Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:31 AM - FW: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (Phillips, Jack)
2. 05:45 AM - To All the Newbies (Bill Church)
3. 06:07 AM - Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (MikeD)
4. 06:10 AM - Re: To All the Newbies (MikeD)
5. 06:36 AM - Re: Question (MikeD)
6. 06:49 AM - Re: To All the Newbies (Glenn Thomas)
7. 07:50 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Bill Church)
8. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Question (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
9. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (Scott Schreiber)
10. 08:59 AM - Control question (Michael Groah)
11. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Question (Gene & Tammy)
12. 09:50 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (jimboyer@hughes.net)
13. 12:42 PM - Radio Show (Brian Kraut)
14. 12:53 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe)
15. 01:24 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Glenn Thomas)
16. 01:34 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Bill Church)
17. 01:35 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller)
18. 01:40 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe)
19. 01:49 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe)
20. 02:57 PM - Re: Tapered Spar Scare (Don Emch)
21. 03:00 PM - Re: Control question (Don Emch)
22. 03:00 PM - Re: To All the Newbies (gcardinal)
23. 03:06 PM - Re: Control question (gcardinal)
24. 04:17 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies)
25. 04:33 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (del magsam)
26. 05:34 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (jimboyer@hughes.net)
27. 06:28 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies)
28. 06:44 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Peter W Johnson)
29. 07:00 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller)
30. 07:54 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Clif Dawson)
31. 09:58 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | FW: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 |
I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on.
This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I
decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my
Pietenpol.
Jack Phillips
Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:54 PM
Subject: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07
TIMEOUT FOR HUMOR
Arabs WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07
These are pictures of the wreck of a brand new A340-600, that had never
flown. (never saw (1) hour in the air)
Thank these French and their Arab friends for this bit of "comedy of
errors".
Nine employees of the Arab airline were in the aircraft, but "no
employees"
from Airbus were present.
The Arab's taxied out to the run-up area.
Then they took all four engines to takeoff power with virtually an empty
aircraft. (They obvious didn't read the run-up manuals.)
No chocks were set, (not that it would have mattered at that power
setting).
"Brakes will not hold it back at full power anyway".
As it turns out the takeoff warning horn was blaring away in the cockpit
because they had all FOUR engines at full power.
The aircraft computers thought they were trying to takeoff but it had
not
been configured properly (flaps/slats, etc, etc).
Then one of these brain surgeons decided to pull the "Ground Sense"
circuit breaker to quiet the alarms.
This fools the aircraft into thinking it is in the air."A big, big
mistake"!
As soon as they did that, the computers automaticlly "released" all the
brakes. ("this is a Safety feature so that pilots don't land with the
brakes
on".)There was No time to stop and no one smart enough thought to reduce
the
max power setting.....
So the rest is as you see it below.
No one is talking, so who knows if there were survivors.
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | To All the Newbies |
Things have gotten busy on this list lately. Welcome to all the new
members of the list.
I think we can put the blame for a lot of the new interest squarely on
the shoulders of Dick Navratil and his new round-engined Piet on the
cover of Sport Aviation. Well done, Dick.
For those of you out there that are not aware of it, there are a couple
of resources that I haven't heard mentioned lately, so I thought I'd
bring them up.
1. The Pietenpol Frappr site. It is a map that shows where a lot of
Piet builders/owners are located. Go to this site to see if there's
anyone near your location, and add yourself, and a photo, if you like:
http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol
2. Glenn Thomas' Pietenpol Directory. Glenn is a grumpy guy, but he
has a nice website. Just kidding - Glenn is a first-class individual,
and has generously offered a page of his website where we can all list
our info. Up near the top of the home page (on the left side) of Glenn's
really nice Pietenpol Build website, there is a link to a directory of
Pietenpol Builders/owners that has a lot of the members of this list
registered. For some reason, it seems that recently, the list has become
populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past the first
six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants. Everyone is
welcome to post their info at this site as well. Here's the link for
that one:
http://www.flyingwood.com/
Bill C.
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 |
Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal wrote:
> I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on.
> This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I
> decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my
> Pietenpol.
>
> Jack Phillips
> Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina
>
> --
Oopsy. This happened during a ground run-up. The brakes were full on, then something
happened and it broke loose. There were 7-8 test personnel on board and
a few were injured. The airplane is a bit messed up!
Mike
--------
Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165547#165547
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: To All the Newbies |
[quote="eng(at)canadianrogers.com"]For some reason, it seems that recently, the
list has become populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past
the first six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants.
Bill C.
> [b]
With a URL like "flyingwood" what would you expect!? [Laughing]
Just grab the right joystick when it's time to flare...
--------
Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165548#165548
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
[quote="kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com"]Fellow Pieters:
Does fiberglass deteriorate in gas after time? Specifically a fiberglass rod
such as a driveway marker?
Ken H
Be a better friend, newshound, and
> [b]
The key is the resin system. Fiberglass is just that - fiberglass - and it is vey
resistant to most chemicals. The choice of resin binder system is what determines
chemical compatibilty in a composite material. There are several choices
- epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, melamine, thermoplastics... the list goes on,
all depends on the product. You would have to test. If in doubt and you want
a rod for a specific purpose I'd suggest McMaster Carr or some other place so
you can buy something that can be identified.
Amsafetyc - what do you mean you doubt it is even gas after 45 days...? Ethanol
or methanol and gasoline are compatible and don't react. If they did there would
be quite a few consumer warnings to drain auto gas tanks and not to store
lawnmower gas for longer than a month.
Mike
--------
Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165551#165551
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: To All the Newbies |
I just cleaned all the garbage out of that list 2 days ago and it's back again!
I'm going to use the snow excuse to get out of work early today and fix that problem
once and for all. The real problem is that I tried to make things easily
accessible so you wouldn't need an id and password. I'll have to lock it down
and release a general id and password to the whole list. Maybe while I'm at
it I'll add in different options for sorting the list and a search so you can
find people by name/location.
--------
Glenn Thomas
N?????
http://www.flyingwood.com
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165553#165553
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
Clif,
What about spars of laminated strips of Hemlock?
Or do you have other plans...
Bill
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:05 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
If I could get it in the necessary size I would use it for spars.
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Compatibility between alcohols and gasoline is not disputed however anyone
that's tried using old gasoline has experienced the impact of fuel that has
degraded into both varnish and gum and crud which have little value as a
motor fuel.
I guess you have never had to clean a carburetor that was gunked up form old
fuel.
Again from personal experience and information I have gleaned; gasoline does
have a shelf life because of its inability to retain its properties as a
motor fuel, from what I have read. I suppose that's the reason many
manufacturers of utility and recreational engines recommend that prolonged storage
of the
engine, fuel should be removed or treated with a stabilizing agent as
provided in the instructions in the storage section of the manual.
>From personal experience with my motorcycle I know that to be true!
So what exactly are your disputing in my slightly exaggerated statement of
45 day no longer being gasoline?
I look forward to learning about experience in using old gasoline.
John
In a message dated 2/22/2008 9:37:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
mjdt@auracom.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "MikeD" <mjdt@auracom.com>
[quote="kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com"]Fellow Pieters:
Does fiberglass deteriorate in gas after time? Specifically a fiberglass rod
such as a driveway marker?
Ken H
Be a better friend, newshound, and
> [b]
The key is the resin system. Fiberglass is just that - fiberglass - and it
is vey resistant to most chemicals. The choice of resin binder system is what
determines chemical compatibilty in a composite material. There are several
choices - epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, melamine, thermoplastics... the list
goes on, all depends on the product. You would have to test. If in doubt and
you want a rod for a specific purpose I'd suggest McMaster Carr or some other
place so you can buy something that can be identified.
Amsafetyc - what do you mean you doubt it is even gas after 45 days...?
Ethanol or methanol and gasoline are compatible and don't react. If they did
there would be quite a few consumer warnings to drain auto gas tanks and not to
store lawnmower gas for longer than a month.
Mike
--------
Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165551#165551
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE |
11-07
That will buff out.
-Scott
----- Original Message -----
From: "MikeD" <mjdt@auracom.com>
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:05 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE
11-07
>
>
> Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal wrote:
>> I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on.
>> This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I
>> decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my
>> Pietenpol.
>>
>> Jack Phillips
>> Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina
>>
>> --
>
>
> Oopsy. This happened during a ground run-up. The brakes were full on, then
> something happened and it broke loose. There were 7-8 test personnel on
> board and a few were injured. The airplane is a bit messed up!
>
> Mike
>
> --------
> Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165547#165547
>
>
>
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Control question |
I have a question regarding control travel. I'm building my control column and
would like to know how much travel the stick has before it hits the stops. If
someone who has a flying piet with controls made to the plans would give me
some measurements of stick deflection. IF you have a stock length stick then
maybe a distance forward and aft from vertical to the control stops and then a
distance right and left from vertical to the stops. If your stick isn't stock
length then a distance up the stick that the deflection was measured at would
be helpful. I'll put my stops in once everything is assembled and I check actual
control surface movement. I just want to know so I can check on my installation
of the control column itself. Thank you to anyone who will take the
time to measure this for me.
Mike Groah
---------------------------------
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
For what it's worth.
If anyone doubts that alcohol will harm fiberglass, all you need to do is
contact "Boat US". Hugh problem with boat fuel tanks since alcohol was
introduced into gas.
Most Avid Airplane kits come with fiberglass tanks and a number of problems
reported if alcohol was used.
I'd be very careful before I put anything firberglass in a gas tank if there
is any possibility you will use alcohol.
I have been told that there is a alcohol resistant resin that can be used,
as Mike suggests.
Gene
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
Hi Gary,
I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but have
not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated spars like
MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will probably depend
on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings.
Cheers, Jim
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
We are having an Aerobatics special on our radio show this week. We will
have Patty Wagstaff as a guest. We will also have aerobatics instructor and
former Red Barron Squadron member Keoki Gray as a guest. It should be a lot
of fun. Check the web site below to listen.
Brian Kraut
www.flighttimeradio.com
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it
easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full
length? Just thinking 'out loud'...
Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be
helpful.
Gary
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jimboyer@hughes.net
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
Hi Gary,
I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but
have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated
spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will
probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings.
Cheers, Jim
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
I know you're not talking to me but I would have to say that Mike's video
and Chuck's video are both good resources to have. You will pick up some
nice little bits of advice like lengthening some of the metal fittings,
etc.
Mike's video speaks more to the construction, desing, modification and
Chucks more to the flying. Both have elements of each. I watch mine
frequently.
That's my unsolicited $0.02.
Glenn
On 2/22/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but i
s
> it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
> joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be fu
ll
> length? Just thinking 'out loud'=85..
>
>
> Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would
> be helpful.
>
>
> Gary
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:
> owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *
> jimboyer@hughes.net
> *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM
> *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
>
>
> Hi Gary,
>
> I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now
> but have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do
> laminated spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks
so
> it will probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the
> wings.
>
> Cheers, Jim
>
> * *
>
> * *
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> **
>
> *http://www.matronics.com/contribution*
>
> * *
>
> *
>
===========
===========
===========
===========
> *
>
>
--
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially with
modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid spar.
AC 43-13 1B permits the replacement of a solid spar with a laminated spar.
(If you don't have a copy, you need to get one - and read it).
The wood used for solid spars is usually the best quality wood available, as
it is basically carrying the whole load. Most of the other members in the
airplane are gusseted and reinforced, whereas the spar "is what it is". It
is much easier to get hold of fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 3/4" (or 3/4"
x 1/2", or whatever) wood with the proper characteristics (growth rings,
grain runout, etc) than it is to find fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 5"
clear wood that meets the specs. If joints in the lamination strips cannot
be avoided, they must be scarfed joints, staggered as far apart as possible,
and located as far outboard as possible (where the stresses are lower).
Laminated spars is not a new idea. I have read that BH Pietenpol used
laminated spars in his later creations.
Laminated spars are definitely more labor intensive, but if you are paying
yourself the same wage that I'm paying myself to build my plane, the labor
cost is negligible. There should be a definite savings in material cost,
though.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use a laminated spar. But I'm planning to
use a built-up spar like they do in the UK. It is reportedly stronger,
lighter and cheaper than a solid Spruce spar.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it
easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full
length? Just thinking 'out loud'...
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
>From Pietenpol's notes on how he built the first Air Camper designed to use the
Corvair:
"The wing spars were made of seven 3/4" x 3/4" strips ans 1/8" plywood plates on
the sides, where all the fittings and ribs are located."
Personally, I would recommend Mike Cuy's video. It is a very interesting walkthrough
of a beautiful airplane, numerous motivational flying sequences, and all
sorts of construction methods, hints, and tricks that he used.
Ryan
Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);}
o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape
{behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) }
I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is,
but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full
length? Just thinking out loud..
Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be
helpful.
Gary
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 18
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
Glenn,
I meant to reply to Jim off list, but your $0.02 is appreciated..check's in
the mail! I have Mike's contact info, can you give me Chuck's?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Thomas
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
I know you're not talking to me but I would have to say that Mike's video
and Chuck's video are both good resources to have. You will pick up some
nice little bits of advice like lengthening some of the metal fittings, etc.
Mike's video speaks more to the construction, desing, modification and
Chucks more to the flying. Both have elements of each. I watch mine
frequently.
That's my unsolicited $0.02.
Glenn
On 2/22/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it
easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full
length? Just thinking 'out loud'...
Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be
helpful.
Gary
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
jimboyer@hughes.net
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
Hi Gary,
I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but
have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated
spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will
probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings.
Cheers, Jim
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com/"
target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com <http://forums.matronics.com/>
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution"
target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
--
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
Message 19
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
Thanks, Bill. AC 43-13 point taken - and I do have a copy. I am learning how
much room for variation and "experimentation" there is!
Gary Boothe
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially with
modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid spar.
AC 43-13 1B permits the replacement of a solid spar with a laminated spar.
(If you don't have a copy, you need to get one - and read it).
The wood used for solid spars is usually the best quality wood available, as
it is basically carrying the whole load. Most of the other members in the
airplane are gusseted and reinforced, whereas the spar "is what it is". It
is much easier to get hold of fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 3/4" (or 3/4"
x 1/2", or whatever) wood with the proper characteristics (growth rings,
grain runout, etc) than it is to find fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 5"
clear wood that meets the specs. If joints in the lamination strips cannot
be avoided, they must be scarfed joints, staggered as far apart as possible,
and located as far outboard as possible (where the stresses are lower).
Laminated spars is not a new idea. I have read that BH Pietenpol used
laminated spars in his later creations.
Laminated spars are definitely more labor intensive, but if you are paying
yourself the same wage that I'm paying myself to build my plane, the labor
cost is negligible. There should be a definite savings in material cost,
though.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use a laminated spar. But I'm planning to
use a built-up spar like they do in the UK. It is reportedly stronger,
lighter and cheaper than a solid Spruce spar.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:51 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it
easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue
joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full
length? Just thinking 'out loud'...
Message 20
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Tapered Spar Scare |
Dear Glenn,
AMEN to that!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165633#165633
Message 21
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Control question |
I'm planning to fly this weekend, I'll check.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165635#165635
Message 22
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: To All the Newbies |
To add to Bill's list, check out Chris Tracy's website at
www.westcoastpiet.com
Lots of pictures and info, including alternative spar information.
Greg C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:42 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: To All the Newbies
Things have gotten busy on this list lately. Welcome to all the new
members of the list.
I think we can put the blame for a lot of the new interest squarely on
the shoulders of Dick Navratil and his new round-engined Piet on the
cover of Sport Aviation. Well done, Dick.
For those of you out there that are not aware of it, there are a
couple of resources that I haven't heard mentioned lately, so I thought
I'd bring them up.
1. The Pietenpol Frappr site. It is a map that shows where a lot of
Piet builders/owners are located. Go to this site to see if there's
anyone near your location, and add yourself, and a photo, if you like:
http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol
2. Glenn Thomas' Pietenpol Directory. Glenn is a grumpy guy, but he
has a nice website. Just kidding - Glenn is a first-class individual,
and has generously offered a page of his website where we can all list
our info. Up near the top of the home page (on the left side) of Glenn's
really nice Pietenpol Build website, there is a link to a directory of
Pietenpol Builders/owners that has a lot of the members of this list
registered. For some reason, it seems that recently, the list has become
populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past the first
six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants. Everyone is
welcome to post their info at this site as well. Here's the link for
that one:
http://www.flyingwood.com/
Bill C.
Message 23
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Control question |
On NX18235 the rudder stops are placed so the rudder won't hit the
elevator.
Aileron stops are installed but are pointless since the stick hits my
legs before the stops.
No elevator stops installed.
I know you asked for measurements but since no two are built alike.....
Greg C.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Groah
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:56 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control question
I have a question regarding control travel. I'm building my control
column and would like to know how much travel the stick has before it
hits the stops. If someone who has a flying piet with controls made to
the plans would give me some measurements of stick deflection. IF you
have a stock length stick then maybe a distance forward and aft from
vertical to the control stops and then a distance right and left from
vertical to the stops. If your stick isn't stock length then a distance
up the stick that the deflection was measured at would be helpful. I'll
put my stops in once everything is assembled and I check actual control
surface movement. I just want to know so I can check on my installation
of the control column itself. Thank you to anyone who will take the
time to measure this for me.
Mike Groah
Message 24
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
Gary Boothe wrote:
>
> I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but
> is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all
> those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces
> have to be full length?
>
If you look inside early Cubs and the like, you will find solid plank
spars, laminated full-length sticks, laminations with spliced
sticks--pretty much whatever they had on hand. It all worked, even
before the development of modern glues. I live in Florida, where
spar-quality wood is relatively easy to find if you don't mind paying
boatyard prices, but my spars are likely to be pieced up from the best
sticks I can find at the local lumberyard.
Of course, my current plan is to save weight by using a one-piece wing,
and a plywood-web spar would save a little bit more. It also avoids
having to plane down 5/4 or 2x stock because 1x is not even an honest
3/4 these days.
Last thought: I'd seriously consider poplar, especially for a
plywood-web spar. It habitually grows straighter than anything else that
is readily available, and any weight penalty pretty much disappears if
you combine it with plywood.
Comments invited.
Owen
Message 25
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
When you buy your stock, buy rough stock or hit and miss, then when you plane it
yourself you can get a good 7/8 or 13/16 from 4/4 stock.
Del
. It also avoids
having to plane down 5/4 or 2x stock because 1x is not even an honest
3/4 these days.
Del-New Richmond, Wi
"farmerdel@rocketmail.com"
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Message 26
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
Hi Gary,
The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by their equivalent
of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen in Peter's photos
on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe Mike laminated his spars
and several others have a well.
Laminated spars are stronger than plain plank spars. The glue joints are stronger
than the wood so don't worry about that, just get good coverage with the glue;
I'm using T88 epoxy and I think Chuck Gantzer also used T88.
Cheers, Jim
Message 27
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
jimboyer@hughes.net wrote:
>
> The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by
> their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen
> in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe
> Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well.
>
Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it.
Thanks.
Owen
Message 28
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Spruce Alternatives |
Owen,
http://www.cpc-world.com.
Peter.
Wonthaggi Australia
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies
Sent: Saturday, 23 February 2008 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
jimboyer@hughes.net wrote:
>
> The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by
> their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen
> in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe
> Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well.
>
Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it.
Thanks.
Owen
6:39 PM
6:39 PM
Message 29
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
http://www.cpc-world.com/
is Peter's site. Also, I think someone asked for Chuck G's contact info regarding
his video. His site is located at:
http://nx770cg.com/
There is contact info there. I have no idea how current, but it's better than nothing.
Good night,
Ryan
jimboyer@hughes.net wrote:
>
> The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by
> their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen
> in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe
> Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well.
>
Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it.
Thanks.
Owen
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 30
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce PurchaseI'm working on the cabanes now.
They are solid hemlock
stock. The widest part is 3/4" X 2 1/4" fully streamlined,
narrowing to 3/4 X 1 1/4" at the ends with bolted, 3" long
metal plates on each side.
Going to Victoria this weekend so won't be answering
messages until Tuesday. Or working on the struts!
Just so you know. :-)
Clif
No computers in my plane either!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:47 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
Clif,
What about spars of laminated strips of Hemlock?
Or do you have other plans...
Bill
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif
Dawson
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:05 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
If I could get it in the necessary size I would use it for spars.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
2/22/2008 6:39 PM
Message 31
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
Sorry Bill, your mixing things up. The glue joint is only
stronger when you try to pull it apart or twist it. In which case
the wood will BREAK and splinter before the glue itself
will separate.
In a spar you have three basic situations. One edge will be
in compression, the opposite edge will be in tension and
the center is neutral. The glue is not like a strip of carbon
fibre which adds strength to those areas that are pushed or
pulled, as in the outer parts of a spar. That would require
the glue to have tensile and compression strengths it just
does not have. If it did you could simply paint a layer on
both edges of any spar to increase it's strength.
The sole purpose of laminating is to use smaller, shorter,
narrower, etc. material to save material and cost.
Bernard experimented with this to allow those without the
mony to buy gold, er, spruce solid boards, to afford to
build the wings.
I have found that around here it's easy to find very nice
flat grain boards. Edge grain is VERY hard to come by.
So I will buy 2 by 6,8,10 boards, rip them to 1 3/16" strips,
glue them to make an edge grain spar then plane that
down to 1". After all, I do gotta use this planer I bought
for something! right?
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:30 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives
If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially
with modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid
spar.
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|