Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: Continental engine drawing file (Rob Stapleton, Jr.)
2. 05:19 AM - Re: Continental engine drawing file (MikeD)
3. 06:18 AM - Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
4. 06:39 AM - Ron Kelly Ford (Douwe Blumberg)
5. 06:51 AM - Re: Ron Kelly Ford (Owen Davies)
6. 06:53 AM - Re: Continental engine drawing file (Bill Church)
7. 07:33 AM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Brian Kraut)
8. 07:40 AM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Brian Kraut)
9. 09:51 AM - Re: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
10. 10:02 AM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller)
11. 10:42 AM - Pietenpol auction (Brian Kraut)
12. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Ryan Mueller)
13. 11:00 AM - Re: Pietenpol auction (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
14. 11:32 AM - Fuel tank question (Oscar Zuniga)
15. 11:54 AM - Re: Fuel tank question (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
16. 01:47 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
17. 02:39 PM - Re: landing gear (bhassel)
18. 03:10 PM - Continental engine drawing file (Oscar Zuniga)
19. 03:57 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Kip and Beth Gardner)
20. 04:35 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
21. 05:27 PM - Re: Re: Piet building (Gene & Tammy)
22. 06:00 PM - Re: Skiing (Don Emch)
23. 06:19 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Michael Silvius)
24. 06:24 PM - Re: Piet building (carson)
25. 06:25 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Michael Silvius)
26. 06:43 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
27. 06:50 PM - Re: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (jimboyer@hughes.net)
28. 06:55 PM - Re: Pietenpol auction (jimboyer@hughes.net)
29. 07:10 PM - Re: Pietenpol auction (Glenn Thomas)
30. 07:33 PM - Re: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Glenn Thomas)
31. 07:35 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
32. 07:51 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Glenn Thomas)
33. 08:43 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Gordon Bowen)
34. 09:38 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
35. 09:40 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Owen Davies)
36. 10:15 PM - Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives) (Gordon Bowen)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Continental engine drawing file |
Can this be converted into a graphic file like a jpeg? I don't use CAD
software, but am curious what this would look like.
Rob in Anchorage, AK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Grover
Summers
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Continental engine drawing file
Mike,
How about a C-90 in AutoCAD format?
Grover
MikeD <mjdt@auracom.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I've hunted around but so far no luck. Does anyone know if and where I
could
scam a CAD file for a Continental A-65 or A-75? I don't need great
detail,
but the basic views that will give me footprint, mounting points, prop
hub
location etc.. IOW what you would need to design an engine mount and
sketch
a cowl around.
Thanks!
Mike
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Continental engine drawing file |
conceptmodels(at)tds.net wrote:
> Have you considered just purchasing an A-65 manual?
> There are plenty of drawings with dimensions included.
> Or did I miss something here
>
> Roman Bukolt A-65 powered Pietenpol, NX20795
> do not archive
>
I like to putter around with a combination of old and new school. I have manuals,
but what I really wanted was to find out if there was someone out there with
a CAD version they would share - but sure I can scan an image and do things
that way. I wanted the drawing both so I could lay out the basics of the engine
mount, which can be done just from dimensions, and also to mess around with
the design of a cowling form. Piet purists shouldn't be too aghast, I do tend
to go back and forth between CAD and pencil sketches. Sometimes I use CAD to lay
out an accurate shell of a particular design of whatever, then I print that
and doodle away with pencil and eraser to add the bits the way I like them.
On the RC model forums I hang out on, for example, usually someone out there has
already drawn the engine or other commercial component I'm dealing with, so
a quick grovel on the appropriate forum will usually get me a response. I also
share whatever I've drawn for the same purposes of course.
Mike
--------
Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166309#166309
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Dick Navratil wrote:
> Resorsinol is the only glue approved for certified aircraft. T-88 has
> been widely used for a long time. Gorilla glue has been discussed on
> the list a few times although I'm not aware of anyone who has actually
> used it.
In New Hampshire, we had a neighbor who used it in a HiMax. His choice
did not make me especially comfortable, but he had not fallen out of the
sky when we heard last. The plane was seven or eight years old when we
left that area.
There was yet another study of glues recently, and I really wish I could
remember where it appeared. It turned out that the polyurethane
glue--don't recall which one they tested--worked fine, but not when used
according to directions. They had to put it on both sides of the joint,
not just one, to get airworthy bonds. What most interested me, though,
was the glue that gave the best joints of all--not resorcinol or T-88,
but ordinary Titebond III. I'd love to know more about its durability
over time, in wings in desert heat, and so on. Given how many airplanes
flew for decades with casein glue and how often I intend to boil my
Piet, I suspect it would be just fine.
There is another gluing technique I'd love to see formally tested, in
the interest of construction speed, if not minimal cost. Several years
ago, one model airplane builder wrote of gluing models by coating both
sides of the bond with the thinnest grade of cyanoacrylate glue, which
really soaks into the wood, and putting thick cyanoacrylate between. His
experience was that the bonds hold for years, in all sorts of horrible
conditions. He had never seen one break; it's always the wood that goes
in a crash, even in areas that have been thoroughly soaked in fuel.
This leads me to wonder what kind of joint you would get by pre-treating
the wood with that very thin epoxy used to build up rotting boat and
construction members before gluing with T-88. In the interests of
marketing, we could make up a combination package with both glues and
call it "T-99." However, I strongly suspect that this is ridiculous
overkill.
Back to polyurethane glues. I would love to get some good test info on
the new Elmer's Nano that the Big Orange Box is carrying. Pending that,
here is the best information I have:
Vick and Okkonen, "Strength and Durability of One-Part Polyurethane
Adhesive Bonds to Wood," Forest Products Journal, 48(11/12), 1998, pp
71-6. "Abstract. One-part polyurethane wood adhesives comprise a new
class of general purpose consumer products. Manufacturers claims of
waterproof bonds brought many inquiries to the Forest Products
Laboratory (FPL) from users constructing aircraft, boats, lawn
furniture, and other laminated materials for outdoor use. Although FPL
has technical information on several types of polyurethane and
isocyanate-based adhesives for wood, no information was available on
this new class of adhesives. Four commercial polyurethane adhesives,
along with a resorcinol-formaldehyde adhesive to represent a standard of
performance, were subjected to a series of industry-accepted tests that
assess varying levels of bond strength and durability. In bonds to
yellow birch and Douglas-fir, the polyurethanes did not differ
significantly from each other in their performance; as a group, though,
their dry shear strengths showed that they were significantly stronger
than the resorcinol. Dry wood failures by the polyurethanes were high
and did not differ significantly from the resorcinol. After three
water-saturating procedures, wet shear strengths of polyurethanes and
the resorcinol were statistically comparable. Wet wood failures,
however, were very low among polyurethanes, which is a sharp contrast to
the high wood failure by the resorcinol. A moderately severe
delamination test indicated varying levels of water resistance among the
polyurethanes, but the resorcinol was completely resistant to
delamination. A very severe cyclic delamination test caused severe
delamination of polyurethane bonds. However, a recently discovered
hydroxymethylated resorcinol (HMR) coupling agent dramatically increased
delamination resistance of polyurethane adhesives. In a test of
resistance to deformation under static loads, polyurethane bonds
withstood extreme exposures of temperature and relative humidity for 60
days without deformation."
Owen
Message 4
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Hey everybody,
Havn't written for a while, been busy with life.
If anyone out there is planning on using a Ford, and doesn't have one
yet, I am considering (at this stage) selling my beautiful Ron Kelly
built engine. It's running on a test stand, and has about 15 hours on
it. Check out his website to see all the good things he does, but it's
producing about 65 hp, has pulled over 2000rpm static with a 76/42 (I
think that's what it is) has two mags, increased oil capacity, insert
bearings, chevrolet pistons for strength and a weber carb, and a
beautiful st Croix prop. It's ready to mount and fly and will save
someone a TON of work.
I'm only considering it at this time because I am thinking about the
possibility of another engine, and if I go that route I won't need the
Ford.
Douwe
douweblumberg@earthlink.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Ron Kelly Ford |
Douwe Blumberg wrote:
> If anyone out there is planning on using a Ford, and doesn't have one
> yet, I am considering (at this stage) selling my beautiful Ron Kelly
> built engine. It's running on a test stand, and has about 15 hours on
> it. Check out his website to see all the good things he does, but
> it's producing about 65 hp, has pulled over 2000rpm static with a
> 76/42 (I think that's what it is) has two mags, increased oil
> capacity, insert bearings, chevrolet pistons for strength and a weber
> carb, and a beautiful st Croix prop. It's ready to mount and fly and
> will save someone a TON of work.
>
> I'm only considering it at this time because I am thinking about the
> possibility of another engine, and if I go that route I won't need the
> Ford.
It would be very tempting. Please keep us advised. (Well, please keep me
advised. Don't tell them until we see whether I have any cash on hand
that week.)
Owen
Message 6
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| Subject: | Continental engine drawing file |
Rob,
How about a PDF file?
I just took the Autocad file of the C90 Grover posted, and converted it to
PDF.
Unfortunately there weren't any dimensions on the Autocad drawing, so I'm
not sure what use this will be.
Anyway, here it is...
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob
Stapleton, Jr.
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:04 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Continental engine drawing file
Can this be converted into a graphic file like a jpeg? I don't use CAD
software, but am curious what this would look like.
Rob in Anchorage, AK
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
I believe that the study you are referring to was in one of the wood working
magazines. I believe it was Mark Langford that posted a copy of the article
or a link to it. I am up to my neck right now and can't look for it, but it
might be found on www.krnet.org.
Oscar, do you still have that email somewhere handy?
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Owen
Davies
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce
Alternatives)
Dick Navratil wrote:
> Resorsinol is the only glue approved for certified aircraft. T-88 has
> been widely used for a long time. Gorilla glue has been discussed on
> the list a few times although I'm not aware of anyone who has actually
> used it.
In New Hampshire, we had a neighbor who used it in a HiMax. His choice
did not make me especially comfortable, but he had not fallen out of the
sky when we heard last. The plane was seven or eight years old when we
left that area.
There was yet another study of glues recently, and I really wish I could
remember where it appeared. It turned out that the polyurethane
glue--don't recall which one they tested--worked fine, but not when used
according to directions. They had to put it on both sides of the joint,
not just one, to get airworthy bonds. What most interested me, though,
was the glue that gave the best joints of all--not resorcinol or T-88,
but ordinary Titebond III. I'd love to know more about its durability
over time, in wings in desert heat, and so on. Given how many airplanes
flew for decades with casein glue and how often I intend to boil my
Piet, I suspect it would be just fine.
There is another gluing technique I'd love to see formally tested, in
the interest of construction speed, if not minimal cost. Several years
ago, one model airplane builder wrote of gluing models by coating both
sides of the bond with the thinnest grade of cyanoacrylate glue, which
really soaks into the wood, and putting thick cyanoacrylate between. His
experience was that the bonds hold for years, in all sorts of horrible
conditions. He had never seen one break; it's always the wood that goes
in a crash, even in areas that have been thoroughly soaked in fuel.
This leads me to wonder what kind of joint you would get by pre-treating
the wood with that very thin epoxy used to build up rotting boat and
construction members before gluing with T-88. In the interests of
marketing, we could make up a combination package with both glues and
call it "T-99." However, I strongly suspect that this is ridiculous
overkill.
Back to polyurethane glues. I would love to get some good test info on
the new Elmer's Nano that the Big Orange Box is carrying. Pending that,
here is the best information I have:
Vick and Okkonen, "Strength and Durability of One-Part Polyurethane
Adhesive Bonds to Wood," Forest Products Journal, 48(11/12), 1998, pp
71-6. "Abstract. One-part polyurethane wood adhesives comprise a new
class of general purpose consumer products. Manufacturers claims of
waterproof bonds brought many inquiries to the Forest Products
Laboratory (FPL) from users constructing aircraft, boats, lawn
furniture, and other laminated materials for outdoor use. Although FPL
has technical information on several types of polyurethane and
isocyanate-based adhesives for wood, no information was available on
this new class of adhesives. Four commercial polyurethane adhesives,
along with a resorcinol-formaldehyde adhesive to represent a standard of
performance, were subjected to a series of industry-accepted tests that
assess varying levels of bond strength and durability. In bonds to
yellow birch and Douglas-fir, the polyurethanes did not differ
significantly from each other in their performance; as a group, though,
their dry shear strengths showed that they were significantly stronger
than the resorcinol. Dry wood failures by the polyurethanes were high
and did not differ significantly from the resorcinol. After three
water-saturating procedures, wet shear strengths of polyurethanes and
the resorcinol were statistically comparable. Wet wood failures,
however, were very low among polyurethanes, which is a sharp contrast to
the high wood failure by the resorcinol. A moderately severe
delamination test indicated varying levels of water resistance among the
polyurethanes, but the resorcinol was completely resistant to
delamination. A very severe cyclic delamination test caused severe
delamination of polyurethane bonds. However, a recently discovered
hydroxymethylated resorcinol (HMR) coupling agent dramatically increased
delamination resistance of polyurethane adhesives. In a test of
resistance to deformation under static loads, polyurethane bonds
withstood extreme exposures of temperature and relative humidity for 60
days without deformation."
Owen
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
I guess it was not as hard to find as I thought. I just searched glue in my
inbox and the email was still there. See the following. My personal
opinion is the T-88 works, is not expensive, and has been proven over a long
time.
-----Original Message-----
From: krnet-bounces@mylist.net [mailto:krnet-bounces@mylist.net]On
Behalf Of Mark Langford
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:11 PM
Subject: KR> epoxy vs urethane glue
A while back we had a discussion on the urethane glues such as Gorilla Glue,
with some folks saying they thought it would make a good structural glue for
fuselalge construction. Ed Janssen sent me an article regarding that, and
it's posted at http://krnet.org/misc/glue/ . It's a very informative
article, even if it's not exactly spruce and plywood. Although T-88 came in
second to Titebond III, it was a very close second with 99% of the strength,
with polyurethane glue down at 58% of the strength.
It would be interesting to test Titebond against T-88 using our wood and our
kinds of joints...
Mark Langford, Huntsville, AL
mail: N56ML "at" hiwaay.net
website: www.N56ML.com
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Kraut [mailto:brian.kraut@engalt.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 10:31 AM
Subject: RE: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce
Alternatives)
I believe that the study you are referring to was in one of the wood working
magazines. I believe it was Mark Langford that posted a copy of the article
or a link to it. I am up to my neck right now and can't look for it, but it
might be found on www.krnet.org.
Oscar, do you still have that email somewhere handy?
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Owen
Davies
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce
Alternatives)
Dick Navratil wrote:
> Resorsinol is the only glue approved for certified aircraft. T-88 has
> been widely used for a long time. Gorilla glue has been discussed on
> the list a few times although I'm not aware of anyone who has actually
> used it.
In New Hampshire, we had a neighbor who used it in a HiMax. His choice
did not make me especially comfortable, but he had not fallen out of the
sky when we heard last. The plane was seven or eight years old when we
left that area.
There was yet another study of glues recently, and I really wish I could
remember where it appeared. It turned out that the polyurethane
glue--don't recall which one they tested--worked fine, but not when used
according to directions. They had to put it on both sides of the joint,
not just one, to get airworthy bonds. What most interested me, though,
was the glue that gave the best joints of all--not resorcinol or T-88,
but ordinary Titebond III. I'd love to know more about its durability
over time, in wings in desert heat, and so on. Given how many airplanes
flew for decades with casein glue and how often I intend to boil my
Piet, I suspect it would be just fine.
There is another gluing technique I'd love to see formally tested, in
the interest of construction speed, if not minimal cost. Several years
ago, one model airplane builder wrote of gluing models by coating both
sides of the bond with the thinnest grade of cyanoacrylate glue, which
really soaks into the wood, and putting thick cyanoacrylate between. His
experience was that the bonds hold for years, in all sorts of horrible
conditions. He had never seen one break; it's always the wood that goes
in a crash, even in areas that have been thoroughly soaked in fuel.
This leads me to wonder what kind of joint you would get by pre-treating
the wood with that very thin epoxy used to build up rotting boat and
construction members before gluing with T-88. In the interests of
marketing, we could make up a combination package with both glues and
call it "T-99." However, I strongly suspect that this is ridiculous
overkill.
Back to polyurethane glues. I would love to get some good test info on
the new Elmer's Nano that the Big Orange Box is carrying. Pending that,
here is the best information I have:
Vick and Okkonen, "Strength and Durability of One-Part Polyurethane
Adhesive Bonds to Wood," Forest Products Journal, 48(11/12), 1998, pp
71-6. "Abstract. One-part polyurethane wood adhesives comprise a new
class of general purpose consumer products. Manufacturers claims of
waterproof bonds brought many inquiries to the Forest Products
Laboratory (FPL) from users constructing aircraft, boats, lawn
furniture, and other laminated materials for outdoor use. Although FPL
has technical information on several types of polyurethane and
isocyanate-based adhesives for wood, no information was available on
this new class of adhesives. Four commercial polyurethane adhesives,
along with a resorcinol-formaldehyde adhesive to represent a standard of
performance, were subjected to a series of industry-accepted tests that
assess varying levels of bond strength and durability. In bonds to
yellow birch and Douglas-fir, the polyurethanes did not differ
significantly from each other in their performance; as a group, though,
their dry shear strengths showed that they were significantly stronger
than the resorcinol. Dry wood failures by the polyurethanes were high
and did not differ significantly from the resorcinol. After three
water-saturating procedures, wet shear strengths of polyurethanes and
the resorcinol were statistically comparable. Wet wood failures,
however, were very low among polyurethanes, which is a sharp contrast to
the high wood failure by the resorcinol. A moderately severe
delamination test indicated varying levels of water resistance among the
polyurethanes, but the resorcinol was completely resistant to
delamination. A very severe cyclic delamination test caused severe
delamination of polyurethane bonds. However, a recently discovered
hydroxymethylated resorcinol (HMR) coupling agent dramatically increased
delamination resistance of polyurethane adhesives. In a test of
resistance to deformation under static loads, polyurethane bonds
withstood extreme exposures of temperature and relative humidity for 60
days without deformation."
Owen
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Brian Kraut wrote:
> I guess it was not as hard to find as I thought. I just searched glue in my
> inbox and the email was still there. See the following.
Many thanks. That's not the article I was thinking of, though it is
informative.
My interest in other glues grows from the thought of being able to go
into the local hardware/big-box store and pick up usable glue if the
special-order stuff is running out or somehow becomes unusable. This is,
in my view, not merely convenient; it's how life ought to be. I used to
love it that one could go into the nearest hardware store, pick up some
Weldwood resorcinol, and get to work. Now that no one carries
resorcinol, I would love to find some equivalent. I have seen T-88 in
stores only on rare occasions, and not yet where we now live.
Owen
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives |
Just happened to catch this....
You say that "I think a very strong spar would be two separate units of
birch plywood one with 90 degree grain, one normal, then cap stripped with Douglas
fir with an abundance of nails, this would be strongest and yet light
enough of any spar."
Remember that you derive no strength whatsoever from an abundance of nails. The
nails only provide clamping pressure. If nailing is the only possible way to
get that needed pressure, so be it. Otherwise be creative with clamping, and there's
no need for an abundance of nails.
Ryan
I worry about using epoxy on laminated wing spares, marine epoxy
can creep at higher temperatures, of course the wing will be painted a
light color to reflect the sun's rays. or the laminations could be tightly
clamped and some other glue used such as Gorilla glue, not near
as messy either. anyone have experience with epoxy that has a
higher temperature rating than marine epoxy such as Raka?
The birch plywood would be scarfed spliced
at an angle having a splice two inches long in 1/8 ply this would be the
strongest in my opinion, note I haven't built a plane just planing on it.
Oh yes there would be insert pieces of wood at scarf points.
--------
Russell
---------------------------------
Message 11
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| Subject: | Pietenpol auction |
I have been talking to my EAA chapter about them buying my Sky Scout
project, finishing it, and auctioning it. It is very well built and has a
Chrysler 2.2 and a GN-1 wing. It will have an airworthiness certificate and
the 40 hours flown off before it goes.
I am trying to get an idea on how hard it would be to raffle this plane off
and would like to know how many people would probably buy a ticket. Could
you email me at brian@engalt.com if you would likely buy a ticket for it and
how many you would probably buy. Obvioulsy, your answer now does not commit
you to anything and I won't harass you later. I am just trying to get an
idea if this is feasible or not.
We would probably do 250 tickets at $50 each, or maybe 500 at $25 each and
would run it for probably six months or until all the tickets sold,
whichever came first. If we did not sell enough tickets to cover the cost
of the plane we would refund the tickets and just sell the plane. If you
would buy a $25 ticket, but not buy one at $50 let me know that also.
Thanks.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
I understand the desire to want to be able to get what you need when you want it.
Been there, done that, living it. :P
However, choosing to use a glue other than what are the generally accepted norms
just because it's readily available at the local store, to me, is not the right
reason. Those who have completed a Piet would be the authority on this, but
I would imagine that of all the things that would slow you down and prevent
you from completing your aircraft sooner rather than later, availability of the
proper glue is pretty low on the list. If you are building so quickly that waiting
for UPS to bring your next shipment of glue is going to really put you
in a bind....fantastic! That's a good dilemma to have.
We will build until we use up the first supply we ordered, and before we start
to run out we'll order more. If we underestimate our usage or for some reason
have to wait for the glue before we can proceed, that's ok. I can find something
else to make progress on until it shows up.
Ryan
Brian Kraut wrote:
> I guess it was not as hard to find as I thought. I just searched glue in my
> inbox and the email was still there. See the following.
Many thanks. That's not the article I was thinking of, though it is
informative.
My interest in other glues grows from the thought of being able to go
into the local hardware/big-box store and pick up usable glue if the
special-order stuff is running out or somehow becomes unusable. This is,
in my view, not merely convenient; it's how life ought to be. I used to
love it that one could go into the nearest hardware store, pick up some
Weldwood resorcinol, and get to work. Now that no one carries
resorcinol, I would love to find some equivalent. I have seen T-88 in
stores only on rare occasions, and not yet where we now live.
Owen
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol auction |
Brian,
that
I would go for a 50 on that depending.
John
In a message dated 2/26/2008 1:44:23 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brian.kraut@engalt.com writes:
I have been talking to my EAA chapter about them buying my Sky Scout
project, finishing it, and auctioning it. It is very well built and has a Chrysler
2.2 and a GN-1 wing. It will have an airworthiness certificate and the 40
hours flown off before it goes.
I am trying to get an idea on how hard it would be to raffle this plane off
and would like to know how many people would probably buy a ticket. Could
you email me at _brian@engalt.com_ (mailto:brian@engalt.com) if you would
likely buy a ticket for it and how many you would probably buy. Obvioulsy, your
answer now does not commit you to anything and I won't harass you later. I
am just trying to get an idea if this is feasible or not.
We would probably do 250 tickets at $50 each, or maybe 500 at $25 each and
would run it for probably six months or until all the tickets sold, whichever
came first. If we did not sell enough tickets to cover the cost of the plane
we would refund the tickets and just sell the plane. If you would buy a
$25 ticket, but not buy one at $50 let me know that also. Thanks.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living.
(http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/
2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)
Message 14
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| Subject: | Fuel tank question |
OK; I put up a little webpage with a few pix of the fuel tank setup on 41CC. It's
at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/fueltank.html
And I was wrong about the tank having 'shoulders' on the sides to rest on the longerons.
What it actually has is a 'shoulder' on the aft side to rest on the
crossmember. Also provides additional fuel capacity. I have found (by experience;
don't ask me how) that of the 16 gallons total fuel capacity in the tank,
only 14 are usable. When that float rod touches the filler cap, I had better
be on the ground or I'm flying a glider ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel tank question |
Oscar,
Again...thanks for coming thru..Your photos gave me some insight as to how this
tank can be installed and secured from moving around!
Ken H.
PS...with all this cold weather and wind...I wish I was back in Houston again!
Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
OK; I put up a little webpage with a few pix of the fuel tank setup on 41CC. It's
at
http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/repairs/fueltank.html
And I was wrong about the tank having 'shoulders' on the sides to rest on the longerons.
What it actually has is a 'shoulder' on the aft side to rest on the
crossmember. Also provides additional fuel capacity. I have found (by experience;
don't ask me how) that of the 16 gallons total fuel capacity in the tank,
only 14 are usable. When that float rod touches the filler cap, I had better be
on the ground or I'm flying a glider ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward, for there you have been, there you long to return,
to break the surly bonds of earth and touch the face of God!"
-da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee
---------------------------------
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Ryan Mueller wrote:
> I understand the desire to want to be able to get what you need when
> you want it. Been there, done that, living it. :P
>
> However, choosing to use a glue other than what are the generally
> accepted norms just because it's readily available at the local store,
> to me, is not the right reason.
Sounds like I didn't put the emphasis quite where it belonged.
My desire to use a locally available glue does not truly stem from
scheduling concerns. That was only a feeble attempt to justify in my own
mind what really amounts to being a low-grade crank.
The truth is that I wish to find a locally available glue that is fully
suitable for aircraft use because that is my idea of how life ought to
be. St. Bernie didn't order from Aircraft Spruce when he wanted to build
an airplane. He searched out materials he could buy locally and used
them. I would prefer to do the same.
Now, I recognize that this is no longer the late 1920s. Before there was
Windows, or DOS, or even CP/M, I was the first kid on my block to own a
computer. I have earned most of my living for the last 20 years
predicting will happen over the next decade or two--on rare occasions
longer--in subjects from technology to terrorism for major corporations,
industry and professional organizations, and the occasional government
agency. I'm darned good at accepting the present and looking forward
rather than back.
Yet my sense of what is right and fittin' calls for a Piet (or most
other non-plastic airplanes) to be built insofar as possible from
locally available materials using technologies a bright farm kid 80
years ago would have mastered in his teens. If that means ignoring "the
generally accepted norms," well, the first guy who used T-88 instead of
resorcinol seems to have gotten away with it. So watch out for falling
chips. But don't worry about falling airplanes. I meant that part about
"fully suitable for aircraft use" every bit as seriously as the rest of
this mini-manifesto.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: landing gear |
Winter is long here as well - thinking of a composite Piet....
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166444#166444
Message 18
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| Subject: | Continental engine drawing file |
I've scanned the dimensioned 3-view drawing of the small Continental engine from Evans' manual to a .jpg and it can be viewed here: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/3view.jpg . If you want to snag it, just right-click on the image and 'save as'.
I once again recommend Evans' book as being well worth the money, and in fact if you purchase Volksplane plans from him, he will throw in the designer's manual for free. You can order here: http://www.evansair.com/handbook.htm
Oscar Zuniga
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Hi,
It's been quite a while since I posted anything to the list, largely
because my project is dormant while I search for a better job.
Anyway, I've used both Gorilla Glue and the Elmer's equivalent in a
number of (non-aircraft) applications over the years & I think it has
good potential for some aircraft applications if you use it
correctly. I did some bond tests several years ago & got wood
failure before glue failure every time if I used the following
procedures:
- Used a freshly-opened bottle of glue (no more than 2 weeks old).
This is very important, even in the bottle, these glues thicken
appreciably with age & I'm sure bonding strength is compromised.
-Spread a 'wetting' layer of glue on both surfaces & let it soak in
for about a minute (but not too long - foaming BAD)
- Used moderate clamping pressure to assure a tight joint, but not
enough pressure to starve the joint.
This procedure results in good joint & as I said, destructive testing
always resulted in wood failure, not the glue. Given all this, I
plan on using Gorilla glue on my Piet wherever I do not have to rely
on it as a structural agent, although I suspect I could. It does
great for laminations, and eliminates all the mixing & curing issues
that go with T-88 or resorcinol. And, unlike the Titebond glues, it
is waterproof when cured (I glued up a sandbox with it 5 years ago &
despite year-round exposure to the elements, the glue had not yet
failed as of last Fall - don't ask me t5o go check now, there's 6
inches of snow on the ground & more coming down).
As with anything else, all the usual disclaimers apply to the above
statements - I'm statisfied with how Gorilla glue works for me - your
mileage may vary.
Kip Gardner
On Feb 26, 2008, at 4:41 PM, Owen Davies wrote:
> <owen5819@comcast.net>
>
> Ryan Mueller wrote:
>> I understand the desire to want to be able to get what you need
>> when you want it. Been there, done that, living it. :P
>>
>> However, choosing to use a glue other than what are the generally
>> accepted norms just because it's readily available at the local
>> store, to me, is not the right reason.
> Sounds like I didn't put the emphasis quite where it belonged.
>
> My desire to use a locally available glue does not truly stem from
> scheduling concerns. That was only a feeble attempt to justify in
> my own mind what really amounts to being a low-grade crank.
>
> The truth is that I wish to find a locally available glue that is
> fully suitable for aircraft use because that is my idea of how life
> ought to be. St. Bernie didn't order from Aircraft Spruce when he
> wanted to build an airplane. He searched out materials he could buy
> locally and used them. I would prefer to do the same.
>
> Now, I recognize that this is no longer the late 1920s. Before
> there was Windows, or DOS, or even CP/M, I was the first kid on my
> block to own a computer. I have earned most of my living for the
> last 20 years predicting will happen over the next decade or two--
> on rare occasions longer--in subjects from technology to terrorism
> for major corporations, industry and professional organizations,
> and the occasional government agency. I'm darned good at accepting
> the present and looking forward rather than back.
>
> Yet my sense of what is right and fittin' calls for a Piet (or most
> other non-plastic airplanes) to be built insofar as possible from
> locally available materials using technologies a bright farm kid 80
> years ago would have mastered in his teens. If that means ignoring
> "the generally accepted norms," well, the first guy who used T-88
> instead of resorcinol seems to have gotten away with it. So watch
> out for falling chips. But don't worry about falling airplanes. I
> meant that part about "fully suitable for aircraft use" every bit
> as seriously as the rest of this mini-manifesto.
>
> Owen
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Kip and Beth Gardner wrote:
> Anyway, I've used both Gorilla Glue and the Elmer's equivalent in a
> number of (non-aircraft) applications over the years & I think it has
> good potential for some aircraft applications if you use it
> correctly. I did some bond tests several years ago & got wood failure
> before glue failure every time if I used the following procedures: [etc.]
Many thanks for that. It's a big help. The question of clamping pressure
seems to be important with the polyurethanes, and I've never been clear
what is needed.
> And, unlike the Titebond glues, it is waterproof when cured ...
Actually, that's what interests me about Titebond III. It is supposed to
be waterproof, and in at least one test series it was reported to give
the strongest bonds on wet wood--stronger than T-88 or resorcinol. What
I don't know is how well it stands up over time under the conditions it
would see in an airplane.
Now if only I could remember where that test appeared.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: Piet building |
Carson, Has anyone called in your request? If not, let me know and I'll
make the call.
Gene in Tennessee
----- Original Message -----
From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 5:36 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet building
>
> Hi
> Could one of you kind gentleman do me a favor and call and get me a copy
> sent out with a membership pack as well.It would be greatly appreciated.
> Address is
> Carson Vella
> 38 Bell Rd
> Glasshouse mountains
> Queensland 4518
> Australia
>
> Thanks in advance
> Carson
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=165485#165485
>
>
> --
> 4:09 PM
>
>
Message 22
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Hi Jim,
Nice to hear from you. I buzzed your house but didn't see anybody. I went over
to Salem and dropped in for some hot chocolate. It was cold!
Guys, Jim is a really great guy with a fantastic family who lives only about 2
miles from my house and only a few hundred yards off of the end of our airstrip!
I think I have successfully corrupted his son and him. So much so that they
have actually started a Piet project! Now all I have left to do is convince
them to make the trip to Brodhead. That oughtta finish 'em off!
John, no real difference with the skis. Flies pretty much the same, just a little
more fun!
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166484#166484
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
A word of caution on the Titebond III is make sure it has never been frozen
or it will fail.
Smell the botle if it smells burned toss it and buy a new one.
It is temperature sensitive and will not cure in cold 45deg F environment.
Michael in cold snowy Maine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819@comcast.net>
>
> > And, unlike the Titebond glues, it is waterproof when cured ...
> Actually, that's what interests me about Titebond III. It is supposed to
> be waterproof, and in at least one test series it was reported to give
> the strongest bonds on wet wood--
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Piet building |
Hi Gene
No I don't think anyone has. It would be great if you could
Thank you very much
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=166489#166489
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
In New Zeland Wayne Willson's RW Storch is glued together with Polyurethane
glue.
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/Miscellaneous/notes1.jpg
more photos:
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/wilsonnz/
here it is flying:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSiTNQgj_N8&feature=related
this is the flavor he used:
http://www.excelglue.com/one.htm
Michael in Maine
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Michael Silvius wrote:
> A word of caution on the Titebond III is make sure it has never been frozen
> or it will fail.
> Smell the botle if it smells burned toss it and buy a new one.
I have some testing to do before using it for anything, but this is
worth knowing! Many thanks.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Hi Owen,
Check your local Woodcraft store; they carry T88 although they do
price it a little higher. They also have Titebond III which I did use
for the plywood over the instrument panel, storage area behind pilot
and over the front cockpit instrument panel.
Its good glue.
Jim
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol auction |
I would probably go for one of two at 25 but not for 50. Good luck, Jim
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol auction |
I feel the same as Jim. More people are much more casual with $25 than
$50. I would probably go for 2 for $50 for my shot at winning a dream.
Everyone has their comfort zone and folks will probably spend the amount
they are comfortable with regardless of the number of tickets. Just lowers
the barrier to entry and more participate, which I would think would be your
goal.
Just my take on the situation.
On 2/26/08, jimboyer@hughes.net <jimboyer@hughes.net> wrote:
>
> I would probably go for one of two at 25 but not for 50. Good luck, Jim
>
>
> *
>
> *
>
>
--
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Like Jim says, Woodcraft has it. If you buy it from Aircraft Spruce, after
shipping the local cost ends up being about the same. If there is any
difference in price, in my book it's probably reinvested into piece of
mind. It was only $15.00 for the half pint size bottle set and I got 2
boxes a few days ago. I think AS&S got me for $25.00 for the pint bottles
plus probaby more than $5 for shipping. So, Woodcraft ends up being
cheaper. They have other stuff by System 3, but it;s not as strong as
T-88.
My best result with T-88 was gluing both pieces to be joined with a thin
layer of glue. There was about 15 minutes of time between the application
of glue and the actual joining of the pieces which also helps. I also score
the wood to be joined lightly with #60 grit in 2 directions and then vacuum
the dust. After observing several little stress tests, it was always the
wood that failed.
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
jimboyer@hughes.net wrote:
> Check your local Woodcraft store; they carry T88 although they do
> price it a little higher. They also have Titebond III which I did use
> for the plywood over the instrument panel, storage area behind pilot
> and over the front cockpit instrument panel.
I didn't know they had T-88. The nearest Woodcraft is close to 90 miles
away, but I can live with that. When you figure in shipping, it probably
balances out. OTOH, I can get Titebond III, Gorilla Glue, or the new
Elmer's Nano at the nearest Home Depot, which is about four miles from
here. Teeny bottles of Gorilla Glue are even available on the checkout
lines at the local supermarket!
Thanks,
Owen
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
>Teeny bottles of Gorilla Glue are even available on the checkout
>lines at the local supermarket!
Sure, but you're not building a diarama either. ...Plus you can pick up a
tablesaw blade, some router bits and things you didn't even know you wanted
once you get to Woodcraft.
On 2/26/08, Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>
> jimboyer@hughes.net wrote:
> > Check your local Woodcraft store; they carry T88 although they do
> > price it a little higher. They also have Titebond III which I did use
> > for the plywood over the instrument panel, storage area behind pilot
> > and over the front cockpit instrument panel.
> I didn't know they had T-88. The nearest Woodcraft is close to 90 miles
> away, but I can live with that. When you figure in shipping, it probably
> balances out. OTOH, I can get Titebond III, Gorilla Glue, or the new
> Elmer's Nano at the nearest Home Depot, which is about four miles from
> here. Teeny bottles of Gorilla Glue are even available on the checkout
> lines at the local supermarket!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Owen
>
>
--
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Following this materials thread a tad late. But gotta point out a couple
very important things to you folks that have decided the materials
selections normally used by homebuilders can use improvements: 1) epoxy
resins, especially made for homebuilt aircraft have a very long good record,
tried and test for over 40 years, 2) one of the absolutely most important
characteristics needed by a resin for homebuilts is- resistance to
thermoplastic creep. I worked quite a few years in the polyurethane and
epoxy industries, supplied Rutan and just about everyone else in the
composite homebuilt industry with polyurethanes and epoxies, sooooo can tell
you first hand, there ain't no such thing as a good polyurethane resin for
structural parts on an aircraft. Polyurethanes by their very chemical nature
are going to have more "rubbery or thermoplastic" type chemical bonds when
polymerized. One component polyurethanes that are cured by the ambient
moisture in the air or in the substrate ie. the H2O in the wood, are just
not going to be thermoset enough to not creep when under load.. Just the
wing's weight hanging out there 15' is going to make the resin want to creep
under this load, especially on a nice hot day. But this is a hobby for
folks with free will and afterall you get to be the test pilot. Just
remember one thing, as the spars sag with heat or slowly creep out of shape,
you were warned.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 3:31 PM
Subject: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce
Alternatives)
>
> Kip and Beth Gardner wrote:
>> Anyway, I've used both Gorilla Glue and the Elmer's equivalent in a
>> number of (non-aircraft) applications over the years & I think it has
>> good potential for some aircraft applications if you use it correctly. I
>> did some bond tests several years ago & got wood failure before glue
>> failure every time if I used the following procedures: [etc.]
> Many thanks for that. It's a big help. The question of clamping pressure
> seems to be important with the polyurethanes, and I've never been clear
> what is needed.
>
>> And, unlike the Titebond glues, it is waterproof when cured ...
> Actually, that's what interests me about Titebond III. It is supposed to
> be waterproof, and in at least one test series it was reported to give the
> strongest bonds on wet wood--stronger than T-88 or resorcinol. What I
> don't know is how well it stands up over time under the conditions it
> would see in an airplane.
>
> Now if only I could remember where that test appeared.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Gordon Bowen wrote:
> 2) one of the absolutely most important characteristics needed by a
> resin for homebuilts is- resistance to thermoplastic creep. I worked
> quite a few years in the polyurethane and epoxy industries, supplied
> Rutan and just about everyone else in the composite homebuilt industry
> with polyurethanes and epoxies, sooooo can tell you first hand, there
> ain't no such thing as a good polyurethane resin for structural parts
> on an aircraft. Polyurethanes by their very chemical nature are going
> to have more "rubbery or thermoplastic" type chemical bonds when
> polymerized. One component polyurethanes that are cured by the
> ambient moisture in the air or in the substrate ie. the H2O in the
> wood, are just not going to be thermoset enough to not creep when
> under load....
My chemistry courses were reasonably many, but they also were a very
long time ago, and they told me essentially nothing about this kind of
chemistry. However, this makes sense to me. Have you any observations
about waterproof PVA glues such as Titebond III? A similar critique
would pretty much send me back to either T-88 or resorcinol, which I
liked better (though mixing it forcibly reminds me of black lung disease.)
Thanks.
Owen
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Glenn Thomas wrote:
> ...Plus you can pick up a tablesaw blade, some router bits and things
> you didn't even know you wanted once you get to Woodcraft.
Bandsaw. Jointer. Planer. New wife once this one sees the bills....
Owen
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Spruce Alternatives) |
Owen,
I never worked in the PVA industry. I've never studied the chemistry of
this type of curing or polymerization. So can't help you there. Did work
lots of years with amine curative for epoxies and urethanes, ain't dead yet.
You just have to use common sense when working with any chemical, including
household cleaners. As far as epoxies and their curatives, some people over
the years become sensitized to the amine. It's kinda like rubbing your skin
with bleach or ammonia or poison ivy leaves, your skin isn't going to like
it. As far as inhalation, the amines are going to react with the epoxy
pretty quickly starting the polymerization process, so you're not going to
have too much of an inhalation problem. Saf-t-poxy had some styrene monomer
in it, and smelled terrible. The styrene monomer was there to help bond
with the polystyrene blue foam wing cores, but not needed for any other
reason. Most of the systems sold by AirSpruce and Wicks don't have much of
a smell. If you smell ammonia coming from the amine curative, it because
it's adsorbing H2O from the air, shouldn't do this. The resin itself really
doesn't have much of a smell. Bottomline, I would never recommend anything
but a two part epoxy for anything structural on an airplane and I'd use only
a proven system with a long track record. If you have the spray up
equipment, and can stand the smell, a vinyl ester like Dow's Derakane is a
proven quasi-epoxy system ie. Lancair. But Derakane is really epoxy's first
chemical cousin.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 8:33 PM
Subject: Re: Polyurethane glues (Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce
Alternatives)
>
> Gordon Bowen wrote:
>> 2) one of the absolutely most important characteristics needed by a resin
>> for homebuilts is- resistance to thermoplastic creep. I worked quite a
>> few years in the polyurethane and epoxy industries, supplied Rutan and
>> just about everyone else in the composite homebuilt industry with
>> polyurethanes and epoxies, sooooo can tell you first hand, there ain't no
>> such thing as a good polyurethane resin for structural parts on an
>> aircraft. Polyurethanes by their very chemical nature are going to have
>> more "rubbery or thermoplastic" type chemical bonds when polymerized.
>> One component polyurethanes that are cured by the ambient moisture in the
>> air or in the substrate ie. the H2O in the wood, are just not going to be
>> thermoset enough to not creep when under load....
> My chemistry courses were reasonably many, but they also were a very long
> time ago, and they told me essentially nothing about this kind of
> chemistry. However, this makes sense to me. Have you any observations
> about waterproof PVA glues such as Titebond III? A similar critique would
> pretty much send me back to either T-88 or resorcinol, which I liked
> better (though mixing it forcibly reminds me of black lung disease.)
>
> Thanks.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
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