Today's Message Index:
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1. 06:39 AM - Re: GN-1 airfoil information (jimd)
2. 07:19 AM - wing rib brads (Ted White)
3. 07:25 AM - Re: wing rib brads (jimd)
4. 07:41 AM - Re: Re: GN-1 airfoil information (Bill Church)
5. 08:04 AM - Re: GN-1 airfoil information (jimd)
6. 09:09 AM - aircamper engine (Ted White)
7. 09:51 AM - Re: aircamper engine (pflyboy)
8. 10:32 AM - Re: aircamper engine (jimd)
9. 11:14 AM - GN-1 airfoil information (Oscar Zuniga)
10. 12:13 PM - Re: Re: aircamper engine (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
11. 12:18 PM - Re: GN-1 airfoil information (jimd)
12. 03:20 PM - NX92GB (shad bell)
13. 04:00 PM - Re: wing rib brads (Peter W Johnson)
14. 05:59 PM - Re: NX92GB (Don Emch)
15. 06:32 PM - Re: wing rib brads (Glenn Thomas)
16. 06:32 PM - Re: wing rib brads (Don Emch)
17. 06:33 PM - Re: NX92GB (Don Emch)
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| Subject: | Re: GN-1 airfoil information |
Thanks guys,
I had similar thoughts, but am still bugged by the fuselage really looking long
in front of the wing.
My engine is supposed to weigh 315 pounds, which if it was short and close to the
firewall (like the radial in the prototype Aerial) it wouldn't be that much
of a concern, the model A wet is about 280. My wood prop is only about 15 lbs,
so it isn't really far out of line.
However it is pretty far forward. There is some lead in the tail and the preliminary
W&B seems okay. With the tail up in a flying position it still has a good
deal of weight on the tail, about 50 pounds I think (need to get scales and
weigh it, but it doesn't seem nose heavy on the gear.)
In the air I don't think there would be an issue. The gear's camber is off and
that is what originally concerned me, however there is quite a bit of adjustment
that can be done, so until I have the plane up off the ground where it can
be adjusted, I don't know that it has any real camber problem either.
The Aerial plans have a few guidelines, essentially that if the engine is 280 lbs
or more move the top wing forward a few inches, and that the distance between
the wings can be set to 51" without appreciable differences in the W&B to make
entry/exit easier. From measuring the plane with the wings on, those changes
were made. The plans don't have anything about relocating the landing gear,
as the idea was to minimize changes from a stock plane. To get clearance from
the gear the lower wing mounts lift the wing a couple inches above the mount
points (which are the same mount points as the lift struts on a normal Piet or
GN-1.)
With the engineering math info I should be able to get an idea of whether its a
concern or a real problem, and the magnitude of what it will take to sort it
out.
Thought about replacing the two giant magneto's with a CDI system for instance,
that could cut at least 30 lbs off the nose, and would add a small battery that
could be moved behind the CG point. If it was just a little off that kind of
thing might help. (Probably cut more than that, was told the brass conduit for
the plug wires weighs almost 15 lbs., the mags look like starters for a big
truck, they are huge.)
But if it needs the gear forward a foot or so, its going to take some real work.
To me it looked like you could slant the gear forward like a Bucker Jungmann,
and gain 6-8" of forward movement of the axle pretty easily. The A&I disagreed
and said it would double the landing shock load, which led to a discussion
that I didn't follow well (neither did his friend that was with him that built
a Kitfox and was pretty knowledgeable.) So I will look toward a good engineer
if it comes to it.
The A&I is maintains a biplane museum, has 30+ yrs experience and specializes in
tube/rag work, and is one of our local EAA tech counselors, so I am inclined
to take his advice and investigate if I have a problem.
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most of the builders logs I have researched noted that after the gussets had dried,
the brads were removed. Why not leave them in?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182680#182680
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| Subject: | Re: wing rib brads |
Can add a few pounds of useless weight, not considered necessary.
If they are put on wing wraps they can work their way up thru the cloth and make
things ugly.
Jim D.
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| Subject: | Re: GN-1 airfoil information |
Jim,
I just had a peek at the photos of your plane at westcoastpiet.com .
That IS a long nose (on your plane). I've never seen one in person, and
there aren't many photos of Aerials floating around, so I have no idea
whether yours looks typical or not.
What I don't understand is that you write that there is some lead in the
tail. Generally speaking, that is a condition to be avoided - and the most
common way to avoid adding weight to the tail is to extend the motormount a
bit. But it seems you have both - which means that you probably have
unnecessary weight, plus whatever negative aspects go along with a long
nose. I am not familiar with your engine (ENMA Tigre 125), and the photos
don't show the engine installed without the cowling, so it's hard to tell if
there is any room to move the engine back or not. Is the engine extremely
long? If it is possible to move the engine back, and remove the lead from
the tail, I would think that would be the way to go. What do the Aerial
plans show for typical powerplant (if at all), and how long is the nose?
Since your engine sounds heavy, one would expect that your nose should be
shorter than "normal".
And your cabane struts look really long, but from what you write, it sounds
as though the Aerial plans permit them to be that way.
Bill C.
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| Subject: | Re: GN-1 airfoil information |
My cabane struts are long, and its very easy getting in to front seat.
I agree that a heavier engine should make for a shorter cowling not longer.
Here are a few pics of the uncowled plane and a better pic of a Tigre.. it has
quite a bit of stuff hanging off the back.
My wing struts are way too long in the pics, about 9" long, they have not been
cut to size and finished yet, but I needed something to put in for photos.
Jim
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| Subject: | aircamper engine |
What is the ideal and maximum HP for the air camper? Also, what is the ideal engine
weight?
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| Subject: | Re: aircamper engine |
>From what I understand, the Continental C-90 is probably the ideal Pietenpol Air
Camper engine. It is rated at 90 horsepower, 95 for short periods. Even though
it has less horsepower than a Corvair or O-200, it can swing a larger diameter
prop, which is ideal for climb and also to overcome the Piet's drag. As
far as weight goes, the less, the better, but the Ford weighs about 240 lbs.
I think the C-90 comes in at about 215 lbs with all the little nicknacks and
doodads. Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Nick
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| Subject: | Re: aircamper engine |
Weight of Motor (Ford Model A) with Magneto 244 lb
Weight of Radiator 21 lb
Weight of Propeller 15 lb
With water, cowling and mounts your around 300 lbs I suspect.
Jim
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| Subject: | GN-1 airfoil information |
Jim;
Just for comparison, NX41CC in its most recent W&B (using electronic scales) had
29 lbs. on the tailwheel in the level configuration, empty.
You should weigh it and see if you really have 50 lbs. on the tail. I would think
you would require significantly higher elevator force to raise the tail if
it's that much heavier back there.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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| Subject: | Re: aircamper engine |
Nick ,
I agree with everything you said. The problem with the C-90 is PRICE!
Ken H.
Fargo, ND
pflyboy <nick_d_av8r@msn.com> wrote:
>From what I understand, the Continental C-90 is probably the ideal Pietenpol Air
Camper engine. It is rated at 90 horsepower, 95 for short periods. Even though
it has less horsepower than a Corvair or O-200, it can swing a larger diameter
prop, which is ideal for climb and also to overcome the Piet's drag. As far
as weight goes, the less, the better, but the Ford weighs about 240 lbs. I
think the C-90 comes in at about 215 lbs with all the little nicknacks and doodads.
Anybody feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Nick
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http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182734#182734
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
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| Subject: | Re: GN-1 airfoil information |
Oscar,
I will be weighing it next time I put it together, they (A&I and Kitfox guy) offered
to loan me a set of scales and help out, so when I get to a good point to
do it again thats the plan.
May be less than that, but felt mighty heavy holding it up.
Next time it goes together I want 2-3 knowedgable helpers on hand. Want to have
temporary struts the right length, and good supports for everything. Also a lot
of clamps/markers so we can do a trial run of all the rigging and mark all
the fitting locations. Need scales, levels, etc. And a clear plan/checklist so
we can get it together and apart in a day and still accomplish enough to make
it worth while. Going to get more/better quality pictures too.
In the mean time, I am working on getting the wood leading edge for the lower wings
fabricated, ordered 1/16th inch okume ply for the wrap, and will be checking
on getting exhaust stacks made.
jim
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Well, I got to fly the piet for the first time this year on saturday for a couple
hrs. It is a lot eaiser to taxi now that we have a steerable tailwheel! Now
just need to make a few good fly ins this summer. Is anyone going to the Wyncoop
WACO fly -in? I plan on going to it and the auto conversion fly-in at
Barber Field up by Alliance Ohio. Hope to see a few of you before Brodhead.
Shad
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Ted,
I left them in. I bought a pound of brads from AS&S when I started and still
have most of the left. Can't be much weight in that!
Cheers
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
http://www.cpc-world.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ted White
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2008 12:17 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing rib brads
<tankertoad1@suddenlink.net>
most of the builders logs I have researched noted that after the gussets had
dried, the brads were removed. Why not leave them in?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182680#182680
Checked by AVG.
1:08 PM
Checked by AVG.
1:08 PM
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Hey Shad...
I'm planning on the Barber Fly-in. I might even camp over night. I think it's
the first weekend in June. Right? Maybe I can park by you since I'm not an auto
conversion. Ha. I went last year and enjoyed it. Maybe we can try to get
together. You should get to see the "NEW" Sky Gypsy by then! I can't make it
to the Wynkoop Fly-in, I'll be on vacation. Maybe we can get Mr. Cuy to come
down to Barber. Might as well try to get Skip to come up too. Hey while we're
at it we better get a hold of Wil Graff. Ya know it's starting to sound like
a Pietenpol Fly-in. I could even hop some rides. I suppose we could just
all try to fly in there, but not actually call it a Fly-in.
Don Emch
NX899DE
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| Subject: | Re: wing rib brads |
According to Mr. Bingelis, the nails are of absolutely no consequence once
the glue has dried (excuse me, ...cured). All the strength of a joint is
attributed to the adhesive. In my opinion (only my opinion) if I can save a
few ounces here and there, I would remove the nails. The theme "think
light" has come up many times and that is my intention. I'm trying to build
the whole plane with no nails. Clamps for wing ribs are not that hard to
make. I think if lightness is a primary objective you will achieve it by
default by simply looking at each piece you build and asking yourself if
there will be a weight penalty for your decision.
Again, just my humble opinion.
Some people hestitate to take passengers over 180 lbs up for rides. Walt
Evans took my fat butt (212 lbs) up for a ride in his plane without
hestitation because his plane is LIGHT. 595 lbs. ...and climbed nicely. I
think as soon as you start making allowances (a pound here, five pounds
there) it can become a habit.
Just my non-flying, Pietenpol forum gained, $0.02 worth. A pound saved is a
pound earned.
On 5/12/08, Ted White <tankertoad1@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> tankertoad1@suddenlink.net>
>
> most of the builders logs I have researched noted that after the gussets
> had dried, the brads were removed. Why not leave them in?
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=182680#182680
>
>
--
Glenn Thomas
Storrs, CT
http://www.flyingwood.com
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| Subject: | Re: wing rib brads |
I left mine in... I'll bet maybe 1/4-1/2 of a pound of nails in the wing...
Don Emch
NX899DE
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Hey Shad,
I guess it's not really the first weekend. It's June 7-8.
Don
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