon Yungblut is selling it I think). There are a lot of unfinished projects, that have good workmanship, and lots of sweat and effort put in to them. While it would be great to build every single part of the plane, not that many people have the time, but one that is well underway could be finished. (Just looking around at them could give you a number of cockpits to try out.) Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156703#156703


    Message 18


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    Time: 08:53:39 PM PST US
    From: "Scott Schreiber" <got22b@subarubrat.com>
    Subject: Re: fabric over aluminum
    I covered a 1/3 scale Stearman with the lightest grade of stitts fabric. For paint I used primer over the tapes then another coat thinned down with water sprayed on to get an even white. After that I sprayed the water thinned blue and yellow. The final coat was polyurothane over the top. The engine is a 4 stroke 250cc radial and it sprays allot of oil mist and it all wipes off OK. Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com> Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:24 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum > > I did some research on latex and found that people have been using it at > least for 10 yrs, probably twice that on airplanes. Looked in to what was > best and found a few recommendations; > > 100% Exterior Acrylic Latex > > Valspar was rated best kind > > Recommendation that first coats are brushed on, later ones can be sprayed, > even with HVLP, but need to dilute with windshield wiper fluid and > Floetrol. > > Kind of sandpaper used to sand between later coats made a big difference. > > Lot of other recommendations, but based on what I read I went to Lowes > intending to pick up a quart of Valspar to experiment with. Took red and > white samples, ended up getting a gallon of their best stuff, custom mixed > to match my Aero-Thane red and white, for $11.70 a gallon (they were out > of quart base and gave me quart price on gallons..) anyway even with > everything else I bought to do experiments, I doubt I spend $300 for > covering the wings. (Most of it will go for EkoBond, as I already had > fabric/tape/needles/rib stitching lace/etc.). > > Bought my daughter a EyeClops toy video-microscope thing for Christmas, > and found it is really good for looking at things like you would a regular > microsope. Plan on making up test frames with fabric and testing between > using brushes/rollers/normal spray/HVLP with all kinds of variations to > figure out what works best for finishing the fabric. The EyeClops thing > will make it easy to see details of how well the latex is penetrating the > fabric, how smooth it is, that sort of thing. Will be a while, but if it > works out I will put some pics and findings on the list here. > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156689#156689 > > >


    Message 19


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    Time: 09:24:51 PM PST US
    From: "Gordon Bowen" <gbowen@ptialaska.net>
    Subject: Re: Newbie Introduction
    Bryan, Welcome to the list. Just couple points about supersizing. I'm the same size you are and I fit, it's kinda cozy but works fine. My buddy who flies the plane sometimes is over 300 lbs, two axe handles wide at the shoulders, he gets in but has hard time with his beer belly and the controls, but makes it ok. First tip: simply make the fuselage more eggshaped from front to back, no problem. Give yourself 4-6 more inches between the top longerons, egg shaped planes like the Questar fly just fine. Tip 2: don't under power. I have a lycosaur o-235 with 108 hp. Get good with CG calulations. Your weight behind the CG will offset a lot of weight in front of the firewall. You are not going to go overgross with the Piete unless you pack a 200 lb passenger, that ain't gonna happen considering the size of the front seat. Sooo make your seat nice and wide at the shoulders, get enough of a powerplant so you aren't sweating the liftoff and enjoy. Gordon N-1033B ----- Original Message ----- From: Bryan Lowe To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:25 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie Introduction I am 50 and live in Seattle. Many years ago I decided I wanted to build an airplane. In those pre-Internet days I decided on the Pietenpol. I even called Bernie at his home, and felt so excited talking to this pioneer in avaiation. I told him I wanted to buy plans, but only if he autographed them! My autographed plans arrived shortly after. Kids. Money. Safety concerns. Now its about 27 years later and I am thinking again. My questions are... I have gotten heavier, though exercise is starting to help. I am maybe 270 pounds. Ouch. I am also six feet tall, but my torso is so long I seem more like 6'5" when seated. OK. So I sound pretty odd! I looked at many planes this time around, including a Mini-Max model and planes along the lines of the challenger UL's, but the Pietenpol still seems like a good airplane for the kind of flying I would want to do. (Any flying license is long gone btw). Is there anyone with one locally so I could see if I fit? Do you already know I wouldn't? Thoughts? Thanks Bryan Seattle ----- Original Message ---- From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 1:16:16 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems. Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush. The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap was applied over the cloth in similar fashion. What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where it seems of marginal value. I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, smell, and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably would have stayed with them for the wings other than that. I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt in latex, but it will all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying anything. Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale


    Message 20


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    Time: 10:04:01 PM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Any windshield templates?
    Just some thots on Plex. I used a lot of it as a Museum Curator. It will obviously flex according to the thickness. We often heated it with a wire heater or even a really hot heat gun and bent it. Perhaps you could bend the ends if needed to attach it to something. Bending it this way is not a precise technique. you simply heat it till it is right and bend it til it looks about right. Not machine shop precision. but the remaining flex helps it be forgiving. You can make really custom shaped object, IE a Clear sectional holder or some such. It scratches pretty easy but it also polishes out . We used Spray furnature polish to clean it. I use that on my Bonanza today. It will soak off a bug pretty well. The quality of the cloth is VERY important. Soft Clean cotton is best. You can drill holes pretty easy as long as you don't get too near the edge. It will burn and melt if you get it too hot while cutting it or drilling it. If you get it too hot with the heat gun it will bubble. Like aluminium, it will become more rigid as it gets bends. The price is directly tied to the cost of oil. just a lurker who likes piets (perhaps when the kids are out of school?) Steve Dortch 1948 Bonanza San Antonio ----- Original Message ----- From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any windshield templates? > > Went through all my plans for the GN-1, Pietenpol Aerial, and JN- > 4. None of them have anything for windshields. Anyone have a > template or drawing with dimensions for windshields? Want to keep > it fairly simple and light, I tend to make things stout and heavy. > > Been looking at other plane forums (especially biplanes since they > tend to have same kind of windshields) and haven't found anything. > > Lots of pictures on westcoastpiet site, helps but right technical > drawing would be so much better. > > Jim > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156694#156694 > > > > > > > > > > >


    Message 21


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    Time: 10:09:13 PM PST US
    From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG" <steven.d.dortch@us.army.mil>
    Subject: Re: Any windscreen advice?
    More thots If it comes with paper on both sides, leave the paper on as long as possible. Cut it on the tablesaw with the paper on, Drill it with the paper on. Peel it off only when you must, In order to heat it. you "polish" the edges with a heat gun, or better yet a small propane burner. it smooths the edges right out. pretty and no sharp corner. Super glue can be used to glue two pieces of Plex together. Don't ask be about the effect of vibraton on this bond. Blue Skies Steve




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