Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Mon 03/03/08


Total Messages Posted: 43



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:26 AM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Clif Dawson)
     2. 01:01 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (allthumbs)
     3. 04:24 AM - visitors welcome and Brodhead (Douwe Blumberg)
     4. 04:46 AM - Re: Power setting question. ()
     5. 04:48 AM - Re: Power setting question. ()
     6. 05:04 AM - Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (gcardinal)
     7. 05:15 AM - Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (HelsperSew@aol.com)
     8. 05:59 AM - Aileron Question (Jack T. Textor)
     9. 07:18 AM - Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (Rick Holland)
    10. 07:24 AM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies)
    11. 09:42 AM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies)
    12. 10:08 AM - Re: fuel tank thickness (Bill Church)
    13. 10:26 AM - Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (montanacos)
    14. 10:36 AM - Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (bhassel)
    15. 11:17 AM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (bhassel)
    16. 11:23 AM - Re: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (Ryan Mueller)
    17. 11:28 AM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives ()
    18. 11:38 AM - Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead (bhassel)
    19. 11:38 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Owen Davies)
    20. 12:20 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Phillips, Jack)
    21. 12:38 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Ryan Mueller)
    22. 01:48 PM - straight axle and wheels for sale (Douwe Blumberg)
    23. 01:54 PM - Re: Aileron Question (walt evans)
    24. 02:14 PM - Re: Aileron Question (Jack T. Textor)
    25. 02:22 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Bill Church)
    26. 02:23 PM - Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Jim Markle)
    27. 02:23 PM - Re: straight axle and wheels for sale (Robert Gow)
    28. 02:52 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir (Catdesigns)
    29. 03:20 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Steve Eldredge)
    30. 03:24 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (Catdesigns)
    31. 03:37 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets ()
    32. 03:37 PM - Re: Aileron Question (walt evans)
    33. 06:00 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (bhassel)
    34. 06:09 PM - Brodhead questions (Ben Charvet)
    35. 06:18 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Dick Navratil)
    36. 06:50 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (allthumbs)
    37. 06:54 PM - Re: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets (Skip Gadd)
    38. 07:15 PM - Re: Brodhead questions (=?utf-8?B?Sm9obiBSZWNpbmU=?=)
    39. 07:27 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Owen Davies)
    40. 08:25 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Gary Boothe)
    41. 08:52 PM - Re: Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir (Gary Boothe)
    42. 08:57 PM - Re: Re: Spruce Alternatives (Ryan Mueller)
    43. 11:23 PM - Re: Spruce Alternatives (allthumbs)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:26:58 AM PST US
    From: Clif Dawson <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    Hey Russel, there's no reference to what the exact statement is that you are disagreeing with. You are right in your assessment of a box spar with 45 grain orientation in the ply web. In this you have created a continuous triangulated truss. I made up an experimental board with three fish scales to see how this triangulation works. One scale parallel to the long direction of a "beam" . One at 45 and one to pull both of those, again pulling parallel to the beam. The parallel load drops quite a bit. I can't remember the percentages, it was a couple of years ago now. Here in Canada I would have to have the box inspected as a stand alone assembly with one side open. Once passed the box could be closed up. The inspection costs money so that would eat up a lot of the gains in material cost over a solid spar and in my situation cost would be my only reason for doing the extra work. Now an I beam or the English style is not a closed assembly so it wouldn't require the extra inspection. With laminations are we all thinking the same thing. To me this means that there are a number of pieces of solid wood glued together to make a larger board. Each piece has the grain running parallel to the long length of each strip. The end grain will be at some angle between 90 and 180 depending on the choice of the builder. Whatever that choice is decided on as being right or reasonably acceptable. That choice for me would depend on how many laminations were used. If it was two or three or six in a 1" X 4 3/4" spar I would want the grain parallel or reasonably so, to the 1" side. If the laminations were 1/4" X 1" the individual orientation is much less significant as each lamination of this small size becomes a "grain" in it's own right. As such they make the overall board quarter grain which limits the possibility of warping. In any case the strength will be equal to a solid board of the same material with the same "Perfect Board" condition as stated by Russell. Clif > > I have to disagree, what makes the box beam better is using plywood > that has grain orientation running 45 degrees with the parallel grain. > This puts wood fibers in tension in shear which makes a stronger beam. > Can be built lighter and stronger. Lamination of wood have the same > strength as a perfect piece of wood that has no flaws. Or it could depend > on how the laminate is done. > > -------- > Russell


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:01:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "allthumbs" <rray032003@gmail.com>
    Now a question, regular Finnish birch, phenol resin glue, 1/8 (3 mm) cut in strips diagonally across the plywood board at spars width. this would make all grain run at 45 degree, thats glued to 1' by 1 1/4' fir cap stripe, then another regular 90 degree piece on the other side, the splices would be scarfed to 1' and glued. anyone see anything wrong with this? There would be some waste material however this could be used else where as gussets. Two sides of the box spar one regular grain and one that has all grain with a 45 degree orientation. There would be webbing at spar locations and double width at cross brace points. -------- Russell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167364#167364


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:24:38 AM PST US
    From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    Since we obviously have a social crowd who likes to visit, I extend a welcome to any visitors who ever get to the Cincinatti, Louisville or Lexington area. My piet is a Ford, straight gear, 90% done, engine running on stand. I am just south of Cincinatti off the 75/71 split, 1.25 hours from Louisville or Lexington. I would second the plug for Brodhead. Since we have so many new people who havn't been, let me think of a good way to put this... YOU MUST COME TO BRODHEAD!!! It is truly a wonderful place, filled with wonderful people, and the wonderful airplanes we love. You can see ten different ways builders have done things, talk to them, spend all day watching them fly, catch a ride or two and take pictures galore. It is also a great way to cement the comradarie which has always been rather unique to the Piet crowd, and it'll give you that boost to get you through another year of building. It's kind of like the Piet builders yearly shot in the arm to keep running towards the finish line!! Douwe


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:46:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Power setting question.
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    So your saying that with full power at take off we are running the risk of an engine shut down? -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Baker Sent: February 28, 2008 6:02 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Power setting question. <dick@aerovisiontech.com> Full power setting enriches the mixture to prevent detonation. Dick Baker www.aerovisiontech.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 5:51 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Power setting question. Don't remember any instructor I've flown with not asking for full power on takeoff. Still remember learning in the '60's, with my instructor Dick Plahn (WWII, P51,P38,P39,P40, B25) Calling out from the right seat of a 172 "full throttle, feet off the brakes" More power just means you can yank that nose up really high. walt evans NX140DL 4:34 PM 4:34 PM


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:48:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Power setting question.
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    So your saying rev higher during cruise and I'll get better milage? ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: February 28, 2008 4:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Power setting question. Harvey, If you put 6 more revolutions on that rubber band it will improve gas milage three fold! The Franklin uses a 3/4" fuel line doesn't it? I know now why you were buying BP fuel stock.... Ken harvey.rule@bell.ca wrote: My Piet cruises at 85- 90(2200 rpm);usually climbs out at 60 (2500 rpm)and top speed is about 95-97(2500 rpm on the flat).Uses 85 hp Franklin.Uses a lot of gas. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: February 28, 2008 8:28 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Power setting question. Tim, don't worry about the extra power. Too much power is not a problem, however too much airspeed (anything over 90mph or so) is a bad thing in a Piet. I saw 2 piets at Brodhead last year with 0-200's and no worries. Ours is a 100 HP corvair, and it climbs out nice at full power, and gets a good 75mph cruise. Wide open gets about 85-90mph. 85 is about as fast as is comfortable in our piet. Use the engine and don't worry, the power will make it a "Bush Piet - STOL". My 2 cents Shad NX92GB http://www.matronics.com/contribution -da Vinci/John Gillespie Magee


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:04:38 AM PST US
    From: "gcardinal" <gcardinal@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    And don't forget to wear a nametag at Brodhead........ Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 6:21 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: visitors welcome and Brodhead Since we obviously have a social crowd who likes to visit, I extend a welcome to any visitors who ever get to the Cincinatti, Louisville or Lexington area. My piet is a Ford, straight gear, 90% done, engine running on stand. I am just south of Cincinatti off the 75/71 split, 1.25 hours from Louisville or Lexington. I would second the plug for Brodhead. Since we have so many new people who havn't been, let me think of a good way to put this... YOU MUST COME TO BRODHEAD!!! It is truly a wonderful place, filled with wonderful people, and the wonderful airplanes we love. You can see ten different ways builders have done things, talk to them, spend all day watching them fly, catch a ride or two and take pictures galore. It is also a great way to cement the comradarie which has always been rather unique to the Piet crowd, and it'll give you that boost to get you through another year of building. It's kind of like the Piet builders yearly shot in the arm to keep running towards the finish line!! Douwe


    Message 7


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    Time: 05:15:47 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    About Brodhead: I will be there with my Aeronca Sedan available to give a mini flying lesson to anyone that hasn't flown before and wants to, or anyone that just wants to go up and see the field from the air (free of course). This is all dependent on the WX of course. Last year I was able to do this and I'm sure it was much appreciated. I myself learned about a thousand new things. You need to come back every year during the building process, because at every new stage you will need to solve a bunch of new problems. I am very fortunate to only live about 40 mi. away as the crow flies. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Ideas to please picky eaters. Watch video on AOL Living. (http://living.aol.com/video/how-to-please-your-picky-eater/rachel-campos-duffy/ 2050827?NCID=aolcmp00300000002598)


    Message 8


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    Time: 05:59:05 AM PST US
    Subject: Aileron Question
    From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
    Good morning, I have my left wing pretty much completed, ribs glued, mid compression struts glued, tip bolted (not glued), strut braces formed, leading and trailing edges on. The wing is good and square. Do I need to trammel and put the drag and anti-drag wire in before I start on the aileron? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com <http://www.textors.com/>


    Message 9


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    Time: 07:18:50 AM PST US
    From: "Rick Holland" <at7000ft@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    And as someone mentioned, you always getting multiple different answers to build questions and you have to figure out what is BS and what isn't. At Broadhead you can talk to people who have built and have been flying Piets for decades (and in some cases build multiple Piets). It will give you real piece of mind to know that the way you are building yours has been flight proven for hundreds of hours. Rick On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 5:21 AM, Douwe Blumberg <douweblumberg@earthlink.net> wrote: > Since we obviously have a social crowd who likes to visit, I extend a > welcome to any visitors who ever get to the Cincinatti, Louisville or > Lexington area. My piet is a Ford, straight gear, 90% done, engine running > on stand. I am just south of Cincinatti off the 75/71 split, 1.25 hours > from Louisville or Lexington. > > I would second the plug for Brodhead. Since we have so many new people > who havn't been, let me think of a good way to put this... > YOU MUST COME TO BRODHEAD!!! > > It is truly a wonderful place, filled with wonderful people, and the > wonderful airplanes we love. You can see ten different ways builders have > done things, talk to them, spend all day watching them fly, catch a ride or > two and take pictures galore. It is also a great way to cement the > comradarie which has always been rather unique to the Piet crowd, and it'll > give you that boost to get you through another year of building. It's kind > of like the Piet builders yearly shot in the arm to keep running towards the > finish line!! > > Douwe > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland ObjectAge Ltd. Castle Rock, Colorado


    Message 10


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    Time: 07:24:32 AM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    allthumbs wrote: > Now a question, regular Finnish birch, phenol resin glue, 1/8 (3 mm) > cut in strips diagonally... Why does everyone have this pathological need to "improve" something beyond all possible reason? Okay, the simple spruce plank has become untenably expensive. According to Best's calculations--which I am not prepared to dispute or defend but am willing to accept at face value until someone brings them into serious question--a simple I-beam spar with a 90-degree sheer web should be not only cheap, light, and easy, but even stronger than something that has been plenty strong enough for nearly 70 years. It sounds good enough to me. And that's the only criterion that means anything: good enough. Want it strong, not quite so light, not quite so easy, and not quite so cheap, but thoroughly tested and certified by a group that is authorized to do such things? Use the PFA semi-box version. I am actually thinking about doing so myself. Want it not quite so light as the I-beam, with lots of scarfing, inefficient use of materials (by the criterion above), etc.? 45-degree ply has it all. But at least it will probably be strong enough for advanced aerobatics. In your Piet. Actually, I can see one really interesting use for 45-degree sheer webs. Let's all build cantilever Piets. Get rid of those darned struts! Probably add 1, maybe even 2 knots to our cruise. St. Bernie would have loved...er, well, maybe he wouldn't. Owen


    Message 11


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    Time: 09:42:00 AM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    Owen Davies wrote: > allthumbs wrote: Graceless as it is to respond to one's own message, it seems necessary to point out: allthumbs, I did not mean to pick on you individually. I'm sorry if it seemed that way. We all have this odd compulsion to overcomplicate things. I have done it as much as anyone. But let's all take a moment to remember that we aren't building a Pitts here, or even a Jodel. Low and slow, cheap and easy. Add cost and complexity only if our vision truly requires it, not because we just can't leave well enough alone. Could it be time for a reality check? Everyone who is not building exactly to plans, let's peer into our hearts and see whether our current design choices really fit with our original vision of a Pietenpol, much less St. Bernie's vision. No need to share with the group. But I'm guessing that what you find won't involve weather radar, a G meter, box spars with 45-degree sheer webs, or any other needless complexity. Incidentally, note that glue is a whole lot heavier than wood. It does not take all that many laminations before the weight of the glue makes for an uncommonly heavy spar. Owen


    Message 12


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    Time: 10:08:48 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Subject: fuel tank thickness
    Douwe, I remember a discussion about this from about a year ago, so I looked up a posting I made back then. Here it is: The most likely reason for choosing aluminum over stainless steel is weight. On a volumetric basis, stainless steel weighs almost 3 times as much as aluminum. The typical aluminum tank seems to be made from .040" thick aluminum. This thickness can be TIG welded successfully (by a skilled welder) to produce a leak-proof tank. The thinnest stainless steel that can practically be welded (again, by a skilled TIG welder) is probably 22ga (.031" thick) or 20ga (.037"). Without doing any accurate calculations, it looks like the typical nose tank (like Mike Cuy's sketch) might have about 20 square feet of surface. Aluminum weighs .563 pounds per square foot for .040" thickness, and T304 stainless steel weighs 1.27 pounds per sq.ft. for .031" thickness. The aluminum tank would weigh about 11 pounds, whereas the stainless tank would weigh about 25 1/2 pounds. That's a 14+ pound penalty. (If you choose 20ga st.st. add an additional 5 pounds.) So, to answer your question directly, the thinnest gauge that is weldable by the average skilled welder of stainless steel is probably 20ga. That will probably be the limiting factor. Whether you want an extra 20 pounds in your plane is another question. Bill


    Message 13


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    Time: 10:26:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets
    From: "montanacos" <tj_moody@yahoo.com>
    I have followed this site for years, and have been wanting to start building an airplane with a corvair engine for a long time. I posted several years ago after finishing a house and was hoping to start building soon. Well, plans get pushed back, and I built another house weekends and evenings and still am hoping to start building something fun. Of course, I have a young family and money is an issue. I have not been blessed with a pilots build however. I am about 255 lbs, and with diet and exercise, I could comfortably loose 15 to 20 lbs. So I am never going to be the 140 lbs that makes flying a small airplane with a passenger nice and easy. Building material weight is also an issue. I need to build light, but if I can compromise a little on weight, then maybe I can afford to get in the air on my limited budget. My question is on the finished weights of two similar Piet's, one of spruce, and one of douglas fir. I have a brother who works at a planer here in Montana and they get lots of douglas fir. He said that he could set aside the nice vertical grain fir if I am interested. This would significantly cut down on the cost, and I would be able to start the construction as soon as I purchase the plans. I have the Flying and Glider Manual that covers the Piet, and have thought of drawing the rib on autocad and building the ribs until I purchase the complete set of drawings including the long fuse for the corvair engine. I don't think there would be any copy right issues with that approach since the information I have comes from the Flying and gliders manual. Thanks in advance and I hope to start soon. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167422#167422


    Message 14


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    Time: 10:36:43 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    From: "bhassel" <bob@cozyworld.net>
    Not that I'll have much of a chance to make it all the way up to Brodhead, but when is it this year? Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167426#167426


    Message 15


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    Time: 11:17:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "bhassel" <bob@cozyworld.net>
    I've worked some with metal and some with composites/fiberglass/MSG but this wood stuff is new to me. I'd like to find a workable solution because of the expense of the spruce and getting it all the way down here in the southwest. Of course living in the desert southwest means aircraft wood is not a naturally occurring entity. I'm not sure I can keep all of my brain cells aligned in this discussion but please don't let it stop. If I could go down to my local Lowe's and find reasonably priced/acceptable wood (still learning that one as well) I'd love it! Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167432#167432


    Message 16


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    Time: 11:23:04 AM PST US
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    Bob, It's the weekend preceding the start of Oshkosh. July 25-27. You can get this info (and all sorts of pics and news) from the EAA 431 website: http://www.eaa431.org/ Brodhead is an absolutely perfect airport. 3 grass runways (with the main runway being the only one open during most fly-ins), just south of a small town in Wisconsin. Sitting in a lawn chair just off the active and watching the airplanes on a beautiful summer day is just about as good as it gets. And there are so many interesting people and airplanes based there....it's almost criminal. Ryan Not that I'll have much of a chance to make it all the way up to Brodhead, but when is it this year? Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167426#167426 ---------------------------------


    Message 17


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    Time: 11:28:14 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: <harvey.rule@bell.ca>
    Wood is just a composite material with a grain in it.Some good ones ,some bad ones.All are good for something even if its just for a fire. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: March 3, 2008 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Alternatives I've worked some with metal and some with composites/fiberglass/MSG but this wood stuff is new to me. I'd like to find a workable solution because of the expense of the spruce and getting it all the way down here in the southwest. Of course living in the desert southwest means aircraft wood is not a naturally occurring entity. I'm not sure I can keep all of my brain cells aligned in this discussion but please don't let it stop. If I could go down to my local Lowe's and find reasonably priced/acceptable wood (still learning that one as well) I'd love it! Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167432#167432


    Message 18


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    Time: 11:38:44 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: visitors welcome and Brodhead
    From: "bhassel" <bob@cozyworld.net>
    thanks! I noticed the new site for the BPA on there as well - two new favorites! Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167439#167439


    Message 19


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    Time: 11:38:46 AM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas
    Fir Piets montanacos wrote: > My question is on the finished weights of two similar Piet's, one of spruce, and one of douglas fir. Some years ago, a friend built a Piet out of Douglas fir. I can't remember how much it weighed, though I believe it was a bit heavier than some. He did say that it wound up tail heavy and that if he were to build another he would use fir only for the most heavily stressed pieces and pine for pretty much anything else. He specifically said he'd use fir only for the spars in the tail and pine for the rest of the empennage. One online source (http://www.geocities.com/steamgen/woodweights.pdf) says that Sitka spruce is about 28 lb per cubic foot, while Doug fir ranges from 30 lb to 34 lb per cubic foot, depending on where it grew. It's been ages since I last saw the FPL data, but this sounds right. This is not precisely on point, but a builder named Graham Hansen wrote in the archives (see the quote on 2003-01-05; I couldn't find the original message) that he had built both a wood Piet and one with a steel-tube frame, and the steel turned out to be 35 - 40 lb lighter. It's probably cheaper, too, if you use modern ERW tube instead of 4130 or whatever Mr. Pietenpol found locally. (This should be an acceptable substitution. According to the Flying and Glider Manual, a competent engineer found the tube design to be way overbuilt.) I will be going this route, both to save weight and money and because I really enjoy welding and will need the practice for my next project, a Wittman Buttercup. There will be a part of me that says it isn't really a Pietenpol, even though the conversion was done by the original designer, but I can live with that. I believe that Mr. Pietenpol would understand. Owen


    Message 20


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    Time: 12:20:48 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
    One thing to bear in mind when trying to find all these alternatives to spruce is that the total cost of the wood, whether aircraft grade Sitka Spruce or Home Depot pine (Fisherman Ray, are you still out there?), is a small fraction of the total cost of the project. My Pietenpol is built exclusively of aircraft grade spruce, and aircraft grade mahogany and birch plywood from both Aircraft Spruce & Specialty and Wicks (neither of which are exactly cheap). The total cost of the wood in my airplane was around $1,000. The total cost of the airplane was about $14,000. And that was spaced out over 6 years of building (I frequently tell people my airplane cost me the same amount a 2-pack a day smoker would have spent on cigarettes in the same time frame). Let's assume that if you use alternative woods you can build the whole airplane with $200 worth of wood. If I had done that, my plane would have cost me $13,200 instead of $14,000, a whopping 5.71% change. To each his own, but for me, I prefer knowing that I have the best, safest and lightest material holding my butt up in the air. In the total cost of the airplane, the cost of the wood is almost insignificant - even if you use the expensive aircraft grade spruce. When you add that fact to the idea that you can order spars, capstrips and longerons already planed to the exact size you need it becomes even more attractive. The chance of finding lumberyard wood that is already planed to the exact thickness you need is pretty remote. So if you use alternates, that means borrowing or buying a planer and spending many hours just producing the material rather than actually building. Besides, spruce works so nicely. It doesn't smell like turpentine like Douglas fir does, and it doesn't splinter easily. There's a reason airplanes have been built of spruce since the beginning of aviation. Lastly, even though you think you'll never sell your Pietenpol, if you do have to sell it, the fact that you built it from aircraft grade materials can yield you a higher price. Remember - "Simplicate and add Lightness" A light airplane flies better. Okay - I'm off my soapbox (which was built of spruce as well) Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Alternatives I've worked some with metal and some with composites/fiberglass/MSG but this wood stuff is new to me. I'd like to find a workable solution because of the expense of the spruce and getting it all the way down here in the southwest. Of course living in the desert southwest means aircraft wood is not a naturally occurring entity. I'm not sure I can keep all of my brain cells aligned in this discussion but please don't let it stop. If I could go down to my local Lowe's and find reasonably priced/acceptable wood (still learning that one as well) I'd love it! Bob Santa Fe, NM _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese


    Message 21


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    Time: 12:38:48 PM PST US
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas
    Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs.... montanacos wrote: > My question is on the finished weights of two similar Piet's, one of spruce, and one of douglas fir. Some years ago, a friend built a Piet out of Douglas fir. I can't remember how much it weighed, though I believe it was a bit heavier than some. He did say that it wound up tail heavy and that if he were to build another he would use fir only for the most heavily stressed pieces and pine for pretty much anything else. He specifically said he'd use fir only for the spars in the tail and pine for the rest of the empennage. One online source (http://www.geocities.com/steamgen/woodweights.pdf) says that Sitka spruce is about 28 lb per cubic foot, while Doug fir ranges from 30 lb to 34 lb per cubic foot, depending on where it grew. It's been ages since I last saw the FPL data, but this sounds right. This is not precisely on point, but a builder named Graham Hansen wrote in the archives (see the quote on 2003-01-05; I couldn't find the original message) that he had built both a wood Piet and one with a steel-tube frame, and the steel turned out to be 35 - 40 lb lighter. It's probably cheaper, too, if you use modern ERW tube instead of 4130 or whatever Mr. Pietenpol found locally. (This should be an acceptable substitution. According to the Flying and Glider Manual, a competent engineer found the tube design to be way overbuilt.) I will be going this route, both to save weight and money and because I really enjoy welding and will need the practice for my next project, a Wittman Buttercup. There will be a part of me that says it isn't really a Pietenpol, even though the conversion was done by the original designer, but I can live with that. I believe that Mr. Pietenpol would understand. Owen ---------------------------------


    Message 22


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    Time: 01:48:15 PM PST US
    From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
    Subject: straight axle and wheels for sale
    Hi guys, I mentioned this before and had some interest, but at the time I wanted more for them (what I have in them) than what anyone wanted to pay. I have to build a new set of wheels with brakes, so if anyone wants a complete, ready to go, brakeless straight axle with two beautiful wire wheels, email me and I'll send photos. They are very unique and classic. They are 28" smooth high pressure clincher tire, which is a WW1 era tire, which is what the first Piets used. Tubes and tires are easily available. The wheels use a steel rim, stainless steel spokes laced up by Buchannans. Hub is of classic design using bronze bushings and a grease fitting for lube. The axle is the standard 4130 tube, 6' long, 1.5" od Can send pics. Douwe


    Message 23


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    Time: 01:54:28 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <waltdak@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Aileron Question
    Jack, Yes, If I remember correctly, the wing gets trammeled with all the wires tensioned, the ailerons are then built with in the wing, with all the aileron spars and structure bracing. (Stands to reason that the ribs and spars are perfect before gluing all the things in the ailerons to make them final.) THEN,,,the ailerons are cut from the wing proper with a small saw, the edges finished, and then the hinges layed out and fastened. When the hinges are attached, the aileron has to be in the same position, as if it were never cut out. walt evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 8:54 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Question Good morning, I have my left wing pretty much completed, ribs glued, mid compression struts glued, tip bolted (not glued), strut braces formed, leading and trailing edges on. The wing is good and square. Do I need to trammel and put the drag and anti-drag wire in before I start on the aileron? Thanks, Jack www.textors.com


    Message 24


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    Time: 02:14:39 PM PST US
    Subject: Aileron Question
    From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
    Walt, Thanks for the reply. It stands to reason I should put the leading edge ply on also after bracing, correct? On another note, would you recommend 2" (piano) hinges for the ailerons? Thanks! Jack www.textors.com


    Message 25


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    Time: 02:22:57 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas
    Fir Piets Not so fast there, young fella... The 680 pounds includes a whole lot more than spruce (or fir). That weight includes all the plywood, glue, metal fittings, fabric, paint, cables, fittings, wheels, and among other things, an ENGINE. Using Fir won't add that much to the weight to the finished plane. But this is a small plane, and whatever the weight difference is will be EXTRA weight. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs....


    Message 26


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    Time: 02:23:07 PM PST US
    From: "Jim Markle" <jim_markle@mindspring.com>
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets
    I think that 826 number would only be true if the entire Piet was spruce...spruce engine, spruce fittings, etc. The fact that only a portion of the Piet is actually built from spruce means that only a portion of the wieght would need to be increased by 26%... Still a big number no doubt... JM ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs.... Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> wrote: montanacos wrote: > My question is on the finished weights of two similar Piet's, one of > spruce, and one of douglas fir. Some years ago, a friend built a Piet out of Douglas fir. I can't remember how much it weighed, though I believe it was a bit heavier than some. He did say that it wound up tail heavy and that if he were to build another he would use fir only for the most heavily stressed pieces and pine for pretty much anything else. He specifically said he'd use fir only for the spars in the tail and pine for the rest of the empennage. One online source (http://www.geocities.com/steamgen/woodweights.pdf) says that Sitka spruce is about 28 lb per cubic foot, while Doug fir ranges from 30 lb to 34 lb per cubic foot, depending on where it grew. It's been ages since I last saw the FPL data, but this sounds right. This is not precisely on point, but a builder named Graham Hansen wrote in the archives (see the quote on 2003-01-05; I couldn't find the original message) that he had built both a wood Piet and one with a steel-tube frame, and the steel turned out to be 35 - 40 lb lighter. It's probably cheaper, too, if you use modern ERW tube instead of 4130 or whatever Mr. Pietenpol found locally. (This should be an acceptable substitution. According to the Flying and Glider Manual, a competent engineer found the tube


    Message 27


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    Time: 02:23:39 PM PST US
    From: "Robert Gow" <rgow@avionicsdesign.ca>
    Subject: straight axle and wheels for sale
    I might be interested. What is the size called on the plans? I assume brakes would be hard to add and that's why you are building a new set? Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Douwe Blumberg Sent: March 3, 2008 4:45 PM To: pietenpolgroup Subject: Pietenpol-List: straight axle and wheels for sale Hi guys, I mentioned this before and had some interest, but at the time I wanted more for them (what I have in them) than what anyone wanted to pay. I have to build a new set of wheels with brakes, so if anyone wants a complete, ready to go, brakeless straight axle with two beautiful wire wheels, email me and I'll send photos. They are very unique and classic. They are 28" smooth high pressure clincher tire, which is a WW1 era tire, which is what the first Piets used. Tubes and tires are easily available. The wheels use a steel rim, stainless steel spokes laced up by Buchannans. Hub is of classic design using bronze bushings and a grease fitting for lube. The axle is the standard 4130 tube, 6' long, 1.5" od Can send pics. Douwe


    Message 28


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    Time: 02:52:14 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas
    Fir
    From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns@comcast.net>
    There is probably about 150 pounds of spruce in airframe. This would make the weight gain more like 40 pounds. -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167485#167485


    Message 29


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    Time: 03:20:44 PM PST US
    From: Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu>
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs.
    Douglas Fir Piets Not a stick of spruce in my A-65 powered piet. It is all doug fir. Finish ed, flying weight is 626lbs. I had to add 20lbs of lead on the engine moun t and move the wing back 3 inches. Suggestions to used a lighter wood on the tail is a good one, save the spar is still fir or spruce. Flew fine for 10 years. Steve E. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets Not so fast there, young fella... The 680 pounds includes a whole lot more than spruce (or fir). That weight includes all the plywood, glue, metal fittings, fabric, paint, cables, fitt ings, wheels, and among other things, an ENGINE. Using Fir won't add that much to the weight to the finished plane. But this is a small plane, and whatever the weight difference is will be EXTRA weig ht. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques : Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs.. ..


    Message 30


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    Time: 03:24:49 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns@comcast.net>
    Thanks Jack for saving me the effort of typing up that reply. I whole-heartedly agree with what you are saying. My aircraft grade spruce has cost me about $1,100 over 6 years. I have more then that in wheels (I have 3 sets, 2 that were totally inadequate(I was trying to save money using an alternative) and the real ones on the plane). Its 1/4th the cost of my engine and probably cheaper then the cost of covering materials. Did I forget to say how much the struts are going to cost? Some of you need to take a look at the cost of turn buckles and shackles. You are going to need about 30 turnbuckles and 10 to 15 shackles. Kind of makes the cost of spruce look better. There is a lot more cost involved then just price of spruce. Chris, cutting up Jack's soap box for the wood. -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167493#167493


    Message 31


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    Time: 03:37:05 PM PST US
    From: <kendelmccarley@cox.net>
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs.
    Douglas Fir Piets Yeah, until you let your brother fly it. You want I should walk over and punch him for you... or at least taunt him a second time? ---- Steve Eldredge <steve@byu.edu> wrote: ============ Not a stick of spruce in my A-65 powered piet. It is all doug fir. Finished, flying weight is 626lbs. I had to add 20lbs of lead on the engine mount and move the wing back 3 inches. Suggestions to used a lighter wood on the tail is a good one, save the spar is still fir or spruce. Flew fine for 10 years. Steve E. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:20 PM Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets Not so fast there, young fella... The 680 pounds includes a whole lot more than spruce (or fir). That weight includes all the plywood, glue, metal fittings, fabric, paint, cables, fittings, wheels, and among other things, an ENGINE. Using Fir won't add that much to the weight to the finished plane. But this is a small plane, and whatever the weight difference is will be EXTRA weight. Bill C. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs....


    Message 32


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    Time: 03:37:20 PM PST US
    From: "walt evans" <waltdak@verizon.net>
    Subject: Re: Aileron Question
    Correct, I would completely finish the wing before cutting out the aileron. I forget the actual width of the piano hinge, thought it was narrower than that, maybe 1 1/2"? Can't recall. But most are using the cheaper hinge, ( as I did) and not the extruded one. If the plans call for the hinges from an outhouse door, the cheaper ones will be fine. walt evans NX140DL "No one ever learned anything by talking" Ben Franklin ----- Original Message ----- From: Jack T. Textor To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:10 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron Question Walt, Thanks for the reply. It stands to reason I should put the leading edge ply on also after bracing, correct? On another note, would you recommend 2" (piano) hinges for the ailerons? Thanks! Jack www.textors.com


    Message 33


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    Time: 06:00:14 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "bhassel" <bob@cozyworld.net>
    I think one of the great things about the Piet is the idea that you can use local components and build a safe, reliable and affordable aircraft - sort of like St. Bernard did. I know there are some incredible looking Piets out there, I've seen the pictures and I drool. But the truth is that cost is a huge factor for me; so is safety and so is fun. The ability to find local suppliers helps reduce cost; why pay for shipping across country on anything that I don't have to. If I have to spend the money I'd rather have it on the plane rather than on someone else's truck. Any dollars I can save anywhere can go somewhere else including the gas tank. I don't have a lot of dollars; they are all valuable. In the end I'll probably just order from ACS or Wicks but honestly it'll be because of my level of knowledge about picking out good wood rather than some other reason. I may not build a beautiful Lindy Award Winner like MikeC and others, it may even be ugly compared to some of the jewels that I've seen pictures of, but my goal is affordable flight (I know - oxy-moron - or perhaps straight moron [Laughing] ). Thanks for the input everyone - this is a great forum for a super aircraft. I love the differing ideas - they all make me think and learn! It's great to have everything put into perspective and to scratch a brain cell every once in awhile. Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167529#167529


    Message 34


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    Time: 06:09:12 PM PST US
    From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Brodhead questions
    I'm seriously contemplating a trip to Brodhead and Oshkosh this summer. I am planning to fly commercial from Orlando to Chicago and rent a car from there. Is there a motel close by Brodhead, or do some people camp at the airport for the weekend? I could probably just buy a tent when I get up there and use it both at Brodhead and at Osh if that is possible. I'm hoping to have my Piet project finished by the 80th anniversary and would love to meet some of the guys on the list and maybe even get a ride in one. Ben Charvet Mims, Fl Baby Ace N39D Piet Project NX866BC


    Message 35


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    Time: 06:18:08 PM PST US
    From: "Dick Navratil" <horzpool@goldengate.net>
    Subject: Re: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs.
    Douglas Fir Piets I am right there with you Steve. Doug Fir is an excellent choice. My last purchase was $2.49 bd ft. I'll be buying 16' sections again next week. It is available at local lumber yards and is finish sanded. Also an early plug for Sun n Fun (April 8-13) for all the new guys on the list. The Wood workshop at SNF is kind of a Pietenpol central down there. Several of us volunteer in the shop and are there everyday. This year I will be bringing a set of wing ribs and spars and we will construct a pair of wings at the show. I am going to try to also bring the fuselage (not a Piet) that we built last year. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Steve Eldredge To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 5:18 PM Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets Not a stick of spruce in my A-65 powered piet. It is all doug fir. Finished, flying weight is 626lbs. I had to add 20lbs of lead on the engine mount and move the wing back 3 inches. Suggestions to used a lighter wood on the tail is a good one, save the spar is still fir or spruce. Flew fine for 10 years. Steve E. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:20 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets Not so fast there, young fella... The 680 pounds includes a whole lot more than spruce (or fir). That weight includes all the plywood, glue, metal fittings, fabric, paint, cables, fittings, wheels, and among other things, an ENGINE. Using Fir won't add that much to the weight to the finished plane. But this is a small plane, and whatever the weight difference is will be EXTRA weight. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ryan Mueller Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 3:36 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets According to the text of an article in the EAA Aircraft Building Techniques: Wood book, fir is approximately 26% heavier than spruce. Say a Piet built from spruce was 680 lbs. If you built the whole thing from fir (without reducing dimensions), it would be 826. Based on those calcs.... http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronics. comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution


    Message 36


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    Time: 06:50:44 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "allthumbs" <rray032003@gmail.com>
    Some one wrote, go down to Lowe's and get your wood, thats exactly what I intend to do, for wood working practice I'm building a motorcycle trailer out of Douglas fir that I purchased from the high grade lumber section, you can take you time and select the best boards, some of the grain thats next to the edge runs the entire 18 feet along the edge with no run out. Eight growth rings per inch, no pitch pockets and it is very strong, I love this forum I've found a home. Feel free to speak your mind to me at any time it could save my life. Thanks, -------- Russell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167539#167539


    Message 37


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    Time: 06:54:33 PM PST US
    From: "Skip Gadd" <skipgadd@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets
    The Flying and Glider is great to look over the plans and see how things go together, but there are alot of differences between the F & G and the 1934 plans. There are minor differences in the dems of the wing profile and major differences in the fuse and tail feathers. Take it from someone who found out the hard way, better to not the mix plans. Skip > [Original Message] > From: montanacos <tj_moody@yahoo.com> > To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> > Date: 3/3/2008 1:28:41 PM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir Piets > > I have the Flying and Glider Manual that covers the Piet, and have thought of drawing the rib on autocad and building the ribs until I purchase the complete set of drawings including the long fuse for the corvair engine. I don't think there would be any copy right issues with that approach since the information I have comes from the Flying and gliders manual. > > Thanks in advance and I hope to start soon.


    Message 38


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    Time: 07:15:55 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Brodhead questions
    From: "=?utf-8?B?Sm9obiBSZWNpbmU=?=" <AmsafetyC@aol.com>
    For what its worth I expect Ill be stuck in Rockford Ill that weekend with nothing to do ironically Saturday the 18th is my birthday so being out of town and stuck I may take a drive to kill some time same like last year and like last year loose my way and end up in broadhead. Seems awfual to have that happen again 2 years in a row. I suspect Ill find my way back to Midway some time on Sunday should anyone else get stuck,lost or in need of a ride. They should let me know so while I may not where I am I may end up in Broadhead its hard getting old and lost all at the same time while on business John Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net> To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead questions I'm seriously contemplating a trip to Brodhead and Oshkosh this summer. I am planning to fly commercial from Orlando to Chicago and rent a car from there. Is there a motel close by Brodhead, or do some people camp at the airport for the weekend? I could probably just buy a tent when I get up there and use it both at Brodhead and at Osh if that is possible. I'm hoping to have my Piet project finished by the 80th anniversary and would love to meet some of the guys on the list and maybe even get a ride in one. Ben Charvet Mims, Fl Baby Ace N39D Piet Project NX866BC


    Message 39


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    Time: 07:27:00 PM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    allthumbs wrote: > Some one wrote, go down to Lowe's and get your wood, thats exactly what I intend to do (etc.) That was my plan. Unfortunately, the wood they carry at Lowe's in this area all seems to net out at 10/16, not even an honest 3/4. This leaves me looking for alternative sources. Not that fir will be hard to find. Or generic white wood for the most lightly stressed parts. For that matter, a little more than half-way down the east coast of Florida, spar-quality spruce is not hard to come by, if I feel like paying for it. Bob in Santa Fe: Grading wood for aircraft use is not that hard. Find a copy of AC43-13a, and it will tell you everything you need to know. (Unfortunately, the link I had doesn't work any more.) Owen


    Message 40


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    Time: 08:25:28 PM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    Bob, Being VERY picky, I have found usable poplar at Lowe's. Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Working on Tail Group -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bhassel Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 11:14 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Spruce Alternatives I've worked some with metal and some with composites/fiberglass/MSG but this wood stuff is new to me. I'd like to find a workable solution because of the expense of the spruce and getting it all the way down here in the southwest. Of course living in the desert southwest means aircraft wood is not a naturally occurring entity. I'm not sure I can keep all of my brain cells aligned in this discussion but please don't let it stop. If I could go down to my local Lowe's and find reasonably priced/acceptable wood (still learning that one as well) I'd love it! Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167432#167432


    Message 41


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    Time: 08:52:29 PM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe@calply.com>
    Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs.
    Douglas Fir Don't forget, AC43.13 allows the use of Douglas Fir in a "lesser dimension" as it is stronger than Spruce. That would theoretically mean that the weight may be closer, but the lesser dimension is not provided... Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Working on Tail Group -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Catdesigns Sent: Monday, March 03, 2008 2:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: [!! SPAM] Finished wieghts of Spruce Piets vs. Douglas Fir There is probably about 150 pounds of spruce in airframe. This would make the weight gain more like 40 pounds. -------- Chris Tracy WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167485#167485


    Message 42


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    Time: 08:57:20 PM PST US
    From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    AC 43.13-1B is the latest version of that circular. If you go to: http://rgl.faa.gov/ ....you can find PDF's of that and any other AC's and assorted docs. Ryan allthumbs wrote: > Some one wrote, go down to Lowe's and get your wood, thats exactly what I intend to do (etc.) That was my plan. Unfortunately, the wood they carry at Lowe's in this area all seems to net out at 10/16, not even an honest 3/4. This leaves me looking for alternative sources. Not that fir will be hard to find. Or generic white wood for the most lightly stressed parts. For that matter, a little more than half-way down the east coast of Florida, spar-quality spruce is not hard to come by, if I feel like paying for it. Bob in Santa Fe: Grading wood for aircraft use is not that hard. Find a copy of AC43-13a, and it will tell you everything you need to know. (Unfortunately, the link I had doesn't work any more.) Owen --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


    Message 43


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    Time: 11:23:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Spruce Alternatives
    From: "allthumbs" <rray032003@gmail.com>
    Thnaks -------- Russell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=167584#167584




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