Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:48 AM - Re: Re: wood struts (pietn38b@aol.com)
2. 06:56 AM - Re: wood struts (Bill Church)
3. 07:48 AM - Re: nice Saturday flight (Phillips, Jack)
4. 09:37 AM - Paul Poulin's Piet C-GZHT (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 10:16 AM - Re: nice Saturday flight (Gene & Tammy)
6. 12:25 PM - fuel pickup in each corner (Brian Kraut)
7. 01:18 PM - Re: fabric over aluminum (jimd)
8. 02:25 PM - Any windscreen advice? (jimd)
9. 03:22 PM - Re: fuel pickup in each corner (Phillips, Jack)
10. 06:20 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (Dick Navratil)
11. 06:24 PM - Newbie Introduction (Bryan Lowe)
12. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: fabric over aluminum (Rick Holland)
13. 07:50 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (Ben Charvet)
14. 08:25 PM - Re: fabric over aluminum (jimd)
15. 08:31 PM - Any windshield templates? (jimd)
16. 08:43 PM - Re: Re: wood struts (jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net)
17. 08:46 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (jimd)
18. 08:53 PM - Re: Re: fabric over aluminum (Scott Schreiber)
19. 09:24 PM - Re: Newbie Introduction (Gordon Bowen)
20. 10:04 PM - Re: Any windshield templates? (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
21. 10:09 PM - Re: Any windscreen advice? (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG)
Message 1
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There are several Jims on the list. I am Jim Ballew and live at
Collinsville, OK, 5 miles north of Owasso. Jim
In a message dated 1/6/2008 7:45:20 P.M. Central Standard Time,
jbveazey.7ok@netzero.net writes:
Jim,
What part of Oklahoma do you live in?
I live in Harrah, Oklahoma
Jim Veazey
_____________________________________________________________
_Hate your job? Click here to start a rewarding career in Human Resources._
(http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2222/fc/Ioyw6i4s1Rb92igWZ5aDRNjaw63lJj0
MGUUAu5wbX4slxg9p1b9Aii/)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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There was a Pietenpol at Brodhead this past summer that featured all
wood struts (cabane, lift and jury struts) - C-GZHT, built by Paul
Poulin, of Quebec, Canada. Paul built his struts from solid white ash
that he laminated (all wood - no steel core). Paul said that he weighed
his wood struts, and compared them to the weight of streamlined steel
struts off a Pacer, and his struts were lighter. Paul had 120 hours on
the plane as of Brodhead 2006 (before he went on to Oshkosh to pick up a
Bronze Lindy). Attached is a detail picture of the struts, where it is
possible to see the three laminations that make up the strut. More
pictures are available at Chris Tracy's www.westcoastpiet.com website.
Bill C <<Brodhead__20070721_252.jpg>>
Message 3
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Subject: | nice Saturday flight |
Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol
Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon
unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so
the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20
minutes. What I found flying it to Brodhead in 2005 was that by about
an hour and a half, I neeed to get out of it. Now I tend to plan 100 -
120 mile legs. For one thing, unless you want to go into very busy
municipal airports, you can't always guarentee that fuel will be
available and you might have to go somewhere else. That happened to me
on the way home from Oshkosh - I landed at Shelby County airport in
Illinois and found the FBO office open, including an open drawer on the
cash register, but not a soul around. I tried the gas pump - it was
padlocked (I figured I could pump the gas and leave them some cash with
a note). I couldn't find the key to the pump. I waited around for 30
minutes, looking for a note that gave a telephone number - nothing.
Finally I figured I could make it to another airport about 40 miles away
and took off. Taught me a lesson. If you had landed there and
sputtered to a stop on the taxiway, you would be stuck for who knows how
long.
Murphy has many ways to ensnare aviators.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
Zuniga
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:31 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight
I moved my airplane down to the Laredo, TX airport today to leave it
with my A&P for its annual. I logged 2.5 hrs. on the flight, less than
150 statute miles. Beautiful day for flying except for the stiff
headwind right on the nose (15 mph). Learned a few things.
1. This length of flight is about right for me and my airplane, and it's
what I will plan on for legs to fly going to Brodhead.
2. You guys who have experienced fatigue and cracking of the mounting
tabs on your Continental engine cooling eyebrows were right. One of
mine fatigued and failed on this flight. I'm wondering about mounting
them using tabs made out of pieces of radiator hose or something
flexible.
3. I can't hear diddly with my cheapie handheld and the headset that I
have.
4. I now know that the last 2 gallons of fuel in my 16 gallon tank are
unusable in flight, but the last 3 are unusable in the 3-point attitude.
I know my airplane won't be on the front page of the Laredo Times
tomorrow morning, but the airport bums and tower guys will probably be
talking about "that experimental that taxied off 17R yesterday without
power". Made a great landing and rollout, was decelerating but when the
tail came down and we started to clear the active, the engine died as
fuel ran out. I debriefed this situation thoroughly with my instructor
by cellphone later and told him that if I ever expect to fly this
airplane anywhere away from my home field with confidence, I want to
know the airplane's limitations and mine. Never was the safety or
outcome of the flight in question or danger, but now I know that the red
markings on the top inch of my float rod are a "no fly zone". Fuel
truck pumped 13 gallons into my tank, but it wasn't plumb full when I
left my home field this morning.
At least it started up instantly after the fuel truck rolled out and
topped me off, and it taxied strong and loud as we passed in full review
of the tower, the FBOs, the fire station, and everybody else.
Happy 2008; here's to more low and slow flying and 80 more years of
Piets!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 4
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Subject: | Paul Poulin's Piet C-GZHT |
Bill wrote-
>More pictures are available at Chris Tracy's www.westcoastpiet.com websit
e.
Man, oh man-! What a great bunch of photos. Lots and lots of details and
ideas there... take a look at the rudder trim setup, for example. Where do
you start looking at all there is to see on this nifty airplane!!??
By the way, two hours in the air in a Piet gives you plenty of time to noti
ce things. For example, I watched my wing struts in flight and they defini
tely vibrate. The port side one seems to do so more than starboard, maybe
due to the way the propwash comes off the prop. Makes me a real believer i
n those jury struts!
Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://w
ww.flysquirrel.net
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: nice Saturday flight |
Jack,
That's what I found out also when I flew from Florida to Tennessee. I
made plans to remain aloft for about an hour and that way if I ran into
head winds I'd still get down within an hour & a half. If I had tail
winds then I could probably fly on to the next airport and still be in
the air only about an hour and a half (my butt gets sore after that).
Besides, one of the joys of flying a Piet is the reception you get at
new airports. For me the more airports the better.
Gene in windy Tennessee
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 8:22 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight
Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol
Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon
unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so
the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20
minutes. What I found flying it to Brodhead in 2005 was that by about
an hour and a half, I neeed to get out of it. Now I tend to plan 100 -
120 mile legs. For one thing, unless you want to go into very busy
municipal airports, you can't always guarentee that fuel will be
available and you might have to go somewhere else. That happened to me
on the way home from Oshkosh - I landed at Shelby County airport in
Illinois and found the FBO office open, including an open drawer on the
cash register, but not a soul around. I tried the gas pump - it was
padlocked (I figured I could pump the gas and leave them some cash with
a note). I couldn't find the key to the pump. I waited around for 30
minutes, looking for a note that gave a telephone number - nothing.
Finally I figured I could make it to another airport about 40 miles away
and took off. Taught me a lesson. If you had landed there and
sputtered to a stop on the taxiway, you would be stuck for who knows how
long.
Murphy has many ways to ensnare aviators.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
Zuniga
Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2008 9:31 PM
To: Pietenpol List
Subject: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight
I moved my airplane down to the Laredo, TX airport today to leave it
with my A&P for its annual. I logged 2.5 hrs. on the flight, less than
150 statute miles. Beautiful day for flying except for the stiff
headwind right on the nose (15 mph). Learned a few things.
1. This length of flight is about right for me and my airplane, and
it's what I will plan on for legs to fly going to Brodhead.
2. You guys who have experienced fatigue and cracking of the mounting
tabs on your Continental engine cooling eyebrows were right. One of
mine fatigued and failed on this flight. I'm wondering about mounting
them using tabs made out of pieces of radiator hose or something
flexible.
3. I can't hear diddly with my cheapie handheld and the headset that I
have.
4. I now know that the last 2 gallons of fuel in my 16 gallon tank are
unusable in flight, but the last 3 are unusable in the 3-point attitude.
I know my airplane won't be on the front page of the Laredo Times
tomorrow morning, but the airport bums and tower guys will probably be
talking about "that experimental that taxied off 17R yesterday without
power". Made a great landing and rollout, was decelerating but when the
tail came down and we started to clear the active, the engine died as
fuel ran out. I debriefed this situation thoroughly with my instructor
by cellphone later and told him that if I ever expect to fly this
airplane anywhere away from my home field with confidence, I want to
know the airplane's limitations and mine. Never was the safety or
outcome of the flight in question or danger, but now I know that the red
markings on the top inch of my float rod are a "no fly zone". Fuel
truck pumped 13 gallons into my tank, but it wasn't plumb full when I
left my home field this morning.
At least it started up instantly after the fuel truck rolled out and
topped me off, and it taxied strong and loud as we passed in full review
of the tower, the FBOs, the fire station, and everybody else.
Happy 2008; here's to more low and slow flying and 80 more years of
Piets!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you
is prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
1/4/2008 12:05 PM
Message 6
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Subject: | fuel pickup in each corner |
I built my center section tank recently and also put a pickup in the front
and rear corners (only one side of the tank). That is also the way it is on
my Piper Pacer. On the Pacer the two tubes come out and join somewhere
unknown. I think it is in the belly somewhere. Where are you joining them?
Seems to me that the lower the better. I was thinking that running one tube
down the forward cabane and one down the aft cabane with a "T" joining them
just under the forward cabane would be best.
With the pickups on just one side of the tank I will need to remember to not
do a hard slip in the wrong direction on final with minimum fuel (actually
nearly stopped the engine in my Pacer like that once), but four pickups
seemed a bit overkill. Thoughts?
This plane will have only the center section tank and no fuselage tank.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:22 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight
Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a Pietenpol Cross
Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1 tablespoon unusuable fuel
(centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each corner) so the plane should
be capable of staying aloft for about 3 hours and 20 minutes.
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: fabric over aluminum |
I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process video (from
EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems.
Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching compound
and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me whatever I did
to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video indicated you
attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth
tape is put on with PolyBrush.
The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how differently
they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the EkoBond after
etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it dry, put cloth
over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off excess with blue shop
towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap was applied over the cloth
in similar fashion.
What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 gallon or
so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems like both approachs
really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where it seems of marginal
value.
I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch of them
from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, smell, and
health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably would have
stayed with them for the wings other than that.
I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will ever go,
using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the cloth tape
and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend on putting any
extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is needed. I may put
latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt in latex, but it will
all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying
anything.
Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by the book
added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits products. Stewart
systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me was the cost and
toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex
I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless
paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one
up at a garage sale for $4).
Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts?
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582
Message 8
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Subject: | Any windscreen advice? |
Over the holidays I went to "The Yard Store" in Wichita, KS and picked up a big
sheet of Plexiglas for making windscreens. Highly recommend checking it out if
your ever in Wichita, its like an aircraft company part clearance store, tons
of fasteners, aluminum, and tools.
Originally wanted a PT-26 style canopy, but came to my senses, probably take a
year to build, would way a lot and would only have a point if I had a good way
to get cabin heat, which I don't.
Want to keep it simple, been looking for a good template for the Plexiglas shape,
and also for fittings to secure it in place. I will have to blind rivet the
front one or else pull the gas tank to get at the back side to rivet it.
Back seat is much easier, easy access. But the aluminum on the little deck area
is pretty flimsy, don't know that it is up to supporting a windscreen, so may
have to reinforce it and figure out how to make it so the windscreen is not to
much of a hindrance to getting at the back of the instrument panel.
Any suggestions on;
1.) How to cut the Plexiglas? Have a Rotozip and read that it works well for cutting
it. Tony Bingelis articles indicated a grinder worked well, but I heard
its a bit hard to control. What worked well?
2.) Drilling holes in Plexiglas.. any suggestions? Thinking about picking up one
of those brass step drills, they are on sale at the moment.
3.) Mounting hardware.. part that goes through the Plexiglas in particular, are
you using standard bolts, or rivets, or rubber bushings with bolts or what? Saw
some kits for mounting windshields at greatlakesskipper.com, where they have
a bunch of boat windshields, but not sure what to get.
4.) Mounting the windshield.. thought I would make templates for everything out
of cardboard and work out the angles, placement and so forth. Did you guys have
someone hold it in place then mark/drill holes, rivet the brackets in place
then bend and install windshield, or attache everything to it and cleco it in
place and replace cleco's with rivets, or what? I have never done it before and
it seems like it would be easy, but most of my long significant learning experiences
have happened when I thought something would be easy.
5.)Polishing the edges of the Plexiglas, any specifics ( I have sandpaper, polishing
wheels, all kinds of things, but any recommendations on how best to do it.
Been dissapointed in results of using dremel and its attachments, have a ShopSmith,
but new to Plexiglas.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156593#156593
Message 9
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Subject: | fuel pickup in each corner |
Four pickups is definitely overkill, and tying them all together
required an awful lot of plumbing. I ran each of the fuel lines down
the adjacent cabane, then connected the two forward ones and the two aft
ones and ran a line from the forward ones to the rear cockpit where they
tied together with the aft lines. The fuel then goes through the fuel
shutoff valve, then forward to the firewall and gascolator. I wouldn't
do it that way again. It is nice tonot have any unusable fuel, but the
cost in weight and complexity was high (of course, 2 gallons of
unusable fuel is 12 lbs of useless weight).
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Brian
Kraut
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:04 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel pickup in each corner
I built my center section tank recently and also put a pickup in the
front and rear corners (only one side of the tank). That is also the
way it is on my Piper Pacer. On the Pacer the two tubes come out and
join somewhere unknown. I think it is in the belly somewhere. Where
are you joining them? Seems to me that the lower the better. I was
thinking that running one tube down the forward cabane and one down the
aft cabane with a "T" joining them just under the forward cabane would
be best.
With the pickups on just one side of the tank I will need to remember to
not do a hard slip in the wrong direction on final with minimum fuel
(actually nearly stopped the engine in my Pacer like that once), but
four pickups seemed a bit overkill. Thoughts?
This plane will have only the center section tank and no fuselage tank.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Phillips,
Jack
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 9:22 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: nice Saturday flight
Oscar, I used to plan 120 mile (roughly 2 hour) legs for a
Pietenpol Cross Country. I have a 15 gallon tank with about 1
tablespoon unusuable fuel (centersection tank with a fuel pickup in each
corner) so the plane should be capable of staying aloft for about 3
hours and 20 minutes.
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 10
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Carson
I will check my photos when I get a chance, I know I've got lots of pics.
Meanwhile there are a couple of pics on the Matronics photo share from Dec
17, 2001. Allan used 2 plys of Doug fir with as I recall a section of
plywood between. For another beautiful job of wood struts, check out the
cover of Sport Aviation Sept 2004. The scaled Jenny was at OSH in 2006. I
looked it over carefully, it's better than the pics show. I am going to be
building a set like that for my plane.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 10:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: wood struts
>
> Thanks for the comments so far
> Sounds like strenght is not a problem but maybe the weight
> Dick do you think you could share how Allen made his if he didn't use a
> steel strip in the middle?
> Thanks
> Carson
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156493#156493
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Newbie Introduction |
I am 50 and live in Seattle. Many years ago I decided I wanted to build an airplane.
In those pre-Internet days I decided on the Pietenpol. I even called
Bernie at his home, and felt so excited talking to this pioneer in avaiation.
I told him I wanted to buy plans, but only if he autographed them! My autographed
plans arrived shortly after.
Kids. Money. Safety concerns. Now its about 27 years later and I am thinking
again.
My questions are...
I have gotten heavier, though exercise is starting to help. I am maybe 270 pounds.
Ouch. I am also six feet tall, but my torso is so long I seem more like
6'5" when seated. OK. So I sound pretty odd!
I looked at many planes this time around, including a Mini-Max model and planes
along the lines of the challenger UL's, but the Pietenpol still seems like a
good airplane for the kind of flying I would want to do. (Any flying license
is long gone btw).
Is there anyone with one locally so I could see if I fit? Do you already know
I wouldn't? Thoughts?
Thanks
Bryan
Seattle
----- Original Message ----
From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 1:16:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum
I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process video (from
EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems.
Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching compound
and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me whatever I did
to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video indicated you
attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth
tape is put on with PolyBrush.
The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how differently
they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the EkoBond after
etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it dry, put cloth
over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off excess with blue shop
towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap was applied over the cloth
in similar fashion.
What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2 gallon or
so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems like both approachs
really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where it seems of marginal
value.
I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch of them
from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability, smell,
and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably would have
stayed with them for the wings other than that.
I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will ever go,
using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the cloth tape
and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend on putting any
extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is needed. I may put
latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt in latex, but it will
all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying
anything.
Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by the book
added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits products. Stewart
systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me was the cost and
toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex
I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless
paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one
up at a garage sale for $4).
Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts?
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
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Subject: | Re: fabric over aluminum |
Jim
Have talked to a lot of people who have finished aircraft with latex, and
not just Pietenpols. I plan on using using polytac and gloss latex. I
covered a test panel this way about two years ago (two coats on one side and
three on the other) and attached it to a post in the back yard facing South.
This is in Colorado at a little under 7000 ft. with around 300 days of
sunshine a year meaning LOTS of intense UV, snow, hail, high winds, etc. and
it still looks like new. Assuming I fly my Piet 100 hours a year and hanger
it the rest of the time I figure I will have to own it 175 years to expose
it as much as that panel in my back yard. And of course the $200 vs. $2500
cost is a big factor.
One experiment I would like to do is to cover two identical panels, one with
latex and one with full polyfiber and compare the weight differences. Many
have claimed that latex should be lighter.
Rick
On Jan 7, 2008 1:16 PM, jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process
> video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems.
>
> Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum etching
> compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA told me
> whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the Stits video
> indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed surfaces with PolyTak,
> then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush.
>
> The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in how
> differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using the
> EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond, let it
> dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth, dryed off
> excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest of cloth tap
> was applied over the cloth in similar fashion.
>
> What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2
> gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface. Seems
> like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in places where
> it seems of marginal value.
>
> I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a bunch
> of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about flammability,
> smell, and health impact of all those things being in my garage. I probably
> would have stayed with them for the wings other than that.
>
> I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane will
> ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for all the
> cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I don't intend
> on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other than what is
> needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or even soak the felt
> in latex, but it will all come down to what works for aesthetics, as I don't
> see the extra cost buying anything.
>
> Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials by
> the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits
> products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for me
> was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs. Latex..
> With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no smell, no
> fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed in a cheap
> kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale for $4).
>
> Anyway, I digressed, but what are your thoughts?
>
> Jim
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156582#156582
>
>
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
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Subject: | Re: Newbie Introduction |
Welcome to the list. I'm sure you'll get lots of advice in the next few
days. If there is no one near enough to give you a trial fit, you could
make a mock-up of the cockpit area using your plans and see how well you
fit. I made a whole fuselage out of cheap lumber, using door skins for
the plywood gussets and nailed and glued with carpenters glue. It
wouldn't cost you much and you'd get a good idea what you had in front
of you, and if you like it you can use the same jigs to make the real thing.
I'm curious what you meant by "any pilot license long gone btw" If you
ever had a private pilot cert and have never failed a flight physical
you can now fly a Pietenpol under the sport pilot rules, but you do have
to have a license, and a tailwheel endorsement. That is all a few years
in your future though.
You'll find one unique thing about the Piet is how much help you can get
from this list from lots of other builders. Good luck!
Ben Charvet
Mims, Fl
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Subject: | Re: fabric over aluminum |
I did some research on latex and found that people have been using it at least
for 10 yrs, probably twice that on airplanes. Looked in to what was best and found
a few recommendations;
100% Exterior Acrylic Latex
Valspar was rated best kind
Recommendation that first coats are brushed on, later ones can be sprayed, even
with HVLP, but need to dilute with windshield wiper fluid and Floetrol.
Kind of sandpaper used to sand between later coats made a big difference.
Lot of other recommendations, but based on what I read I went to Lowes intending
to pick up a quart of Valspar to experiment with. Took red and white samples,
ended up getting a gallon of their best stuff, custom mixed to match my Aero-Thane
red and white, for $11.70 a gallon (they were out of quart base and gave
me quart price on gallons..) anyway even with everything else I bought to do
experiments, I doubt I spend $300 for covering the wings. (Most of it will go
for EkoBond, as I already had fabric/tape/needles/rib stitching lace/etc.).
Bought my daughter a EyeClops toy video-microscope thing for Christmas, and found
it is really good for looking at things like you would a regular microsope.
Plan on making up test frames with fabric and testing between using brushes/rollers/normal
spray/HVLP with all kinds of variations to figure out what works
best for finishing the fabric. The EyeClops thing will make it easy to see details
of how well the latex is penetrating the fabric, how smooth it is, that
sort of thing. Will be a while, but if it works out I will put some pics and findings
on the list here.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156689#156689
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Subject: | Any windshield templates? |
Went through all my plans for the GN-1, Pietenpol Aerial, and JN-4. None of them
have anything for windshields. Anyone have a template or drawing with dimensions
for windshields? Want to keep it fairly simple and light, I tend to make
things stout and heavy.
Been looking at other plane forums (especially biplanes since they tend to have
same kind of windshields) and haven't found anything.
Lots of pictures on westcoastpiet site, helps but right technical drawing would
be so much better.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156694#156694
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Harrah is 20 miles east from Oklahoma City
Jim Veazey
Harrah, OK
_____________________________________________________________
Love Graphic Design? Find a school near you. Click Now.
http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2221/fc/Ioyw6i4vGi4tw8NN5jfDsWv1z
yFxz3MStbF3JA3cxMwjuQMiInEHFk/
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Subject: | Re: Newbie Introduction |
Great idea to try it. But not all of them are the same size. My plane is an oddball
no doubt (Biplane version of a Grega GN-1, but based on Pietenpol). I am
about the same size you said you are, slightly taller though, and fit in the cockpit
of my plane, snuggly. The distance between the sides of the fuselage and
the sides of the passenger seat are just big enough for my legs, but not really
wide enough to fly comfortably, so I will be modifying the passenger seat
a bit, otherwise it fits.
The front seats are about the same size, but typically much harder to get in. If
you have a wife that would be flying with you (or young secretary?) you might
want to be sure that it will be sized for them as well.
There is a youtube video of someone getting in to the front of a Pietenpol and
its worth watching. The GN-1 is very similar, but has the wing up a bit higher
to make it easier to get in. Mine has a lower wing with a walkway that should
make it much easier to get in. Quite a few folks have made their fuselages a
bit wider, and done things to make them more comfortable. Tony Bingelis's books
suggest building a full size mockup of the cockpit. At first that sounds like
a lot of wasted effort, but I think it is a good idea. Getting in to one that
is already built and taking notes would be more expedient.
Good luck. If your not sure about the time commitment give some thought to finding
one that is partially built but not complete. I came close to buying Gary
Enneking's Pietenpol project, its been on barnstormers for a while (Jon Yungblut
is selling it I think). There are a lot of unfinished projects, that have good
workmanship, and lots of sweat and effort put in to them. While it would be
great to build every single part of the plane, not that many people have the
time, but one that is well underway could be finished. (Just looking around at
them could give you a number of cockpits to try out.)
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156703#156703
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Subject: | Re: fabric over aluminum |
I covered a 1/3 scale Stearman with the lightest grade of stitts fabric. For
paint I used primer over the tapes then another coat thinned down with water
sprayed on to get an even white. After that I sprayed the water thinned blue
and yellow. The final coat was polyurothane over the top. The engine is a 4
stroke 250cc radial and it sprays allot of oil mist and it all wipes off OK.
Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 11:24 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum
>
> I did some research on latex and found that people have been using it at
> least for 10 yrs, probably twice that on airplanes. Looked in to what was
> best and found a few recommendations;
>
> 100% Exterior Acrylic Latex
>
> Valspar was rated best kind
>
> Recommendation that first coats are brushed on, later ones can be sprayed,
> even with HVLP, but need to dilute with windshield wiper fluid and
> Floetrol.
>
> Kind of sandpaper used to sand between later coats made a big difference.
>
> Lot of other recommendations, but based on what I read I went to Lowes
> intending to pick up a quart of Valspar to experiment with. Took red and
> white samples, ended up getting a gallon of their best stuff, custom mixed
> to match my Aero-Thane red and white, for $11.70 a gallon (they were out
> of quart base and gave me quart price on gallons..) anyway even with
> everything else I bought to do experiments, I doubt I spend $300 for
> covering the wings. (Most of it will go for EkoBond, as I already had
> fabric/tape/needles/rib stitching lace/etc.).
>
> Bought my daughter a EyeClops toy video-microscope thing for Christmas,
> and found it is really good for looking at things like you would a regular
> microsope. Plan on making up test frames with fabric and testing between
> using brushes/rollers/normal spray/HVLP with all kinds of variations to
> figure out what works best for finishing the fabric. The EyeClops thing
> will make it easy to see details of how well the latex is penetrating the
> fabric, how smooth it is, that sort of thing. Will be a while, but if it
> works out I will put some pics and findings on the list here.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156689#156689
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Newbie Introduction |
Bryan,
Welcome to the list. Just couple points about supersizing. I'm the
same size you are and I fit, it's kinda cozy but works fine. My buddy
who flies the plane sometimes is over 300 lbs, two axe handles wide at
the shoulders, he gets in but has hard time with his beer belly and the
controls, but makes it ok. First tip: simply make the fuselage more
eggshaped from front to back, no problem. Give yourself 4-6 more inches
between the top longerons, egg shaped planes like the Questar fly just
fine. Tip 2: don't under power. I have a lycosaur o-235 with 108 hp.
Get good with CG calulations. Your weight behind the CG will offset a
lot of weight in front of the firewall. You are not going to go
overgross with the Piete unless you pack a 200 lb passenger, that ain't
gonna happen considering the size of the front seat. Sooo make your
seat nice and wide at the shoulders, get enough of a powerplant so you
aren't sweating the liftoff and enjoy.
Gordon
N-1033B
----- Original Message -----
From: Bryan Lowe
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2008 1:25 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Newbie Introduction
I am 50 and live in Seattle. Many years ago I decided I wanted to
build an airplane. In those pre-Internet days I decided on the
Pietenpol. I even called Bernie at his home, and felt so excited
talking to this pioneer in avaiation. I told him I wanted to buy plans,
but only if he autographed them! My autographed plans arrived shortly
after.
Kids. Money. Safety concerns. Now its about 27 years later and I
am thinking again.
My questions are...
I have gotten heavier, though exercise is starting to help. I am
maybe 270 pounds. Ouch. I am also six feet tall, but my torso is so
long I seem more like 6'5" when seated. OK. So I sound pretty odd!
I looked at many planes this time around, including a Mini-Max model
and planes along the lines of the challenger UL's, but the Pietenpol
still seems like a good airplane for the kind of flying I would want to
do. (Any flying license is long gone btw).
Is there anyone with one locally so I could see if I fit? Do you
already know I wouldn't? Thoughts?
Thanks
Bryan
Seattle
----- Original Message ----
From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com>
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2008 1:16:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fabric over aluminum
I was kind of wondering the same thing. I have both the Stits process
video (from EAA) and the DVD set from Stewart systems.
Stits indicates you put PolyBrush on it, and they have an aluminum
etching compound and two part epoxy. My technical counselor from EAA
told me whatever I did to etch it first so you get a good bond. Then the
Stits video indicated you attach everything to to the PolyBrushed
surfaces with PolyTak, then the cloth tape is put on with PolyBrush.
The Stewart system one is for using with EkoBond, but was intesting in
how differently they approached same thing; They put thin felt on using
the EkoBond after etching, then pretty well soaked the felt in Ekobond,
let it dry, put cloth over it, put the EkoBond on top of the cloth,
dryed off excess with blue shop towels. Then ran iron over it all. Rest
of cloth tap was applied over the cloth in similar fashion.
What I wondered about was, why the aluminum would need to have a 1/2
gallon or so of glue, yet the STC needed at most 3" of glued surface.
Seems like both approachs really involve putting a lot of glue on in
places where it seems of marginal value.
I decided against using Stits products (even though I still have a
bunch of them from my fuselage/tail covering) due to concern about
flammability, smell, and health impact of all those things being in my
garage. I probably would have stayed with them for the wings other than
that.
I plan on rib stitching for much higher speed than my GN-1 Biplane
will ever go, using wider glued surfaces than required, using glue for
all the cloth tape and having it wider than absolutely necessary. But I
don't intend on putting any extra glue over the aluminum or felt, other
than what is needed. I may put latex over the aluminum, then felt, or
even soak the felt in latex, but it will all come down to what works for
aesthetics, as I don't see the extra cost buying anything.
Materials to finish up my wings (cover them) with all Stits materials
by the book added up to around $2500, and I already have a lot of Stits
products. Stewart systems was a bit less but not much. The big thing for
me was the cost and toxicity of Aero-Thane, vs Randolph paints, vs.
Latex.. With EkoBond and Latex I am looking at $400 to finish them, no
smell, no fumes, no need for a sparkless paint mixer (latex can be mixed
in a cheap kitchen style mixer, picked one up at a garage sale
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Any windshield templates? |
Just some thots on Plex. I used a lot of it as a Museum Curator.
It will obviously flex according to the thickness.
We often heated it with a wire heater or even a really hot heat gun and bent it.
Perhaps you could bend the ends if needed to attach it to something. Bending
it this way is not a precise technique. you simply heat it till it is right and
bend it til it looks about right. Not machine shop precision. but the remaining
flex helps it be forgiving.
You can make really custom shaped object, IE a Clear sectional holder or some such.
It scratches pretty easy but it also polishes out .
We used Spray furnature polish to clean it. I use that on my Bonanza today. It
will soak off a bug pretty well. The quality of the cloth is VERY important. Soft
Clean cotton is best.
You can drill holes pretty easy as long as you don't get too near the edge.
It will burn and melt if you get it too hot while cutting it or drilling it. If
you get it too hot with the heat gun it will bubble.
Like aluminium, it will become more rigid as it gets bends.
The price is directly tied to the cost of oil.
just a lurker who likes piets (perhaps when the kids are out of school?)
Steve Dortch
1948 Bonanza
San Antonio
----- Original Message -----
From: jimd <jlducey@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any windshield templates?
>
> Went through all my plans for the GN-1, Pietenpol Aerial, and JN-
> 4. None of them have anything for windshields. Anyone have a
> template or drawing with dimensions for windshields? Want to keep
> it fairly simple and light, I tend to make things stout and heavy.
>
> Been looking at other plane forums (especially biplanes since they
> tend to have same kind of windshields) and haven't found anything.
>
> Lots of pictures on westcoastpiet site, helps but right technical
> drawing would be so much better.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=156694#156694
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Any windscreen advice? |
More thots
If it comes with paper on both sides, leave the paper on as long as possible. Cut
it on the tablesaw with the paper on, Drill it with the paper on. Peel it off
only when you must, In order to heat it.
you "polish" the edges with a heat gun, or better yet a small propane burner. it
smooths the edges right out. pretty and no sharp corner.
Super glue can be used to glue two pieces of Plex together. Don't ask be about
the effect of vibraton on this bond.
Blue Skies
Steve
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