---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 04/01/08: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:26 AM - Re: F-22 (Phillips, Jack) 2. 04:38 AM - Re: Take off roll (Phillips, Jack) 3. 05:05 AM - Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 4. 05:22 AM - Which Locktite to use? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 5. 05:27 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana () 6. 05:29 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 7. 05:37 AM - Re: Which Locktite to use? (Phillips, Jack) 8. 05:46 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Bill Church) 9. 05:51 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Phillips, Jack) 10. 06:01 AM - Re: Which Locktite to use? (Jim Ash) 11. 06:09 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Ron Bell) 12. 06:14 AM - Re: Which Locktite to use? (HelsperSew@aol.com) 13. 06:26 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Phillips, Jack) 14. 06:28 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 15. 06:54 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Owen Davies) 16. 07:21 AM - Re: Which Locktite to use? (Phillips, Jack) 17. 07:22 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Phillips, Jack) 18. 07:44 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (outofthebox50@yahoo.com) 19. 07:57 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Rick Holland) 20. 08:05 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 21. 08:06 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Robert Butsch) 22. 08:15 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 23. 08:25 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Owen Davies) 24. 08:28 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Owen Davies) 25. 08:32 AM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (bike.mike) 26. 08:50 AM - Steaming Chamber (Gary Boothe) 27. 09:11 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Thomas Bernie) 28. 09:18 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Thomas Bernie) 29. 12:18 PM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Kirk Huizenga) 30. 01:11 PM - Re: Dodging church steeples in Indiana (Gordon Bowen) 31. 01:11 PM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Bill Church) 32. 03:03 PM - Piet Pictures (TBYH@aol.com) 33. 08:59 PM - Re: "moth" wing tank (Dick Navratil) 34. 11:03 PM - Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 35. 11:05 PM - Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:51 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: F-22 From: "Phillips, Jack" What beautiful Fairchild! I've got a few hours in a Fairchild 22 with a Warner radial engine on it. Flies like a big heavy Pietenpol. Worst brake system of any plane I've ever flown. Thanks for the pictures Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of T White Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 9:44 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: F-22 A Pietenpol's big brother. This F-22 was just restored at our airpark in Florida and is awaiting FAA approval. 20+ years in restoration. You can eat off this airplane. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Take off roll From: "Phillips, Jack" I have an A65 Continental with a Sensenich 72 x 42 prop. Solo on a 72 F day I get about 350 - 400 fpm. I have a VSI in the panel so I generally know pretty much how poorly it climbs. An interesting characteristic of slow climbing planes like a Pietenpol or a J-3 Cub is that on takeoff, you get a decent climb right after takeoff up to the point where you climb out of ground effect (about one wingspan off the ground). At that point it always seems to "sag" and even lose a little altitude before resuming the climb at a slower rate. This can be very disheartening when you look down the field and see that the trees are higher than you are, and you feel it sinking a bit. This is exxagerated at my home field because the runway slopes downhill so the ground is dropping away, and taking ground effect with it. I remember flying it to Brodhead in '05. Climbing out from Valparaiso, Indiana, behind Mike Cuy, it was hot and I was heavily loaded with fuel and camping gear. We took off to the north, heading right over the town and a half mile from the airport I was still so low I had to dodge a church steeple. Jack Phillips Ready to fly it to Brodhead again -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of outofthebox50@yahoo.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Take off roll Jack, what motor are you using, and do you have any idea of your rate of climb flying solo? Now let me see if I have the formula right? My runway is 600 ft. 400 ft to get off and another 200 ft to clear the 5 ft fence at the end. At the 600 ft mark, I should be at 6.8 ft agl, but does that 150 fpm acount for the downward thrust from the human pucker factor, or since the opening of the cockpit is on top, does the vacume in the seat actually draw air in from above and create added lift? Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Phillips, Jack" To: Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Take off roll I can usually get off the ground in about 400 feet. 150 feet might be possible with a 30 knot wind down the runway. Getting off the ground is not a problem with a Pietenpol. The problem comes when trying to climb over 120 foot trees at the end of the runway (nobody ever told the trees in North Carolina that they are only supposed to be 50 feet tall). On a hot day, my rate of climb with a passenger is about 150 fpm. Assuming that it is moving forward at 50 mph (73 feet per second), and assuming I get off the ground after a 400 foot roll, that means I've got a little under 1 minute to climb high enough to get over the trees at the end of the runway. To be generous, let's say the trees are only 100 feet tall, so now I've got 40 seconds of flying time to get over the trees. In that 40 seconds I will travel 40 x 73 or 2,920 feet. Problem is, the runway is only 2500 feet long and I've already used 400 feet of it before getting off the ground. Solving the problem another way, if I take 400 feet to get off the ground and then travel at 73 feet per second while climbing at 150 fpm for the remaining 2100 feet of runway, I will be 71.92 feet high at the end of the runway, or will impact the trees 28 feet below the treetop. Hence my decision to not carry passengers out of my home field in the Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of outofthebox50@YAHOO.COM Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Take off roll The spec for take off roll says 150ft. I got the impression last week from some of the guys that it was much longer than that. I watched some videos on youtube and it seemed much longer than 150 ft. Have any of you guys with a flying Piet ever tried to figure out your take off roll flying solo? I was wondering what a more realistic number might be. Thanks, Jeremy DFW, TX Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:05:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Jack's story about our poor rates of climb on a very hot July day in 2005 out of Porter County Airport in Valparaiso, Indiana are not exaggerated. In this photo we took off fully fueled and loaded northbound and thank God we had an expanse of open airport property over which to attempt to climb and turn westbound toward Chicago. The little red dot with Valparaiso not only had many fine old church steeples but an array of newly planted cell phone and other towers that we were gingerly banking to avoid. By Chicago we had a good 500 feet agl underneath us:) (it felt like that at times) Mike C. ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:22:21 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? Gentlemen, My prop hub will hang on to the Ford A engine by only 4 bolts and there is not enough room on the back side for any nut at all. Which Locktite product would you use to make sure those bolts never got loose? I need recommendations from some experts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:26 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana From: That looks an awful lot like a google earth picture???? Do not archive ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] Sent: April 1, 2008 8:01 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Jack's story about our poor rates of climb on a very hot July day in 2005 out of Porter County Airport in Valparaiso, Indiana are not exaggerated. In this photo we took off fully fueled and loaded northbound and thank God we had an expanse of open airport property over which to attempt to climb and turn westbound toward Chicago. The little red dot with Valparaiso not only had many fine old church steeples but an array of newly planted cell phone and other towers that we were gingerly banking to avoid. By Chicago we had a good 500 feet agl underneath us:) (it felt like that at times) Mike C. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:20 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Given that the Piet is a "low and slow" airplane, what can be done to get the rate of climb in the 500-600 range at gross? Boyce **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:57 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? From: "Phillips, Jack" Dan are you threading the bolts into the hub? I guess I don't understand your question. If you are threading the prop bolts from the face of the prop plate through the prop and into threaded holes on your engine flange, you could drill the heads of the bolts and safety wire all the prop bolts. That would give you a nice visual check for security before each flight. With loctite, you would never know if one came loose without using a torquewrench. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:19 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? Gentlemen, My prop hub will hang on to the Ford A engine by only 4 bolts and there is not enough room on the back side for any nut at all. Which Locktite product would you use to make sure those bolts never got loose? I need recommendations from some experts. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home . _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:46:22 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles BScott, Hans wasn't saying to use this nut as a method to safety the turnbuckle, but rather, as an easier method to adjust the tension, since the adjusting can be done in the middle, as opposed to sticking an allen key inside the fitting. I've attached an image to help illustrate. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BScott116@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Why not use drilled AN nut for safety wire? In a message dated 3/31/2008 2:33:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, eng@canadianrogers.com writes: ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana From: "Phillips, Jack" Try a JATO unit? Seriously, The main thing would be reduce drag and add power without adding weight. Never under-estimate the drag of a Pietenpol - it is a flying sea-anchor. The Pietenpol airfoil seems to have the remarkable combination of low-lift / high drag. The Riblett airfoil has been flown on a Pietenpol (Lowell Frank's) and is reported to have much improved performance. More power is always a good thing, but it takes a lot of power to make much impact on all that drag. There are a number of Pietenpols flying with 100 or even 115 hp engines. I have not flown one of them - every Piet I've flown has had a 65 Continental on the nose, and they've all flown about like mine. Perhaps some of the pilots with 100 hp + on their Piets can comment on the climb rates they get. Remember, when you say "500-600 fpm at gross" you are asking for a 400% improvement. That's like me asking how to change my RV-4 from its 2000 fpm climb rate to an 8,000 fpm climb. It is too much to ask. Jack Phillips "The Pietenpol is Slow, but the Sky is Patient" _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Given that the Piet is a "low and slow" airplane, what can be done to get the rate of climb in the 500-600 range at gross? Boyce _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home . _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 06:01:57 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? What he said... Unless you're capable of drilling the bolt heads yourself with reasonable accuracy, I might be inclined to buy them commercially from somebody like Skybolt or Aircraft Spruce. They're not expensive. In my ignorance, I thought these bolts were required to have some kind of positive fastening system. Does Locktite count? These four bolts are probably subject to more harsh vibration than any other fastener on the plane. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: "Phillips, Jack" >Sent: Apr 1, 2008 8:35 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? > >Dan are you threading the bolts into the hub? I guess I don't >understand your question. If you are threading the prop bolts from the >face of the prop plate through the prop and into threaded holes on your >engine flange, you could drill the heads of the bolts and safety wire >all the prop bolts. That would give you a nice visual check for >security before each flight. With loctite, you would never know if one >came loose without using a torquewrench. > > > >Jack Phillips > >NX899JP > > > > _____ > >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of >HelsperSew@aol.com >Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:19 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? > > > >Gentlemen, > > > >My prop hub will hang on to the Ford A engine by only 4 bolts and there >is not enough room on the back side for any nut at all. Which Locktite >product would you use to make sure those bolts never got loose? I need >recommendations from some experts. > > > >Dan Helsper >Poplar Grove, IL. > > > _____ > >Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home >hom00030000000001> . > > > > > >_________________________________________________ > >or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender > >Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 06:09:22 AM PST US From: "Ron Bell" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Increase the power to weight ratio. That means you must increase power or decrease weight. Power gives you climb performance. Drag reduction gives you speed. Ron Bell Mechanicsville, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:27 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Given that the Piet is a "low and slow" airplane, what can be done to get the rate of climb in the 500-600 range at gross? Boyce _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home . ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:14:05 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? Jack, The engine flange (which is actually the transmission attach flange on the Ford A) has only 4 threaded holes 7/16" dia. available to attach my continental-style prop hub that I got from Ken Perkins. This engine flange has no clearance to speak of between it and the crankcase. The six prop hold-on bolts do not line-up at all with these four available engine flange holes. (http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=hub_an1-012s.jpg&PhotoID=815 ) In this photo you can see the four bolts that attach this hub to the engine flange (black socket head) that will be recessed into this prop flange when tight. There is no room to get any safety wire on the heads of these four socket head bolts either. Ken Perkins says to use Locktite but I need to know which kind I can depend on. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:26:44 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles From: "Phillips, Jack" Just a comment here - if you are talking about brazing or welding the tensioning nut, keep in mind that welding or brazing will destroy the heat treatment of the bolt and greatly reduce its strength. I don't think I would want to do that. A better solution would be to use a reduced diameter nut (like an MS21042) as a jam nut against this one. That would still leave the nut available for tensioning (the MS21042 is small enough that it won't interfere with putting a wrench on the hex nut). Just as an aside, I really like the MS21042 nuts. They weigh less than half what a standard AN365 locknut weighs, they are high strength nuts and they are reduced in height as well as diameter, so you can often use a bolt one grip length size less, again saving weight. Their only drawback is cost - about 10 cents more than an AN365. They also are all metal so can be used as locknuts in high heat applications. They were standard fasteners used nearly everywhere on the F-16, back in the days of my youth when I was working as a junior engineer at General Dynamics. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:44 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles BScott, Hans wasn't saying to use this nut as a method to safety the turnbuckle, but rather, as an easier method to adjust the tension, since the adjusting can be done in the middle, as opposed to sticking an allen key inside the fitting. I've attached an image to help illustrate. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BScott116@aol.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:26 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Why not use drilled AN nut for safety wire? In a message dated 3/31/2008 2:33:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, eng@canadianrogers.com writes: _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:45 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana So then your increase in power has to more than offset the increase in weight associated with the power change. Hmmmm. Maybe a hopped up A-65? So what can be done to make the A-65 have more power? Carb jetting, more compression, timing, tuned exhaust? How much does increasing compression affect hand propping difficulty? Just sorta thinking out loud guys. BTW, if anyone is near Camden SC there's a guy advertising two Continental A-65's in the Carolina Trader for $500.00. One is disassembled, the other is together. Boyce **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:29 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Among other useful comments, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > The Riblett airfoil has been flown on a Pietenpol (Lowell Franks) and > is reported to have much improved performance. > Has this been mentioned here before? If so, I missed it. Which Riblett airfoil? He's done a lot of them. Thanks. Owen ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 07:21:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? From: "Phillips, Jack" Ah, now I understand the problem. And you won't even be able to see these bolts without removing the prop. Again, I don't like trusting Loctite for such a high-vibration, critical task, but without changing the design of the hub I don't see any other option. Jack _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Which Locktite to use? Jack, The engine flange (which is actually the transmission attach flange on the Ford A) has only 4 threaded holes 7/16" dia. available to attach my continental-style prop hub that I got from Ken Perkins. This engine flange has no clearance to speak of between it and the crankcase. The six prop hold-on bolts do not line-up at all with these four available engine flange holes. hub_an1-012s.jpg In this photo you can see the four bolts that attach this hub to the engine flange (black socket head) that will be recessed into this prop flange when tight. There is no room to get any safety wire on the heads of these four socket head bolts either. Ken Perkins says to use Locktite but I need to know which kind I can depend on. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. _____ Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home . _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:22:12 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana From: "Phillips, Jack" There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the last year about this airfoil. I don't have the numbers, but you should be absle to search the archives and find it. Jack Phillips -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen Davies Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Among other useful comments, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > The Riblett airfoil has been flown on a Pietenpol (Lowell Frank's) and > is reported to have much improved performance. > Has this been mentioned here before? If so, I missed it. Which Riblett airfoil? He's done a lot of them. Thanks. Owen _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 07:44:11 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com Hey Boyce, do you happen to have the number on those A65s? Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com To:pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana So then your increase in power has to more than= offset the increase in weight associated with the power change. Hmmmm. Maybe= a hopped up A-65? So what can be done to make the A-65 have more power? Carb jetting, more compression, timing, tuned exhaust? How much does increasing compression affect hand propping difficulty? Just sorta thinking out loud gu= ys. BTW, if anyone is near Camden SC there's a guy advertising two Continental A-65's in the Carolina Trader for $500.00. One is disassembled, the other is= together. Boyce ---------------- Create a Home T= heater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana I believe its called the 612 airfoil and you can get info on it from Bill Rewey. A full size plan for it is also available, just search the archives for 612 or Riblett. If my completed wings weren't hanging in my garage I would build to the 612 airfoil. Rick On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 8:19 AM, Phillips, Jack < Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wrote: > Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> > > There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the last year about this > airfoil. I don't have the numbers, but you should be absle to search > the archives and find it. > > Jack Phillips > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Owen > Davies > Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 9:49 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana > > > Among other useful comments, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > > > The Riblett airfoil has been flown on a Pietenpol (Lowell Frank's) and > > > is reported to have much improved performance. > > > Has this been mentioned here before? If so, I missed it. Which Riblett > airfoil? He's done a lot of them. > > Thanks. > > Owen > > > _________________________________________________ > > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please > notify the sender > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - > Norsk - Portuguese > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 08:05:12 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Here ya go, don't have a name. Link is to a picture.... 803 438 9799 _The Carolina Trader - Pay When You Sell - Advertise Free_ (http://www.carolinatrader.com/default1.htm) **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:24 AM PST US From: "Robert Butsch" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Hello fellas: My name is Bob Butsch and I'm in Indianapolis. Just started working on my Air Camper after having had the plans for many (too many) years. I have lofted the Harry Riblett airfoil a couple of you have been talking about. It is the Riblett GA30U-612. You won't find it on the internet. I tried about every site I could think of. Perhaps you will have more luck. I bought a packet of info from Bill Rewey which had the ordinates for the airfoil. I also purchased Harry's book on his GA airfoils and the GA30U-612 is NOT in it. Bill Rewey changed the aft upper ordinates a bit because the trailing edge was very sharp. I left it alone since I will be using commercial aluminum trailing edge anyhow. I have been in contact with Lowell Frank and he says he likes it very much. You can contact Bill Rewey at 3339 Mound View Road Verona, WI 53593. He does not have an email address and I don't have a phone number for him. I'm in the process of making my rib jigs and have designed a simple steaming chamber I hope to finish and test today. I also just received Mike Cuy's video recently and highly recommend it to any new builder. I also recently reserved my N number. It is NX45BB. It was the last two digit number available with a suffix of BB. I also went through all the "X" business and finally just called the FAA to get the skinny. The info you have been reading is quite correct. At the time of receiving your airworthiness certificate, the FAA rep will O.K. the use of "X" in the number. I must say that I have been reading all the posts for quite some time now and have learned much. Every time I think I have something to contribute, someone else always seems to come back with what I was going to say before I get a chance. That's O.K. I won't have to type as much. Later. Bob Butsch ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 08:15:33 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana OK, the link to the picture didn't work...probably because it is password protected. You have to subscribe to read the ads.... **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:45 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Phillips, Jack wrote: > There's been a lot of discussion on the list in the last year about this > airfoil. I don't have the numbers, but you should be absle to search > the archives and find it. Will do. Thanks. It probably predates my rejoining the list. Owen ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 08:28:33 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Thanks all. Given that my Piet thus far consists of only five ribs, I may make the change. Now to look up the previous messages on the list and see just what they have to say about how much the new airfoil improves performance. Owen ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:06 AM PST US From: "bike.mike" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana MessageSurplus power gives you climb rate. If all of your power is used to overcome drag, you get no climb. Reduce the drag, without increasing power, and you will have more available climb rate. On a 1100# gross Piet, each horsepower not used to overcome drag will give you 1/2 foot per second (30 fpm) of climb. (one Hp = 550 ft-lbf/sec, or 33,000 ft-lbf/min) Mike Hardaway ----- Original Message ----- From: Ron Bell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 5:05 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Increase the power to weight ratio. That means you must increase power or decrease weight. Power gives you climb performance. Drag reduction gives you speed. Ron Bell Mechanicsville, VA -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:27 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Given that the Piet is a "low and slow" airplane, what can be done to get the rate of climb in the 500-600 range at gross? Boyce ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:50:01 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steaming Chamber Bob, You are not far behind me. I have 4 ribs built + the tail section. Speaking of steaming chambers, though, I found that steaming was not necessary. I built a simple "soaking chamber" out of 3" pvc with a pvc cap on one end (actually, it was what I kept my fishing pole in). Just put in as many cap strips as you can fit, or want, and fill with cold water. Let soak overnight, and the strips are ready for forming. I can soak capstrips much faster than I can build ribs! Only the lower 2/3's of the strip needs to be formed, so if the strips stick out at the top, just wrap some wire around them and tie to the pvc - that will keep them from floating. Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Working on Tail Group (+4 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Robert Butsch Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:04 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Hello fellas: My name is Bob Butsch and I'm in Indianapolis. Just started working on my Air Camper after having had the plans for many (too many) years. I have lofted the Harry Riblett airfoil a couple of you have been talking about. It is the Riblett GA30U-612. You won't find it on the internet. I tried about every site I could think of. Perhaps you will have more luck. I bought a packet of info from Bill Rewey which had the ordinates for the airfoil. I also purchased Harry's book on his GA airfoils and the GA30U-612 is NOT in it. Bill Rewey changed the aft upper ordinates a bit because the trailing edge was very sharp. I left it alone since I will be using commercial aluminum trailing edge anyhow. I have been in contact with Lowell Frank and he says he likes it very much. You can contact Bill Rewey at 3339 Mound View Road Verona, WI 53593. He does not have an email address and I don't have a phone number for him. I'm in the process of making my rib jigs and have designed a simple steaming chamber I hope to finish and test today. I also just received Mike Cuy's video recently and highly recommend it to any new builder. I also recently reserved my N number. It is NX45BB. It was the last two digit number available with a suffix of BB. I also went through all the "X" business and finally just called the FAA to get the skinny. The info you have been reading is quite correct. At the time of receiving your airworthiness certificate, the FAA rep will O.K. the use of "X" in the number. I must say that I have been reading all the posts for quite some time now and have learned much. Every time I think I have something to contribute, someone else always seems to come back with what I was going to say before I get a chance. That's O.K. I won't have to type as much. Later. Bob Butsch ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:08 AM PST US From: Thomas Bernie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Good idea, i think that would work fine -- probably take 6 different sizes and be lighter. On Mar 31, 2008, at 11:26 PM, BScott116@aol.com wrote: > Why not use drilled AN nut for safety wire? > > In a message dated 3/31/2008 2:33:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, eng@canadianrogers.com > writes: > > > > Now, there's a good idea. > Good thinking, Hans. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > hvandervoo@aol.com > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 2:09 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Bill, > > On your home made turn buckle, why not place a nut in the middle and > have it > soledered / brazed. > Or perhaps even loctite (680) to keep it form rotating. > > Alternatively two small nuts "jammed" > > It is then easily adjustable with a "hex" in the middle > > > my 2 ======================= > e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS > nbsp; - List Contribution Web > Site ; ======================== > > > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. > > Thomas Bernie tsbe ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 09:18:13 AM PST US From: Thomas Bernie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles They are pain. Yours is a superior design design. On Mar 31, 2008, at 10:43 AM, Bill Church wrote: > > Tom, > > Nice photo. > Your turnbuckles look very sililar to the Flitzer-style fittings. > How are they for adjusting? (pain in the butt, or just as annoying > as regular turnbuckles). Of course, the adjusting should be a one- > time thing, so as long as they work, the extra fiddling (if any) > should be inconsequential, in the long run. > Will you need to safety wire the assembly, or does the jam-nut do > that for you? > Thanks for sharing. > > Bill C. > > Thomas Bernie tsbe ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 12:18:29 PM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Bill, nice drawing - is that Inventor? Kirk On Apr 1, 2008, at 7:43 AM, Bill Church wrote: > BScott, > Hans wasn't saying to use this nut as a method to safety the > turnbuckle, but rather, as an easier method to adjust the tension, > since the adjusting can be done in the middle, as opposed to > sticking an allen key inside the fitting. I've attached an image to > help illustrate. > > > > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner- > pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of BScott116@aol.com > Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 11:26 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > Why not use drilled AN nut for safety wire? > > In a message dated 3/31/2008 2:33:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > eng@canadianrogers.com writes: > ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:02 PM PST US From: "Gordon Bowen" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana i have 108hp o-235 lyco but Aeronca wing, sorry no comparison with Piete's undercut wing. N-1033B springs off the ground at all loads. Realize Bernard didn't have the benefit of the NACA research done in the late 30's and 40's., think he'd be proud to have tried todays modern engines and flat bottomed wings. No harm in getting the best from this fine flying machine. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 4:48 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Try a JATO unit? Seriously, The main thing would be reduce drag and add power without adding weight. Never under-estimate the drag of a Pietenpol - it is a flying sea-anchor. The Pietenpol airfoil seems to have the remarkable combination of low-lift / high drag. The Riblett airfoil has been flown on a Pietenpol (Lowell Frank's) and is reported to have much improved performance. More power is always a good thing, but it takes a lot of power to make much impact on all that drag. There are a number of Pietenpols flying with 100 or even 115 hp engines. I have not flown one of them - every Piet I've flown has had a 65 Continental on the nose, and they've all flown about like mine. Perhaps some of the pilots with 100 hp + on their Piets can comment on the climb rates they get. Remember, when you say "500-600 fpm at gross" you are asking for a 400% improvement. That's like me asking how to change my RV-4 from its 2000 fpm climb rate to an 8,000 fpm climb. It is too much to ask. Jack Phillips "The Pietenpol is Slow, but the Sky is Patient" ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 8:27 AM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dodging church steeples in Indiana Given that the Piet is a "low and slow" airplane, what can be done to get the rate of climb in the 500-600 range at gross? Boyce ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ttp://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List .com tronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:45 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Kirk, It was created with SolidWorks. Very similar to Inventor. Very powerful and impressive CAD program. Here's another view, but with metallic finishes rather than colours (or colors). Bill _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kirk Huizenga Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Bill, nice drawing - is that Inventor? Kirk ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:03:57 PM PST US From: TBYH@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piet Pictures Hey guys! And ladies! I'm working on an article about Brodhead for the Wisconsin Aviation Hall of Fame's quarterly magazine and need some pics of Piets attending the annual fly-in. Would like some air-to-air shots, if possible. BTW -- I'm not getting paid for this article...but will send copies of the finished, published article to anyone that can help me out. Please send jpgs -- need to be relatively high resolution. Say 300 dpi at 3x5 inches size. My e-mail is: _TBYH@aol.com_ (mailto:TBYH@aol.com) Meanwhile, I'm in the process of fastening the tail on the Piet...my wife came down to the basement the other day and shrieked, "My God! It really is an airplane!" Even she is a little impressed now... Many thanks for any pics you can send! Fred Beseler La Crosse, WI **************Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. (http://home.aol.com/diy/home-improvement-eric-stromer?video=15&ncid=aolhom00030000000001) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:31 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: "moth" wing tank Douwe One fairly simple way of doing this problem is to calculate how many sq. ft your tank is, then multiply by .625, times the height of the tank in inches. There are .625 gal in 1 sq. ft, one inch deep. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: Douwe Blumberg To: pietenpolgroup Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: "moth" wing tank Hello, For a long time, I've been thinking of "bumping" up the top of my wing tank because I'd like to get an extra hour of fuel, so I'm looking for around four, maybe five more gallons. It's really the only option I have since I'm using a Ford and can't get the carb low enough for a nose tank. I'm thinking that if it wouldn't be too noticible on the ground since it seems as if it only needs to come up a couple of inches. I just can't figure the math though, if I generally follow the top contour of the wing, and go almost to each side with the "bump" can anyone estimate how high the highest spot would need to go to get about five more gallons? My best guess is about 2.5 inches. Also, it seems like it would make fueling easier if the cap was to one side, but then I thought it might want to slosh out more in a bank than if it was centered. Any thoughts or experience on this too? Douwe ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:54 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator [ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ] This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address: http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm ************************************************************ ******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ******* ************************************************************ PLEASE READ. This document contains Pietenpol-List policies and information for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Pietenpol-List policies will minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Pietenpol-List running smoothly for all of us. ****************************************** *** Quick Start Guide to List Features *** ****************************************** There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this List. 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The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/pietenpol-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Pietenpol-List content. content. 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Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Pietenpol-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Pietenpol-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Pietenpol-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Pietenpol-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Pietenpol-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Pietenpol ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:08 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: Official Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Pietenpol-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Pietenpol-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Pietenpol-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Pietenpol-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Pietenpol-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Pietenpol-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Pietenpol-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occassional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularyly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.