Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:12 AM - Re: Engine choices (BScott116@aol.com)
2. 04:51 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Phillips, Jack)
3. 04:51 AM - Re: Engine choices (Ryan Mueller)
4. 05:03 AM - Bingelis books 2 for 1 @ EAA (Ryan Mueller)
5. 07:21 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gene Hubbard)
6. 08:10 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points--THANKS (Tim Willis)
7. 11:31 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gary Boothe)
8. 11:49 AM - Cubs and Champs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
9. 11:56 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Phillips, Jack)
10. 12:01 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Tim Willis)
11. 12:16 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Robert Gow)
12. 12:50 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gene Rambo)
13. 02:42 PM - Re: Speaking of an electric start (walt evans)
14. 03:41 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Owen Davies)
15. 03:53 PM - Re: Speaking of an electric start (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
16. 11:42 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choices |
Log onto the Dawn Patrol web site. They (8?) are all flying WWI replicas
with VWs. Mostly make about 60 HP but can be built up to 100HP. I built a
Half vw from Great Plains and it really roars. All new parts!
In a message dated 4/10/2008 12:50:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
silvius@gwi.net writes:
I know that the general advice is against it, however I know VW conversions
with the redrive fly on the CH701 and CH601. I am also aware of a Pipper Cub
in Brazil that has flown successfully on a VW.
it is experimental aviation after all.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: _Milt Atkinson_ (mailto:miltatkinson@verizon.net)
Has anyone considered or accomplished the use of a VW engine?
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016)
Message 2
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| Subject: | Passenger seatbelt attach points |
I attached my front seatbelts with a AN5 bolt directly through the ash
cross-member (and the floorboard, and the steel strap beneath that which
links the two rear lift struts). I did not install shoulder harnesses
in my Pietenpol, but the front seat could easily use the rear cabane
struts as an attach point. Here are a couple of photos showing my
seatbelt attachments:
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM
STINEMETZE
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
> PASSENGER seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need
some help, please.
I would like to echo this request. It appears the only place to attach
the passenger seat belts would
depend on a glue joint in shear for strength - not a good thing.
Tom Stinemetze
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orsk - Portuguese
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Engine choices |
Oscar contributed an interesting article to the second quarter BPA Newsletter regarding
this exact issue. He uses the configuration of his Piet (long fuse, A65,
split axle gear, 16 gal fuel tank in the fuselage) and some basic W+B numbers
to illustrate that by using an Aerovee engine it should be quite possible.
To summarize, his A-65 weighs 170lbs dry; an Aerovee weighs 158 lbs. By adding
the battery/battery box/cables/etc forward of the firewall and moving the Aerovee
one inch farther forward it should balance out.
It should be feasible. Whether or not it's the ideal powerplant for a Piet is debatable,
but it should be doable. As I said, the full text is in the second quarter
Brodhead Pietenpol Association newsletter.
http://www.pietenpols.org/
Ryan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176118#176118
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| Subject: | Bingelis books 2 for 1 @ EAA |
Saw this in my inbox, and thought I'd pass it along. I received an EAA "ehotline"
email this morning, and in it was an advertisement for a two-for-one special
on the four Tony Bingelis books. For those that don't have them, it's a pretty
cheap way to pick them up (I had two, so I completed my set). You can order
at:
http://shop.eaa.org/html/bingelis_books.html?card_id
or call 1-800-564-6322. While supplies last, they note.
Ryan
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176124#176124
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points |
NX421GN has the lap belt attached through the ash cross piece and the
shoulder strap attached to the rear wing spar, exiting between the flop
panel and the center section. After I figured 20g stresses for the ash
cross piece, I mounted a steel doubler (rectangular tubing stitch welded
to a strip) below the floor--external to the fuselage--you can see it on
the outside, to bear on the longerons and absorb the stress. At first I
thought it would be too ugly, but after it's painted, you can barely see it.
Gene Hubbard
Tim Willis wrote:
>
>Many months back I asked about seatbelt attach points and shoulder harness attach
points. I got excellent answers on 3 out of 4-- everything except the PASSENGER
seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need some help,
please.
>
>Seatbelt attach points for the passenger are problematic to me. Between a) having
nearby only skinny little sticks-- both those making diagonals near the control
assembly, and those holding up the passenger seat; and b) needing to accommodate
room for my overlarge feet, there is neither much existing strength
for a high-G seatbelt load, nor much room for added structure.
>
>I will soon be making some rearrangements in the passenger seatback to give myself
more shin room, so I would like to solve the passenger seatbelt attach points
at the same time.
>
>I am thinking of incorporating cables to the tailpost area, to transfer the load,
as many have done with the pilot's seatbelt attachments. But in a crash,
what keeps the more proximate steel fittings from popping loose from the floor,
the seatback supports, or whatever? Obviously, I am looking for strength without
much added weight, and it has to be slim, too, because, well, I am not.
>
>Thanks,
>Tim in central TX
>
>
>
>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points--THANKS |
Greg, Jack, Ken, and Gene,
Thanks for the excellent responses. I now know how I'll do it. Great.
Tim in central TX
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
>From: gcardinal <gcardinal@comcast.net>
>Sent: Apr 10, 2008 11:00 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
>
>
>On NX18235 the passenger lap belt is anchored to the ash cross piece at the
>bottom of the seatback. The shoulder harness is anchored to a lug that is
>welded to the right rear cabane strut.
>
>Greg Cardinal
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
>To: "matronics piet site" <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:52 PM
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
>
>
>> <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
>>
>> Many months back I asked about seatbelt attach points and shoulder harness
>> attach points. I got excellent answers on 3 out of 4-- everything except
>> the PASSENGER seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need
>> some help, please.
>>
>> Seatbelt attach points for the passenger are problematic to me. Between
>> a) having nearby only skinny little sticks-- both those making diagonals
>> near the control assembly, and those holding up the passenger seat; and b)
>> needing to accommodate room for my overlarge feet, there is neither much
>> existing strength for a high-G seatbelt load, nor much room for added
>> structure.
>>
>> I will soon be making some rearrangements in the passenger seatback to
>> give myself more shin room, so I would like to solve the passenger
>> seatbelt attach points at the same time.
>>
>> I am thinking of incorporating cables to the tailpost area, to transfer
>> the load, as many have done with the pilot's seatbelt attachments. But in
>> a crash, what keeps the more proximate steel fittings from popping loose
>> from the floor, the seatback supports, or whatever? Obviously, I am
>> looking for strength without much added weight, and it has to be slim,
>> too, because, well, I am not.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tim in central TX
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Passenger seatbelt attach points |
I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the
protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very
good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but....
Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't
want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall
out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a
crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode
internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate.
Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone
educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail Group awaiting hinges,
working on fuse
(6 ribs down...)
>
Message 8
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Gary,
I liken the Pietenpol to airplanes like Cubs and Champs and those plus
many more like Luscombes,
Taylorcrafts and other 1940's era airplanes had simple lap belts. The
attach points shown by
several members are excellent anchor points and this really shouldn't be
overthought.
I purchased my lap belts from JC Whitney and they have the airline style
lever-to-release opening
style. Your worst enemy during a crash is probably banging your head
on your instrument panel,
thus the cockpit combing you see on many old open cockpit airplanes.
You don't have shoulder
harnesses ? You do what they did in the old days--you fly with one
hand and before 'landing'
you straight arm the panel with the other. Sounds crude but it beats
getting smashed up in the
head. Other things like fuel tank fires and your wings collapsing on
you are things I'd be
more concerned with. I've seen some really whimpy diagonal tube
bracing holding the wings
in position in lieu of the X brace on the right side of the passenger
compartment between the
front cabanes and rear cabanes that probably would let the wing go
forward quickly in a crash,
trapping the front passenger or worse yet the X cables just behind his
head cutting him up good.
Anyway--my two cents.
Mike C.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Passenger seatbelt attach points |
Buy a copy of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane Builder". In fact,
every Pietenpol builder should own all four Bingelis Books, as they are
"The Bible" for airplane building. 95% of the questions on this list
can be answered by reading one of those books.
To quote from "The Sportplane Builder" : "...Air Force and Navy tests
have proven that a 20-G harness will eliminate 90 percent of aircraft
accident injuries."
So if you weigh 200 lbs, the attach points need to be capable of
withstanding a 4,000 lb load. They can bend under such a load but they
should not break.
EAA is currently running a "Buy 1 get 1 free sale on the Bingleis books,
which means you can basically get the whole set for about $40.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Boothe
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
<gboothe5@comcast.net>
I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all
the
protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some
very
good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but....
Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't
want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to
fall
out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in
a
crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would
explode
internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate.
Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can
someone
educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail Group awaiting hinges,
working on fuse
(6 ribs down...)
>
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
Message 10
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| Subject: | Passenger seatbelt attach points |
Good question.
While someone no doubt has the test result G-numbers, the idea is that at the very
instant of impact with an unyielding object such as a tree or the ground,
for an instant, you may experience more than 10 Gs. I believe that two football
players colliding in a head-on tackle do this all the time, for instance.
You are right that 20 Gs sustained for even a few seconds almost certainly would
kill those in the aircraft.
As you know, in a crash the loose body continues its former vector as the airframe
stops, and the strain transfers to the seatbelt and its attachments, and ultimately
to some of the airframe, portions of which may be destroyed by other
forces, as well. Think car crash dummies, seat-belt tests, etc.
We are seeking to prevent the seatbelt and steel fittings from transfering full
forces to single glue joints, the thin floor, etc., that might immediately tear
out or shear. There comes a point where the airframe can only handle so much,
and beefing up the structure is useless. Moreover, planes are bulit to fly,
not to crash, and excess weight is a major negative. Thus what we use has
to be small, light, and effective.
In general, we are trying to get the forces to transfer to compression of the longerons,
which are braced, trussed, gusseted, and very strong in compression.
BTW, I have only heard of one fellow looping a Piet, and no one rolling one. If
others have.........., they ain't tellin' ;)
Tim in central TX
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
>Sent: Apr 11, 2008 1:25 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
>
>
>I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the
>protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very
>good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but....
>
>Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't
>want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall
>out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a
>crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode
>internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate.
>
>Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone
>educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point?
>
>Gary Boothe
>Cool, CA
>WW Conversion 90% done,
>Tail Group awaiting hinges,
>
>working on fuse
>
>(6 ribs down...)
>
>>
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Passenger seatbelt attach points |
Actually all newly certified airliners have 16G seats with the corresponding
increase in floor strength because people can and do survive those kinds of
momentary loads providing they are restrained properly and don't hit their
heads on anything hard.
Bob
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary
Boothe
Sent: April 11, 2008 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points
I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the
protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very
good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but....
Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't
want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall
out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a
crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode
internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate.
Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone
educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point?
Gary Boothe
Cool, CA
WW Conversion 90% done,
Tail Group awaiting hinges,
working on fuse
(6 ribs down...)
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points |
I have to agree with Mike C on this one. We all have flown Cubs and
Champs and thought nothing of the fact that they have no shoulder
harnesses. All due respect to those that have done so, but I am scared
of attaching a shoulder harness to the cabanes, especially at the top.
In any accident, it is a high probability that a wing is going to hit
SOMETHING, and I can see the wing wrenching backward and strangling
someone with the cable/harness.
I am currently wrestling with the lap belt attachment for the front
seat. The best idea I can come up with is a steel strap bent 90 degrees
and bolted through the ash cross piece and floorboard. With a large
washer on it, you are not going to pull it out. I plan to have the
steel strap bolted just outboard of the rear seat leg, then run up the
leg with a bolt through it and the leg. Up at the top, I will have the
seat belt itself attached to the strap (with a doubler) This will keep
the belt out of the pilot's feet. This is the best idea I can come up
with, but always willing to listen to others.
Gene (back from Sun n Fun and dying to go to the hangar and get back on
the Piet)
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Speaking of an electric start |
Ken,
thanks for the reply.
I would appreciate it if you would pass along infro , if you found it!
Walt Evans
NX140DL
"If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it"
----- Original Message -----
From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start
Walt,
Yes. If you search the air boat industry there is a few guys I have
spoken to who have made the conversation using automotive parts and a
flywheel drilled to match the crank shaft. I will search for the
information but I do remember speaking with some air boat dealers in
Florida who can lead you in the right direction for parts.
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
Did anyone find a way to add a starter to an A-65?
Walt Evans
NX140DL
"If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it"
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points |
Among other comments, Gene Rambo wrote:
> We all have flown Cubs and Champs and thought nothing of the fact that
> they have no shoulder harnesses.
Do note that the son of a friend died in a Cub when a shoulder harness
would have saved him. Harnesses aren't optional, IMHO, even in a
low-and-slow airplane. How to put one in a Piet is another issue, and
it's one worth solving. If anyone thinks of a way to do it that's safe
without being unbearably ugly, I'd love to hear about it. Unfortunately,
all I can think of is a steel framework like a turnover structure behind
each pit. Easy to do on the steel-frame version I'll be building, but
not pretty.
Owen
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Speaking of an electric start |
Walt,
Wow..I found what I had emntioned to you. It was an item auctioned on ebay and
I have downloaded the information. Seems pretty straight forward! Let us know
the outcome as many are also interested .
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
Ken,
thanks for the reply.
I would appreciate it if you would pass along infro , if you found it!
Walt Evans
NX140DL
"If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it"
----- Original Message -----
From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start
Walt,
Yes. If you search the air boat industry there is a few guys I have spoken to
who have made the conversation using automotive parts and a flywheel drilled
to match the crank shaft. I will search for the information but I do remember
speaking with some air boat dealers in Florida who can lead you in the right direction
for parts.
Ken Heide
Fargo, ND
walt evans <waltdak@verizon.net> wrote:
Did anyone find a way to add a starter to an A-65?
Walt Evans
NX140DL
"If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it"
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
__________________________________________________
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points |
And don't forget it has to attach at or preferably above shoulder level.
If below it will compress the spine thus doing more harm than good.
Clif
If anyone thinks of a way to do it that's safe
> without being unbearably ugly, I'd love to hear about it. Unfortunately,
> all I can think of is a steel framework like a turnover structure behind
> each pit. Easy to do on the steel-frame version I'll be building, but not
> pretty.
>
> Owen
>
>
> --
> Release Date: 4/11/2008 4:59 PM
>
>
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