---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 02/22/08: 31 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:31 AM - FW: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (Phillips, Jack) 2. 05:45 AM - To All the Newbies (Bill Church) 3. 06:07 AM - Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (MikeD) 4. 06:10 AM - Re: To All the Newbies (MikeD) 5. 06:36 AM - Re: Question (MikeD) 6. 06:49 AM - Re: To All the Newbies (Glenn Thomas) 7. 07:50 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Bill Church) 8. 08:19 AM - Re: Re: Question (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 9. 08:46 AM - Re: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 (Scott Schreiber) 10. 08:59 AM - Control question (Michael Groah) 11. 09:20 AM - Re: Re: Question (Gene & Tammy) 12. 09:50 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (jimboyer@hughes.net) 13. 12:42 PM - Radio Show (Brian Kraut) 14. 12:53 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe) 15. 01:24 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Glenn Thomas) 16. 01:34 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Bill Church) 17. 01:35 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller) 18. 01:40 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe) 19. 01:49 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe) 20. 02:57 PM - Re: Tapered Spar Scare (Don Emch) 21. 03:00 PM - Re: Control question (Don Emch) 22. 03:00 PM - Re: To All the Newbies (gcardinal) 23. 03:06 PM - Re: Control question (gcardinal) 24. 04:17 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies) 25. 04:33 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (del magsam) 26. 05:34 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (jimboyer@hughes.net) 27. 06:28 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies) 28. 06:44 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Peter W Johnson) 29. 07:00 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller) 30. 07:54 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Clif Dawson) 31. 09:58 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: FW: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 From: "Phillips, Jack" I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on. This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my Pietenpol. Jack Phillips Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina -----Original Message----- From: owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of David McNeill Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 TIMEOUT FOR HUMOR Arabs WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 These are pictures of the wreck of a brand new A340-600, that had never flown. (never saw (1) hour in the air) Thank these French and their Arab friends for this bit of "comedy of errors". Nine employees of the Arab airline were in the aircraft, but "no employees" from Airbus were present. The Arab's taxied out to the run-up area. Then they took all four engines to takeoff power with virtually an empty aircraft. (They obvious didn't read the run-up manuals.) No chocks were set, (not that it would have mattered at that power setting). "Brakes will not hold it back at full power anyway". As it turns out the takeoff warning horn was blaring away in the cockpit because they had all FOUR engines at full power. The aircraft computers thought they were trying to takeoff but it had not been configured properly (flaps/slats, etc, etc). Then one of these brain surgeons decided to pull the "Ground Sense" circuit breaker to quiet the alarms. This fools the aircraft into thinking it is in the air."A big, big mistake"! As soon as they did that, the computers automaticlly "released" all the brakes. ("this is a Safety feature so that pilots don't land with the brakes on".)There was No time to stop and no one smart enough thought to reduce the max power setting..... So the rest is as you see it below. No one is talking, so who knows if there were survivors. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: To All the Newbies From: "Bill Church" Things have gotten busy on this list lately. Welcome to all the new members of the list. I think we can put the blame for a lot of the new interest squarely on the shoulders of Dick Navratil and his new round-engined Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. Well done, Dick. For those of you out there that are not aware of it, there are a couple of resources that I haven't heard mentioned lately, so I thought I'd bring them up. 1. The Pietenpol Frappr site. It is a map that shows where a lot of Piet builders/owners are located. Go to this site to see if there's anyone near your location, and add yourself, and a photo, if you like: http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol 2. Glenn Thomas' Pietenpol Directory. Glenn is a grumpy guy, but he has a nice website. Just kidding - Glenn is a first-class individual, and has generously offered a page of his website where we can all list our info. Up near the top of the home page (on the left side) of Glenn's really nice Pietenpol Build website, there is a link to a directory of Pietenpol Builders/owners that has a lot of the members of this list registered. For some reason, it seems that recently, the list has become populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past the first six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants. Everyone is welcome to post their info at this site as well. Here's the link for that one: http://www.flyingwood.com/ Bill C. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:07:58 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 From: "MikeD" Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal wrote: > I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on. > This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I > decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my > Pietenpol. > > Jack Phillips > Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina > > -- Oopsy. This happened during a ground run-up. The brakes were full on, then something happened and it broke loose. There were 7-8 test personnel on board and a few were injured. The airplane is a bit messed up! Mike -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165547#165547 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:10:09 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: To All the Newbies From: "MikeD" [quote="eng(at)canadianrogers.com"]For some reason, it seems that recently, the list has become populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past the first six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants. Bill C. > [b] With a URL like "flyingwood" what would you expect!? [Laughing] Just grab the right joystick when it's time to flare... -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165548#165548 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:36:29 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Question From: "MikeD" [quote="kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com"]Fellow Pieters: Does fiberglass deteriorate in gas after time? Specifically a fiberglass rod such as a driveway marker? Ken H Be a better friend, newshound, and > [b] The key is the resin system. Fiberglass is just that - fiberglass - and it is vey resistant to most chemicals. The choice of resin binder system is what determines chemical compatibilty in a composite material. There are several choices - epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, melamine, thermoplastics... the list goes on, all depends on the product. You would have to test. If in doubt and you want a rod for a specific purpose I'd suggest McMaster Carr or some other place so you can buy something that can be identified. Amsafetyc - what do you mean you doubt it is even gas after 45 days...? Ethanol or methanol and gasoline are compatible and don't react. If they did there would be quite a few consumer warnings to drain auto gas tanks and not to store lawnmower gas for longer than a month. Mike -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165551#165551 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:49:48 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: To All the Newbies From: "Glenn Thomas" I just cleaned all the garbage out of that list 2 days ago and it's back again! I'm going to use the snow excuse to get out of work early today and fix that problem once and for all. The real problem is that I tried to make things easily accessible so you wouldn't need an id and password. I'll have to lock it down and release a general id and password to the whole list. Maybe while I'm at it I'll add in different options for sorting the list and a search so you can find people by name/location. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165553#165553 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:21 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Clif, What about spars of laminated strips of Hemlock? Or do you have other plans... Bill _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:05 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives If I could get it in the necessary size I would use it for spars. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:19:43 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Question Compatibility between alcohols and gasoline is not disputed however anyone that's tried using old gasoline has experienced the impact of fuel that has degraded into both varnish and gum and crud which have little value as a motor fuel. I guess you have never had to clean a carburetor that was gunked up form old fuel. Again from personal experience and information I have gleaned; gasoline does have a shelf life because of its inability to retain its properties as a motor fuel, from what I have read. I suppose that's the reason many manufacturers of utility and recreational engines recommend that prolonged storage of the engine, fuel should be removed or treated with a stabilizing agent as provided in the instructions in the storage section of the manual. >From personal experience with my motorcycle I know that to be true! So what exactly are your disputing in my slightly exaggerated statement of 45 day no longer being gasoline? I look forward to learning about experience in using old gasoline. John In a message dated 2/22/2008 9:37:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, mjdt@auracom.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "MikeD" [quote="kmheidecpo(at)yahoo.com"]Fellow Pieters: Does fiberglass deteriorate in gas after time? Specifically a fiberglass rod such as a driveway marker? Ken H Be a better friend, newshound, and > [b] The key is the resin system. Fiberglass is just that - fiberglass - and it is vey resistant to most chemicals. The choice of resin binder system is what determines chemical compatibilty in a composite material. There are several choices - epoxy, vinyl ester, polyester, melamine, thermoplastics... the list goes on, all depends on the product. You would have to test. If in doubt and you want a rod for a specific purpose I'd suggest McMaster Carr or some other place so you can buy something that can be identified. Amsafetyc - what do you mean you doubt it is even gas after 45 days...? Ethanol or methanol and gasoline are compatible and don't react. If they did there would be quite a few consumer warnings to drain auto gas tanks and not to store lawnmower gas for longer than a month. Mike -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165551#165551 **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598) ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:46:42 AM PST US From: "Scott Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 That will buff out. -Scott ----- Original Message ----- From: "MikeD" Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:05 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: RV10-List: WRECKED A340-600 at TULOUSE FRANCE 11-07 > > > Jack.Phillips(at)cardinal wrote: >> I found this on the RV-10 list this morning and thought I'd pass it on. >> This is what happens when you let computers control airplanes. Glad I >> decided not to put the fly-by-wire and flight control computers in my >> Pietenpol. >> >> Jack Phillips >> Shivering in 34 degree rain in North Carolina >> >> -- > > > Oopsy. This happened during a ground run-up. The brakes were full on, then > something happened and it broke loose. There were 7-8 test personnel on > board and a few were injured. The airplane is a bit messed up! > > Mike > > -------- > Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165547#165547 > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:39 AM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control question I have a question regarding control travel. I'm building my control column and would like to know how much travel the stick has before it hits the stops. If someone who has a flying piet with controls made to the plans would give me some measurements of stick deflection. IF you have a stock length stick then maybe a distance forward and aft from vertical to the control stops and then a distance right and left from vertical to the stops. If your stick isn't stock length then a distance up the stick that the deflection was measured at would be helpful. I'll put my stops in once everything is assembled and I check actual control surface movement. I just want to know so I can check on my installation of the control column itself. Thank you to anyone who will take the time to measure this for me. Mike Groah --------------------------------- ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:24 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Question For what it's worth. If anyone doubts that alcohol will harm fiberglass, all you need to do is contact "Boat US". Hugh problem with boat fuel tanks since alcohol was introduced into gas. Most Avid Airplane kits come with fiberglass tanks and a number of problems reported if alcohol was used. I'd be very careful before I put anything firberglass in a gas tank if there is any possibility you will use alcohol. I have been told that there is a alcohol resistant resin that can be used, as Mike suggests. Gene ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:51 AM PST US From: "jimboyer@hughes.net" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Hi Gary, I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings. Cheers, Jim ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:42:11 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Radio Show We are having an Aerobatics special on our radio show this week. We will have Patty Wagstaff as a guest. We will also have aerobatics instructor and former Red Barron Squadron member Keoki Gray as a guest. It should be a lot of fun. Check the web site below to listen. Brian Kraut www.flighttimeradio.com ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:52 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full length? Just thinking 'out loud'... Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be helpful. Gary _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimboyer@hughes.net Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Hi Gary, I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings. Cheers, Jim ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:37 PM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives I know you're not talking to me but I would have to say that Mike's video and Chuck's video are both good resources to have. You will pick up some nice little bits of advice like lengthening some of the metal fittings, etc. Mike's video speaks more to the construction, desing, modification and Chucks more to the flying. Both have elements of each. I watch mine frequently. That's my unsolicited $0.02. Glenn On 2/22/08, Gary Boothe wrote: > > I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but i s > it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue > joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be fu ll > length? Just thinking 'out loud'=85.. > > > Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would > be helpful. > > > Gary > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of * > jimboyer@hughes.net > *Sent:* Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives > > > Hi Gary, > > I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now > but have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do > laminated spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so > it will probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the > wings. > > Cheers, Jim > > * * > > * * > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > ** > > *http://www.matronics.com/contribution* > > * * > > * > =========== =========== =========== =========== > * > > -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:34:57 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially with modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid spar. AC 43-13 1B permits the replacement of a solid spar with a laminated spar. (If you don't have a copy, you need to get one - and read it). The wood used for solid spars is usually the best quality wood available, as it is basically carrying the whole load. Most of the other members in the airplane are gusseted and reinforced, whereas the spar "is what it is". It is much easier to get hold of fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 3/4" (or 3/4" x 1/2", or whatever) wood with the proper characteristics (growth rings, grain runout, etc) than it is to find fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 5" clear wood that meets the specs. If joints in the lamination strips cannot be avoided, they must be scarfed joints, staggered as far apart as possible, and located as far outboard as possible (where the stresses are lower). Laminated spars is not a new idea. I have read that BH Pietenpol used laminated spars in his later creations. Laminated spars are definitely more labor intensive, but if you are paying yourself the same wage that I'm paying myself to build my plane, the labor cost is negligible. There should be a definite savings in material cost, though. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use a laminated spar. But I'm planning to use a built-up spar like they do in the UK. It is reportedly stronger, lighter and cheaper than a solid Spruce spar. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full length? Just thinking 'out loud'... ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:35:15 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives >From Pietenpol's notes on how he built the first Air Camper designed to use the Corvair: "The wing spars were made of seven 3/4" x 3/4" strips ans 1/8" plywood plates on the sides, where all the fittings and ribs are located." Personally, I would recommend Mike Cuy's video. It is a very interesting walkthrough of a beautiful airplane, numerous motivational flying sequences, and all sorts of construction methods, hints, and tricks that he used. Ryan Gary Boothe wrote: v\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full length? Just thinking out loud.. Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be helpful. Gary --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:40:32 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Glenn, I meant to reply to Jim off list, but your $0.02 is appreciated..check's in the mail! I have Mike's contact info, can you give me Chuck's? Gary Boothe Cool, CA Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Thomas Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives I know you're not talking to me but I would have to say that Mike's video and Chuck's video are both good resources to have. You will pick up some nice little bits of advice like lengthening some of the metal fittings, etc. Mike's video speaks more to the construction, desing, modification and Chucks more to the flying. Both have elements of each. I watch mine frequently. That's my unsolicited $0.02. Glenn On 2/22/08, Gary Boothe wrote: I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full length? Just thinking 'out loud'... Speaking of Mike Cuy; did you purchase his video? It sounds like it would be helpful. Gary _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimboyer@hughes.net Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Hi Gary, I definitely am using Fir for the spars. I have the planks for them now but have not decided if I will use them as is or cut them up and do laminated spars like MIke Cuy and other have done. Easier to use a planks so it will probably depend on what kind of a time crunch when I get to the wings. Cheers, Jim http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com/" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:07 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Thanks, Bill. AC 43-13 point taken - and I do have a copy. I am learning how much room for variation and "experimentation" there is! Gary Boothe Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially with modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid spar. AC 43-13 1B permits the replacement of a solid spar with a laminated spar. (If you don't have a copy, you need to get one - and read it). The wood used for solid spars is usually the best quality wood available, as it is basically carrying the whole load. Most of the other members in the airplane are gusseted and reinforced, whereas the spar "is what it is". It is much easier to get hold of fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 3/4" (or 3/4" x 1/2", or whatever) wood with the proper characteristics (growth rings, grain runout, etc) than it is to find fourteen-foot lengths of 3/4" x 5" clear wood that meets the specs. If joints in the lamination strips cannot be avoided, they must be scarfed joints, staggered as far apart as possible, and located as far outboard as possible (where the stresses are lower). Laminated spars is not a new idea. I have read that BH Pietenpol used laminated spars in his later creations. Laminated spars are definitely more labor intensive, but if you are paying yourself the same wage that I'm paying myself to build my plane, the labor cost is negligible. There should be a definite savings in material cost, though. Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to use a laminated spar. But I'm planning to use a built-up spar like they do in the UK. It is reportedly stronger, lighter and cheaper than a solid Spruce spar. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces have to be full length? Just thinking 'out loud'... ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:57:48 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Tapered Spar Scare From: "Don Emch" Dear Glenn, AMEN to that! Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165633#165633 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:46 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Control question From: "Don Emch" I'm planning to fly this weekend, I'll check. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165635#165635 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:00:53 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: To All the Newbies To add to Bill's list, check out Chris Tracy's website at www.westcoastpiet.com Lots of pictures and info, including alternative spar information. Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: To All the Newbies Things have gotten busy on this list lately. Welcome to all the new members of the list. I think we can put the blame for a lot of the new interest squarely on the shoulders of Dick Navratil and his new round-engined Piet on the cover of Sport Aviation. Well done, Dick. For those of you out there that are not aware of it, there are a couple of resources that I haven't heard mentioned lately, so I thought I'd bring them up. 1. The Pietenpol Frappr site. It is a map that shows where a lot of Piet builders/owners are located. Go to this site to see if there's anyone near your location, and add yourself, and a photo, if you like: http://www.frappr.com/pietenpol 2. Glenn Thomas' Pietenpol Directory. Glenn is a grumpy guy, but he has a nice website. Just kidding - Glenn is a first-class individual, and has generously offered a page of his website where we can all list our info. Up near the top of the home page (on the left side) of Glenn's really nice Pietenpol Build website, there is a link to a directory of Pietenpol Builders/owners that has a lot of the members of this list registered. For some reason, it seems that recently, the list has become populated with Viagra messages, but if you scroll down past the first six or seven entries, you'll get to the real registrants. Everyone is welcome to post their info at this site as well. Here's the link for that one: http://www.flyingwood.com/ Bill C. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:58 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Control question On NX18235 the rudder stops are placed so the rudder won't hit the elevator. Aileron stops are installed but are pointless since the stick hits my legs before the stops. No elevator stops installed. I know you asked for measurements but since no two are built alike..... Greg C. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Groah To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 10:56 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Control question I have a question regarding control travel. I'm building my control column and would like to know how much travel the stick has before it hits the stops. If someone who has a flying piet with controls made to the plans would give me some measurements of stick deflection. IF you have a stock length stick then maybe a distance forward and aft from vertical to the control stops and then a distance right and left from vertical to the stops. If your stick isn't stock length then a distance up the stick that the deflection was measured at would be helpful. I'll put my stops in once everything is assembled and I check actual control surface movement. I just want to know so I can check on my installation of the control column itself. Thank you to anyone who will take the time to measure this for me. Mike Groah ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:17:37 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Gary Boothe wrote: > > I had not heard that laminating spars was OK. Fine by me if it is, but > is it easier to find four good pieces of wood, or worry about all > those glue joints? If the joints are not a problem, do all the pieces > have to be full length? > If you look inside early Cubs and the like, you will find solid plank spars, laminated full-length sticks, laminations with spliced sticks--pretty much whatever they had on hand. It all worked, even before the development of modern glues. I live in Florida, where spar-quality wood is relatively easy to find if you don't mind paying boatyard prices, but my spars are likely to be pieced up from the best sticks I can find at the local lumberyard. Of course, my current plan is to save weight by using a one-piece wing, and a plywood-web spar would save a little bit more. It also avoids having to plane down 5/4 or 2x stock because 1x is not even an honest 3/4 these days. Last thought: I'd seriously consider poplar, especially for a plywood-web spar. It habitually grows straighter than anything else that is readily available, and any weight penalty pretty much disappears if you combine it with plywood. Comments invited. Owen ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:33:55 PM PST US From: del magsam Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives When you buy your stock, buy rough stock or hit and miss, then when you plane it yourself you can get a good 7/8 or 13/16 from 4/4 stock. Del . It also avoids having to plane down 5/4 or 2x stock because 1x is not even an honest 3/4 these days. Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:34:42 PM PST US From: "jimboyer@hughes.net" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Hi Gary, The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well. Laminated spars are stronger than plain plank spars. The glue joints are stronger than the wood so don't worry about that, just get good coverage with the glue; I'm using T88 epoxy and I think Chuck Gantzer also used T88. Cheers, Jim ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:00 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives jimboyer@hughes.net wrote: > > The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by > their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen > in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe > Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well. > Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it. Thanks. Owen ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:44:44 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Owen, http://www.cpc-world.com. Peter. Wonthaggi Australia -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies Sent: Saturday, 23 February 2008 1:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives jimboyer@hughes.net wrote: > > The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by > their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen > in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe > Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well. > Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it. Thanks. Owen 6:39 PM 6:39 PM ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 07:00:08 PM PST US From: Ryan Mueller Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives http://www.cpc-world.com/ is Peter's site. Also, I think someone asked for Chuck G's contact info regarding his video. His site is located at: http://nx770cg.com/ There is contact info there. I have no idea how current, but it's better than nothing. Good night, Ryan jimboyer@hughes.net wrote: > > The UK Pietenpol group is required to use laminated spars I believe by > their equivalent of the FAA. The approved spars are laminated as seen > in Peter's photos on his web site (Peter is in Australia). I believe > Mike laminated his spars and several others have a well. > Does anyone have the URL for Peter's site? I'd like to look at it. Thanks. Owen --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:58 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce PurchaseI'm working on the cabanes now. They are solid hemlock stock. The widest part is 3/4" X 2 1/4" fully streamlined, narrowing to 3/4 X 1 1/4" at the ends with bolted, 3" long metal plates on each side. Going to Victoria this weekend so won't be answering messages until Tuesday. Or working on the struts! Just so you know. :-) Clif No computers in my plane either!!! ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 7:47 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Clif, What about spars of laminated strips of Hemlock? Or do you have other plans... Bill ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 11:05 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives If I could get it in the necessary size I would use it for spars. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- 2/22/2008 6:39 PM ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 09:58:38 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives Sorry Bill, your mixing things up. The glue joint is only stronger when you try to pull it apart or twist it. In which case the wood will BREAK and splinter before the glue itself will separate. In a spar you have three basic situations. One edge will be in compression, the opposite edge will be in tension and the center is neutral. The glue is not like a strip of carbon fibre which adds strength to those areas that are pushed or pulled, as in the outer parts of a spar. That would require the glue to have tensile and compression strengths it just does not have. If it did you could simply paint a layer on both edges of any spar to increase it's strength. The sole purpose of laminating is to use smaller, shorter, narrower, etc. material to save material and cost. Bernard experimented with this to allow those without the mony to buy gold, er, spruce solid boards, to afford to build the wings. I have found that around here it's easy to find very nice flat grain boards. Edge grain is VERY hard to come by. So I will buy 2 by 6,8,10 boards, rip them to 1 3/16" strips, glue them to make an edge grain spar then plane that down to 1". After all, I do gotta use this planer I bought for something! right? Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, February 22, 2008 1:30 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spruce Alternatives If done properly, the glue joint is stronger than the wood, especially with modern glues. So a laminated spar is actually stronger than a solid spar. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.