---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/07/08: 32 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:02 AM - Re: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (Owen Davies) 2. 03:59 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders () 3. 05:29 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Pietn38b) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (Michael Silvius) 5. 05:41 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Michael Silvius) 6. 05:56 AM - Re: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (Gary Boothe) 7. 06:03 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Gary Boothe) 8. 07:04 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Steve Ruse) 9. 07:11 AM - Re: Home Made Air Speed Indicator - follow up notes (John Egan) 10. 07:17 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Brian Kraut) 11. 07:51 AM - Re: what kind of harley wheels? - H-D Sportster (John Egan) 12. 08:10 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Brian Kraut) 13. 08:20 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (TOM STINEMETZE) 14. 08:34 AM - This is not a Pietenpol but... (BYD@att.net) 15. 08:41 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Steve Ruse) 16. 09:04 AM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (TOM STINEMETZE) 17. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (Owen Davies) 18. 09:14 AM - Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... (Michael Silvius) 19. 09:17 AM - Re: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (Owen Davies) 20. 11:12 AM - Re: Re: Newbie question (shad bell) 21. 12:12 PM - Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... (BYD) 22. 12:15 PM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (Gene & Tammy) 23. 01:11 PM - Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... (bhassel) 24. 01:20 PM - Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... (BYD) 25. 01:28 PM - Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? (bhassel) 26. 01:57 PM - Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... (bhassel) 27. 02:05 PM - Antique Altimeters (Bill Church) 28. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Newbie question (walt evans) 29. 04:53 PM - Re: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders (del magsam) 30. 06:39 PM - Jungster 1 (Gary Boothe) 31. 07:23 PM - Hickory (Gary Boothe) 32. 07:33 PM - Re: Hickory (Gary Boothe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:11 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? bhassel wrote: > Don't stop there Owen! Sounds like a great set of ideas! Trouble is, I'm nowhere near enough of an engineer to rework the wing. What would it take, a sturdy built-up spar or two and a proper D-tube leading edge? A full plywood cover? One might start by looking at the Jodel wing. The D-11 is about the right empty weight for a heavy Pietenpol, but its gross would take the "low-wing Piet" out of the LSA category. I suppose if we design and build the plane we can set our own gross? That leaves only the question of whether we really want to take a relatively simple project and complicate it beyond all recognition. Owen ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:59:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders From: Mmmmmmmm? Fiber glass tank. Were you using gas with ethonal in it? ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ruse Sent: April 7, 2008 12:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders First I guess I should state that I am a non-builder owner. I bought my GN-1 3 years ago, and have flown it around 300hrs. It has about 500hrs total time, and has been a great plane. I took a friend up for a brief flight this evening, and when we landed I started removing all of my fuel lines and fittings, I intend to replace the rubber lines with stainless braided lines. My fuel tank is a fiberglass 18.3 gallon tank in the nose. I was pulling the fuel line off the nipple on the fuel valve at the bottom of the tank, and the entire fuel valve, strainer, and all fittings broke right off the bottom of the tank! This left the ~3/8" hole in the bottom of the tank wide open, which poured some fuel into the cockpit until I was able to stick my finger in the hole. I was working through an inspection hole on the side of the fuse directly behind the firewall. There were at least 12 gallons of fuel in the tank, which we had to empty using a coffee can, one can at a time. Luckily I had a friend there with me, I would've been in trouble if I had been working alone like I usually am. As you can imagine, this situation in itself created a fire hazard in the hangar. I was not using excessive force on the fuel line, a moderate kick by the passenger would've had the same effect. It would've resulting in immediate engine failure, a forced landing, and the emptying of the fuel tank into the cockpit! A very, very bad situation! That is something for builders to take note of, make sure your fuel fittings are very, very sturdy! I was replacing the rubber fuel lines with stainless braided lines to increase the strength of the whole system, little did I know that the fuel tank fitting probably had less than 10% of the strength of the rubber fuel lines that were installed. Attached are three pictures of the broken fitting, as well as one picture of the fitting I had taken several weeks ago to help me decide what I needed to do to change the valve and hoses. As you can see, the fitting and strainer were held to the tank only by a large glob of fiberglass resin. There was no fiber in this glob, so the mechanical bond to the tank was relatively weak. The "blob" was also placed on the tank after the tank had cured, so the resins were not actually mixed, the blob was just "stuck" on the cured tank. This was the only mechanical bond between the tank fitting and the tank. Now, I need to determine what to do to get the plane airworthy. I can build another tank, or I could try to determine a way to attach my new fuel valve to the old tank. Of course, my primary concern is being able to attach the valve in a very secure manner. I believe replacing the tank would legally require a new restricted fly-off period by the local FSDO as it is a major change. I belive replacing the the existing fuel valve would not require a new fly-off period. Any tips anyone can give me on a good method to secure a new valve to the existing tank would be greatly appreciated. I fly this plane a lot, and flying season is here so I hate to have it down, but repairing it properly and safely is my primary concern. I would like the new valve to be mounted to the tank using a method that is strong enough that it would damage the tank before the fitting would just fall off like this. I will remove the tank this week and post a few pictures. Thanks for any suggestions or input! Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:29:29 AM PST US From: Pietn38b Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Steve A quick fix, depending on fuel quantity requirements, would be to install a J-3 tank. I have one in mine and it works well. I am not a composite person but would be very wary of a repair of a used composite tank. I don't live too far from you so would be glad to show you my installation if you would like. Jim Ballew Pietenpol Aircamper Collinsville, OK 918-371-9624 In a message dated 04/06/08 23:38:33 Central Daylight Time, steve@wotelectronics.com writes: First I guess I should state that I am a non-builder owner. I bought my GN-1 3 years ago, and have flown it around 300hrs. It has about 500hrs total time, and has been a great plane. I took a friend up for a brief flight this evening, and when we landed I started removing all of my fuel lines and fittings, I intend to replace the rubber lines with stainless braided lines. My fuel tank is a fiberglass 18.3 gallon tank in the nose. I was pulling the fuel line off the nipple on the fuel valve at the bottom of the tank, and the entire fuel valve, strainer, and all fittings broke right off the bottom of the tank! This left the ~3/8" hole in the bottom of the tank wide open, which poured some fuel into the cockpit until I was able to stick my finger in the hole. I was working through an inspection hole on the side of the fuse directly behind the firewall. There were at least 12 gallons of fuel in the tank, which we had to empty using a coffee can, one can at a time. Luckily I had a friend there with me, I would've been in trouble if I had been working alone like I usually am. As you can imagine, this situation in itself created a fire hazard in the hanga r. I was not using excessive force on the fuel line, a moderate kick by the passenger would've had the same effect. It would've resulting in immediate engine failure, a forced landing, and the emptying of the fuel tank into the cockpit! A very, very bad situation! That is something for builders to take note of, make sure your fuel fittings are very, very sturdy! I was replacing the rubber fuel lines with stainless braided lines to increase the strength of the whole system, little did I know that the fuel tank fitting probably had less than 10% of the strength of the rubber fuel lines that were installed. Attached are three pictures of the broken fitting, as well as one picture of the fitting I had taken several weeks ago to help me decide what I needed to do to change the valve and hoses. As you can see, the fitting and strainer were held to the tank only by a large glob of fiberglass resin. There was no fiber in this glob, so the mechanical bond to the tank was relatively weak. The "blob" was also placed on the tank after the tank had cured, so the resins were not actually mixed, the blob was just "stuck" on the cured tank. This was the only mechanical bond between the tank fitting and the tank. Now, I need to determine what to do to get the plane airworthy. I can build another tank, or I could try to determine a way to attach my new fuel valve to the old tank. Of course, my primary concern is being able to attach the valve in a very secure manner. I believe replacing the tank would legally require a new restricted fly-off period by the local FSDO as it is a major change. I belive replacing the the existing fuel valve would not require a new fly-off period. Any tips anyone can give me on a good method to secure a new valve to the existing tank would be greatly appreciated. I fly this plane a lot, and flying season is here so I hate to have it down, but repairing it properly and safely is my primary concern. I would like the new valve to be mounted to the tank using a method that is strong enough that it would damage the tank before the fitting would just fall off like this. I will remove the tank this week and post a few pictures. Thanks for any suggestions or input! Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:32 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? Yes But the Spar on the D-11 is a bear to build with its built in washout. Outermost wing profile beyond the crank pitches down in chord for lower airspeed control while main wing is already staled and this is change in pitch is built in to the box spar. I am completing a Falconar F-12 with this detail. And the one piece Jodel/Falconar wing at 27 feet is not the most convenient in terms of work space. I had to build a bump out in my shop just to fit the wing. I do think the low wing Piet is attractive esthetically and it makes access to the front cockpit a lot simpler. I think on order to do it properly one would be best advised to look at the FlyBaby structure. I would call it an Air-sportster instead of an Aircamper and leave the Pietenpol part off in order not to offend the purists. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Davies" > Trouble is, I'm nowhere near enough of an engineer to rework the wing. > What would it take, a sturdy built-up spar or two and a proper D-tube > leading edge? A full plywood cover? One might start by looking at the > Jodel wing. The D-11 is about the right empty weight for a heavy > Pietenpol, but its gross would take the "low-wing Piet" out of the LSA > category. I suppose if we design and build the plane we can set our own > gross? That leaves only the question of whether we really want to take a > relatively simple project and complicate it beyond all recognition. > > Owen > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:41:09 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders If the tank is not weak elsewhere, I would clean it thoroughly, repair appropriately with plenty of fiberglass and then slosh the tank with POR15 to prevent the ethanol blends form affecting it further. I believe the ethanol is a likely cause of your break. Others have fixed the problem with the POR15 tank sealer. Michael ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:56:11 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? Michael, Thank you for the consideration of our tender feelings! For those who may not have seen this, here is a link to the Spacewalker II: http://www.me.mtu.edu/~jaricher/flying/warner_airplane_info.pdf. It's a low wing, open cockpit, kit. Looks like it has a metal fuse and wood & fabric wings...no struts. Though I am a lifetime PT-22 fan, I have nearly maxed out on UV and the shade of a high wing is welcome! Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Working on Tail Group (6 ribs down...) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Silvius Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:31 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? Yes But the Spar on the D-11 is a bear to build with its built in washout. Outermost wing profile beyond the crank pitches down in chord for lower airspeed control while main wing is already staled and this is change in pitch is built in to the box spar. I am completing a Falconar F-12 with this detail. And the one piece Jodel/Falconar wing at 27 feet is not the most convenient in terms of work space. I had to build a bump out in my shop just to fit the wing. I do think the low wing Piet is attractive esthetically and it makes access to the front cockpit a lot simpler. I think on order to do it properly one would be best advised to look at the FlyBaby structure. I would call it an Air-sportster instead of an Aircamper and leave the Pietenpol part off in order not to offend the purists. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Davies" > Trouble is, I'm nowhere near enough of an engineer to rework the wing. > What would it take, a sturdy built-up spar or two and a proper D-tube > leading edge? A full plywood cover? One might start by looking at the > Jodel wing. The D-11 is about the right empty weight for a heavy > Pietenpol, but its gross would take the "low-wing Piet" out of the LSA > category. I suppose if we design and build the plane we can set our own > gross? That leaves only the question of whether we really want to take a > relatively simple project and complicate it beyond all recognition. > > Owen > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:03:32 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders I see that there is an aluminum disc attached to that whole mess. You might consider epoxying two .040 aluminum straps (so that they will fit thru the hole in the bottom) in a place where you can rivet or screw the 'disc' to them. This in conjunction with cleaning and patching. That might give you a fitting that is less likely to pull out. Also consider mounting that shut off some where on the firewall, or the fuse side where it can be easily reached, but secure. Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Working on Tail Group (6 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Silvius Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 6:39 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders If the tank is not weak elsewhere, I would clean it thoroughly, repair appropriately with plenty of fiberglass and then slosh the tank with POR15 to prevent the ethanol blends form affecting it further. I believe the ethanol is a likely cause of your break. Others have fixed the problem with the POR15 tank sealer. Michael ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:51 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders The plane has never had autogas in it. Avgas only. I believe the problem here is that fiberglass resin was used as an adhesive or "glue", with no fiber. It is my understanding that resin is not intended for this purpose, and so the mechanical connection to the tank was poor. With sloshing compounds like POR15, how much concern is there with the compound coming loose, even 20 years down the road? I've head of this happening...of course once the compound is loose, it can clog the fuel system. What is the life expectancy of POR15? Who here is using a fiberglass tank? Do you have any pictures showing how you attached your fuel tank fitting? I like the idea of putting aluminum bracing inside the tank, perhaps with rivnuts or some other permanent fasteners insde the tank in a 3" or so radius. Of course I'll have to locate a magician who can make these components appear inside the tank, or use straps as Gary suggested. That would be a very strong connection to the tank. Using a J3 tank had crossed my mind, but my current tank holds 18 gallons, I would like to not reduce my range at all. I have a 2.5hr range currently, but I consider about 3 gallons in this tank unusable due to its height above the carburetor (not enough head pressure to meet the carb specs). Also, I intend to put a cable operated remote fuel shut off in the cockpit, that was part of my reason for doing messing with the whole fuel system. With the original installation I couldn't reach the fuel valve from the cockpit, and the original fuel valve was too stiff to be cable operated. I bought a new valve that should work well with a cable operator. Thanks for the input so far, I really appreciate you builders helping out a lowly non-builder. Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting Michael Silvius : > If the tank is not weak elsewhere, I would clean it thoroughly, > repair appropriately with plenty of fiberglass and then slosh the > tank with POR15 to prevent the ethanol blends form affecting it > further. I believe the ethanol is a likely cause of your break. > Others have fixed the problem with the POR15 tank sealer. > > Michael ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:11:38 AM PST US From: John Egan Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Home Made Air Speed Indicator - follow up notes John, Regarding the vane style air speed indicator - Building Notes I did not measure anything when building my airspeed indicator, however it's about 7-1/2" tall and about 5" wide at the bottom and about 1-1/2" at the top. If I make another, I'll trim some width off the top. I started with a piece of spring wire and found that I needed about a 7" length of wire on the paddle end for the air pressure to deflect the spring a reasonable amount. I happen to have some very thin spring wire (too thin) and some 0.078" dia wire which I used, so my options on wire were limited. The wire stiffness helped to designate the overall size of this. I used 0.020" 6061 aluminum because that's the material I had laying around. I added the 3/16" creases in it to stiffen it which worked very well. I milled the 1/8" wide slot in the spring guide by drilling the two end holes, then I placed a steel straight edge from hole to hole (tangent to the holes) and used a little cut off wheel on the dremel tool to cut the straight line (guiding the wheel against the straight edge). That took about four minutes total. I have since pop riveted the spring guide to the body of the assembly. I originally hesitated in fixing the spring guide to the body, until I decided how I would attach the assembly to the jury strut. I thought I may use the same pop rivet hole to hold the jury strut attachment fitting, as I was challenging myself to make this out of as few pieces as possible, and to make it look simple. I didn't have any little lock nuts for those small bolts either, so I made temporay nuts out of a piece of aluminum sheet. I referenced the same documents that Bill Church posted (Chuck Larsen and Dawn Patrol) to build mine. They were very helpful. As stated in my posting, I intend this to be a decorative air speed indicator only, and I am not planning on relying on it's accuracy, although I will try to tune it by bending the vane wire. I am sure there is no right way to make these and like all Piets, every one is a winner because some body built it to completion. Thank you, john e. wisconsin ----- Original Message ---- From: "AMsafetyC@aol.com" Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 8:55:55 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Home Made Air Speed Indicator For those of us that would like to try our hand, do you have dimensions and detail drawing information from which to work? John In a message dated 4/2/2008 9:47:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, johnegan99@yahoo.com writes: Hello Group, I've attached some photos of a home made Vane Type Air Speed Indicator I made. The recent energy surrounding Bill's home made turnbuckles and hard wire brace wires motivated me to attempt to make an air speed indicator. You may recognize the design as I referanced an old Sport Aviation Article "Craftsman Corner" by Chuck Larsen. Although, not quite complete I'll share these photos hoping to create motivation to others. I need to add a couple of rivets, paint, and make some kind of sticker to indicate speed. Material: 0.078" diameter spring wire, 0.020" thick 6061 aluminum sheet, two little bolts, two little pop rivets (in place of the duct tape). I found that the spring wire I used required only one wrap to make a torsion spring with reasonable deflection. I made a couple of different size vanes to get the required deflection for "Pietenpol speed". The whole assembly took about two hours to build using simple tools (tin snips, hobby style 18" bench top break, vise, drill, straight edge, belt sander, dremel tool and the like...). I built it to the size and shape that looked appropriate for the job so I measured nothing. My intention is to hang this on the wing jury strut when I complete my Piet project as a decorative air speed indicator, while the pitot tube airspeed indicator is on the panel. This is a fun little project. John E Wisconsin Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:17:31 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Looks from the pictures that the fitting just came unbonded from the tank, not a break of the glass used to make the tank. Correct? For one thing, looks like the metal was not bonded to the tank at all. Looks like the metal was not even roughed up properly for gluing it. The metal should be sanded with something like 60 grit sand paper then cleaned with MEK. Or is the hole in the tank just so big that there is nothing to glue to? Putting another four or five layers of glass on the tank in something like six or eight inch round pieces over the hole should fix that problem. Also, is the tank resin the same thing that was used to glue the metal on? Perhaps a vinyl ester or polyester resin tank that had the metal glued on with epoxy? Was the tank roughed up properly before glueing the metal on? My favorite thing to use is a wire wheel on a drill. That does a much better job than sand paper does. Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Ruse Sent: April 7, 2008 12:34 AM To: Pietenpol List Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders First I guess I should state that I am a non-builder owner. I bought my GN-1 3 years ago, and have flown it around 300hrs. It has about 500hrs total time, and has been a great plane. I took a friend up for a brief flight this evening, and when we landed I started removing all of my fuel lines and fittings, I intend to replace the rubber lines with stainless braided lines. My fuel tank is a fiberglass 18.3 gallon tank in the nose. I was pulling the fuel line off the nipple on the fuel valve at the bottom of the tank, and the entire fuel valve, strainer, and all fittings broke right off the bottom of the tank! This left the ~3/8" hole in the bottom of the tank wide open, which poured some fuel into the cockpit until I was able to stick my finger in the hole. I was working through an inspection hole on the side of the fuse directly behind the firewall. There were at least 12 gallons of fuel in the tank, which we had to empty using a coffee can, one can at a time. Luckily I had a friend there with me, I would've been in trouble if I had been working alone like I usually am. As you can imagine, this situation in itself created a fire hazard in the hangar. I was not using excessive force on the fuel line, a moderate kick by the passenger would've had the same effect. It would've resulting in immediate engine failure, a forced landing, and the emptying of the fuel tank into the cockpit! A very, very bad situation! That is something for builders to take note of, make sure your fuel fittings are very, very sturdy! I was replacing the rubber fuel lines with stainless braided lines to increase the strength of the whole system, little did I know that the fuel tank fitting probably had less than 10% of the strength of the rubber fuel lines that were installed. Attached are three pictures of the broken fitting, as well as one picture of the fitting I had taken several weeks ago to help me decide what I needed to do to change the valve and hoses. As you can see, the fitting and strainer were held to the tank only by a large glob of fiberglass resin. There was no fiber in this glob, so the mechanical bond to the tank was relatively weak. The "blob" was also placed on the tank after the tank had cured, so the resins were not actually mixed, the blob was just "stuck" on the cured tank. This was the only mechanical bond between the tank fitting and the tank. Now, I need to determine what to do to get the plane airworthy. I can build another tank, or I could try to determine a way to attach my new fuel valve to the old tank. Of course, my primary concern is being able to attach the valve in a very secure manner. I believe replacing the tank would legally require a new restricted fly-off period by the local FSDO as it is a major change. I belive replacing the the existing fuel valve would not require a new fly-off period. Any tips anyone can give me on a good method to secure a new valve to the existing tank would be greatly appreciated. I fly this plane a lot, and flying season is here so I hate to have it down, but repairing it properly and safely is my primary concern. I would like the new valve to be mounted to the tank using a method that is strong enough that it would damage the tank before the fitting would just fall off like this. I will remove the tank this week and post a few pictures. Thanks for any suggestions or input! Steve Ruse Norman, OK ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:51:25 AM PST US From: John Egan Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: what kind of harley wheels? - H-D Sportster Hello Tom, I've attached my information and photos regarding the Harley-Davidson rims and spokes I used to build my Piet wheels. My disclaimer: This project is not complete and the wheels have not been flown off or landed on, so no testing or experience has occurred. I bought the rims and spokes from "Doc's" motorcycle shop in Waterbury, Conn., and I referanced the Doc's part numbers below. I do not know if these are "Harley" numbers as well. I believe Doc's in on-line. Rims: Doc's part no: 15-944 250x19 40 hole, drop center steel $64.99 each I was told at Doc's that this is a front rim for a Harley Davidson - Sportster model Spokes: Doc's part no: TR490892 Chrome spoke set $39.95 each set the spokes are about 0.090" in diameter and fit the rims, however I do not know if the spoke are used on a Sportster. I bought the spokes to fit my hub/rim combination. Photos attached. john e. wisconsin ----- Original Message ---- From: "tmbrant1@netzero.com" Sent: Saturday, April 5, 2008 10:36:09 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: what kind of harley wheels? For those of you who've used the late model harley rims, which model bike are they from - any late model? Thanks, Tom B. _____________________________________________________________ Click here for a free search to find an interior design school near you. http://thirdpartyoffers.netzero.net/TGL2211/fc/Ioyw6ijngK3N6tBMTystjojQo0SvMIPLOvbJlPOPX6PnUl9zqYoqFo/ You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. http://tc.deals.yahoo.com/tc/blockbuster/text5.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:10:20 AM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders With a properly prepared fuel tank surface and a properly prepared aluminum piece you should be able to use just epoxy to stick them together. and it should break the tank before the bond separated. Mixing glass in the resin does you no good at all in this application Brian Kraut Engineering Alternatives, Inc. www.engalt.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Steve Ruse Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders The plane has never had autogas in it. Avgas only. I believe the problem here is that fiberglass resin was used as an adhesive or "glue", with no fiber. It is my understanding that resin is not intended for this purpose, and so the mechanical connection to the tank was poor. With sloshing compounds like POR15, how much concern is there with the compound coming loose, even 20 years down the road? I've head of this happening...of course once the compound is loose, it can clog the fuel system. What is the life expectancy of POR15? Who here is using a fiberglass tank? Do you have any pictures showing how you attached your fuel tank fitting? I like the idea of putting aluminum bracing inside the tank, perhaps with rivnuts or some other permanent fasteners insde the tank in a 3" or so radius. Of course I'll have to locate a magician who can make these components appear inside the tank, or use straps as Gary suggested. That would be a very strong connection to the tank. Using a J3 tank had crossed my mind, but my current tank holds 18 gallons, I would like to not reduce my range at all. I have a 2.5hr range currently, but I consider about 3 gallons in this tank unusable due to its height above the carburetor (not enough head pressure to meet the carb specs). Also, I intend to put a cable operated remote fuel shut off in the cockpit, that was part of my reason for doing messing with the whole fuel system. With the original installation I couldn't reach the fuel valve from the cockpit, and the original fuel valve was too stiff to be cable operated. I bought a new valve that should work well with a cable operator. Thanks for the input so far, I really appreciate you builders helping out a lowly non-builder. Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting Michael Silvius : > If the tank is not weak elsewhere, I would clean it thoroughly, > repair appropriately with plenty of fiberglass and then slosh the > tank with POR15 to prevent the ethanol blends form affecting it > further. I believe the ethanol is a likely cause of your break. > Others have fixed the problem with the POR15 tank sealer. > > Michael ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:20:20 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Steve: I am not a fiberglass expert by any means but I do have the assistance of a son who is. He helped me in all stages of this fiberglass tank project which is detailed in nauseating detail on the link below. When you get WAY to the bottom you will see the finger strainers in their sumps. These screw into brass fittings that look a little like a top hat with the brim inside the tank. I'm not sure how you would do this now unless you were willing to split your tank again so you could get you hands inside. http://www.eaa1344.com/Projects/Stinemetze/wing_center_section.htm Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS >Who here is using a fiberglass tank? Do you have any pictures showing >how you attached your fuel tank fitting? ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:34:30 AM PST US From: BYD@att.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: This is not a Pietenpol but... In 2001, just after the first rumors about the new Sport Pilot Rule, a group of Pietenpol builders in Italy got to thinking that the Piet would make a great LSA. They decided to modernize the design and out of respect to Bernard named the line Sport Campers just reflecting the original origin out of respect. With the Sport Camper family of aircraft it is possible to choose between three different aerodynamic layouts: the low wing "LoCamp"- the parasol wing "HiCamp" - the biplane "BiCamp". The aircraft may look romantic, but under the skin they are modern state of the art machines. All parts are CAD designed and produced by CNC/laser cutting equipment to exacting tolerances and perfect finish. www.aerolab.it ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:41:05 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Thanks Tom, That is how I THOUGHT my tank was built, with some type of "top hat" threaded device built into the tank, secured to the tank by layers of glass on top and bottom of the "top hat" brim. That is how it should have been done, at least in my opinion. Thanks for the pictures. Do you know where the threaded brass "top hat" fitting came from? My tank had the same finger strainer, but the strainer was just stuck to the tank, there was no good mechanical bond. Thanks, Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting TOM STINEMETZE : > Steve: > > I am not a fiberglass expert by any means but I do have the > assistance of a son who is. He helped me in all stages of this > fiberglass tank project which is detailed in nauseating detail on > the link below. When you get WAY to the bottom you will see the > finger strainers in their sumps. These screw into brass fittings > that look a little like a top hat with the brim inside the tank. > I'm not sure how you would do this now unless you were willing to > split your tank again so you could get you hands inside. > http://www.eaa1344.com/Projects/Stinemetze/wing_center_section.htm > Tom Stinemetze > McPherson, KS > > >> Who here is using a fiberglass tank? Do you have any pictures showing >> how you attached your fuel tank fitting? > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:17 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Steve: I got my finger strainers and the associated fittings from Aircraft Spruce. I just did a quick search on their site but could not find it in time to keep my boss from catching me on the web. Tom S. > Do you know where the threaded brass "top hat" fitting came from? ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:13:57 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? Michael Silvius wrote: > Yes But the Spar on the D-11 is a bear to build with its built in washout. [etc.] > I wasn't thinking of using the wing itself, just considering that we know the spar is strong enough because it already works. Now straighten it out end-to-end, remove the washout, change the airfoil, etc. That is, just use the D-11 wing as a model to make a self-supporting Piet wing. I'd have to make two, because the only way I could be sure it was strong enough is to break the first one. No doubt a decent engineer could just run the numbers. As for the inconvenience of a one-piece wing, I was seriously thinking of making my Piet wing one piece just to avoid the weight of the fittings. But if that doesn't bother you, no doubt the Jodel-style wing could be subdivided as needed. > I would call it an Air-sportster instead of an Aircamper and leave the > Pietenpol part off in order not to offend the purists. Fair enough. Owen ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:14:36 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: This is not a Pietenpol but... Yes they look nice and the website is very slick but now you are in to a kit. And you are thusly paying for someone else to do your work for you. The whole appeal of the Pietenpol or for that matter the Flybaby is that you build it from plans and raw materials and there is a real rustic simplicity to them. It is about as economical as you can get in a real aircraft. I would not be surprised to see you in for 50 thou $ by the time you are done in on of them slick Italian kits. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: > In 2001, just after the first rumors about the new Sport Pilot Rule, a group of Pietenpol builders in Italy got to thinking that the Piet would make a great LSA. They decided to "modernize" the design and out of respect to Bernard named the line "Sport Campers" just reflecting the original origin out of respect. > > With the Sport Camper family of aircraft it is possible to choose between three different aerodynamic layouts: the low wing "LoCamp"- the parasol wing "HiCamp" - the biplane "BiCamp". The aircraft may look romantic, but under the skin they are modern state of the art machines. All parts are CAD designed and produced by CNC/laser cutting equipment to exacting tolerances and perfect finish. > > www.aerolab.it ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:17:11 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? Gary Boothe wrote: > Thank you for the consideration of our tender feelings! For those who may > not have seen this, here is a link to the Spacewalker II: > http://www.me.mtu.edu/~jaricher/flying/warner_airplane_info.pdf. I have given the Spacewalker II serious thought, but it has two drawbacks for me: They don't sell plans, just the kit. And the plane is not LSA. They have been promising an LSA version for two years or more, but it hasn't shown up yet, at least on the website. Now, if I could find out how that wing is built, it might solve the problem of how to build the un-Piet. Owen ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:21 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie question I personally like Wicks Aircraft supply, out of ILL better for my wood orders. I am building a Jungster 1 all wood bipe, and have found wicks' wood quality, and clean cutting to be better than A.S.S. Shad --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:12:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... From: "BYD" Michael, You are absolutey right! Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175317#175317 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:15:08 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders Steve, another way to mount the valve may be with the "Rubber Tank Grommet" that California Power Systems sells. They advertise it as "snap-in fuel compatible rubber grommet for blind sealing of valves or fittings in fuel tanks." "Requires 33/64" access hole in tank." www.800-airwolf.come or 510-357-2403. Good Luck and keep us posted Gene in Tennessee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 4/5/2008 7:53 AM ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 01:11:27 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... From: "bhassel" Am I missing something or is there more to the web page than the picture. I could find a links that would give any detail. It looks like it has flaps. I love the low wing approach. Some how it looks even more 30's - ish than the parasol. hmmm.... Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175324#175324 ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 01:20:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... From: "BYD" Should be hot-links along the bottom like Products and Events. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175326#175326 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:28:56 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Is this a Pietenpol 2? From: "bhassel" Top, bottom or both the question seems to keep coming up airfoil. Between the Warner and the Italian version in the other link the lower winged Piet has some real eye appeal. A little stretched, bigger tail, different airfoil, did anyone say flaps (oh that was me sorry - just indigestion). Fun, fun, fun! Bob Santa Fe, NM Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175330#175330 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:57:47 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: This is not a Pietenpol but... From: "bhassel" Thanks - it looks like the color of the links was playing tricks on my old eyes. Couldn't see the links at all. Bob Santa Fe Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=175335#175335 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Antique Altimeters From: "Bill Church" If you're in the market for an antique altimeter, this seller has three different ones available: http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZaircapinst Starting bid is $300 for each. Auction ends in less than 24 hours, and so far no bids. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:48 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie question Shad, Saw your post on building a Jungster 1. Nice small Biplane. How big a person can fit in the cockpit? I like it's looks. Just pondering project #3. Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie question I personally like Wicks Aircraft supply, out of ILL better for my wood orders. I am building a Jungster 1 all wood bipe, and have found wicks' wood quality, and clean cutting to be better than A.S.S. Shad ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:54 PM PST US From: del magsam Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Bad news - broken fuel tank fitting & warning to builders I wouldn't use that tank anymore if it were me.....On william wynns web page he found a tank where they had used webbing from a lawn chair or something...not saying that is what this is, but there is no way of knowing what went into this tank. Del If the tank is not weak elsewhere, I would clean it thoroughly, repair appropriately with plenty of fiberglass and then slosh the tank with POR15 to prevent the ethanol blends form affecting it further. I believe the ethanol is a likely cause of your break. Others have fixed the problem with the POR15 tank sealer. Michael Del-New Richmond, Wi "farmerdel@rocketmail.com" --------------------------------- You rock. That's why Blockbuster's offering you one month of Blockbuster Total Access, No Cost. ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 06:39:15 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jungster 1 Walt, My Dad inherited a Jungster 1 project about 20 years ago. He sold it before completion, but the original builder/pilot was 6'4" and building the plane for mega aerobatics. Not only was he comfortable, he had purchased a sliding canopy for the project, under which he fit well in the mock up. Sorry, Pieters, now back to old & slow. Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Tail group awaiting hinges, working on longerons (6 ribs down.) Do not archive. ________________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of walt evans Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie question Shad, Saw your post on building a Jungster 1. Nice small Biplane. How big a person can fit in the cockpit? I like it's looks. Just pondering project #3. Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" ----- Original Message ----- From: shad bell Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Newbie question I personally like Wicks Aircraft supply, out of ILL better for my wood orders. I am building a Jungster 1 all wood bipe, and have found wicks' wood quality, and clean cutting to be better than A.S.S. Shad href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 07:23:04 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hickory Thank you, Gary A. Boothe CALPLY Sales Manager Architectural Products Division gboothe@calply.com Cell: (510) 760-0805 E-fax:(510) 880-5945 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:13 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Hickory Sorry, List. That was a mis-que. Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, Working on fuse, (6 ribs down...) Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 7:20 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Hickory Thank you, Gary A. Boothe CALPLY Sales Manager Architectural Products Division gboothe@calply.com Cell: (510) 760-0805 E-fax:(510) 880-5945 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.