---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 01/27/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:20 AM - Seat belts? (jimd) 2. 12:15 PM - Re: Seat belts? (Rick Holland) 3. 01:15 PM - Re: Seat belts? (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 4. 02:36 PM - Re: Seat belts? (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 5. 03:24 PM - Re: Seat belts? (Gene Rambo) 6. 05:18 PM - Re: Seat belts? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 7. 05:44 PM - Re: Seat belts? (Scott Schreiber) 8. 06:44 PM - a nice day (Dick Navratil) 9. 07:16 PM - Re: Seat belts? (Brian Kraut) 10. 09:19 PM - Re: Seat belts? (James Dallas) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:20:00 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? From: "jimd" Hi, Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to work adequately for a crash. Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes you think. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:15:43 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Never heard of seat belt degrading, so now we need to replace our seat belts every two years along with our batteries? Rick On Jan 27, 2008 9:17 AM, jimd wrote: > > Hi, > > Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car > seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the > expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat > belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that > said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and > enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to > work adequately for a crash. > > Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first > thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost > more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching > the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane > wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the > ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. > > My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the > steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots > seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger > seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. > > Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a > bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. > > What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard > anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk > about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 > Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes > you think. > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? From: AmsafetyC@aol.com Fyi I had come across that a few years back. I asked a buddy about it he's into building drag race cars. He told me there in nothing wrong with the belts. Just another way for the seatbelt companies to make more. I doubt you can get on a comercial jet that just had all its passenger belts replaced due to the 2 year age. My car is 10 years old and I have to change the belts. I haven't even gotten a recall or service notice on that. If I can snag 2 sets alike in color and style I am gonna install them in my Piet. John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Rick Holland" To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Never heard of seat belt degrading, so now we need to replace our seat belts every two years along with our batteries? Rick On Jan 27, 2008 9:17 AM, jimd > wrote: Hi, Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to work adequately for a crash. Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes you think. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:36:09 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Jim, I walked into my local racing (dirt car) business and asked for some seat belt harnesses. The had a wide array to choose from and I found a nice pair with the shoulder and waist belt all sew together with just a buckle to connect them all. It also came with the mounting hardware so I cut the end of the mounting strap to proper length I needed and re-sewned it to the clasp. (a boot repair shop does this) The check fit and adjustablility....great! Looks professional and cool!....great! only 30 bucks!...priceless! My therory is this..seatbealts hold you in place and keep you from migrating amounst the cockpit environment. Saving me from a crash, burn, or flip?.......between me and the maker! Ken H jimd wrote: Hi, Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to work adequately for a crash. Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes you think. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:42 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Yes you will get on an airliner that has had its belts changed!! Take a look on EBAY at all of the aircraft seat belt sets for sale, these were taken off of airliners. The 121 regs require the belts to be changed periodically. TSOd seatbelts have a strength requirement that can be looked up easily online, something like 2500 lbs tensile strength. Most TSO tags have a date on them, usually the date of manufacture but I suppose an expiration date may be on some. The tag also usually has the strength requirement on it. For a homebuilt, like ours, we can do pretty much whatever we want, but we should stay within the strength limits. Someone on here bought belts and shortened them and had a show shop re-sew the ends. That is great, but keep in mind that companies that make seat belts use a needle with a rounded end. A sharp needle, I am told, tears the fibers of the belt and weakens it. You should at least pull test it to the limit once you have had it altered. Call Jack Hooker (great-grandson of General Hooker and source of the term "Hooker", who makes Hooker harnesses for aircraft and race cars) sometime, he will be happy to tell you anything you need to know. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: AmsafetyC@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 4:13 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? AmsafetyC@aol.com Fyi I had come across that a few years back. I asked a buddy about it he's into building drag race cars. He told me there in nothing wrong with the belts. Just another way for the seatbelt companies to make more. I doubt you can get on a comercial jet that just had all its passenger belts replaced due to the 2 year age. My car is 10 years old and I have to change the belts. I haven't even gotten a recall or service notice on that. If I can snag 2 sets alike in color and style I am gonna install them in my Piet. John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Rick Holland" > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 09:58:35 To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Never heard of seat belt degrading, so now we need to replace our seat belts every two years along with our batteries? Rick On Jan 27, 2008 9:17 AM, jimd > > wrote: > > Hi, Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to work adequately for a crash. Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes you think. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:56 PM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Wonder if all this had any bearing on the death of Dale Earnhart? Personally, I'm not sure how strong I would want the belts to be...Let's say the human body can withstand 20G's. Lets also say the belts are good to 22G's. Do you take your chances bouncing out of the plane across a runway, or risk being pulled apart by the belts? Just thinking out loud... Boyce **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape. http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:44:57 PM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? This got me thinking, I called a firefighter friend of mine who has pulled allot of people from allot of wrecks. His comment was that the only recurring failure he has seen over the years is the failure to wear them. _Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? > > Hi, > > Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car > seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the > expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat > belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that > said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and > enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough > to work adequately for a crash. > > Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first > thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost > more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching > the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane > wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the > ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. > > My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the > steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the > pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The > passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the > shoulders. > > Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a > bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. > > What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard > anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks > talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old > 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. > Makes you think. > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 > > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:06 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: a nice day Since things are a bit slow here, I'll tell you all about a nice day over NW Wisc. 34 degrees at 1:00. I hadn't flown my A-65 Piet sivce August. I did the pre flight and gave it 2 shots of prime, pulled the prop thru 10 times, 1 more shot of prime, left the primer open, switch on and she fired up on the first pull. I had taken the seat cushion out to lower myself down a bit to get less wind in the face. After take off I stayed in the pattern for a couple of circuits to make sure things were running good and went out low level flying. One nice thing about the cold here is it makes some long flat places for landing. Theres nothing like flying over frozen lakes at 5-10 ft. Its good over farm fields too in the summer but this is a flat surface with no fences or furrows. I stayed out for about 1.5 hours and was not cold at all. Just thought Id share Dick N ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:15 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? I seem to remember seeing something somewhere about aircraft seat belts in Europe having to replaced by a certian expiration date, but not in the U.S. Don't remember where I saw that. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of jimd Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Hi, Just had an interesting experience, was bidding on a 5pt set of sprint car seat belts (aircraft style) on eBay and someone asked the seller what the expiration date was, and he said 2005. That led me to delve in to why seat belts for sprint cars would have an expiration date. There was a faq that said that the belts lose a great deal of strength in there first year, and enough that by the second or third year that they were not strong enough to work adequately for a crash. Think I did one of those dog head tilt "say what?" things. Anyway first thought was that instead of a used ones, I would get new ones, which cost more but should be stronger. How strong should they be? Did some searching the net and ran across some safety articles saying that most light plane wrecks (80-90%) are survivable if proper seat belt/restraints with the ability to handle around 20g forces are properly installed and worn. My GN-1 biplane project has a very strong cable that is anchored to the steel tube frame for the shoulder belts, and two mount points on the pilots seat for belts (that are anchored to the steel tube frame). The passenger seat has two mount points for belts, but nothing for the shoulders. Saw that the PFA (Brittish equivelent of FAA I think?) required quite a bit of beefing up of the mountings for pietenpol's seat belt/restraints. What kind of belts/mountings are you guys using on your planes? Heard anything about the strength and degradation issues the car racing folks talk about? Personally I am wondering about car seat belts.. have an old 86 Porsche 944 with 22yr old belts, and my newest car has 3 yr old ones. Makes you think. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=160654#160654 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:46 PM PST US From: James Dallas Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Seat belts? Jim, I used to own and drive sprinters and midgets. We always swapped the belts every two years whether they looked good or not. Unlike a normal car these are washed at the car wash after every race. They also are constantly exposed to the elements during the summer. On most sprint cars the belts have been used at least once during the season from rough landings.....the wings aren't supposed to make the car fly, so when they do its usually always a rough landing and the human body will stretch the belt 3 inches. There is no way to tell what the strength is after a couple years other than destructive testing so we just play it safe and replace. The other JimD ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.