Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:05 AM - metal Piet parts (Oscar Zuniga)
2. 06:29 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
3. 07:31 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (Gene & Tammy)
4. 07:59 AM - Re: Aerial plans - was Are you guys scarfing 1/16th inch plywoo (jimd)
5. 08:08 AM - Re: About that idea for a low-wing Piet (jimd)
6. 08:34 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (Bill Church)
7. 08:52 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
8. 09:06 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (Brian Kraut)
9. 09:14 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (Ryan Michals)
10. 10:46 AM - 100 mph 2x4's (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
11. 11:04 AM - Re: 100 mph 2x4's (Jack T. Textor)
12. 11:19 AM - Re: metal Piet parts (bob@cozyworld.net)
13. 12:02 PM - Re: metal Piet parts (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
14. 09:15 PM - Re: 100 mph 2x4's (Gary Boothe)
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| Subject: | metal Piet parts |
Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport A
viation last year. Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO
Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)
As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who
tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived
that I know of, and some of them took money and ran. There is a demand for
premade metal parts. I'm sure you will see many comments about very usefu
l tweaks to the stock dimension parts, mostly having to do with extending t
abs and brackets just a smidge to make it easier to get a bolt into a hole
or to get wrenches/sockets on the head or nut. Nothing in the way of major
structural improvements... the metal bits are plenty strong, especially co
nsidering that they were designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel a
nd we have 4130 available now.
If you haven't gotten Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and
flying their Piets, get them... both for enjoyment and education. In their
thorough and entertaining videos both of these guys point out various plac
es where they improved on the stock metal fittings and will give you a good
feel for how it goes together.
Welcome to the low and slow world!Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CCSan Antonio, TXmailto: taildrags@hotmail.comwebsite at htt
p://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: metal Piet parts |
FYI my laser cut progress for metal parts:
Previously I had posted the notion of laser cutting metal parts, now after
the research and CAD drawings completed I came away with the following
information:
I had the metal parts reduced to CAD for the purposes of getting them laser
cut the pricing difference between 4130 and mild steel is about twice. I don't
know what others were charging for them so I have no gauge in determining if
the pricing is good or not? With the cost of metal who knows, its almost as
volatile as gasoline these days.
I am considering the notion yet again for purposes of speed and accuracy.
By comparison the 4130 price more than justified the time and tool purchase to
do them myself.
I had the job re quoted in mild steel and found the discount around 50% of
the 4130. Now in mild steel I am not too certain that the time and equipment
purchase is justifiably the best method especially with a 2 week delivery time
for all the parts done and delivered.
I have not explored other options with the laser guy in trying to get the
price lowered if I order a greater in quantity.
I will keep you all posted on both my decision to go laser and the outcome
should I decide to bite the bullet spend the bucks and just get it done. I
expect to be in Broad head this year and would love to discuss it with anyone
interested ion the topic or experience.
John
Building my Piet one stick at a time
NX895BP reserved
In a message dated 5/22/2008 9:06:47 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
taildrags@hotmail.com writes:
Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport
Aviation last year. Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO
Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)
As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who
tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived
that I know of, and some of them took money and ran. There is a demand for
premade metal parts. I'm sure you will see many comments about very useful
tweaks to the stock dimension parts, mostly having to do with extending tabs and
brackets just a smidge to make it easier to get a bolt into a hole or to get
wrenches/sockets on the head or nut. Nothing in the way of major structural
improvements... the metal bits are plenty strong, especially considering that
they were designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130
available now.
If you haven't gotten Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and
flying their Piets, get them... both for enjoyment and education. In their
thorough and entertaining videos both of these guys point out various places
where they improved on the stock metal fittings and will give you a good feel
for how it goes together.
Welcome to the low and slow world!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: metal Piet parts |
Wrong again Oscar! Don't know about the others, but mine has about all
the "air conditioning" in the winter I can stand and in the summers the
air conditioning kicks in the higher I fly.
Gene
N502R
----- Original Message -----
From: Oscar Zuniga
To: Pietenpol List
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 8:02 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: metal Piet parts
Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in
Sport Aviation last year. Congratulations! Be aware, however, that
there are NO Pietenpols flying today with air conditioning (doesn't your
Cozy have A/C?)
As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and
go who tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them
survived that I know of, and some of them took money and ran. There is
a demand for premade metal parts. I'm sure you will see many comments
about very useful tweaks to the stock dimension parts, mostly having to
do with extending tabs and brackets just a smidge to make it easier to
get a bolt into a hole or to get wrenches/sockets on the head or nut.
Nothing in the way of major structural improvements... the metal bits
are plenty strong, especially considering that they were designed and
flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130 available now.
If you haven't gotten Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building
and flying their Piets, get them... both for enjoyment and education.
In their thorough and entertaining videos both of these guys point out
various places where they improved on the stock metal fittings and will
give you a good feel for how it goes together.
Welcome to the low and slow world!
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG.
5/20/2008 6:45 AM
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Aerial plans - was Are you guys scarfing 1/16th inch |
plywoo
Used my head for once.
Sent note to Chad Wille asking him what should be done, he answered;
"The lower wings are built just like the uppers. The plywood is on the top side
only, glued to fillers on the top of the spar and ends on top of the leading
edge, about an inch or so on top of it, where you feather the 1/16 lip to blend
with the leading edge shape. All wood joints on wood airplanes are always
glued, regardless of the additional use of nails, bolts, staples, etc. You don't
need to scarf your 1/16 ply joints, just butt them together on a rib or with
a wood backing if they don't line up on a rib."
Now I know.
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184363#184363
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: About that idea for a low-wing Piet |
Theres a european outfit that sells a low wing pietenpol-ish plane
www.aerolab.it
Jim
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=184366#184366
Message 6
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| Subject: | metal Piet parts |
The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut (or
waterjet-cut or CNC punched or whatever method) is that in order to do it
economically, you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at one
time. Since the total amount of parts is so small (compared to the average
commercial application) a big portion of the cost is going to be set-up time
(programming, loading the sheet metal into the machine, unloading the
machine, and paperwork), so it's best for you to only pay for this one time
- hence the desire to cut all the parts at once. The problem with doing all
the parts at once is that you are very likely to find out, when you go to
assemble your parts, that the plane you have built does not EXACTLY match
the plane shown in your plans. There will most likely be differences of
1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't mean your plane is wrong, it just
means that YOU built it, with YOUR hands. However, it does mean that your
metal parts might not fit the plane you built (especially if you made any
modifications, as many seem to do). If you are the type that is extremely
meticulous about details and very precise (think watchmaker), the metal will
probably fit. If you're the typical builder, though, there will most likely
be some parts that will not fit and need to be re-made (at least once). If
you have access to one of these machines (through work or a friend) and can
have parts cut in small batches without paying through the nose, it's a
great time saver, especially as compared to a hacksaw and elbow grease (not
to mention the accuracy and precision).
Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that I
see for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As far
as strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts were
designed for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough. There IS the
opportunity to reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save weight
- BUT only if you know what you are doing. Most builders don't have a clue
as to how these calculations would be done, and so should stick to the
plans. If the only advantage of 4130 was the increased strength (which isn't
really needed in this case), I wouldn't bother paying the extra money, and
just go with mild steel. But the added corrosion resistance of 4130 is a
distinct advantage that should not be overlooked.
(my 2 cents)
Bill C.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: metal Piet parts |
Dear Oscar,
"Cozy girls- I guess you're the "famous" ones that got written up in Sport
Aviation last year."
... famous, no, but it seems we got a bit of attention for awhile.
"Congratulations! Be aware, however, that there are NO Pietenpols flying
today with air conditioning (doesn't your Cozy have A/C?)"
... no A/C in the Cozy, lots of ventilation though when needed. Where it
flys you need HEAT not A/C.
The Cozy is a great cross country long distance voyager, we want something
for flying around the patch, up and down the rivers we are surrounded with and
across the farmlands, the Piet will be perfect. I have flown slower... I
used to fly balloons =)
"As to the metal Piet parts, there have been several outfits come and go who
tried to offer them via mail order or internet, but none of them survived
that I know of..."
... yes, we noticed. We went into this business full time several years ago
to replace the Rutan specified supplier and several garage operations that
had gone out of business. We agree with you that it would be a bad venture if
the Piet hardware were our only business or even as a side business. We have
extensive product design, development and prototyping experience prior to
aircraft hardware plus much of the manufacturing tools ourselves so it helps keep
cost down. Since we do a lot of it our laser and waterjet vendors keep the
sheet materials we use in stock and we typically order several years worth of
inventory at once since the price of materials and labor will only increase.
This also ensures we are able to ship from stock.
"and some of them took money and ran."
... yes, something we hear over and over in this industry. We paid 50%
deposit for our retractable landing gear and waited nearly 3 years to get it.
It
is our policy to not take a dime from a customer until we have their order
complete, in a box, weighed, price the shipping, email them the final total
before we accept a cent from them. Now isn't that refreshing?
" the metal bits are plenty strong, especially considering that they were
designed and flown 75 years ago using mild steel and we have 4130 available
now."
...even 4130 can be a liability, brittle if not handled properly. Laser
cutting causes highly brittle, very hard edges, great place for cracks to begin.
Holes have to be cut undersized then drilled but before this can be done the
parts have to be annealed-"baked" to get them back to N condition, then holes
can be drilled or reamed as needed (otherwise the holes will be so hard they
will destroy your tools), then tumble deburred and finally cadmium plated,
and baked once again immediately after plating to prevent hydrogen
embrittlement. There's more to it than just getting some parts cut out.
"Mike Cuy's or Chuck Gantzer's videos on building and flying their Piets,
get them..."
... will do, Thanks! that should be helpful.
"Welcome to the low and slow world!"
...Can't wait. Already stacking up the CAD drawings and toolpath files =)
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 8
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| Subject: | metal Piet parts |
I have access to a low cost CNC turret punch. I also have a CNC router and
milling machine. I have thought of making and selling parts, but have not
had the time to draw them. If anyone has the parts in CAD I would love to
have them. I would make the parts for a profit, but it would likely not be
much of a profit and I would likely sit on a set or two of parts for a while
before they sold so I would not be willing to pay for the drawings. So if
someone already has the drawings and does not mind sharing them on those
terms let me know.
Brian Kraut
Engineering Alternatives, Inc.
www.engalt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 11:32 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: metal Piet parts
The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut
(or waterjet-cut or CNC punched or whatever method) is that in order to do
it economically, you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at one
time. Since the total amount of parts is so small (compared to the average
commercial application) a big portion of the cost is going to be set-up time
(programming, loading the sheet metal into the machine, unloading the
machine, and paperwork), so it's best for you to only pay for this one
time - hence the desire to cut all the parts at once. The problem with doing
all the parts at once is that you are very likely to find out, when you go
to assemble your parts, that the plane you have built does not EXACTLY match
the plane shown in your plans. There will most likely be differences of
1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't mean your plane is wrong, it just
means that YOU built it, with YOUR hands. However, it does mean that your
metal parts might not fit the plane you built (especially if you made any
modifications, as many seem to do). If you are the type that is extremely
meticulous about details and very precise (think watchmaker), the metal will
probably fit. If you're the typical builder, though, there will most likely
be some parts that will not fit and need to be re-made (at least once). If
you have access to one of these machines (through work or a friend) and can
have parts cut in small batches without paying through the nose, it's a
great time saver, especially as compared to a hacksaw and elbow grease (not
to mention the accuracy and precision).
Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that
I see for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As
far as strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts
were designed for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough. There IS the
opportunity to reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save
eight - BUT only if you know what you are doing. Most builders don't have a
clue as to how these calculations would be done, and so should stick to the
plans. If the only advantage of 4130 was the increased strength (which isn't
really needed in this case), I wouldn't bother paying the extra money, and
just go with mild steel. But the added corrosion resistance of 4130 is a
distinct advantage that should not be overlooked.
(my 2 cents)
Bill C.
Message 9
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| Subject: | metal Piet parts |
I think you would have a tough time selling the parts if they were not 4130, whether
they were strong enough or not. Just my opinion.
Ryan M
Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut (or waterjet-cut
or CNC punched or whatever method) is that in order to do it economically,
you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at one time. Since
the total amount of parts is so small (compared to the average commercial application)
a big portion of the cost is going to be set-up time (programming, loading
the sheet metal into the machine, unloading the machine, and paperwork),
so it's best for you to only pay for this one time - hence the desire to cut
all the parts at once. The problem with doing all the parts at once is that you
are very likely to find out, when you go to assemble your parts, that the plane
you have built does not EXACTLY match the plane shown in your plans. There
will most likely be differences of 1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't
mean your plane is wrong, it just means that YOU built it, with YOUR hands.
However, it does mean that your metal parts might
not fit the plane you built (especially if you made any modifications, as many
seem to do). If you are the type that is extremely meticulous about details and
very precise (think watchmaker), the metal will probably fit. If you're the
typical builder, though, there will most likely be some parts that will not fit
and need to be re-made (at least once). If you have access to one of these
machines (through work or a friend) and can have parts cut in small batches without
paying through the nose, it's a great time saver, especially as compared
to a hacksaw and elbow grease (not to mention the accuracy and precision).
Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that I
see for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As far as
strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts were designed
for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough. There IS the opportunity to
reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save weight - BUT only if
you know what you are doing. Most builders don't have a clue as to how these
calculations would be done, and so should stick to the plans. If the only advantage
of 4130 was the increased strength (which isn't really needed in this case),
I wouldn't bother paying the extra money, and just go with mild steel. But
the added corrosion resistance of 4130 is a distinct advantage that should not
be overlooked.
(my 2 cents)
Bill C.
Message 10
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Off topic. Do not archive.
If you're like me you'll enjoy this very much. Great fun with 2x4's.
http://www.spudtech.com/ Scroll down to click on WATCH video
Message 11
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Mike, don't be bringing one of those to Brodhead :-)
Jack
www.textors.com
do not archive
Off topic. Do not archive.
If you're like me you'll enjoy this very much. Great fun with 2x4's.
http://www.spudtech.com/ <http://www.spudtech.com/> Scroll down to
click on WATCH video
Message 12
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| Subject: | metal Piet parts |
I will say that the Cozy Girrrls produce parts that are functional works of
art.=C2- They have the knowledge (engineers), experience & integrity tha
t will be an assest to this or any other group.=C2- I can't wait to see w
hat they come up with.=C2- We're in for an incredible ride of awesome met
al parts that will equal the finest built Piets on which they're a part of.
I can tell you from the Cozy world the sources of parts were hit and miss,
long waits,=C2- questionalbe quality and sometimes down right ugly.=C2-
The Cozy Girrrls came along and filled a hugely needed gap of first provid
ing the parts and then taking it to the art form that would inspire.=C2-
The hard part will be to build the rest of the aircraft that matches up to
the quality and inspiration of their parts.
Bob
Santa Fe, NM
=C2-
I think you would have a tough time selling the parts if they were not 4130
, whether they were strong enough or not. Just my opinion.
=C2-
Ryan M
Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
=C2-
The way I see it, the biggest problem with having metal parts laser-cut (or
waterjet-cut or CNC punched or whatever method) is that=C2-in order to d
o it economically, you would have to have all of your metal parts cut at on
e time. Since the total amount of parts is so small=C2-(compared to the a
verage commercial application) a big portion of the cost is going to be set
-up time (programming, loading the sheet metal into the machine, unloading
the machine, and paperwork), so it's best for you to only pay for this one
time - hence the desire to cut all the parts at once. The problem with doin
g all the parts at once is that you are very likely to find out, when you g
o to assemble your parts, that the plane you have built does not EXACTLY ma
tch the plane shown in your plans. There will most likely be differences of
1/16" or 1/8" here and there. This doesn't mean your plane is wrong, it ju
st means that=C2-YOU built it, with=C2-YOUR hands. However,=C2-it doe
s mean that your metal parts might not fit the plane you built (especially
if you made any modifications, as many seem to do). If you are the type tha
t is extremely meticulous about details and very precise (think watchmaker)
, the metal will probably fit. If you're the typical builder, though,=C2-
there will most likely be some parts that will not fit and need to be re-ma
de (at least once). If you have access to one of these machines (through wo
rk or a friend) and can have parts cut in small batches without paying thro
ugh the nose, it's a great time saver, especially as compared to a hacksaw
and elbow grease (not to mention the accuracy and precision).
Regarding mild steel vs 4130, in the Pietenpol, the biggest advantage that
I see for 4130 is it's corrosion resistance, as compared to mild steel. As
far as strength, yes it is much stronger than mild steel, buth the parts we
re designed for mild steel, so mild steel is strong enough.=C2-There IS t
he opportunity to reduce the thickness of the sheet metal, and thus save we
ight=C2- - BUT only if you know what you are doing. Most=C2-builders do
n't have a clue as to how these calculations would be done, and so should s
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: metal Piet parts |
In a message dated 5/22/2008 11:15:20 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
aircamperace@yahoo.com writes:
I think you would have a tough time selling the parts if they were not 4130,
whether they were strong enough or not. Just my opinion.
Ryan M
--------------------------------------------------
Dear Ryan,
We could not agree with you more.
There are other ways to be competitive other than skimping on quality when a
better alternative is available. With respect to the overall cost of building
the plane we would guess that the cost of the metal fittings is not a large
percentage of the cost. Spending a little extra for quality and peace of mind
is well worth it.
Those on a tight budget can certainly build the parts themselves to plans
and do a comparable job.
We are awed at the planes we see on this groups web sites and it goes to
show the high level of craftsmanship amongst you.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
**************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with
Tyler Florence" on AOL Food.
(http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4&?NCID=aolfod00030000000002)
Message 14
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Here's an idea: use 2 x 4 spruce and watch us Builders run for free wood!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(8 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael
D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 100 mph 2x4's
Off topic. Do not archive.
If you're like me you'll enjoy this very much. Great fun with 2x4's.
<http://www.spudtech.com/> http://www.spudtech.com/ Scroll down to
click on WATCH video
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