---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/20/08: 54 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:04 AM - Re: which is older ? () 2. 05:18 AM - Re: New Finished Fuel Tank (Bill Church) 3. 05:37 AM - Re: GN1 - Status Plans (James) 4. 05:51 AM - Re: GN1 - Status Plans (jhubbard) 5. 06:07 AM - prop for A75 (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 06:11 AM - O-200 on a Piet (Oscar Zuniga) 7. 06:18 AM - Explosion (HelsperSew@aol.com) 8. 06:40 AM - Re: New guy jig question (Bill Church) 9. 07:00 AM - Re: Explosion (MikeD) 10. 07:02 AM - Re: prop for A75 (MikeD) 11. 07:04 AM - Re: GN1 - Status Plans (bhassel) 12. 07:06 AM - Piet - GN! differences (bhassel) 13. 07:11 AM - Re: Newbie with the usual annoying questions (Bill Church) 14. 07:22 AM - Re: New guy jig question (chase143) 15. 07:35 AM - Re: Piet - GN! differences (Gary Boothe) 16. 07:44 AM - Re: Piet - GN! differences (Phillips, Jack) 17. 08:25 AM - Re: Tapered Spar Scare (John Hofmann) 18. 08:46 AM - Re: Piet - GN! differences (Bill Church) 19. 09:41 AM - Piet building (Dick Navratil) 20. 10:55 AM - Re: New Finished Fuel Tank (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 21. 11:03 AM - Re: Explosion (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 22. 12:02 PM - Spruce Purchase (chase143) 23. 12:34 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (HelsperSew@aol.com) 24. 12:38 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (Phillips, Jack) 25. 01:17 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (chase143) 26. 01:23 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (Catdesigns) 27. 01:33 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (Catdesigns) 28. 01:47 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (chase143) 29. 01:53 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (Ryan Mueller) 30. 02:01 PM - Re: New Finished Fuel Tank (Bill Church) 31. 02:24 PM - Re: Explosion (Dick Navratil) 32. 03:15 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (walt evans) 33. 03:46 PM - Re: New Finished Fuel Tank (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 34. 03:49 PM - Re: Explosion (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 35. 05:16 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (Glenn Thomas) 36. 05:43 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase (VAHOWDY@aol.com) 37. 05:46 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Gary Boothe) 38. 05:46 PM - Re: Explosion (Gary Boothe) 39. 06:11 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Rick Holland) 40. 06:39 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 41. 06:40 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (jimboyer@hughes.net) 42. 06:46 PM - Re: New Finished Fuel Tank (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 43. 06:47 PM - Spruce Purchase: (Bill Princell) 44. 06:59 PM - Re: Piet building (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 45. 07:00 PM - Re: Re: Tapered Spar Scare (AmsafetyC@aol.com) 46. 07:19 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Owen Davies) 47. 07:25 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Clif Dawson) 48. 07:42 PM - Re: Spruce Purchase: (Brian Kraut) 49. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Gary Boothe) 50. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Gary Boothe) 51. 07:42 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Gary Boothe) 52. 07:59 PM - Re: Re: Tapered Spar Scare (John Hofmann) 53. 08:14 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Owen Davies) 54. 09:24 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Purchase (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:04:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: which is older ? From: That's very funny!Mike Cuy is the answer!He's old as the hills! ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: February 19, 2008 4:03 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: which is older ? I've attached my latest photo to help you answer, Harvey. Ahem..... Hey Harvey..... Test question....Which is older? A- Mike Cuy B- Harvey C- 80 HP Franklin ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:18:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank From: "Bill Church" Ken, Your new tank weighs in at around 35 pounds? Try weighing it WITHOUT fuel. Seriously, though, that sounds really heavy. Assuming your tank was made of .051" aluminum (many build from .040, but .051 is a bit easier to weld), and assuming dimensions of roughly 24" wide x 24" deep x 15" long (which is probably bigger than the real thing), the aluminum is goung to weigh somewhere around say, 16 -18 pounds. Add some baffles and a filler cap and you should still be well inder 20 pounds. What thickness is your tank made of? Bill C. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:17 AM PST US From: "James" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: GN1 - Status Plans I have a set I might part with. Jim -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: Monday, February 18, 2008 11:47 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: GN1 - Status Plans Does anyone know the status or availability of getting the plans for the GN1? The web site appears broke and a previous post seems to lead to the conclusion that the plans are no longer for sale. Does anyone have a set of plans that they wish to sell? Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=164805#164805 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:12 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: GN1 - Status Plans From: "jhubbard" It is my understanding that the primary difference with the GN-1 is that it used a Cub wing and gear. Is that correct? If so, how does this change the performance? Any first hand experience? Jeff -------- "One boy is one boy, two boys is half a boy, and three boys ain't no boy at all." My Great Grandmother, whenever my cousins and I got together. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165179#165179 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:14 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: prop for A75 Now don't get your 75s tangled up. There is an A-75 and there is a C-75. The A-75 is what we've been discussing but someone mentioned the C-75 and that's a different engine. It has a larger bore and many other differences from the A-75, but for the purposes of determining which prop to use (the subject of this thread), the C-75 develops its rated HP at a far lower speed... 2275 RPM, as opposed to the A-75 which needs to spin 2600 to develop rated power. All of that info is conveniently found on the Fly Baby "engines" webpage, or here: http://www.mooneymite.com/articles/continental.htm Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:11:58 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: O-200 on a Piet For some interesting photos and data on the O-200, check out William Wynne' s thrust testing page, even if you aren't interested in the Corvair as an a lternative. The page is here: http://www.flycorvair.com/thrust.html . You don't have to believe the results but at least check out the testing.Oscar ZunigaSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at http://www.fl ysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:20 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Guys, I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:40:33 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy jig question I think maybe my original response wasn't clear. The point I was trying to make was that some people are able to apply glue sparingly and neatly, and some are not. If you know what type of builder you are before you start, you can prepare yourself accordingly. If you've built model airplanes before (and the Pietenpol is EXACTLY like a giant model airplane), you will probably know what type of builder you are. If you don't know what type of builder you are, make a few practice joints, and see how things go. Excess glue doesn't help you at all. A blob of glue away from the joint location is simply extra weight. My experience was identical to Glenn's (In my previous reply my link to my photos didn't work very well. If you want to see my build photos, go to www.mykitplane.com then go to Builder's Logs, then scroll down to Pietenpol and pick the builder you want to check out). I used small pieces of plastic film only at the leading edge and trailing edge. After building all of my ribs, my jig only has a couple of spots where the glue managed to make contact. But, if you are the type of builder that has difficulty keeping the glue joints tidy, and glue runs directly onto the jig, you're going to have a heck of a time removing your rib from the jig without damaging one or the other. So, Steve, the moral of this little story is that you need to use enough glue to bond the surfaces together, but that's all. Epoxy joints are not to be tightly clamped, because it will starve the joint of adhesive, but gobs of extra glue will not add strength, just pounds. And one thing you don't need in an airplane is extra weight. While we're on the topic of building ribs, do yourself a favour (favor) and spread a thin layer of epoxy on the back side of each gusset before you glue it in place. That way the inside surface of the gusset will be sealed, and you won't have to try sticking a paintbrush in those little cubby holes to varnish those surfaces. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:00:21 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Explosion From: "MikeD" HelsperSew(at)aol.com wrote: > Guys, > > I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > To save his sanity and vocal chords, he may want to print out about 200 copies of a fact sheet containing: - what is it - how much does it cost - performance - smell - taste - feel - etc and put these in a "take one" tray nearby! -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165198#165198 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:02:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: prop for A75 From: "MikeD" taildrags(at)hotmail.com wrote: > Now don't get your 75s tangled up. There is an A-75 and there is a C-75. The A-75 is what we've been discussing but someone mentioned the C-75 and that's a different engine. It has a larger bore and many other differences from the A-75, but for the purposes of determining which prop to use (the subject of this thread), the C-75 develops its rated HP at a far lower speed... 2275 RPM, as opposed to the A-75 which needs to spin 2600 to develop rated power. > > All of that info is conveniently found on the Fly Baby "engines" webpage, or here: http://www.mooneymite.com/articles/continental.htm > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net I'm talking A-75 myself. Yeah, the C-75 is a larger displacement engine and can be propped up relative to the 65's. Next stop - your link! Thanks. -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165199#165199 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:31 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: GN1 - Status Plans From: "bhassel" I'd be interested in finding a set of plans. PM me or email me! Thanks, Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165201#165201 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:06:55 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences From: "bhassel" I am still trying to figure this all out (as a newbie). Am I correct in understanding that the GN1 is a Piet with a stronger airframe/wing? What are the differences? A beefier structure sounds like a good idea to me since that pretty well fits my description... Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165203#165203 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:11:24 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Newbie with the usual annoying questions Jeff, There are several flying Piets in the UK with O-200's for power. There is at least one with an O-235. The C-90 is very common in the UK. The following website lists individual data for all registered UK Piets, including the engine used. There is a listing for weight, but it's Maximum Take Off Weight (in kilograms, so multiply x 2.2 to get pounds), so that would include occupants and fuel. Unfortunately, there isn't a listing for empty weight. One other factor to consider with a larger engine is the increased fuel burn, which usually means a bigger fuel tank (more weight again) or shorter flights. http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60 &pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=summary&aircrafttype=pietenpol Bill C. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:44 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy jig question From: "chase143" More excellent words! Thanks for the counter top idea, sounds like epoxy won't stick to that, I'm trying that technique. Bill the picture link works fine, very helpful, good words on epoxy application. Thanks all! Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165206#165206 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 07:35:07 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences Hi Bob, Since your earlier post, I have been trying to find my GN1 plans. I have both Piet and GN1 plans. It has been many years since I looked at the GN1, but, to my best recollection, the GN1 had its own wing, but also offered the choice of J3, T-craft, or 7AC wings. It also had a somewhat different control stick arrangement, but I don't recall the differences in framing sizes (beefier?). Another option was the use of J3, etc. landing gear, with steel spreaders in the fuselage. It is my opinion that a trained eye can tell the difference between a GN1 and a Piet, solely by the profile - something about the slender fuse on the Piet. That's what I recall...now if I could only find those plans for you... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences I am still trying to figure this all out (as a newbie). Am I correct in understanding that the GN1 is a Piet with a stronger airframe/wing? What are the differences? A beefier structure sounds like a good idea to me since that pretty well fits my description... Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165203#165203 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences From: "Phillips, Jack" Easiest way to tell a GN-1 from a Pietenpol is where the landing gear struts attach. On a Pietenpol, both the forward and rear gear struts align with the lift struts. On a GN-1, the forward Landing gear strut aliggns with the forward lift strut, but the rear LG strut comes into the fuselage forward of the rear lift strut. I've flown both and can't tell much difference in the way they fly. Jack Phillips Pietenpol NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:31 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences Hi Bob, Since your earlier post, I have been trying to find my GN1 plans. I have both Piet and GN1 plans. It has been many years since I looked at the GN1, but, to my best recollection, the GN1 had its own wing, but also offered the choice of J3, T-craft, or 7AC wings. It also had a somewhat different control stick arrangement, but I don't recall the differences in framing sizes (beefier?). Another option was the use of J3, etc. landing gear, with steel spreaders in the fuselage. It is my opinion that a trained eye can tell the difference between a GN1 and a Piet, solely by the profile - something about the slender fuse on the Piet. That's what I recall...now if I could only find those plans for you... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences I am still trying to figure this all out (as a newbie). Am I correct in understanding that the GN1 is a Piet with a stronger airframe/wing? What are the differences? A beefier structure sounds like a good idea to me since that pretty well fits my description... Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165203#165203 _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:20 AM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare A one inch spar failing in compression from a bevel? Brown Gravy? "The IT Girl of the Sky?" It must be time to level this discussion with a quote: "I Haven't had an unlimited budget you know. It's not going to look look like something out of a museum, all clean and dusted. I'm a designer and I don't give a d@nm about clean. That's what's so unique about this plane, the design. Concentrate on that. The Design. Well, there it is, the Stiles Skystreak." -Ezra Stiles- You may now return to serious Pietenpol discussion. -john (the idiot)- Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 08:46:50 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piet - GN! differences Bob, There are quite a few differences between the Pietenpol Air Camper and the Grega GN-1 Aircamper. Most of them are not noticable to the casual viewer. The GN-1 was designed as a modernized version of the Ford Model A powered Pietenpol, using a 65HP Continental, and making use of many salvaged parts from J-3 Cubs and the like (landing gear, fuel tank, etc). Back when the plans were drawn up, those salvaged parts were fairly plentiful, and cheap (not so anymore). There was an option to install a Cub wing rather than building a new wing from scratch. Grega also felt that the fuselage needed to be beefed up, so he extended the plywood skins all the way back to the tailpost. I haven't heard of any plans-built Pietenpols failing behind the pilot's seat, so I'm not sure why he felt this was necessary. Most Air Campers are prone to being tail heavy, so added weight in that area would not be an advantage. As I understand it, the GN-1 design does not permit the cabane struts to be tilted fore or aft to help with Weight and Balance issues, whereas the Pietenpol does have this feature (most Pietenpols end up with the cabanes tilted back a few inches.) There are many other, more subtle differences, such as design of fittings, location of the rudder control horns, side stringers, airfoil leading edge, etc. Take a scan through the archives to learn more. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:41:26 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet building Again, thanks to all on the comments on my new plane. I would like to remind everyone to go back to the Sport Aviation 1999 issue with the P-51 on the cover. The pics there of Mike Cuy's Piet still are posted in my hangar. Jack Phillips and Larry Williams also had nice spreads in the past. Mike Cuy and Chuck Ganzer both have nice videos on building and flying the Piet. While building watching these videos can be a great source of inspiration. For all new builders, try to set aside time to make it to Brodhead, Wi. for the Piet fly in. It happens just before OSH and you get to meet lots of the people on this list. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:55:13 AM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank Bill, The measurements of the tank are: 24" wide X 13" deep X 12" length. The aluminum is 5/32" with a 1/8 aluminum top to make the curve. I am heading to the local Walmart store for a weight scale ( I need to check myself too) and will have a better answer to the weight. Their are baffles inside and the aluminum is not what I requested for thickness but the welder mentioned it was the next thickness available to prevent "bucking" when finished. It might be a little extra weight but with a corvair up front, I hope it is not a factor. Now....if I can only get my truck started. It reached -26 below without wind chill last night! Ken H. Fargo, ND Bill Church wrote: Ken, Your new tank weighs in at around 35 pounds? Try weighing it WITHOUT fuel. Seriously, though, that sounds really heavy. Assuming your tank was made of .051" aluminum (many build from .040, but .051 is a bit easier to weld), and assuming dimensions of roughly 24" wide x 24" deep x 15" long (which is probably bigger than the real thing), the aluminum is goung to weigh somewhere around say, 16 -18 pounds. Add some baffles and a filler cap and you should still be well inder 20 pounds. What thickness is your tank made of? Bill C. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return, to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:10 AM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Say Dan...... Does the article or has Dick mention the weight of his Piet? Specifically the engine..what is the weight of his engine? Ken HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Guys, I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. --------------------------------- Delicious ideas to please the pickiest eaters. Watch the video on AOL Living. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return, to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase From: "chase143" I was considering buying the spruce kit from A/C Spruce to get the majority of the wood at one time, even with ground truck cost it looks like it saves a bit on shipping . However, their package lists the capstrips as 3/16" x 1/2" vice what I think is correct, 1/4" x 1/2". When I contacted them, they said they verified this from a set of plans. Also, they list the spar as 3/4" x 4 3/4". I plan to build the full size wing, so I think the plans call for a 1" spar. Am I miss reading two very important measurements? Thanks, Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165249#165249 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:34:55 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase Steve, I would definitely NOT buy my spruce from the lumber list provided by ACS. You are best to develop your own lumber list. BTW , ACS has their "bargain bag of spruce" which is a very good buy. I actually bought two of these before I was finished with my wood work. You can make many parts out of the pieces that they send you, especially if you have a planer. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:38:26 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase From: "Phillips, Jack" 3/16" capstrips is probably fine. I ripped mine myself and they ended up at about .20". Many Piets (inclduing mine) are flying with 3/4" spars. Since they make up each kit individually, I would just ask them to make the capstrips 1/4" x 1/2". If they balk, ask to talk with Jim Irwin (president). They pride themselves on customer service - give them a chance to prove it. Theywill make lots of money off you in the coming years. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of chase143 Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 3:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase I was considering buying the spruce kit from A/C Spruce to get the majority of the wood at one time, even with ground truck cost it looks like it saves a bit on shipping . However, their package lists the capstrips as 3/16" x 1/2" vice what I think is correct, 1/4" x 1/2". When I contacted them, they said they verified this from a set of plans. Also, they list the spar as 3/4" x 4 3/4". I plan to build the full size wing, so I think the plans call for a 1" spar. Am I miss reading two very important measurements? Thanks, Steve Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165249#165249 _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:17:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase From: "chase143" Sounds good. ACS was very helpful, I just told them I would research what others (who have been there) have used, because I am new at the Piet and I'd get back to them. Regardless, I think I'll make a list and order periodically. Steve C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165260#165260 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:23:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase From: "Catdesigns" Steve, I just ordered wood for my wings from Aircraft Spruce. From my review of the Pietenpol Air Camper spruce kit, it does not include material for the wing tip, leading edge or trailing edge of the wing. It also does not include the wing rib material. Im not sure how well the kit matches up with the fuselage needs as I did not buy my fuselage wood from them. -inch x 4 -inch spars are used by BHP on the last plane he built and are use by many people. I was going to go with the 1-inch but decided to go with -inch (for cost) and shims at the ribs. Per the plans, the wing ribs are made form 1/4-inch x 1/2-inch. You will need to order this separately. ACS has a note that says the ribs are built based on the HP of your engine. This is not true for the Pietenpol. This must be from the Grega plans. They also sell a Grega kit so make sure your looking at the right one. If you order from then have them send you a copy of the material in the kit and compare it to your own list of stuff. It is rather simple to sit down with the plans and get a ruff estimate of what you need. By the way don't forget about plywood. You will need some for both the wings and fuselage. Chris -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165261#165261 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:23 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase From: "Catdesigns" Just noticed I made a mistake in my previous email. My spars are are 3/4-inch by 4 3/4-inch. Also, shipping from Corona to Sacramento, $110 (estimated by them). I cant drive down there for less then $110. Frequently I get hit with $15 to $20 shipping on small boxes so this sounded good to me. Chris -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165264#165264 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:37 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase From: "chase143" Thanks Chris, more great info! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165267#165267 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:53:42 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase There is an Excel spreadsheet wood list for the extended fuselage which is posted on Mykitplane: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=4 Maybe someone with a bit more experience could take a look and see if it seems correct. It is very handy for estimating cost, as you can just plug the current prices in and it will recalculate. Ryan HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Steve, I would definitely NOT buy my spruce from the lumber list provided by ACS. You are best to develop your own lumber list. BTW , ACS has their "bargain bag of spruce" which is a very good buy. I actually bought two of these before I was finished with my wood work. You can make many parts out of the pieces that they send you, especially if you have a planer. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:44 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank Ken, >From the sounds of things, your wording is correct - you have a tank that's built like a TANK. Looking at your pictures I can see where the baffles are installed, and based on your dimensions I would guess your weight to be somewhere around 25 pounds (very rough guess). I've never seen 5/32" aluminum (and I've been working in metal fabrication for over 20 years). That would be an oddball thickness. Not sure what "bucking" he was trying to avoid, but if it was "oil-canning" (tension in the sheet caused by the welding, I wouldn't even worry about it. The tank is hidden. As long as it holds fuel, and doesn't leak it doesn't matter if it ain't pretty. But, now you've got a pretty tank. Make sure you test it to make sure it doesn't leak before you put in your plane. One thing's for sure - you'll never wear out your tank. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:50 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Ken My plane weighs in at 810 lb. The article is mistaken on the 820lb. I could easily have saved lots of weight but there are certain things I just wanted and some mistakes I made. Dick N. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Say Dan...... Does the article or has Dick mention the weight of his Piet? Specifically the engine..what is the weight of his engine? Ken HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Guys, I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:11 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase I got a lumber list from this group back in '98, submitted it to AS&S for a quote. This is/was for spruce for the long fuselage, and the three piece wing. I have scans of the original wood list, and the few page quote from them. I accepted the quote and they delivered it. The wood was right on. Few pieces left over, but none shorted. You DO have to sit down with the order and group the right pieces with the right assembly. But all the wood was top quality. But this was 10 years ago. If anybody wants scans of them, let me know. All the pencil writing on the original list is mine for my own notes. Up to you to use or ignore. Keep in mind it's only spruce. NO plywood. NO leading edge/trailing edge. But it sure flies sweet! walt evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:48 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase There is an Excel spreadsheet wood list for the extended fuselage which is posted on Mykitplane: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=4 Maybe someone with a bit more experience could take a look and see if it seems correct. It is very handy for estimating cost, as you can just plug the current prices in and it will recalculate. Ryan HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Steve, I would definitely NOT buy my spruce from the lumber list provided by ACS. You are best to develop your own lumber list. BTW , ACS has their "bargain bag of spruce" which is a very good buy. I actually bought two of these before I was finished with my wood work. You can make many parts out of the pieces that they send you, especially if you have a planer. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:46:46 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank Thanks Bill............ Your right it is well build and will last for many years to come. The term was "oil canning" and they did not want that to happen when they choose the materials. When I question the lady she mentioned a little thicker than 5/32 and I never got a straight answer. My luck was that the shop was interested in seeing her skills and they let her make the tank. She eventually became the hired welder of aluminum for them. The tank was pressured tested at 15lbs of pressure and no issues. Cost of tank $500.00 clams! However, it is want I expected after seeing the cost of other tanks. Only wished I was better at welding aluminum. But at least it fits my pietenpol as my plane is a "wide body." Now wait until you see the new fuel sight gage I am making out of misc. parts I collected from the hardware store. I'll send photos later! Ken Bill Church wrote: Ken, From the sounds of things, your wording is correct - you have a tank that's built like a TANK. Looking at your pictures I can see where the baffles are installed, and based on your dimensions I would guess your weight to be somewhere around 25 pounds (very rough guess). I've never seen 5/32" aluminum (and I've been working in metal fabrication for over 20 years). That would be an oddball thickness. Not sure what "bucking" he was trying to avoid, but if it was "oil-canning" (tension in the sheet caused by the welding, I wouldn't even worry about it. The tank is hidden. As long as it holds fuel, and doesn't leak it doesn't matter if it ain't pretty. But, now you've got a pretty tank. Make sure you test it to make sure it doesn't leak before you put in your plane. One thing's for sure - you'll never wear out your tank. Bill C. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return, to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:04 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Dick, As I mentioned at Brodhead....Wonderful plane and excellent build. I am glad to know you and you advice and assistance is wonderful. Glad to call you friend! Ken H. PS...with my fat hind-end, If I can come in under 1000lbs I'll be happy! Dick Navratil wrote: Ken My plane weighs in at 810 lb. The article is mistaken on the 820lb. I could easily have saved lots of weight but there are certain things I just wanted and some mistakes I made. Dick N. Dick ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:59 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Say Dan...... Does the article or has Dick mention the weight of his Piet? Specifically the engine..what is the weight of his engine? Ken HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Guys, I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. --------------------------------- to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP "Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return, to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 05:16:38 PM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase That's a great picture. Takes me right back to New Jersey. As for the wood... (and I don't mean to sound like a grump) Feel very free to be picky and if they send you stuff that doesn't meet min specs complain and get them to be accountable and be persistent. The last time they sent me substandard wood their stance was that if you want the correct annualar rings per inch and grain runout you have to request that all your wood be cut from spar material. They are charging top dollar and probably making money on the shipping too. Imagine what it would cost if cut from their spar stock. It's your money and ultimately it's your butt. So, know what you are getting and how to check the quality of what you receive. There are some specs for grading wood on their site and in Advisory Circular 43.13. I recommend getting a copy (I think you can download AC43.13 from the FAA website and just look at the relevant pages. Yes.. http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument) I found a place in Boston that sells nice rough-cut Sitka spruce boards which you can cut and surface yourself. That's about as far from the Pacific Northwest as you can get. ..so I'm sure there are great suppliers all over the place. Places I've heard mentioned are Edensaw (Corky bought wood from them I believe). McCormicks in Wisconsin. Just don't feel like AS&S or Wicks is the only place you can get Sitka spruce. The cost of a planer and jointer is far less than having AS&S cut all your wood from spar. ...or you can take whatever they send you. I'm not really down on AS&S, I just wanted to share what I have learned over the past couple of years. On 2/20/08, walt evans wrote: > > I got a lumber list from this group back in '98, submitted it to AS&S for > a quote. This is/was for spruce for the long fuselage, and the three piece > wing. I have scans of the original wood list, and the few page quote from > them. I accepted the quote and they delivered it. > The wood was right on. Few pieces left over, but none shorted. You DO > have to sit down with the order and group the right pieces with the right > assembly. > But all the wood was top quality. But this was 10 years ago. > > If anybody wants scans of them, let me know. > All the pencil writing on the original list is mine for my own notes. Up > to you to use or ignore. > > Keep in mind it's only spruce. NO plywood. NO leading edge/trailing > edge. > > But it sure flies sweet! > > walt evans > NX140DL > > "No one ever learned anything by talking" > Ben Franklin > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Ryan Mueller > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2008 4:48 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase > > > There is an Excel spreadsheet wood list for the extended fuselage which is > posted on Mykitplane: > > http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=4 > > Maybe someone with a bit more experience could take a look and see if it > seems correct. It is very handy for estimating cost, as you can just plug > the current prices in and it will recalculate. > > Ryan > > > *HelsperSew@aol.com* wrote: > > Steve, > > I would definitely NOT buy my spruce from the lumber list provided by ACS. > You are best to develop your own lumber list. BTW , ACS has their "bargain > bag of spruce" which is a very good buy. I actually bought two of these > before I was finished with my wood work. You can make many parts out of the > pieces that they send you, especially if you have a planer. > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > * > > href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List > href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com > href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:43:18 PM PST US From: VAHOWDY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase check out this web site for spruce _http://www.publiclumber.com/aasitsprucve.html_ (http://www.publiclumber.com/aasitsprucve.html) **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:25 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can be used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesigns Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Just noticed I made a mistake in my previous email. My spars are are 3/4-inch by 4 3/4-inch. Also, shipping from Corona to Sacramento, $110 (estimated by them). I cant drive down there for less then $110. Frequently I get hit with $15 to $20 shipping on small boxes so this sounded good to me. Chris -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165264#165264 ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:46:40 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Explosion I think it's more than his fuel tank..juuuust kidding. Gary Boothe Cool, CA _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:59 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Explosion Say Dan...... Does the article or has Dick mention the weight of his Piet? Specifically the engine..what is the weight of his engine? Ken HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: Guys, I think Dick Navatril really lit the fuse on this site with his beautiful round-engine Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. I bet there will be an explosion in the attendance at Brodhead this year! So looking forward to it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. _____ to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee _____ Be a better friend, newshound, and ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:56 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase I bought the Pietenpol wood kit from ACS. The wood quality was excellent an d provided all the wood I needed except for all ply, rib material, leading an d trailing edges. My Piet is the long fuselage version. Rick On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Catdesigns wrote: t > > > > Steve, > > I just ordered wood for my wings from Aircraft Spruce. From my review of > the Pietenpol Air Camper spruce kit, it does not include material for the > wing tip, leading edge or trailing edge of the wing. It also does not > include the wing rib material. I'm not sure how well the kit matches up > with the fuselage needs as I did not buy my fuselage wood from them. > > =BE-inch x 4 =BD-inch spars are used by BHP on the last plane he built an d are > use by many people. I was going to go with the 1-inch but decided to go w ith > =BE-inch (for cost) and shims at the ribs. > > Per the plans, the wing ribs are made form 1/4-inch x 1/2-inch. You wil l > need to order this separately. ACS has a note that says the ribs are buil t > based on the HP of your engine. This is not true for the Pietenpol. Thi s > must be from the Grega plans. They also sell a Grega kit so make sure you r > looking at the right one. > > If you order from then have them send you a copy of the material in the > kit and compare it to your own list of stuff. It is rather simple to sit > down with the plans and get a ruff estimate of what you need. > > By the way don't forget about plywood. You will need some for both the > wings and fuselage. > > Chris > > -------- > Chris Tracy > WestCoastPiet.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165261#165261 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:21 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase From: AmsafetyC@aol.com I am using poplar in my build and rather pleased with it from all aspects. Except of course my newly acquired allergic reaction to it. Just my luck it takes a few days of misery to get past the love of the build All in all poplar is amazing stuff to work with strong, stable, readily available fro the local wood guy and a lot less expensive. Has all the makings of perfect. John Recine Lititz pa Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Gary Boothe" To: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can be used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesigns Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Just noticed I made a mistake in my previous email. My spars are are 3/4-inch by 4 3/4-inch. Also, shipping from Corona to Sacramento, $110 (estimated by them). I cant drive down there for less then $110. Frequently I get hit with $15 to $20 shipping on small boxes so this sounded good to me. Chris -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165264#165264 ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:40:16 PM PST US From: "jimboyer@hughes.net" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Hello Gary, My Piet is being built entirely of Douglas Fir and mostly marine plywood. By the way I am in Santa Rosa CA where is Cool? Southern CA? Thanks, Jim PS My cost for all wood less the plywood was just over $300.00 from a local lumberyard who let my friend and I go through their stock and select what we wanted. ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:46:40 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank From: AmsafetyC@aol.com Loved the tank pics can't wait to see the gauge or the wide piet logo John Recine Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New Finished Fuel Tank Thanks Bill............ Your right it is well build and will last for many years to come. The term was "oil canning"and they did not want that to happen when they choose the materials. WhenI question the lady she mentioned a little thicker than 5/32 and I never got a straight answer. My luck was that the shop was interested in seeing her skills and they let her make the tank. She eventually became the hired welder of aluminum for them. The tank was pressured tested at 15lbs of pressure and no issues. Cost of tank $500.00 clams! However, it is want I expected after seeing the cost of other tanks. Only wished I was better at welding aluminum. But at least it fits my pietenpol as my plane is a "wide body." Now wait until you see the new fuel sight gage I am making out of misc. parts I collected from the hardware store. I'll send photos later! Ken Bill Church wrote: Ken, >From the sounds of things, your wording is correct - you have a tank that's built like a TANK. Looking at your pictures I can see where the baffles are installed, and based on your dimensions I would guess your weight to be somewhere around 25 pounds (very rough guess). I've never seen 5/32" aluminum (and I've beenworking in metal fabrication for over 20 years). That would be an oddball thickness. Not sure what "bucking" he was trying to avoid, but if it was "oil-canning" (tension in the sheet caused by the welding, I wouldn't even worry about it. The tank is hidden. As long as it holds fuel, and doesn't leak it doesn't matter if it ain't pretty. But, now you've got a pretty tank. Make sure you test it to make sure it doesn't leak before you put in your plane. to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!" -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 06:47:34 PM PST US From: "Bill Princell" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase: Steve: Make sure you purchase your spruce from AS&S. I just purchased and received a small order of 1/4"x1/2" cap strip from Wicks. They had a 2-week order lead time and I paid a premium price of .70 per foot, because I needed it earlier than the 6-week order lead time AS&S was promising. The cap strip that Wicks is selling is junk. They apparently don't know how to cut and hold dimension. Various pieces of my order were cut too wide (1/4") to fit in my rib jig and several were too thick (1/2") causing a lot of extra time spent to true up the gusset surface. This was not the first time I've had this same problem with Wicks. The bulk of my order came two weeks later from AS&S and appears to be okay and they're still selling it for.32 per foot. Bill Princell - ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 06:59:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piet building From: AmsafetyC@aol.com Dick That must be a common builders thing I too have some piet pics hanging in my shop for inspitation. I have not seen your cover shot, I don't get the mag I am certain they would be disapointing after seeing your build in Broadhead this past year. Certainly an impressive piece of work and a great build an inspiration to us all. John Recine Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Dick Navratil" To: Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet building Again, thanks to all on the comments on my new plane. I would like to remind everyone to go back to the Sport Aviation 1999 issue with the P-51 on the cover. The pics there of Mike Cuy's Piet still are posted in my hangar. Jack Phillips and Larry Williams also had nice spreads in the past. Mike Cuy and Chuck Ganzer both have nice videos on building and flying the Piet. While building watching these videos can be a great source of inspiration. For all new builders, try to set aside time to make it to Brodhead, Wi. for the Piet fly in. It happens just before OSH and you get to meet lots of the people on this list. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:52 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare From: AmsafetyC@aol.com Ezra. Its not a biplane! John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: John Hofmann To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare A one inch spar failing in compression from a bevel? Brown Gravy? "The IT Girl of the Sky?" It must be time to level this discussion with a quote: "I Haven't had an unlimited budget you know. It's not going to look look like something out of a museum, all clean and dusted. I'm a designer and I don't give a d@nm about clean. That's what's so unique about this plane, the design. Concentrate on that. The Design. Well, there it is, the Stiles Skystreak." -Ezra Stiles- You may now return to serious Pietenpol discussion. -john (the idiot)- Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:54 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Gary Boothe wrote: > > Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is > considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can be > used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... A friend in New Hampshire built a Piet some years ago, using Doug fir instead of spruce. He found that it was significantly tail heavy, though he was still able to balance things out by adjusting the wing position. He said that if he were ever to build another he would user fir for the longerons and spars, pine for the tail, wing ribs, and (I think; my memory feels a little weak about this part) fuselage parts other than the longerons. The Piet is so overbuilt, in his opinion, that pine would do fine even without adjusting the sizes. It's worth noting that he is a mechanical engineer. Owen ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 07:25:07 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Hemlock for everything done so far, fuse, tail feathers, ribs and cabane struts. Close grain Fir for LG legs as Hemlock isn't available in the proper size. I'm leaning towards laminated fir for the spars. It's not generaly known that many Dehaviland Mosquito's were built with both Doug Fir and Western Hemlock as even then Spruce was in short supply. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOhZEsIq85E&mode=related&search http://clifdawson.ca/Pientenpol.html Go to Tools+Tips-bottom of page-for charts on wood strength. Clif > > Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is > considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can > be > used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:07 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase: There is a lot to be said for buying a decent quality table saw and a planer and a couple big hunks of wood. In the end you might have paid a little more, but you wind up with tools that you will have for a lifetime and you get them for a big discount after you figure what you are saving on the wood. Not to mention the time you save during the life of the project by having the tools handy and being able to cut down more stock that you didn't realize you would need instead of having to order it and pay for more shipping. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Princell Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 9:43 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Purchase: Steve: Make sure you purchase your spruce from AS&S. I just purchased and received a small order of 1/4"x1/2" cap strip from Wicks. They had a 2-week order lead time and I paid a premium price of .70 per foot, because I needed it earlier than the 6-week order lead time AS&S was promising. The cap strip that Wicks is selling is junk. They apparently don't know how to cut and hold dimension. Various pieces of my order were cut too wide (1/4") to fit in my rib jig and several were too thick (1/2") causing a lot of extra time spent to true up the gusset surface. This was not the first time I've had this same problem with Wicks. The bulk of my order came two weeks later from AS&S and appears to be okay and they're still selling it for.32 per foot. Bill Princell - ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:07 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Thanks, Owen! I am noting that a number of builders have used both fir and poplar! I am encouraged.... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:17 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Gary Boothe wrote: > > Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is > considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can be > used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... A friend in New Hampshire built a Piet some years ago, using Doug fir instead of spruce. He found that it was significantly tail heavy, though he was still able to balance things out by adjusting the wing position. He said that if he were ever to build another he would user fir for the longerons and spars, pine for the tail, wing ribs, and (I think; my memory feels a little weak about this part) fuselage parts other than the longerons. The Piet is so overbuilt, in his opinion, that pine would do fine even without adjusting the sizes. It's worth noting that he is a mechanical engineer. Owen ________________________________ Message 50 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:08 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase John, Just wondering, are you finding it difficult to find poplar that fits the grain description in 43.13? Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AmsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 6:39 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase I am using poplar in my build and rather pleased with it from all aspects. Except of course my newly acquired allergic reaction to it. Just my luck it takes a few days of misery to get past the love of the build All in all poplar is amazing stuff to work with strong, stable, readily available fro the local wood guy and a lot less expensive. Has all the makings of perfect. John Recine Lititz pa Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: "Gary Boothe" To: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can be used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesigns Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Just noticed I made a mistake in my previous email. My spars are are 3/4-inch by 4 3/4-inch. Also, shipping from Corona to Sacramento, $110 (estimated by them). I cant drive down there for less then $110. Frequently I get hit with $15 to $20 shipping on small boxes so this sounded good to me. Chris -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165264#165264 ________________________________ Message 51 ____________________________________ Time: 07:42:11 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Cliff, You're reading my mind. I am also interested in wood struts. Do you know of any guidelines for laminating the struts? Gary Boothe Cool, CA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Hemlock for everything done so far, fuse, tail feathers, ribs and cabane struts. Close grain Fir for LG legs as Hemlock isn't available in the proper size. I'm leaning towards laminated fir for the spars. It's not generaly known that many Dehaviland Mosquito's were built with both Doug Fir and Western Hemlock as even then Spruce was in short supply. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOhZEsIq85E&mode=related&search http://clifdawson.ca/Pientenpol.html Go to Tools+Tips-bottom of page-for charts on wood strength. Clif > > Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is > considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can > be > used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA ________________________________ Message 52 ____________________________________ Time: 07:59:39 PM PST US From: John Hofmann Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare John R, Now you've got the spirit! All of life's problems can be solved through "The Great Waldo Pepper." Greet Strangers: "Hello Good People!" Protect Wimminfolk: "He's a Four-Flusher Mary Beth." Learn about culture: "Duke, into the opera singer costume" Become a new entrepreneur: "You take this to the gas station every time I need it and at the end of the day I'll give you a free ride." Lessons in advertising: "I knew she wasn't worth top billing." Learn about sharing: "Nebraska is mine!" Return from a business trip: "Look who's home." Advanced aircraft design: "It's gonna be a monoplane." ALL of life's questions and problems solved. -john- John Hofmann Vice-President, Information Technology The Rees Group, Inc. 2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800 Madison, WI 53718 Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150 Fax: 608.443.2474 Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com On Feb 20, 2008, at 9:00 PM, AmsafetyC@aol.com wrote: > > Ezra. Its not a biplane! > > John > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Hofmann > > Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 10:22:29 > To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare > > > > > > A one inch spar failing in compression from a bevel? > Brown Gravy? > "The IT Girl of the Sky?" > > It must be time to level this discussion with a quote: > > "I Haven't had an unlimited budget you know. It's not going to look > look like something out of a museum, all clean and dusted. I'm a > designer and I don't give a d@nm about clean. That's what's so unique > about this plane, the design. Concentrate on that. The Design. Well, > there it is, the Stiles Skystreak." > > -Ezra Stiles- > > You may now return to serious Pietenpol discussion. > > -john (the idiot)- > > Do Not Archive > > ________________________________ Message 53 ____________________________________ Time: 08:14:34 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Gary Boothe wrote: > Thanks, Owen! I am noting that a number of builders have used both fir and > poplar! I am encouraged.... Glad to help. FWIW, my ribs are pine. The tail feathers will be, with the possible exception of the spars. As I think about it, my friend may have said they needed to be stronger than pine if made to the standard dimensions. It's long enough ago so that my memory is too far gone for recovery. Owen ________________________________ Message 54 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:46 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase Two questions. Are you laminating for looks,as in dark/light woods or for structural reasons? Or possibly you have some material that is too small you want to use up? Oops, that's three. :-) Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Boothe" Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:36 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase > > Cliff, > > You're reading my mind. I am also interested in wood struts. Do you know > of > any guidelines for laminating the struts? > > Gary Boothe > Cool, CA > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif > Dawson > Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:22 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Purchase > > > Hemlock for everything done so far, fuse, tail feathers, > ribs and cabane struts. Close grain Fir for LG legs as > Hemlock isn't available in the proper size. I'm leaning > towards laminated fir for the spars. > > It's not generaly known that many Dehaviland Mosquito's > were built with both Doug Fir and Western Hemlock as > even then Spruce was in short supply. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOhZEsIq85E&mode=related&search > > http://clifdawson.ca/Pientenpol.html > > Go to Tools+Tips-bottom of page-for charts on wood > strength. > > Clif > >> >> Has anyone utilized an alternate to Spruce. I know that Doug Fir is >> considered acceptable - heavier but stronger. AC43-13 allows that fir can >> be >> used at a lesser dimension, provided it is AC grade. Just curious.... >> >> Gary Boothe >> Cool, CA > > > -- > 8:45 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.