Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:55 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Phillips, Jack)
2. 05:56 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (HelsperSew@aol.com)
3. 06:42 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (James)
4. 06:45 AM - Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (HelsperSew@aol.com)
6. 08:39 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (SSchof4277@aol.com)
7. 08:39 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (AmsafetyC@aol.com)
8. 08:47 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Owen Davies)
9. 08:55 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Dick Navratil)
10. 09:23 AM - Re: Re: windscreens (Dick Navratil)
11. 10:47 AM - Dutch Pietenpol Project Website (Bill Church)
12. 10:49 AM - Re: Re: windscreens (Rick Holland)
13. 11:16 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (James)
14. 11:55 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Rick Holland)
15. 11:59 AM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
16. 12:24 PM - Re: Oversize piet (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
17. 12:25 PM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Rick Holland)
18. 12:56 PM - Any Piet projects in/around Denver? (Jim Markle)
19. 12:58 PM - Re: Oversize piet (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
20. 01:16 PM - Re: Oversize piet (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG FORSCOM)
21. 01:28 PM - Re: Oversize piet (Bill Church)
22. 01:45 PM - Re: Oversize piet (jimd)
23. 01:51 PM - Re: Dutch Pietenpol Project Website (jimd)
24. 01:57 PM - Re: Plywood (jimd)
25. 02:21 PM - Markle in Denver (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
26. 02:22 PM - check this out (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
27. 02:44 PM - Re: Re: Plywood (Bill Church)
28. 03:15 PM - I am a Purist (HelsperSew@aol.com)
29. 03:18 PM - Markle in Denver (Oscar Zuniga)
30. 03:19 PM - Re: Re: Oversize piet (Owen Davies)
31. 04:14 PM - Re: Any Piet projects in/around Denver? (Rick Holland)
32. 05:20 PM - Re: Re: Plywood (shad bell)
33. 05:50 PM - Markle in Denver (Oscar Zuniga)
34. 05:54 PM - Re: Markle in Denver ()
35. 06:39 PM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Steve Eldredge) (Gary Meadows)
36. 07:16 PM - Re: Markle in Denver (AmsafetyC@aol.com)
37. 07:36 PM - Re: Oversize piet (AmsafetyC@aol.com)
38. 07:38 PM - Re: Re: windscreens (Dick Navratil)
39. 08:04 PM - Re: Oversize piet (Steve Eldredge)
40. 08:07 PM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Steve Eldredge)
41. 08:07 PM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Steve Eldredge)
42. 08:38 PM - Re: Oversize piet (Jim Markle)
43. 09:06 PM - Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Tim Willis)
44. 09:49 PM - Butt rib covering (Scott Schreiber)
45. 10:14 PM - Re: Oversize piet (jimd)
46. 11:10 PM - Re: Re: Oversize piet (Owen Davies)
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
I say go for it, Steve. Bill Rewey has talked for years about wanting
to build a "Super" Piet. He was wanting to make the wing 3' longer.
I'd go even further and make it at least 4' more, to get the wing
loading down to something close to that of a J-3 (7.15 lb/sq ft). My
Piet at gross has a wing loading of almost 8 lbs/sq ft. The old rule of
thumb for airplanes was: If the wing loading in lbs/sq ft and the power
loading in lbs/hp added up to more than 25, you've got a sluggish
climbing airplane. My Piet at 1195 lbs gross (full fuel, me and a 160
lb passenger) has a wing loading of 7.97lbs/sq ft and a power loading of
18.38, for a total of 26.35. Loaded like that, I get a good solid 100
ft/min climb rate. With a bigger wing and the power of that LOM engine
you should be able to get it well under 25 total.
I've flown a Fairchild 22 and can honestly say that a Pietenpol is a
better flying airplane. Those full span ailerons on the Fairchild seem
to contribute little but adverse yaw. Visibility on the ground is
worse, too (but the Fairchild 22 I've been flying has a radial engine,
which requires S-turning to see around when taxiing). The Farchild is
much heavier on the controls. Cool airplane, though.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Eldredge
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize.
I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
First off if you're a purist, this isn't going to sit well, my only
excuse is that I have built and flown one to the plans (mostly)
So hear goes...
Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out
so far.
Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
I looked around at other parasol designs and there is the Baking Duce,
and the Fairchild 22. What is cooking up in my mind is something like a
F-22 with the pietenpol tail....
Just wondering what you might think of it...
Steve E
Low and Slow Since 1929
Pietenpol Aircamper
steve@byu.edu <mailto:steve@byu.edu>
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Steve,
Go for it. Just don't call it a Pietenpol!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 3
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
oh god, he can call it whatever he wants.
Jim T.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HelsperSew@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Steve,
Go for it. Just don't call it a Pietenpol!
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
_____
Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape
<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489> in
the new year.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Steveee wrote-
>I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize.
>I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
Well, given that this is the Piet list, you're going to get opinions that are biased
towards the Piet!
>Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
>mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.
You're imagining something along the lines of Corky's NX31CC, the "Southern Comfort"
(for those who desire/require a bit more room to stretch out).
>Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on his
Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and weight,
but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
>What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 with the pietenpol tail....
Now there you go making a Frankenstein out of two perfectly good airplanes ;o)
If you want to take the time and effort to figure out how to make it all work,
more power to ya but you'll be out there plowing new ground.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Jim,
He can't. Ask any purist.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Since I am 6'4" and 250lbs, I've been thinking about a larger "Piet" also. I
love everything about the original Piet, except its size, and I just can't
justify building something I know I'll never truly fit into. I figure that
since I am about 20% larger (heavier) than Bernie, a "Piet" + 20% should be about
right.
I say go for it Steve-arino, and keep us posted as to your progress.
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Can you define the sense of the term purist?
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: HelsperSew@aol.com
To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Jim,
He can't. Ask any purist.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
----------------
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Among other interesting observations, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on his
Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and
weight, but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
Dry weight of the 75hp LOM is 152 lb, with the 140 hp model coming in at
249 lb. A 125 hp Menasco C4 Pirate is 284 lb dry. The 150 hp CASA Tigre
IV lists at 264 lb. The 125 hp version is a little lighter, but I can't
find the number at the moment.
I hope Mr. Ducey has beefed up the front end of his Pete-alike. The
weight is fine, but all that horsepower would scare me.
Owen Davies
newly resubscribed, with five wing ribs in the garage and restored
enthusiasm to complete the plane after many years in hibernation
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Steve
Have you seen the Italian Aerolab? Thats kind of what it sounds like
you are describing. They make it in 3 different configurations. I like
the low wing set up best.
In my opinion which I have stated many times before is that if Bernard
Pietenpol was still around today he would be trying all kinds of
different ideas and would probably pull out some sketches he had done
while you were describing your idea.
Dick N.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Eldredge
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 11:20 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
I'm dreaming of another piet. this one is going to be a bit oversize.
I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
First off if you're a purist, this isn't going to sit well, my only
excuse is that I have built and flown one to the plans (mostly)
So hear goes.
Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out
so far.
Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
I looked around at other parasol designs and there is the Baking Duce,
and the Fairchild 22. What is cooking up in my mind is something like a
F-22 with the pietenpol tail..
Just wondering what you might think of it.
Steve E
Low and Slow Since 1929
Pietenpol Aircamper
steve@byu.edu
Message 10
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Jim
Be sure to hold on to your template just in case. I re- made my windscreen
several times. If it isnt high enough the wind comes over and makes it hard
to talk on the radio. To big and it doesnt look that great. Flying the
other day in cold temp was comfortable with no wind in the cockpit.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: windscreens
>
> Never did find a good template, so I ended up making one myself. Took some
> stiff cardboard, curved it about the way I thought it should be, taped it
> so the curve would stay in it. (big rectangle just the middle bowing out)
> and then held it in place over the fuselage at about the right angle for a
> windshield.
>
> Used a compass held vertically to trace the profile of the fuselage on to
> the cardboard, then cut the profile out and made a few adjustments to get
> the cardboard to fit well. Then transfered the shape of the bottom of the
> windshield up to the top and cut it off so it was basically windshield
> shaped with straight edges.
>
> That looked too big and ugly, so I took about a three inch angle cut off
> each edge (started at very edge on bottom, but by top it was three inches
> narrower. That helped a bit. Did it a second time and it looked much
> better. Then dropped down a bit from the top edge and used the compass to
> get a round edge.. that looked pretty good.
>
> Once the template looked okay, the cutting commenced. Thought it would
> take a lot of tries, so I had enough plexiglass to cut about 6 windshields
> out. Read that a Rotozip tool works great to cut plexiglass. Mom gave me
> one last year, never had used it, tried it and have to agree, it really is
> good for cutting plexiglass. Traced the outline of my template, cut off a
> manageable chunk from the 4x8 sheet of plexiglass, put it on a padded
> table with support up pretty close to the cutting line and cut it. It was
> kind of wavy at first, but managed to get the hang of it pretty good and
> allowed enough space outside the line to allow for grinding it to size.
> When I do the second one I am going to find some kind of guide to follow
> to get a straight line, it would save a lot of filing. Anyway it came out
> pretty good, clamped the rough cut piece in to my workmate and used a file
> to get it to what I think will be its final shape. Its quite a bit stiffer
> than I thought, so either its going!
> to have to have strong brackets bending it or I may have to heat it and
> put a bend in it somehow.
>
> Was fun to make, still not done yet. Not sure its a good idea to put the
> windshield on all the way and leave it with so much else to do, may fit it
> remove it and store it till closer to the final assembly time.
>
> Jim
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161005#161005
>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Dutch Pietenpol Project Website |
Every once in a while, I stumble across an interesting website. Here's
my latest find.
It's a Pietenpol project based in Holland. There's not a lot of
supporting text, but there are photos. The woodwork looks different -
very dark. I think maybe the builder has stained the wood, because there
is a photo that shows some loose sticks of wood that are not nearly so
dark. The decking around the cockpits looks very shiny - maybe Formica
or something like that? But there's one very interesting photo - the
engine. It's a six-cylinder Anzani (but again, no written info to
explain). This will be an interesting project to follow.
Hmmm... wonder what the "purists" will have to say about this one. I
know Bernard tried a lot of different powerplants, but I don't recall
reading anything about an Anzani-powered Air Camper.
Oh yeah, I better give you the web link:
http://www.dutchnostalgicwings.nl/eng/index.html
Bill C.
Message 12
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Dick
I will be flying in some cold weather here in CO too and would like to keep
the wind out of my face. Since you are an expert in this area can you tell
us about how high the top of your windscreen is above the top of your head
when you are sitting in your Piet? (Say a line parallel to the top
longerons). No one template will work for everyone since the required
windscreen height depends on the pilot's height and how high he rides in the
saddle (little Colorado slang there). This will help me figure out how high
to make mine.
Thanks
Rick
On Jan 29, 2008 10:18 AM, Dick Navratil <horzpool@goldengate.net> wrote:
> horzpool@goldengate.net>
>
> Jim
> Be sure to hold on to your template just in case. I re- made my
> windscreen
> several times. If it isnt high enough the wind comes over and makes it
> hard
> to talk on the radio. To big and it doesnt look that great. Flying the
> other day in cold temp was comfortable with no wind in the cockpit.
> Dick N.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:30 PM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: windscreens
>
>
> >
> > Never did find a good template, so I ended up making one myself. Took
> some
> > stiff cardboard, curved it about the way I thought it should be, taped
> it
> > so the curve would stay in it. (big rectangle just the middle bowing
> out)
> > and then held it in place over the fuselage at about the right angle for
> a
> > windshield.
> >
> > Used a compass held vertically to trace the profile of the fuselage on
> to
> > the cardboard, then cut the profile out and made a few adjustments to
> get
> > the cardboard to fit well. Then transfered the shape of the bottom of
> the
> > windshield up to the top and cut it off so it was basically windshield
> > shaped with straight edges.
> >
> > That looked too big and ugly, so I took about a three inch angle cut off
> > each edge (started at very edge on bottom, but by top it was three
> inches
> > narrower. That helped a bit. Did it a second time and it looked much
> > better. Then dropped down a bit from the top edge and used the compass
> to
> > get a round edge.. that looked pretty good.
> >
> > Once the template looked okay, the cutting commenced. Thought it would
> > take a lot of tries, so I had enough plexiglass to cut about 6
> windshields
> > out. Read that a Rotozip tool works great to cut plexiglass. Mom gave me
> > one last year, never had used it, tried it and have to agree, it really
> is
> > good for cutting plexiglass. Traced the outline of my template, cut off
> a
> > manageable chunk from the 4x8 sheet of plexiglass, put it on a padded
> > table with support up pretty close to the cutting line and cut it. It
> was
> > kind of wavy at first, but managed to get the hang of it pretty good and
> > allowed enough space outside the line to allow for grinding it to size.
> > When I do the second one I am going to find some kind of guide to follow
> > to get a straight line, it would save a lot of filing. Anyway it came
> out
> > pretty good, clamped the rough cut piece in to my workmate and used a
> file
> > to get it to what I think will be its final shape. Its quite a bit
> stiffer
> > than I thought, so either its going!
> > to have to have strong brackets bending it or I may have to heat it and
> > put a bend in it somehow.
> >
> > Was fun to make, still not done yet. Not sure its a good idea to put the
> > windshield on all the way and leave it with so much else to do, may fit
> it
> > remove it and store it till closer to the final assembly time.
> >
> > Jim
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161005#161005
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
Message 13
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Puracrite. Like a hipocrite. As in mine's not really a purist's Pietenpol,
but your's better be or call it something else?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AmsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Can you define the sense of the term purist?
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: HelsperSew@aol.com
To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Jim,
He can't. Ask any purist.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
----------------
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Go for it Steve. Mine has a 2" wider fuselage, 2' extra span (recommended b
y
two tech advisers), the firewall is moved 6" forward (as recommended by BP)
,
the cabanes raised 2 1/2", and the mains moved forward 2" (as recommended b
y
Bill Rewey). Of course it hasn't flown yet but everything I have done has
been done on flying Pietenpols before.
Rick
On Jan 28, 2008 10:20 PM, Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu> wrote:
> I'm dreaming of another piet=85 this one is going to be a bit oversize.
> I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
>
>
> First off if you're a purist, this isn't going to sit well, my only excus
e
> is that I have built and flown one to the plans (mostly)
>
>
> So hear goes=85
>
>
> Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
> mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out s
o
> far.
>
>
> Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
>
>
> I looked around at other parasol designs and there is the Baking Duce, an
d
> the Fairchild 22. What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22
> with the pietenpol tail=85.
>
>
> Just wondering what you might think of it=85
>
>
> Steve E
>
> Low and Slow Since 1929
>
> Pietenpol Aircamper
>
> steve@byu.edu
>
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
FYI, neither is mine, but its still a Piet, wide body and improved to meet
my needs. Guess what, here's a real surprise I even used epoxy rather than the
purist casein glue, that Bernie and all the other purist used in their
builds. All the purists out there building are using casein glue, aren't they?
Actually, if its not the exact same materials, constructed using the same
techniques and tools, hand saws etc exactly the way Bernie did it than by the
purist definition none can be called a Piet.
However, following the innovative spirit of Bernie its creator and the idea
of it being experimental in nature, design and construction, well you decide.
Which is the pure for the construction and detailed pursuit of purity
duplicating the build to exacting the specifications and materials of following
the
concept of the creation by its creator?
Again one has to define the term and sense of the purest. I am following the
plans and making changes to suit my needs, to quote another builder" its
your airplane , build it the way you want it!
Thanks Michael Cuy and as previously stated in person, I really enjoyed the
video! and looking forward to the day I can park my build next to all the
other quality built ships at Broadhead.
Will the real Pietenpol Aircamper please stand up, till then keep on gluing!
John
In a message dated 1/29/2008 2:17:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
jthursby@tampabay.rr.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "James" <jthursby@tampabay.rr.com>
Puracrite. Like a hipocrite. As in mine's not really a purist's Pietenpol,
but your's better be or call it something else?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
AmsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: AmsafetyC@aol.com
Can you define the sense of the term purist?
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: HelsperSew@aol.com
To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Jim,
He can't. Ask any purist.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
----------------
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
I must chime in here too. I am 6'0 and 265lbs. I made my fuse 4" wider at the front
and the taper gives me enough room at the rear cockpit to fit inside with
extra room! I have also added length for W/b issues....
I will also have added to the wing span and it should be reducing my wing loading
as such.
I am following the plans but making the necessary changes to make sure it accommodates
my frame. Then....am I not a purest? Only because of my size am I making
the necessary adjustments to allow me to enjoy the great plane called pietenpol.
I can see now that my new logo for the "wide body" pietenpol must be completed
for all to see and designate the differences between "standard" and "wide
body" piets.
Ken H
Fargo, ND
Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
Among other interesting observations, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on his
Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and weight,
but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
Dry weight of the 75hp LOM is 152 lb, with the 140 hp model coming in at
249 lb. A 125 hp Menasco C4 Pirate is 284 lb dry. The 150 hp CASA Tigre
IV lists at 264 lb. The 125 hp version is a little lighter, but I can't
find the number at the moment.
I hope Mr. Ducey has beefed up the front end of his Pete-alike. The
weight is fine, but all that horsepower would scare me.
Owen Davies
newly resubscribed, with five wing ribs in the garage and restored
enthusiasm to complete the plane after many years in hibernation
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
---------------------------------
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Great point John, in all the previous Piet-Purist discussions (has to happen
at least once a year) I don't recall anyone mentioning that to be truly
original a Pietenpol must be built with the same tools (or lack thereof) as
BP used. You could even go further and say that to be a 'real' Pietenpol you
must build it with BP's original tools! (wherever they are).
Rick
On Jan 29, 2008 12:56 PM, <AMsafetyC@aol.com> wrote:
> FYI, neither is mine, but its still a Piet, wide body and improved to
> meet my needs. Guess what, here's a real surprise I even used epoxy rather
> than the purist casein glue, that Bernie and all the other purist used in
> their builds. All the purists out there building are using casein glue,
> aren't they?
>
> Actually, if its not the exact same materials, constructed using the same
> techniques and tools, hand saws etc exactly the way Bernie did it than by
> the purist definition none can be called a Piet.
>
> However, following the innovative spirit of Bernie its creator and the
> idea of it being experimental in nature, design and construction, well you
> decide.
>
> Which is the pure for the construction and detailed pursuit of purity
> duplicating the build to exacting the specifications and materials of
> following the concept of the creation by its creator?
>
> Again one has to define the term and sense of the purest. I am following
> the plans and making changes to suit my needs, to quote another builder" its
> your airplane , build it the way you want it!
>
> Thanks Michael Cuy and as previously stated in person, I really enjoyed
> the video! and looking forward to the day I can park my build next to all
> the other quality built ships at Broadhead.
>
> Will the real Pietenpol Aircamper please stand up, till then keep on
> gluing!
>
> John
>
> In a message dated 1/29/2008 2:17:19 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> jthursby@tampabay.rr.com writes:
>
>
> Puracrite. Like a hipocrite. As in mine's not really a purist's
> Pietenpol,
> but your's better be or call it something else?
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
> AmsafetyC@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 11:27 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
>
>
>
> Can you define the sense of the term purist?
>
> John
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>
> Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:46:02
> To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
>
>
> Jim,
>
> He can't. Ask any purist.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp;
> - List Contribution Web Site ;
> ========================
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape<http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489>in the new year.
>
> *
>
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
Message 18
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| Subject: | Any Piet projects in/around Denver? |
I have a 2 week trip to Denver coming up......
If there's anyone in the area, please contact me offlist and let's get
together!
Jim Markle
Pryor, OK
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
Ken,
I am eagerly awaiting the logo design of the wide body . As I too have
widened mine to accommodate me and any additional clothing I choose to wear. I
fit
in the standard width naked and greased. I rather prefer to wear clothing
when flying mine as it makes purchasing fuel a lot less hazardous and certainly
less comical, not wanting to be the butt of FBO jokes I am certain you can
appreciate my situation.
So bring it on my man! and lets see what the wide body Logo looks like!
John
In a message dated 1/29/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
kmheidecpo@yahoo.com writes:
I must chime in here too. I am 6'0 and 265lbs. I made my fuse 4" wider at
the front and the taper gives me enough room at the rear cockpit to fit inside
with extra room! I have also added length for W/b issues....
I will also have added to the wing span and it should be reducing my wing
loading as such.
I am following the plans but making the necessary changes to make sure it
accommodates my frame. Then....am I not a purest? Only because of my size am I
making the necessary adjustments to allow me to enjoy the great plane called
pietenpol. I can see now that my new logo for the "wide body" pietenpol must
be completed for all to see and designate the differences between "standard"
and "wide body" piets.
Ken H
Fargo, ND
Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies
Among other interesting observations, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre
on his Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power
and weight, but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
Dry weight of the 75hp LOM is 152 lb, with the 140 hp model coming in at
249 lb. A 125 hp Menasco C4 Pirate is 284 lb dry. The 150 hp CASA Tigre
IV lists at 264 lb. The 125 hp version is a little lighter, but I can't
find the number at the moment.
I hope Mr. Ducey has beefed up the front end of his Pete-alike. The
weight is fine, but all that horsepower would scare me.
Owen Davies
newly resubscribed, with five wing ribs in the garage and restored
enthusiasm to complete the plane after many years in color=#0000ff>Kenneth
M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
Could it be called a FrankenPiet or a Pietenstein?
Steve Dortch
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
> Ken,
>
> I am eagerly awaiting the logo design of the wide body . As I too
> have
> widened mine to accommodate me and any additional clothing I
> choose to wear. I fit
> in the standard width naked and greased. I rather prefer to wear
> clothing
> when flying mine as it makes purchasing fuel a lot less hazardous
> and certainly
> less comical, not wanting to be the butt of FBO jokes I am certain
> you can
> appreciate my situation.
>
> So bring it on my man! and lets see what the wide body Logo looks
> like!
> John
>
>
> In a message dated 1/29/2008 3:24:53 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> kmheidecpo@yahoo.com writes:
>
> I must chime in here too. I am 6'0 and 265lbs. I made my fuse 4"
> wider at
> the front and the taper gives me enough room at the rear cockpit
> to fit inside
> with extra room! I have also added length for W/b issues....
>
> I will also have added to the wing span and it should be reducing
> my wing
> loading as such.
>
> I am following the plans but making the necessary changes to make
> sure it
> accommodates my frame. Then....am I not a purest? Only because of
> my size am I
> making the necessary adjustments to allow me to enjoy the great
> plane called
> pietenpol. I can see now that my new logo for the "wide body"
> pietenpol must
> be completed for all to see and designate the differences between
> "standard"
> and "wide body" piets.
>
> Ken H
> Fargo, ND
>
> Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies
>
> Among other interesting observations, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> > You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing,
> putting a Tigre
> on his Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the
> Tigre for power
> and weight, but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
> Dry weight of the 75hp LOM is 152 lb, with the 140 hp model
> coming in at
> 249 lb. A 125 hp Menasco C4 Pirate is 284 lb dry. The 150 hp CASA
> Tigre
> IV lists at 264 lb. The 125 hp version is a little lighter, but I
> can't
> find the number at the moment.
>
> I hope Mr. Ducey has beefed up the front end of his Pete-alike.
> The
> weight is fine, but all that horsepower would scare me.
>
> Owen Davies
> newly resubscribed, with five wing ribs in the garage and
> restored
> enthusiasm to complete the plane after many years in
> color=#0000ff>Kenneth
> M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
>
>
>
>
>
> (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
> (http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
> shape.
> http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
>
Message 21
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John wrote:
I fit in the standard width naked and greased.
John,
Please do us all a favor and NOT share with us the details of how you
know this to be true.
DO NOT ARCHIVE
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
Hi,
125hp would scare you? Its slow RPM horsepower, which is good.
My plane is a GN-1 with the St. Croix Biplane conversion.. its has a 4130 tube
frame and is pretty stout, don't think 125hp should be a problem. I am a larger
person myself, at 6ft 1", and 250+ lbs. The plane fits kind of tight, I will
be moving some of the tubing for the passenger seat to accomodate my legs better,
otherwise its to the GN-1 plans. Well the fuselage is, the tail is JN-4
shaped.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161186#161186
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Dutch Pietenpol Project Website |
http://www.pietenpolclub.co.uk/default.htm
You might like above link. Its pretty cool.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161189#161189
Message 24
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Hi,
I thought about it a bit, we are talking about .040 where .016 was indicated for
the top wing. The plane will fly without the lower wing. May end up going wood,
as I think all the nails used with aluminum will be a pain to keep from working
there way up through the cloth when it is covered.
Haven't put it on yet, may still go wood. Going to a fabric covering class next
weekend, fixing the leading edge will probably be focus before long.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161192#161192
Message 25
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| Subject: | Markle in Denver |
Beware if you let Jim visit your project in Denver. This man is a
four-flusher, a charlatan, a pick-pocket, thief, and supposed
member of the mafia. He might seem like a nice guy on the surface but
hide your wife, jewels, and other items of worth
when he visits. Check the post office for likenesses of him
too.....just in case.
Jim's friend,
Mike C.
Message 26
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Click on the video...
www.aerosite.net
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
---------------------------------
Message 27
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Jim,
You're planning to use .040" where .016" is called for?
The leading edge wrap is approximately 9" wide (per Pietenpol plans) x 28
feet long. That's about 21 square feet of area.
.016" aluminum weighs about .224 lb/sq.ft.
.040" aluminum weighs about .563 lb/sq.ft.
1/16" plywood weighs around .25 lb/sq.ft (roughly the same as the .016"
aluminum)
So, based on the above data, the .016" aluminum or the 1/16" ply skin will
weigh less than 5 pounds. The .040" aluminum skin will weigh almost 12
pounds. This is all before nails. Do you really want an extra 7 pounds, with
no real benefit?
Bill C.
Message 28
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HI Guys,
I am a Bernard Pietenpol "purist". The definition of this is:
You must built EXACTLY according to one of Bernard's official plans (or
existing airplanes) with no deviations except the ones I put in there. You must
use only the engines authorized by Bernard, to be privileged to attach the
Pietenpol name to your airplane except for the minor variations that I have
incorporated. Only the construction materials and processes available to Bernard
ar
e to be used except for the ones that were too hard or inconvenient for me
to duplicate in today's modern world.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL
**************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
Message 29
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| Subject: | Markle in Denver |
Mike; I think you must have met Jim's evil twin if you're talking about the swindling,
cheating guy. Sure, you have to watch out for the evil twin but not Jim.
Jim actually bought me not one, but TWO beers when he visited San Antonio
last month! 'Course I had to sit and listen to his lies about some farm that
he supposedly lives on, raises chickens, all that kind of country talk as well
as wild ideas for his Pietenpol. Maybe he will call his Piet "Fried Chicken",
NX899FC... that would make a cool logo for the fuselage (where is DJ when you
need him!?)
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
jimd wrote:
> 125hp would scare you? Its slow RPM horsepower, which is good.
>
Which is to say that it probably feeds a whole lot more force back to
the airframe than those miniature Lycontisaurus horses would.
> My plane is a GN-1 with the St. Croix Biplane conversion.. its has a 4130 tube
frame and is pretty stout, don't think 125hp should be a problem.
Ah. That should make it work, I guess, especially if you are using 4130.
As we've all heard, it was way overbuilt for a Ford A even with whatever
random tubing was available locally. Assuming a wood frame, I was
inclined to suggest naming it the "Ducey Dicey!" I'll be eager to hear
how it performs.
Best of luck.
Owen
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Any Piet projects in/around Denver? |
Jim
In spite of all those bad things Mike and Oscar say about you I would still
love you come on down to Castle Rock and check out my project (just South of
Denver about 10 miles). Have my airframe mostly done and am working on the
Corvair engine. Will send you my info. Piet builders are rather rare around
these here parts, it will be fun.
Rick
On Jan 29, 2008 1:42 PM, Jim Markle <jim_markle@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I have a 2 week trip to Denver coming up......
>
> If there's anyone in the area, please contact me offlist and let's get
> together!
>
> Jim Markle
> Pryor, OK
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
Message 32
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Jim I personally would go with plywood. Aluminum WILL DENT, plywood won't. Also
ply adds strength, and unless aluminum is bonded (glued) it offers no strength
whatsoever. And you are right on the money with the nails working back out.
I even try to pull all the nails I can out of my wooden structures, because
of bumps in fabric, and they will eventually start to rust and create rot.
Just my 2 cents
Shad
---------------------------------
Message 33
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| Subject: | Markle in Denver |
In all seriousness, if anyone is in Colorado and has the time, I would encourage
them to visit or call John Dilatush in Salida, Colorado. Southwest of Denver
and a nice drive unless it's snowy. I'll bet it would be fun to sit and talk
with John about "Mountain Piet". He's one sharp Pietenpoler and knows what
he's talking about when it comes to operating out of high altitude airports, and
his airplane will always be a classic example of a purpose-built Piet tweaked
to fly in those conditions.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Markle in Denver |
The West Coast Pietenpol Builders Conference was held recently and we
invited the esteemed Pietenpol ambassador Jim Markle to be our guest
speaker. Well actually come to think of it he invited himself. Anyway, as
you can see from the attached picture, all of us in attendance had a great
time listening to Jim's stories of seeing, touching and actually flying a
real Pietenpol. He seemed like a nice guy but after he left I did notice a
lot of pizza and lots of chocolate chip cookies were missing. None of us
builders would have eaten such things in fear of loosing our climb rate but
Jim's not really building anymore as he is on the road spreading the good
word about Pietenpols. What a wonderful sacrifice he is making on our
behalf. About the only thing bad he had to say was my garage was to clean.
I tried to explain I had cleaned in honor of his visit, but I think he was
eyeing the cookies by then. We all greatly appreciated him sacrificing his
sleep so he could visit us.
I say if you get the chance to have him over you wont be sorry. The women
and children will be fine just hide the cookies. We had so much fun we are
now planning on having a Spring Builders conference. So all you west coast
builders, that would be all five of you, mark your calendars. Maybe we can
get Oscar to fly 41CC over here for a practice cross country. Or perhaps
"Forever Young" Mike Cuy should fly over to rebuke Jim's stories.
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 3:16 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Markle in Denver
>
>
> Mike; I think you must have met Jim's evil twin if you're talking about
> the swindling, cheating guy. Sure, you have to watch out for the evil
> twin but not Jim. Jim actually bought me not one, but TWO beers when he
> visited San Antonio last month! 'Course I had to sit and listen to his
> lies about some farm that he supposedly lives on, raises chickens, all
> that kind of country talk as well as wild ideas for his Pietenpol. Maybe
> he will call his Piet "Fried Chicken", NX899FC... that would make a cool
> logo for the fuselage (where is DJ when you need him!?)
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
>
Message 35
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 (Steve Eldredge) |
Hey Steve,
Love the idea! I made my fuselage 2" wider and 3" longer front pit forward
and 2" in the rear cockpit. I sat in a GN and my old eyes wouldn't focus o
n the gauges!! I'm realizing that each little change ripples throughout the
rest of the build, but I believe it'll be worth it in the end.
Also love the engine idea, I'd love to go with the radial like Dick's, but
and A65 is going on mine for now. Good to see your excitement about Piets
again - you're pretty doggone resilient!! Go for it!
Mike Cuy: Are you out there? I tried to email you direct, but maybe I got
caught in a junk mail filter? When you get a moment, give me a holler off l
ist - my regular old email address. You were right on my progress. I'm work
ing on install the gas tank, get wheels from Buchanan's, make up tons or ta
ilfeather brace wires and get ready to move on to the center section and wi
ngs. I've got a head of steam again - it feels really good!
Talk to you guys later!
Gary Meadows
Spring, TX
_________________________________________________________________
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
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08
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| Subject: | Re: Markle in Denver |
You know I have met Jim a few times at the end of each meeting we shook hands as
expected. After we turned away I found myself counting my fingers.
I suggest you do the same one never knows what he is capable of. A down home accent
a smile a hand shake and poof he's walking away with your fingers in his
pocket. I bet he could become our next.........
Jim Markle for president.... Vote Jimmy in November!
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov>
To:<pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Markle in Denver
Beware if you let Jim visit your project in Denver. This man is a four-flusher,
a charlatan, a pick-pocket, thief, and supposed
member of the mafia. He might seem like a nice guy on the surface but hide your
wife, jewels, and other items of worth
when he visits. Check the post office for likenesses of him too.....just in case.
Jim's friend,
Mike C.
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
It is a sad tale I found my self on this small obscure road just past the pryor
Oklahoma. When I came upon a nice little spread owned by a Texas chicken farmer.
I pulled into the drive way and was promptly greeted by this rather tall farmer
type in bib overalls. The farmer invited me to see a project he was working
on, intrigud I agreed to follow him to his work shop where he had the makins
of an airplane he told me he was building a model A Pietenpol, and yes he sure
was. He offered me a beer or two and soon offered me a chance to sit in his
airplane. Well the first try didn't go so well. He suggested I remove some of
the bulky clothing soon I was naked then he handed me some grease suggesting
it as an approved method. Next think I knew I was in the rear pit seated and
making the flying noise. I turned back to tell the farmer it worked only to
find Markle running down the drive way with my cloths in hand laughing as he took
off with all my belongings wallet keys cash an all.
Embarrasing as it was I learned a valuable lesson about Piets and friendly farmers.
Sorry to have to put you all through the tale the Dr said it would get easier each
time I tell it One step at a time he says I got 11 more to go
Wow I feel better now for sharing
Thanks
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
To:<pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
John wrote:
I fit in the standard width naked and greased.
John,
Please do us all a favor andNOT share withus the details of how you know this to
be true.
Message 38
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Rick
You are right, no one dimension would be the same for all. Sit in your
plane with your flying helmet on. The top of the windscreen should be
at least parallel with the top of your head. The overall height of the
lexan on mine is 19" as I recall. But as it is cocked back at about 35
degrees I dont know what the clearance is to the the bottom of the
center section of the wing, not that yours would be the same.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick Holland
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: windscreens
Dick
I will be flying in some cold weather here in CO too and would like to
keep the wind out of my face. Since you are an expert in this area can
you tell us about how high the top of your windscreen is above the top
of your head when you are sitting in your Piet? (Say a line parallel to
the top longerons). No one template will work for everyone since the
required windscreen height depends on the pilot's height and how high he
rides in the saddle (little Colorado slang there). This will help me
figure out how high to make mine.
Thanks
Rick
On Jan 29, 2008 10:18 AM, Dick Navratil <horzpool@goldengate.net>
wrote:
<horzpool@goldengate.net>
Jim
Be sure to hold on to your template just in case. I re- made my
windscreen
several times. If it isnt high enough the wind comes over and makes
it hard
to talk on the radio. To big and it doesnt look that great. Flying
the
other day in cold temp was comfortable with no wind in the cockpit.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jimd" <jlducey@hotmail.com>
To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 10:30 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: windscreens
>
> Never did find a good template, so I ended up making one myself.
Took some
> stiff cardboard, curved it about the way I thought it should be,
taped it
> so the curve would stay in it. (big rectangle just the middle
bowing out)
> and then held it in place over the fuselage at about the right
angle for a
> windshield.
>
> Used a compass held vertically to trace the profile of the
fuselage on to
> the cardboard, then cut the profile out and made a few adjustments
to get
> the cardboard to fit well. Then transfered the shape of the bottom
of the
> windshield up to the top and cut it off so it was basically
windshield
> shaped with straight edges.
>
> That looked too big and ugly, so I took about a three inch angle
cut off
> each edge (started at very edge on bottom, but by top it was three
inches
> narrower. That helped a bit. Did it a second time and it looked
much
> better. Then dropped down a bit from the top edge and used the
compass to
> get a round edge.. that looked pretty good.
>
> Once the template looked okay, the cutting commenced. Thought it
would
> take a lot of tries, so I had enough plexiglass to cut about 6
windshields
> out. Read that a Rotozip tool works great to cut plexiglass. Mom
gave me
> one last year, never had used it, tried it and have to agree, it
really is
> good for cutting plexiglass. Traced the outline of my template,
cut off a
> manageable chunk from the 4x8 sheet of plexiglass, put it on a
padded
> table with support up pretty close to the cutting line and cut it.
It was
> kind of wavy at first, but managed to get the hang of it pretty
good and
> allowed enough space outside the line to allow for grinding it to
size.
> When I do the second one I am going to find some kind of guide to
follow
> to get a straight line, it would save a lot of filing. Anyway it
came out
> pretty good, clamped the rough cut piece in to my workmate and
used a file
> to get it to what I think will be its final shape. Its quite a bit
stiffer
> than I thought, so either its going!
> to have to have strong brackets bending it or I may have to heat
it and
> put a bend in it somehow.
>
> Was fun to make, still not done yet. Not sure its a good idea to
put the
> windshield on all the way and leave it with so much else to do,
may fit it
> remove it and store it till closer to the final assembly time.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161005#161005
--
Rick Holland
ObjectAge Ltd.
Castle Rock, Colorado
Message 39
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More funny is picturing you spending 90 min typing this story in with your thumbs
on the blackberry.
Stevee
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AmsafetyC@aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
It is a sad tale I found my self on this small obscure road just past the pryor
Oklahoma. When I came upon a nice little spread owned by a Texas chicken farmer.
I pulled into the drive way and was promptly greeted by this rather tall farmer
type in bib overalls. The farmer invited me to see a project he was working
on, intrigud I agreed to follow him to his work shop where he had the makins
of an airplane he told me he was building a model A Pietenpol, and yes he sure
was. He offered me a beer or two and soon offered me a chance to sit in his
airplane. Well the first try didn't go so well. He suggested I remove some of
the bulky clothing soon I was naked then he handed me some grease suggesting
it as an approved method. Next think I knew I was in the rear pit seated and
making the flying noise. I turned back to tell the farmer it worked only to
find Markle running down the drive way with my cloths in hand laughing as he took
off with all my belongings wallet keys cash an a!
ll.
Embarrasing as it was I learned a valuable lesson about Piets and friendly farmers.
Sorry to have to put you all through the tale the Dr said it would get easier each
time I tell it One step at a time he says I got 11 more to go
Wow I feel better now for sharing
Thanks
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
To:<pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
John wrote:
I fit in the standard width naked and greased.
John,
Please do us all a favor and NOT share with us the details of how you know this
to be true.
Message 40
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Thanks for the insight into the Fairchild Jack. I'm ordering the drawings
off a guy on ebay. Should be good for study. I'm putting together a list
of things I liked about my 10 years of piet flying, and those that I'd like
changed. I have the bug to design my own as part of the fun, so hey why n
ot build a bigger piet? Maybe in 80 years a bunch of guys will spend their
day jawboning about purist 'Super Piet's'
Steve E.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Phillips, Jack
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
I say go for it, Steve. Bill Rewey has talked for years about wanting to b
uild a "Super" Piet. He was wanting to make the wing 3' longer. I'd go ev
en further and make it at least 4' more, to get the wing loading down to so
mething close to that of a J-3 (7.15 lb/sq ft). My Piet at gross has a win
g loading of almost 8 lbs/sq ft. The old rule of thumb for airplanes was:
If the wing loading in lbs/sq ft and the power loading in lbs/hp added up
to more than 25, you've got a sluggish climbing airplane. My Piet at 1195
lbs gross (full fuel, me and a 160 lb passenger) has a wing loading of 7.97
lbs/sq ft and a power loading of 18.38, for a total of 26.35. Loaded like
that, I get a good solid 100 ft/min climb rate. With a bigger wing and the
power of that LOM engine you should be able to get it well under 25 total.
I've flown a Fairchild 22 and can honestly say that a Pietenpol is a better
flying airplane. Those full span ailerons on the Fairchild seem to contri
bute little but adverse yaw. Visibility on the ground is worse, too (but t
he Fairchild 22 I've been flying has a radial engine, which requires S-turn
ing to see around when taxiing). The Farchild is much heavier on the contr
ols. Cool airplane, though.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Eldredge
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 12:21 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize. I
'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
First off if you're a purist, this isn't going to sit well, my only excuse
is that I have built and flown one to the plans (mostly)
So hear goes...
Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG moun
ted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.
Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
I looked around at other parasol designs and there is the Baking Duce, and
the Fairchild 22. What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 w
ith the pietenpol tail....
Just wondering what you might think of it...
Steve E
Low and Slow Since 1929
Pietenpol Aircamper
steve@byu.edu<mailto:steve@byu.edu>
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 41
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
So who own's Corky's 1CC? anyone on the list? I don't remember hearing much about
it...
Steve E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:38 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
Steveee wrote-
>I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize.
>I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
Well, given that this is the Piet list, you're going to get opinions that are biased
towards the Piet!
>Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
>mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.
You're imagining something along the lines of Corky's NX31CC, the "Southern Comfort"
(for those who desire/require a bit more room to stretch out).
>Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on his
Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and weight,
but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
>What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 with the pietenpol tail....
Now there you go making a Frankenstein out of two perfectly good airplanes ;o)
If you want to take the time and effort to figure out how to make it all work,
more power to ya but you'll be out there plowing new ground.
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 42
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
Well...so much for "what happens on the farm..stays on the farm..."
-----Original Message-----
>From: AmsafetyC@aol.com
>Sent: Jan 29, 2008 10:35 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
>
>
>It is a sad tale I found my self on this small obscure road just past the pryor
Oklahoma. When I came upon a nice little spread owned by a Texas chicken farmer.
I pulled into the drive way and was promptly greeted by this rather tall
farmer type in bib overalls. The farmer invited me to see a project he was working
on, intrigud I agreed to follow him to his work shop where he had the makins
of an airplane he told me he was building a model A Pietenpol, and yes he
sure was. He offered me a beer or two and soon offered me a chance to sit in his
airplane. Well the first try didn't go so well. He suggested I remove some
of the bulky clothing soon I was naked then he handed me some grease suggesting
it as an approved method. Next think I knew I was in the rear pit seated and
making the flying noise. I turned back to tell the farmer it worked only to
find Markle running down the drive way with my cloths in hand laughing as he
took off with all my belongings wallet keys cash an a
!
> ll.
>
>Embarrasing as it was I learned a valuable lesson about Piets and friendly farmers.
>
>Sorry to have to put you all through the tale the Dr said it would get easier
each time I tell it One step at a time he says I got 11 more to go
>
>Wow I feel better now for sharing
>
>Thanks
>
>John
>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
>
>Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 16:25:22
>To:<pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet
>
>
>
>John wrote:
>
>I fit in the standard width naked and greased.
>
>
>John,
>Please do us all a favor and NOT share with us the details of how you know this
to be true.
>
>
>
>
Message 43
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| Subject: | Oversize piet or Fairchild 22 |
Steve,
I have Corky's second project (his 31CC). I don't use that number in my ID, because
that registration number expired and was taken before I bought the project
and could renew it. Corky told me he thought it had expired, and he was right.
(A guy with a Baron had it earlier, then relapsed, before Corky had it,
and he got it when Corky let it drop.) I have registered NX44TT. When the project
looks more like an airplane, and I feel more like it is really my project
now, I will start using that ID in my emails, as well as using 31CC, Corky's
former ID, to help other builders foot with emails of Corky, Oscar, and myself.
I have not done much with the project, certainly less than I have wanted, for I
have had various ailments and several surgeries, esp. since 6-07. I have enoyed
every minute of working and thinking of working on the plane, but physically
some of it has felt like a root canal from the knees down, if that makes any
sense. In any event, I think I am now getting better, and intend to finish
the project and fly it. I have been active on this board for years, and treasure
the inputs of those with great Piet smarts and experience. I have tried to
pay back with whatever insights I have, and have found it all rewarding.
To the best of my knowledge, this project is a stock long-fuze Corvair, except:
-- the fuze is 3 inches wider at the pilot's seatback;
-- the LG mains are moved forward a few inches;
-- the MM is 3" longer than plans for a Continental (an A-65 from Corky).
Corky had cut the spars to BP length. I would like another 2 feet of wingspan
for my greater weight, but I likely will not do anythng about that, except to
try to pick up some airfoil shaped upper surface at the wingtips (hopefully add
a little lift, cut a little drag).
Otherwise, ribs are BP design, spars are 3/4" solid SS, tailwheel is Model T axle,
split springed Cub-like LG mains. Corky built a good plane.
I am 6'1" and weigh 260 lbs. I can get in and out of the plane easily (with steps)
and have plenty of room in the cockpit once in, except for legroom as Corky
had controls configured. [The "steps" today are a short stepstool, but I will
have two steps on the port side for the pilot, when doone.] Moreover, after
I have finished moving the rudder pedals forward and opening the passages in
the plywood for my shins (and 14H shoes), I will fit very well in the plane.
FYI, my great bulk fits in a standard short fuze Piet, even without Chuck Gantzer's
baby oil, but only barefooted, and then my elbows greatly hang out, or otherwise
my hands are possibly hitting the instrument panel. A normal person without
a big fat a____ and with arms shorter than my 36" sleeves would likely
not have such problems. Still, I recommend the long fuze for anyone, period.
I have a goal to weigh 225 by Labor Day, and started an exercise program yesterday--
the first since the first surgery relevant to current problems (6-6-07).
It felt pretty good then and again today. OTOH, I am finishing the plane to
accomodate as much as 270 lbs.-- me, boots and winter clothes-- in the pilot
seat. According to my calculations, oon this project, each 25# of increased pilot
weight moves the CG 1" aft. I hope to add MM length and build it for only
slightly reclined cabanes, assuming 225 lb. pilot weight, then adjust the cabanes
to saccommodate the realities of my gross weight, as needed.
Hope this answers your questions. As is often the case, it is likely way more
than you wanted to know, but I am trying to anticipate both your interests and
questions, as well as those of others on the board.
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu>
>Sent: Jan 29, 2008 10:04 PM
>To: "pietenpol-list@matronics.com" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
>
>
>So who own's Corky's 1CC? anyone on the list? I don't remember hearing much
about it...
>
>Steve E
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga
>Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2008 7:38 AM
>To: Pietenpol List
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Oversize piet or Fairchild 22
>
>
>
>Steveee wrote-
>
>>I'm dreaming of another piet... this one is going to be a bit oversize.
>>I'm just wondering what the piet group would think about a few things.
>
>Well, given that this is the Piet list, you're going to get opinions that are
biased towards the Piet!
>
>>Imagine a Piet with 2' more wing, 1' more fuse 3" wider. Wings and LG
>>mounted slightly aft of plans, deeper fuselage so your not sticking out so far.
>
>You're imagining something along the lines of Corky's NX31CC, the "Southern Comfort"
(for those who desire/require a bit more room to stretch out).
>
>>Now imagine a LOM inverted engine with a sleek longish cowl.
>
>You're imagining something like what Jim Ducey is doing, putting a Tigre on his
Piet. Not sure how the Menasco and LOM compare to the Tigre for power and weight,
but you're in the same ballpark design-wise.
>
>>What is cooking up in my mind is something like a F-22 with the pietenpol tail....
>
>Now there you go making a Frankenstein out of two perfectly good airplanes ;o)
If you want to take the time and effort to figure out how to make it all work,
more power to ya but you'll be out there plowing new ground.
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
Message 44
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| Subject: | Butt rib covering |
I am covering the wings right now and part of the stitts manual doesn't
seem to really apply to the Piet 3 piece wing. The pictures and text
refer to the butt rib as a mostly solid rib where ours are an open
lattice without much to anchor fabric to and allot of areas of fabric to
be cut away around spars and cable runs. Did those of you who have
covered your planes cut it off flush with the end of the 1/16 ply on top
of the rib or did you carry it all the way across the rib as in the
stitts manual? I have about a foot hanging over now so I can go either
way.
-Scott
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
Owen,
Nothing dicey about my plane.
The St. Croix Pietenpol Aerial.. which is what the biplane part of the design comes
from, suggest 85-150hp engines. The W&B is fine on it. The motor mounts for
the ENMA Tigre are impressive, look like they could handle 300hp. The frame
is solid, built by an A&P with 30 yrs experience, my technical counselor (also
an A&P) was impressed with the construction, so I have no concerns about those
things.
I was concerned about my skill for covering the wings, as there are a lot of fittings,
and wing area (just over 250 sq ft) to cover, so I am taking a 3 day class,
have already gone through a 5 DVD video course on it, have gone through
the EAA video on it and the PolyFiber manual. Suspect it will turn out fine.
How will it perform, well we will see when it flys, however it should end up weighing
about 750lbs empty, with 250 sq ft of wing and 125hp, that should make
for SuperCub take-offs, with enough drag to make a comfortable 65-70 cruise for
an open air two hole biplane. Max speed should be around 95-100mph.
Then engine is a well built aircraft engine, not a converted car engine, the basic
airframe is Grega GN-1, a proven design, the biplane conversion has been done
to quite a few planes. If I seem hesitant and concerned in my posts, well
it is part of my personality more so than a reflection on my view of the project.
I think anyone wanting to get snooty about a plane being a "frankenpiet", has a
petty attitude.
According to the Grega website, John Grega didn't set out to pervert the Pietenpol,
he wanted to be able to put a passenger in the front seat easier, and hang
a modern engine off the Piet, and ended up making a number of changes to accomplish
that end.
Chad Wille's Pietenpol Aerial has a similar story, he wanted to make a biplane
version of a Piet, that modified the original as little as possible. The lower
wing attaches to the same fittings that the lift stuts used, the remainder of
the rigging is as minimally invasive as possible, an existing Piet could be converted
pretty easily.
I didn't start out wanting a white elephant of an airplane, had a lot of J-3 Cub
time and wanted a Cub. Then looked at Piet's as they were more affordable, and
open cockpit. Watching a video of someone get in the front seat, made me think
I might want a GN-1, and then as I was looking for a GN-1 or Piet project,
my biplane GN-1 project showed up and not only met all my criteria, it blew them
away. While I wanted a J-3, I think I will end up with something I wouldn't
trade for a SuperCub.
To each his own,
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=161293#161293
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| Subject: | Re: Oversize piet |
jimd wrote:
> The St. Croix Pietenpol Aerial.. which is what the biplane part of the design
comes from, suggest 85-150hp engines. The W&B is fine on it.
I'd never looked into the Aerial. Didn't know it was rated for so much
power.
Weight and balance didn't worry me. I know the engine from years of
fascination with the Bucker Jungmann. The weight comes out almost
exactly the same for the 150-hp Tigre as for a Ford A with radiator. I
can't remember the weight difference between the 150 and the 125, but
the smaller engine certainly won't be any heavier.
> The motor mounts for the ENMA Tigre are impressive, look like they could handle
300hp. The frame is solid, built by an A&P with 30 yrs experience, my technical
counselor (also an A&P) was impressed with the construction, so I have no
concerns about those things.
>
Ditto. They've held up for years under the abuse of both serious
aerobatic pilots and ham-fisted students students in the Spanish air
force. It was the pounding a Tigre would give the Piet's wood airframe
that worried me, and now that I know you are using the steel version
it's not an issue.
> I think anyone wanting to get snooty about a plane being a "frankenpiet", has
a petty attitude.
>
I agree. Come to think of it, if I ever build the low-wing Piet
knock-off that keeps drifting around the back of my mind, maybe I'll
name it the Frankenpiet. I kind of like it. (We used to have a Colt. I
outraged my wife by suggesting that we name it the "Mustang Minus.")
Incidentally, if you have not already done so you might want to check in
with the Bucker community. No one else has nearly that much experience
with Tigre engines.
I drifted away from that world when it became clear that a Bucker was
not in my foreseeable future, but eight or ten years ago there were two
schools of thought about the Tigre. Some Bucker pilots did not want to
get any farther than gliding distance from the runway with it. Others
thought it was a fine engine.
Actually, there was a third group. They thought it was probably a good
engine hampered by the fact that no one really knew how to run and
maintain it. At that point, no one had translated the manuals for it.
Unless you understood technical Spanish or knew someone who did, you
were SOL. If someone has produced a translation since then, it should
make the Tigre a much more viable choice.
Which leaves me with two questions: How much does a Tigre cost these
days, and where can I get one? There must be something I can do with it,
even within the limits of Sport Pilot, which is where I'm stuck these days.
Again, all success with your project.
Owen
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