---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/14/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 07:28 AM - Re: georgia piets anyone? (Barry Davis) 2. 11:06 AM - Re: Dumb wing spar mistake? (MikeD) 3. 11:33 AM - Re: Re: Dumb wing spar mistake? (Owen Davies) 4. 03:02 PM - Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (jimd) 5. 03:18 PM - Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (Gary Boothe) 6. 03:18 PM - Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (gcardinal) 7. 03:35 PM - Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (jimd) 8. 03:39 PM - Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (jimd) 9. 03:51 PM - Re: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (Gary Boothe) 10. 04:14 PM - Jim Markle (Milt Atkinson) 11. 04:31 PM - Re: Jim Markle (Gary Boothe) 12. 04:52 PM - Re: Jim Markle (Jim Markle) 13. 05:37 PM - Warner Aircraft Sun N' Fun (bhassel) 14. 07:56 PM - Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? (chase143) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 07:28:03 AM PST US From: "Barry Davis" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: georgia piets anyone? Big Piet Builders regular workday is Monday night in Carrollton. Contact me off list and I will give you directions. Barry Davis ----- Original Message ----- From: Gardiner Mason To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:23 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: georgia piets anyone? John , I am building a piet in Lagrange, Ga. I will be glad to have you visit if you like. It is an hour SW on I 85. Gardiner Mason. 706 594 3811 ----- Original Message ----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 3:31 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: georgia piets anyone? I am working in the greater Atlanta area next week for a few days and wanted to visit a Piet, anyone interested? Please advise Thanks John Recine NX895BP reserved In a message dated 4/10/2008 3:27:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, timothywillis@earthlink.net writes: The Piet has more drag than most, if not all of the planes flying VW engines. There is not enough HP left after the Piet's drag to lift a fully loaded Piet well, and the climb rate should be miserable. There has been enough recent discussion about safe loads and climbing rates, clearing trees and steeples, etc. in A-65 Piets on warm days. The few CH601s or the exceptional Cub with a VW engine are much heavier than the planes that usually have a VW engine, like a Flybaby or a Volksplane. Still, they have less drag than a Piet. Moreover, the usual planes with VW engines are single place. I don't think that the guys offering the CH601-701-801s recommend any VW engines for their planes. I have seen "never a VW" discussions in the Piet matronics archives. I've never seen anyone justify its use on a Piet. Lastly, I don't think any experienced aviator or builder would recommend using a VW on a Piet. That doesn't mean that someone hasn't tried it, though. And it might work OK on a single-place Scout with Riblett wings. You'd still have weight and balance problems, though, as pointed out. To me, the VW engine on a Piet sounds like a good way to end up as an FAA statistic one warm day. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Dave Abramson >Sent: Apr 10, 2008 12:58 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Engine choices > >Not enough weight..... > >DIT-VIT > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Milt Atkinson > Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2008 10:20 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Engine choices > > > Has anyone considered or accomplished the use of a VW engine? > > > > What are the pros and cons? > > > > Milt Atkinson > > (plans ordered . still e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ; ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:06:36 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dumb wing spar mistake? From: "MikeD" To me, if the three holes are acceptable where they are supposed to be, they should be acceptable where they are accidentally - since nothing actually fills the holes to replace the tensile properties, although fasteners could be argued to at least provide some support under compression when called upon to do so. Once you add doublers no worries IMHO. Mike D. -------- Piet-builder-who-hopes-to-be-flying-next-summer Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176773#176773 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:33:46 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Dumb wing spar mistake? MikeD wrote: > To me, if the three holes are acceptable where they are supposed to be, they should be acceptable where they are accidentally - since nothing actually fills the holes to replace the tensile properties, although fasteners could be argued to at least provide some support under compression when called upon to do so. Once you add doublers no worries IMHO. I agree with your result, but the way you get there bothers me. For one thing, it's not just three holes now, but six. That means interrupting twice as many of the load-carrying wood fibers and weakening the spar (in tension) twice as much as the designer allowed for. The doublers will take up the slack. After all, in an I-beam spar a single layer of 1/8 ply provides most of the strength. But let's be clear about what is going on here. One of us might have a project someday where it really does make a difference. Owen ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:02:30 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? From: "jimd" Hi, My aluminum center section leading edge had a bunch of masking tape all but baked on to it. In getting the tape off I scratched the aluminum, so I polished it out, and the spot went from alclad to mirror finish. Had an EAA tech counselor look at my project and one of his suggestions was polish out the whole thing as it would look good. I about have it done, it does look good. Behind the aluminum section is a big square thin wood sheet that covers the reserve fuel tank. Now here is my question(s). Does the center section have to be covered with fabric? All the Piets/GN-1's I could find pictures of have them covered, however the wood and aluminum look really slick, and it seems like you would have to cut the fabric to access the gas tank vs. removing about a hundred little screws. Anyone know of a Piet with the center section not covered? Suspect the aluminum leading edge would be fine. (Mine is .040 T2024). The wood bottom/top pieces are what I am wondering about. They are pretty thin plywood, and have a coat of varnish on them, but have to wonder if they are structurally strong enough as is, and what it would take to adequately protect them from UV. Seems like the looks, lighter weight, better access to the tank would make it a reasonable idea. That is if the woood could take it. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176813#176813 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:37 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? Jim, Here's a picture of Dick Navatril's center section - should answer your question. By the way, I think .040 aluminum is plenty heavy. .025 would probably be just fine. Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, Working on fuse, (7 ribs down...) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimd Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:00 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? Hi, My aluminum center section leading edge had a bunch of masking tape all but baked on to it. In getting the tape off I scratched the aluminum, so I polished it out, and the spot went from alclad to mirror finish. Had an EAA tech counselor look at my project and one of his suggestions was polish out the whole thing as it would look good. I about have it done, it does look good. Behind the aluminum section is a big square thin wood sheet that covers the reserve fuel tank. Now here is my question(s). Does the center section have to be covered with fabric? All the Piets/GN-1's I could find pictures of have them covered, however the wood and aluminum look really slick, and it seems like you would have to cut the fabric to access the gas tank vs. removing about a hundred little screws. Anyone know of a Piet with the center section not covered? Suspect the aluminum leading edge would be fine. (Mine is .040 T2024). The wood bottom/top pieces are what I am wondering about. They are pretty thin plywood, and have a coat of varnish on them, but have to wonder if they are structurally strong enough as is, and what it would take to adequately protect them from UV. Seems like the looks, lighter weight, better access to the tank would make it a reasonable idea. That is if the woood could take it. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176813#176813 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:18:44 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? Jim, The upper surface of the center section on NX18235 is plywood covering over the fuel tank. It is a removable panel for access to the fuel tank. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: "jimd" Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? > > Hi, > > My aluminum center section leading edge had a bunch of masking tape all > but baked on to it. In getting the tape off I scratched the aluminum, so I > polished it out, and the spot went from alclad to mirror finish. Had an > EAA tech counselor look at my project and one of his suggestions was > polish out the whole thing as it would look good. I about have it done, it > does look good. > > Behind the aluminum section is a big square thin wood sheet that covers > the reserve fuel tank. > > Now here is my question(s). > > Does the center section have to be covered with fabric? All the > Piets/GN-1's I could find pictures of have them covered, however the wood > and aluminum look really slick, and it seems like you would have to cut > the fabric to access the gas tank vs. removing about a hundred little > screws. > > Anyone know of a Piet with the center section not covered? Suspect the > aluminum leading edge would be fine. (Mine is .040 T2024). The wood > bottom/top pieces are what I am wondering about. They are pretty thin > plywood, and have a coat of varnish on them, but have to wonder if they > are structurally strong enough as is, and what it would take to adequately > protect them from UV. > > Seems like the looks, lighter weight, better access to the tank would make > it a reasonable idea. That is if the woood could take it. > > Jim > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176813#176813 > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:35:25 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? From: "jimd" Dick's plane looks like it is fabric covered ... only with fabric that looks like wood, much like the rest of the plane, so not shure about that one. To have a removable wood section of thin plywood.. did you have to do anything to beef it up? What about UV protection.. is it painted? Was hoping to keep the natural wood finish somehow. No doubt I should have asked first and polished the aluminum later.. will say it was far more work than I had anticipated. Thought about giving it a number of coats of the clear coat from the T-88 folks, would toughen it up, but not sure it can handle UV. Seen Piets with wood landing gear, wood exterior sides, wood floors, etc. but not wood finished center sections.. even though most of them were wood there. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176824#176824 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:39:10 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? From: "jimd" Then again it does look like it really is wood.. hmm. Is there any really good clear UV protecting polyurethanes or epoxies, or varnishes that can hold up to the weather.. assuming the wood is strong enough to handle it I would love to keep the looks of the aluminum/wood. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176825#176825 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:15 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? Dick would have to answer most of those questions, and I'm sure he will. Yes, his wings sorta look like wood, but they are fabric. But his center section and entire fuselage is all wood covered! If you can, check out the Feb edition of Sport Aviation. Gary -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of jimd Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:33 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? Dick's plane looks like it is fabric covered ... only with fabric that looks like wood, much like the rest of the plane, so not shure about that one. To have a removable wood section of thin plywood.. did you have to do anything to beef it up? What about UV protection.. is it painted? Was hoping to keep the natural wood finish somehow. No doubt I should have asked first and polished the aluminum later.. will say it was far more work than I had anticipated. Thought about giving it a number of coats of the clear coat from the T-88 folks, would toughen it up, but not sure it can handle UV. Seen Piets with wood landing gear, wood exterior sides, wood floors, etc. but not wood finished center sections.. even though most of them were wood there. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176824#176824 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 04:14:20 PM PST US From: "Milt Atkinson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jim Markle Is Jim Markle still on the list? Trying to contact him. Milt Atkinson ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 04:31:40 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Jim Markle Try: jim_markle@mindspring.com (jim_markle@...) Gary Boothe Cool, CA Pietenpol WW Conversion 90% done, Tail Group awaiting hinges, Working on fuse, (7 ribs down...) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Milt Atkinson Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 4:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Jim Markle Is Jim Markle still on the list? Trying to contact him. Milt Atkinson ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:36 PM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Jim Markle Yup, I'm still here...or somewhere! Been a bit busy working two jobs lately but I did get your voice message and will be in touch! And congrats on getting your Air Camper plans in the mail today! That's great! JM Is Jim Markle still on the list? Trying to contact him. Milt Atkinson http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:37:17 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Warner Aircraft Sun N' Fun From: "bhassel" There's a short link/video on AvWeb about the Warner LSA Convertible - Piet alike... http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1091-full.html#197650 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=176851#176851 ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:50 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Center wing question.. polished aluminum and wood OK? From: "chase143" Jim, Be aware, the alclad is the protective coating on the outside of aircraft aluminum, it needs to be primed to prevent corrosion. In building aluminum aircraft (RVs for instance) any scratches that go thru the alclad are generally concerning, and even if considered non-structural, should be treated and primed within a few weeks, otherwise the scratch will be susceptible to corrosion. Not a huge deal, but worth a quick shot of self etching primer. My 2 cents.... Steve C. 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