---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 04/11/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:12 AM - Re: Engine choices (BScott116@aol.com) 2. 04:51 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Phillips, Jack) 3. 04:51 AM - Re: Engine choices (Ryan Mueller) 4. 05:03 AM - Bingelis books 2 for 1 @ EAA (Ryan Mueller) 5. 07:21 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gene Hubbard) 6. 08:10 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points--THANKS (Tim Willis) 7. 11:31 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gary Boothe) 8. 11:49 AM - Cubs and Champs (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 9. 11:56 AM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Phillips, Jack) 10. 12:01 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Tim Willis) 11. 12:16 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Robert Gow) 12. 12:50 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Gene Rambo) 13. 02:42 PM - Re: Speaking of an electric start (walt evans) 14. 03:41 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Owen Davies) 15. 03:53 PM - Re: Speaking of an electric start (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 16. 11:42 PM - Re: Passenger seatbelt attach points (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:12:40 AM PST US From: BScott116@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Engine choices Log onto the Dawn Patrol web site. They (8?) are all flying WWI replicas with VWs. Mostly make about 60 HP but can be built up to 100HP. I built a Half vw from Great Plains and it really roars. All new parts! In a message dated 4/10/2008 12:50:37 P.M. Central Daylight Time, silvius@gwi.net writes: I know that the general advice is against it, however I know VW conversions with the redrive fly on the CH701 and CH601. I am also aware of a Pipper Cub in Brazil that has flown successfully on a VW. it is experimental aviation after all. Michael ----- Original Message ----- From: _Milt Atkinson_ (mailto:miltatkinson@verizon.net) Has anyone considered or accomplished the use of a VW engine? (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://travel.aol.com/travel-guide/united-states?ncid=aoltrv00030000000016) ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:46 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points From: "Phillips, Jack" I attached my front seatbelts with a AN5 bolt directly through the ash cross-member (and the floorboard, and the steel strap beneath that which links the two rear lift struts). I did not install shoulder harnesses in my Pietenpol, but the front seat could easily use the rear cabane struts as an attach point. Here are a couple of photos showing my seatbelt attachments: Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM STINEMETZE Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 5:37 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points > PASSENGER seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need some help, please. I would like to echo this request. It appears the only place to attach the passenger seat belts would depend on a glue joint in shear for strength - not a good thing. Tom Stinemetze _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:51:55 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Engine choices From: "Ryan Mueller" Oscar contributed an interesting article to the second quarter BPA Newsletter regarding this exact issue. He uses the configuration of his Piet (long fuse, A65, split axle gear, 16 gal fuel tank in the fuselage) and some basic W+B numbers to illustrate that by using an Aerovee engine it should be quite possible. To summarize, his A-65 weighs 170lbs dry; an Aerovee weighs 158 lbs. By adding the battery/battery box/cables/etc forward of the firewall and moving the Aerovee one inch farther forward it should balance out. It should be feasible. Whether or not it's the ideal powerplant for a Piet is debatable, but it should be doable. As I said, the full text is in the second quarter Brodhead Pietenpol Association newsletter. http://www.pietenpols.org/ Ryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176118#176118 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:03:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Bingelis books 2 for 1 @ EAA From: "Ryan Mueller" Saw this in my inbox, and thought I'd pass it along. I received an EAA "ehotline" email this morning, and in it was an advertisement for a two-for-one special on the four Tony Bingelis books. For those that don't have them, it's a pretty cheap way to pick them up (I had two, so I completed my set). You can order at: http://shop.eaa.org/html/bingelis_books.html?card_id or call 1-800-564-6322. While supplies last, they note. Ryan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176124#176124 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:27 AM PST US From: Gene Hubbard Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points NX421GN has the lap belt attached through the ash cross piece and the shoulder strap attached to the rear wing spar, exiting between the flop panel and the center section. After I figured 20g stresses for the ash cross piece, I mounted a steel doubler (rectangular tubing stitch welded to a strip) below the floor--external to the fuselage--you can see it on the outside, to bear on the longerons and absorb the stress. At first I thought it would be too ugly, but after it's painted, you can barely see it. Gene Hubbard Tim Willis wrote: > >Many months back I asked about seatbelt attach points and shoulder harness attach points. I got excellent answers on 3 out of 4-- everything except the PASSENGER seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need some help, please. > >Seatbelt attach points for the passenger are problematic to me. Between a) having nearby only skinny little sticks-- both those making diagonals near the control assembly, and those holding up the passenger seat; and b) needing to accommodate room for my overlarge feet, there is neither much existing strength for a high-G seatbelt load, nor much room for added structure. > >I will soon be making some rearrangements in the passenger seatback to give myself more shin room, so I would like to solve the passenger seatbelt attach points at the same time. > >I am thinking of incorporating cables to the tailpost area, to transfer the load, as many have done with the pilot's seatbelt attachments. But in a crash, what keeps the more proximate steel fittings from popping loose from the floor, the seatback supports, or whatever? Obviously, I am looking for strength without much added weight, and it has to be slim, too, because, well, I am not. > >Thanks, >Tim in central TX > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:19 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points--THANKS Greg, Jack, Ken, and Gene, Thanks for the excellent responses. I now know how I'll do it. Great. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: gcardinal >Sent: Apr 10, 2008 11:00 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points > > >On NX18235 the passenger lap belt is anchored to the ash cross piece at the >bottom of the seatback. The shoulder harness is anchored to a lug that is >welded to the right rear cabane strut. > >Greg Cardinal > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim Willis" >To: "matronics piet site" >Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 2:52 PM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points > > >> >> >> Many months back I asked about seatbelt attach points and shoulder harness >> attach points. I got excellent answers on 3 out of 4-- everything except >> the PASSENGER seat belt attach points. I got no answers for that. I need >> some help, please. >> >> Seatbelt attach points for the passenger are problematic to me. Between >> a) having nearby only skinny little sticks-- both those making diagonals >> near the control assembly, and those holding up the passenger seat; and b) >> needing to accommodate room for my overlarge feet, there is neither much >> existing strength for a high-G seatbelt load, nor much room for added >> structure. >> >> I will soon be making some rearrangements in the passenger seatback to >> give myself more shin room, so I would like to solve the passenger >> seatbelt attach points at the same time. >> >> I am thinking of incorporating cables to the tailpost area, to transfer >> the load, as many have done with the pilot's seatbelt attachments. But in >> a crash, what keeps the more proximate steel fittings from popping loose >> from the floor, the seatback supports, or whatever? Obviously, I am >> looking for strength without much added weight, and it has to be slim, >> too, because, well, I am not. >> >> Thanks, >> Tim in central TX >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:31:42 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but.... Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate. Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point? Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, working on fuse (6 ribs down...) > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 11:49:00 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cubs and Champs From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Gary, I liken the Pietenpol to airplanes like Cubs and Champs and those plus many more like Luscombes, Taylorcrafts and other 1940's era airplanes had simple lap belts. The attach points shown by several members are excellent anchor points and this really shouldn't be overthought. I purchased my lap belts from JC Whitney and they have the airline style lever-to-release opening style. Your worst enemy during a crash is probably banging your head on your instrument panel, thus the cockpit combing you see on many old open cockpit airplanes. You don't have shoulder harnesses ? You do what they did in the old days--you fly with one hand and before 'landing' you straight arm the panel with the other. Sounds crude but it beats getting smashed up in the head. Other things like fuel tank fires and your wings collapsing on you are things I'd be more concerned with. I've seen some really whimpy diagonal tube bracing holding the wings in position in lieu of the X brace on the right side of the passenger compartment between the front cabanes and rear cabanes that probably would let the wing go forward quickly in a crash, trapping the front passenger or worse yet the X cables just behind his head cutting him up good. Anyway--my two cents. Mike C. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:56:52 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points From: "Phillips, Jack" Buy a copy of Tony Bingelis' book "The Sportplane Builder". In fact, every Pietenpol builder should own all four Bingelis Books, as they are "The Bible" for airplane building. 95% of the questions on this list can be answered by reading one of those books. To quote from "The Sportplane Builder" : "...Air Force and Navy tests have proven that a 20-G harness will eliminate 90 percent of aircraft accident injuries." So if you weigh 200 lbs, the attach points need to be capable of withstanding a 4,000 lb load. They can bend under such a load but they should not break. EAA is currently running a "Buy 1 get 1 free sale on the Bingleis books, which means you can basically get the whole set for about $40. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: Friday, April 11, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but.... Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate. Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point? Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, working on fuse (6 ribs down...) > _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:41 PM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points Good question. While someone no doubt has the test result G-numbers, the idea is that at the very instant of impact with an unyielding object such as a tree or the ground, for an instant, you may experience more than 10 Gs. I believe that two football players colliding in a head-on tackle do this all the time, for instance. You are right that 20 Gs sustained for even a few seconds almost certainly would kill those in the aircraft. As you know, in a crash the loose body continues its former vector as the airframe stops, and the strain transfers to the seatbelt and its attachments, and ultimately to some of the airframe, portions of which may be destroyed by other forces, as well. Think car crash dummies, seat-belt tests, etc. We are seeking to prevent the seatbelt and steel fittings from transfering full forces to single glue joints, the thin floor, etc., that might immediately tear out or shear. There comes a point where the airframe can only handle so much, and beefing up the structure is useless. Moreover, planes are bulit to fly, not to crash, and excess weight is a major negative. Thus what we use has to be small, light, and effective. In general, we are trying to get the forces to transfer to compression of the longerons, which are braced, trussed, gusseted, and very strong in compression. BTW, I have only heard of one fellow looping a Piet, and no one rolling one. If others have.........., they ain't tellin' ;) Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Gary Boothe >Sent: Apr 11, 2008 1:25 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points > > >I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the >protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very >good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but.... > >Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't >want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall >out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a >crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode >internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate. > >Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone >educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point? > >Gary Boothe >Cool, CA >WW Conversion 90% done, >Tail Group awaiting hinges, > >working on fuse > >(6 ribs down...) > >> > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:03 PM PST US From: "Robert Gow" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points Actually all newly certified airliners have 16G seats with the corresponding increase in floor strength because people can and do survive those kinds of momentary loads providing they are restrained properly and don't hit their heads on anything hard. Bob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Gary Boothe Sent: April 11, 2008 2:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points I don't wish to appear cynical, and I certainly do wish to provide all the protection for the pilot (me) and any passengers, and certainly some very good advice on secure attach points has been provided, but.... Just how much security can we expect from our harnesses? Surely we don't want to get bucked out of the airplane in rough air, nor do we want to fall out in a poorly executed loop, but will our harness really protect us in a crash? Somebody mentioned 20 g's. I'm pretty sure our bodies would explode internally in 20 g's, plus the airframe itself would disintegrate. Thinking that the truth lies somewhere between here and there, can someone educate me on the thought process going into designing an attach point? Gary Boothe Cool, CA WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, working on fuse (6 ribs down...) > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:50:25 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points I have to agree with Mike C on this one. We all have flown Cubs and Champs and thought nothing of the fact that they have no shoulder harnesses. All due respect to those that have done so, but I am scared of attaching a shoulder harness to the cabanes, especially at the top. In any accident, it is a high probability that a wing is going to hit SOMETHING, and I can see the wing wrenching backward and strangling someone with the cable/harness. I am currently wrestling with the lap belt attachment for the front seat. The best idea I can come up with is a steel strap bent 90 degrees and bolted through the ash cross piece and floorboard. With a large washer on it, you are not going to pull it out. I plan to have the steel strap bolted just outboard of the rear seat leg, then run up the leg with a bolt through it and the leg. Up at the top, I will have the seat belt itself attached to the strap (with a doubler) This will keep the belt out of the pilot's feet. This is the best idea I can come up with, but always willing to listen to others. Gene (back from Sun n Fun and dying to go to the hangar and get back on the Piet) ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:42:39 PM PST US From: "walt evans" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start Ken, thanks for the reply. I would appreciate it if you would pass along infro , if you found it! Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start Walt, Yes. If you search the air boat industry there is a few guys I have spoken to who have made the conversation using automotive parts and a flywheel drilled to match the crank shaft. I will search for the information but I do remember speaking with some air boat dealers in Florida who can lead you in the right direction for parts. Ken Heide Fargo, ND walt evans wrote: Did anyone find a way to add a starter to an A-65? Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:07 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points Among other comments, Gene Rambo wrote: > We all have flown Cubs and Champs and thought nothing of the fact that > they have no shoulder harnesses. Do note that the son of a friend died in a Cub when a shoulder harness would have saved him. Harnesses aren't optional, IMHO, even in a low-and-slow airplane. How to put one in a Piet is another issue, and it's one worth solving. If anyone thinks of a way to do it that's safe without being unbearably ugly, I'd love to hear about it. Unfortunately, all I can think of is a steel framework like a turnover structure behind each pit. Easy to do on the steel-frame version I'll be building, but not pretty. Owen ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:51 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start Walt, Wow..I found what I had emntioned to you. It was an item auctioned on ebay and I have downloaded the information. Seems pretty straight forward! Let us know the outcome as many are also interested . Ken Heide Fargo, ND walt evans wrote: Ken, thanks for the reply. I would appreciate it if you would pass along infro , if you found it! Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2008 11:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Speaking of an electric start Walt, Yes. If you search the air boat industry there is a few guys I have spoken to who have made the conversation using automotive parts and a flywheel drilled to match the crank shaft. I will search for the information but I do remember speaking with some air boat dealers in Florida who can lead you in the right direction for parts. Ken Heide Fargo, ND walt evans wrote: Did anyone find a way to add a starter to an A-65? Walt Evans NX140DL "If you look for a reason not to,,,You'll find it" href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:42:45 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Passenger seatbelt attach points And don't forget it has to attach at or preferably above shoulder level. If below it will compress the spine thus doing more harm than good. Clif If anyone thinks of a way to do it that's safe > without being unbearably ugly, I'd love to hear about it. Unfortunately, > all I can think of is a steel framework like a turnover structure behind > each pit. Easy to do on the steel-frame version I'll be building, but not > pretty. > > Owen > > > -- > Release Date: 4/11/2008 4:59 PM > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.