---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 07/21/08: 41 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:34 AM - Re: Piets flying to Brodhead-- who else? (Phillips, Jack) 2. 05:27 AM - Re: 25-hour approval (Dick Carden) 3. 05:45 AM - Re: Re: 25-hour approval (Phillips, Jack) 4. 06:44 AM - Re: Re: Brodhead trip (Gene Rambo) 5. 07:21 AM - Re: Re: Brodhead trip (Kirk Huizenga) 6. 09:24 AM - Test (Michael Perez) 7. 09:51 AM - New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 8. 10:33 AM - Re: New guy signs up (Glenn Thomas) 9. 10:49 AM - Welcome New guy signs up (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]) 10. 11:21 AM - Re: New guy signs up (Michael Silvius) 11. 11:21 AM - Re: New guy signs up (Jack T. Textor) 12. 11:21 AM - Re: Re: New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 13. 11:34 AM - Re: Welcome New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 14. 11:35 AM - Re: New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 15. 11:53 AM - Re: New guy signs up (Jack T. Textor) 16. 12:01 PM - Re: Re: New guy signs up (Roman Bukolt) 17. 12:03 PM - Re: New guy signs up (Rick Holland) 18. 12:13 PM - Re: Welcome New guy signs up (Phillips, Jack) 19. 12:20 PM - DVD (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]) 20. 12:26 PM - Re: Welcome New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 21. 12:39 PM - Re: New guy signs up (mr-fix-all) 22. 12:39 PM - Re: New guy signs up (Bill Church) 23. 12:49 PM - Re: DVD (Bill Church) 24. 12:53 PM - Re: best movie scenes (mr-fix-all) 25. 01:26 PM - Frued table saw blades (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]) 26. 01:30 PM - Re: DVD (Rick Holland) 27. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: New guy signs up (Bill Church) 28. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: 25-hour approval (Lagowski Morrow) 29. 02:53 PM - Taildragger rides to Piet Builders (HelsperSew@aol.com) 30. 03:10 PM - Re: Taildragger rides to Piet Builders (John Recine) 31. 03:58 PM - Re: Re: best movie scenes (H RULE) 32. 04:35 PM - Re: New guy signs up (Gary Boothe) 33. 04:42 PM - Plans have changed (Milt Atkinson) 34. 04:48 PM - Plans have changed (Milt Atkinson) 35. 04:57 PM - Re: Plans have changed (Gary Boothe) 36. 05:07 PM - Re: New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 37. 05:08 PM - Re: DVD (Michael Perez) 38. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: New guy signs up (Michael Perez) 39. 05:54 PM - Re: DVD (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 40. 10:11 PM - Re: New guy signs up (Bill Princell) 41. 11:26 PM - Re: Re: New guy signs up (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:01 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piets flying to Brodhead-- who else? From: "Phillips, Jack" Weather permitting, I'll have my Piet there. I plan to leave Wednesday morning from Raleiugh, NC and should be in Brodhead by Thursday evening. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:15 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piets flying to Brodhead-- who else? Who is flying a Piet to Brodhead? I know of Dick Navratil, Bill Rewey, Roman Bukolt, Lowell Frank, and Greg Cardinal/Dale Johnson. Who else? BTW, I'll be there, but in a Suburban. Tim in central TX ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:27:37 AM PST US From: Dick Carden Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 25-hour approval I think I must have been asleep when the techniques for getting 25-hour rather than 40-hour approval. Would someone kindly direct me? I'm planning to use a Corvair with a wooden prop; is there any way that can be accepted for 25 hours? Dick Carden ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:45:38 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: 25-hour approval From: "Phillips, Jack" NO. To get the 25 hour approavl you have to use a Certifated aircraft engine and a certificated propeller. With either a Corvair or a handbuilt prop you are required to have a 40 hour flyoff. With both a Corvair and a handmade prop it will be 80 Hours (just kidding - wanted to see if you were paying attention. With your combination a 40 hour flyoff will be required). Jack Phillips Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Carden Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 25-hour approval I think I must have been asleep when the techniques for getting 25-hour rather than 40-hour approval. Would someone kindly direct me? I'm planning to use a Corvair with a wooden prop; is there any way that can be accepted for 25 hours? Dick Carden ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:44:03 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead trip I managed to get the weekend off of work, so I will be flying into Chicago Friday am and driving to Brodhead. Driving back to Chicago sun/mon depending on whether I decide to go to Oshkosh for a day. Does this fit with anyone else's plans? Anyone want a ride?? Gene ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:21:46 AM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Brodhead trip Google Earth Brodhead, WI and you will see the X just south of town between 11 and Brodhead Airport Rd. The "main entrance" is on the East side of the airport off of Airport Rd. Kirk On Jul 20, 2008, at 2:35 PM, mr-fix-all wrote: > > > > Hey All, > > I convinced my Wife and Brother-in-Law that riding the Harley's to > brodhead would make a great Saturday ride since is't only 3 hours. > My question is I found Brodhead, but were is the flyin going to be, > I assume it's not in downtown Brodhead. Is there admission, food > for sale? > > Also how much does Roman Bukolt charge for a full size wing plan? > > Looking forward to seeing you > > Jake > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=193966#193966 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:24:42 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Test Test Post. Actual questions to follow. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:18 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Hello fellow Air Camper builders! I have decided to commit to building and flying the Air Camper. With the help of a friend and co worker whom has built and flies his very own, I have decided to take on this endevor. I have the Pietenpol plans on their way as well as the 3 piece wing and Corvair/long fuse. plans. I am in contact with Aircraft Spruce for a wood quote and have been researching this list for Q&A. Curious: are there any other Sitka supliers with pre-cut capstrip othet then A.S. and Wicks? For those of you whom have purchased the pre-cut capstrip, (1/4" X 1/2") how acurate was the size of the wood and the quality of the surfaces? (were they REALY 1/4" X 1/2" and smooth) TONS more questions to follow over the years...please be forgiving. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:33:35 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up From: "Glenn Thomas" I ordered from Aircraft Spruce. The dimensions were right on the money. It was the quality of the wood that was questionable. Lots of grain deviation and turbulence, chips from their machinery as well as pieces that broke during bending after steaming. I disputed with them and they replaced 40% of the capstrip order. I've ordered from them since but not much difference in quality. I am buying rough-cut from now on and sawing/planing to dimensions myself. There are lots of places that have rough cut boards. If you become familiar with the grading of the wood you can determine for yourself if it's going to be airworthy, since you can't really trust Aircraft Spruce to do it for you anyway. To them it's just inventory they want to move. I think it means a little more to you and me. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194155#194155 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:49:05 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]" Guys, Mike Perez starting working in my building a few months ago helping out with everything from precision machining to operating erosion jet fueled test rigs for engine erosion resistant coatings for the Army helicopter engines. He brought his family to our local EAA YE event a few Saturdays ago and that was the first time his two boys flew in an airplane and 1st time he'd ever seen a Pietenpol. (I had mine out for display) Guess the Piet fits his bill and his woodworking hobby pretty well. I told Mike that you guys are a pretty good bunch and he's already searched the archives and is actively setting up to build a set of wing ribs. Help me with dusting off my faded memory as he posts questions. I did mention McCormack Lumber in Wisconsin as several of you guys have had good things to say about thier a/c grade spruce and plywood so that might be an alternative for some parts of his build-up. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:15 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Though I have not dealt with them I hear tell that these fellows know what they are doing and sell a good product. I seem to recall someone mentioning they have the Piet plans on file and can quote you a price for the Sitka required but if not I am sure they can provide you with prices if you provide them with a list of your needs http://www.westernaircraftspruce.com/kits.php Michael in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez Curious: are there any other Sitka supliers with pre-cut capstrip othet then A.S. and Wicks? For those of you whom have purchased the pre-cut capstrip, (1/4" X 1/2") how acurate was the size of the wood and the quality of the surfaces? (were they REALY 1/4" X 1/2" and smooth) ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:15 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up From: "Jack T. Textor" Welcome Mike, I had very nice cap-strips from Wicks, good dimensions and quality. To cut your own, I heard that McCormack's got a new load of spruce last year. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 11:21:16 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up Thanks Glenn. I believe I have read about your wood troubles on-line. I have looked into buy bulk and cutting down myself. If my math was right, it seemed cheaper to buy the cap strip already made...but if the quality is not there, then where is the savings. I'll investigate further. I ordered from Aircraft Spruce. The dimensions were right on the money. It was the quality of the wood that was questionable. Lots of grain deviation and turbulence, chips from their machinery as well as pieces that broke during bending after steaming. I disputed with them and they replaced 40% of the capstrip order. I've ordered from them since but not much difference in quality. I am buying rough-cut from now on and sawing/planing to dimensions myself. There are lots of places that have rough cut boards. If you become familiar with the grading of the wood you can determine for yourself if it's going to be airworthy, since you can't really trust Aircraft Spruce to do it for you anyway. To them it's just inventory they want to move. I think it means a little more to you and me. -------- Glenn Thomas N????? http://www.flyingwood.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194155#194155 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:50 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up Copy that Mike! I did get the McCormick intel. I had looked into a place called Public Lumber as well. They have multiple sizes of sitka, but only 2 are lables "aircraft spar/grade"...or something like that. I wonder if that means the other sizes are not of the same quality? The smallest "AC grade" size they had was 2 X 4". If I were to rip my own, I would like to start with a smaller size board. Any ideas? Guys, Mike Perez starting working in my building a few months ago helping out with everything from precision machining to operating erosion jet fueled test rigs for engine erosion resistant coatings for the Army helicopter engines. He brought his family to our local EAA YE event a few Saturdays ago and that was the first time his two boys flew in an airplane and 1st time he'd ever seen a Pietenpol. (I had mine out for display) Guess the Piet fits his bill and his woodworking hobby pretty well. I told Mike that you guys are a pretty good bunch and he's already searched the archives and is actively setting up to build a set of wing ribs. Help me with dusting off my faded memory as he posts questions. I did mention McCormack Lumber in Wisconsin as several of you guys have had good things to say about thier a/c grade spruce and plywood so that might be an alternative for some parts of his build-up. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 11:35:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Thanks Jack. I believe I will re-vist buying bulk and cutting my own as well as Wicks. As for Aircraft Spruce, just got off the phone with them. $153.xx plus $20.00 for shipping for 80 1/2" X14" X 6 feet capstrip. About 1 week lead time. But if the quality is in question... "Jack T. Textor" wrote: Welcome Mike, I had very nice cap-strips from Wicks, good dimensions and quality. To cut your own, I heard that McCormacks got a new load of spruce last year. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:23 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up From: "Jack T. Textor" Mike, I've cut and planed all my wood except the cap-strips. At today's pricing I would still buy the cap-strips already cut. It will save you a ton of time and blades. Jack www.textors.com Hope to get to Brodhead by 7:00 Thursday evening. Jack Textor Vice President 3737 Woodland Avenue Suite #300 West Des Moines, IA 50266 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com This e-mail, including attachments, is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, is confidential, and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, and then please delete it. Thank you. ________________________________ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:32 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Thanks Jack. I believe I will re-vist buying bulk and cutting my own as well as Wicks. As for Aircraft Spruce, just got off the phone with them. $153.xx plus $20.00 for shipping for 80 1/2" X14" X 6 feet capstrip. About 1 week lead time. But if the quality is in question... "Jack T. Textor" wrote: Welcome Mike, I had very nice cap-strips from Wicks, good dimensions and quality. To cut your own, I heard that McCormack's got a new load of spruce last year. Jack ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:01:32 PM PST US From: Roman Bukolt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up I purchased (7) 1 x6 x 20ft. rough cut planks of Sitka spruce from McCormick Lumber in Madison, Wi. Their quality is good. I chose the four best ones and had them planed to 3/4" right at the lumber yard, with Bill Rewey's help. Those will be my wing spars. I would roughly guess that, the quantity that I bought should be enough to finish the plane. McCormick Lumber is only 40 mi. north of Brodhead. Drive up, enjoy the fly-in then go to Madison prior to returning home. The planks you choose for Spars can be cut just over 14 ft. (before planing) The cut-offs would be just under 6 ft., perfect for slicing up for wing rib stick stock.. Cut one other plank just long enough to get your longerons from. The remaining two planks can be cut to some convenient length so you wouldn't have to be hauling any 20 ft. planks home. Roman Bukolt, Madison, Wi. NX20795 On Jul 21, 2008, at 1:18 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > Thanks Glenn. I believe I have read about your wood troubles on- > line. I have looked into buy bulk and cutting down myself. If my > math was right, it seemed cheaper to buy the cap strip already > made...but if the quality is not there, then where is the savings. > I'll investigate further. > > Glenn Thomas wrote: > > I ordered from Aircraft Spruce. The dimensions were right on the > money. It was the quality of the wood that was questionable. Lots of > grain deviation and turbulence, chips from their machinery as well > as pieces that broke during bending after steaming. I disputed with > them and they replaced 40% of the capstrip order. I've ordered from > them since but not much difference in quality. I am buying rough-cut > from now on and > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:54 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Welcome to the clan Mike, I got the Pietenpol spruce kit and capstrip from ACS and the quality was excellent (back when the kit was only $800). Have also ordered additional spruce from Wicks with equally good results. By the way Broadhead is this weekend, there is no better way to start off the Pietenpol phase of your life than to spend at least all day Saturday there. You may even get a ride in one. You will also want to order the Mike Cuy DVD, can find info on it in this forum. Rick On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > Thanks Jack. I believe I will re-vist buying bulk and cutting my own as > well as Wicks. > > As for Aircraft Spruce, just got off the phone with them. $153.xx plus > $20.00 for shipping for 80 1/2" X14" X 6 feet capstrip. About 1 week lead > time. But if the quality is in question... > > *"Jack T. Textor" * wrote: > > Welcome Mike, > I had very nice cap-strips from Wicks, good dimensions and quality. To cut > your own, I heard that McCormack's got a new load of spruce last year. > Jack > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 12:13:59 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up From: "Phillips, Jack" Well, I was going to offer him some advice, but if he's a friend of yours, he has such questionable taste that advice would do him no good. Just kidding Mike Perez, Welcome to the slightly weird world of Pietenpols Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up Guys, Mike Perez starting working in my building a few months ago helping out with everything from precision machining to operating erosion jet fueled test rigs for engine erosion resistant coatings for the Army helicopter engines. He brought his family to our local EAA YE event a few Saturdays ago and that was the first time his two boys flew in an airplane and 1st time he'd ever seen a Pietenpol. (I had mine out for display) Guess the Piet fits his bill and his woodworking hobby pretty well. I told Mike that you guys are a pretty good bunch and he's already searched the archives and is actively setting up to build a set of wing ribs. Help me with dusting off my faded memory as he posts questions. I did mention McCormack Lumber in Wisconsin as several of you guys have had good things to say about thier a/c grade spruce and plywood so that might be an alternative for some parts of his build-up. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 12:20:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]" I'm going to give Mike P. the special 'NASA' rate on the DVD.......you know, gov't rate. (once I finally break down and makes some more copies) I told him that it was guaranteed to put his wife and kids to sleep in under 2.5 hours or he would get a full refund. My DVD has cured hundreds of cases of spousal insomnia. This DVD is not for everyone and in some cases mild to severe irritability can develop. See your doctor for details. Mike C. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 12:26:54 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up Thanks Jack! I'll keep a close eye on Cuy. Maybe I missed judged him. (wink wink to Cuy) Well, I was going to offer him some advice, but if he's a friend of yours, he has such questionable taste that advice would do him no good. Just kidding Mike Perez, Welcome to the slightly weird world of Pietenpols Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:46 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Welcome New guy signs up Guys, Mike Perez starting working in my building a few months ago helping out with everything from precision machining to operating erosion jet fueled test rigs for engine erosion resistant coatings for the Army helicopter engines. He brought his family to our local EAA YE event a few Saturdays ago and that was the first time his two boys flew in an airplane and 1st time he'd ever seen a Pietenpol. (I had mine out for display) Guess the Piet fits his bill and his woodworking hobby pretty well. I told Mike that you guys are a pretty good bunch and he's already searched the archives and is actively setting up to build a set of wing ribs. Help me with dusting off my faded memory as he posts questions. I did mention McCormack Lumber in Wisconsin as several of you guys have had good things to say about thier a/c grade spruce and plywood so that might be an alternative for some parts of his build-up. Mike C. in Ohio ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:12 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up From: "mr-fix-all" Greetings All, On the subject of material, I found a local supplier that has vertical grained Douglas fir, 10-15 rings per inch, 1 inch in 40 grain run out, in the following sizes 4/4 1x6 5.68 per bf, 5/4 1x6 6.22 per bf, and 6/4 1x6 6.32 per bf. Based on my estimates it takes about 3/16 of a board foot to make a rib, so with 40 ribs, account for wall hangers, that means about 7 Bf of Douglas fir to make the ribs, at 5.68 per Bf that would be bout $40 for rib wood. or have I been sniffing fumes too long? Thanks Jake -------- "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194188#194188 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:51 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Hi Mike, Welcome to the gang. Just about everybody on this list seem to be nice people (except me - I'm an ornery son of a gun). For my wood, I bought a couple of 2" x 6" rough Sitka planks from a local wood supplier, and have planed and sawn it all myself. I don't think you actually need to plane it, but I had access to a thickness planer, so I did it. Those planks have yielded all my capstrips and almost all of the sticks for my empennage, which I just finished building. My next step is the fuselage, so I'll be buying some more soon. I started with a brand new thin-kerf ripping blade for my 35-year old table saw, and the blade is still going strong. I also made use of a decent feather-board when ripping stock - helps maintain sizes, and prevents kickback. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jack T. Textor Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 2:51 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Mike, I've cut and planed all my wood except the cap-strips. At today's pricing I would still buy the cap-strips already cut. It will save you a ton of time and blades. Jack www.textors.com Hope to get to Brodhead by 7:00 Thursday evening. Jack Textor Vice President 3737 Woodland Avenue Suite #300 West Des Moines, IA 50266 515-225-7000 www.thepalmergroup.com This e-mail, including attachments, is covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-2521, is confidential, and may be legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, and then please delete it. Thank you. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:24 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: DVD Too bad for Mike P. As I recall, the price of a gov't hammer was $435. I can just imagine what a "conciousness altering DVD" must be valued at. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD I'm going to give Mike P. the special 'NASA' rate on the DVD.......you know, gov't rate. (once I finally break down and makes some more copies) I told him that it was guaranteed to put his wife and kids to sleep in under 2.5 hours or he would get a full refund. My DVD has cured hundreds of cases of spousal insomnia. This DVD is not for everyone and in some cases mild to severe irritability can develop. See your doctor for details. Mike C. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: best movie scenes From: "mr-fix-all" If any one has the chance find a copy of "Those magnificent men and their flying machines". It's a 1965 movie about an international air race set in the 1900's pretty good comedy but great old plane footage. Jake -------- "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194194#194194 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 01:26:38 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Frued table saw blades From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC]" Speaking of saw blades, I took the advice of my then Branch Chief and woodworker Carl Stearns back when I started my project and dropped a 100 bucks on a top-notch carbide tipped table saw blade by Freud. (sp ?) I made hundreds and hundreds of cuts (I wouldn't doubt thousands counting all my mistakes) and the cuts produced butter-smooth finishes on my wood until the day my plane flew. A fantastic investment. When I gave the old saw away I kept the blade.....now if I could find it some day ! Mike C. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 01:30:23 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DVD If NASA pays $8000 for toilet seats then your DVD has got to be worth at least a grand. (Just kiddin, actually I would rather have your DVD any day than a new toilet seat). Rick On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC] < michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: > I'm going to give Mike P. the special 'NASA' rate on the DVD.......you > know, gov't rate. (once I finally break down and makes some more > copies) I told him that it was guaranteed to put his wife and > kids to sleep in under 2.5 hours or he would get a full refund. My DVD > has cured hundreds of cases of spousal insomnia. This DVD > is not for everyone and in some cases mild to severe irritability can > develop. See your doctor for details. > > Mike C. > > Do not archive > > > * > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:31 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up Jake, One thing to remember when calculating board feet of wood required is to take into account the thickness of the saw blade. I know, it's only about 1/8 of an inch, but when you are talking about strips 1/4" x 1/2", it makes a difference. As I recall, you'll need roughly one hundred six-foot lengths of capstrip to make thirty ribs (not sure why you would want ten wall hangers). If you add one sawblade thickness to the width and height of a capstrip, your effective size of the capstrip becomes 3/8" x 5/8". This means that you would need about 10 bf , but I would add 20% for scrap and undetectable defects. But even at that, you're only running about $80 for your rib wood (plus about $50 for a 4' x 4' sheet of 1/16" ply for gussets). Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mr-fix-all Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up --> Greetings All, On the subject of material, I found a local supplier that has vertical grained Douglas fir, 10-15 rings per inch, 1 inch in 40 grain run out, in the following sizes 4/4 1x6 5.68 per bf, 5/4 1x6 6.22 per bf, and 6/4 1x6 6.32 per bf. Based on my estimates it takes about 3/16 of a board foot to make a rib, so with 40 ribs, account for wall hangers, that means about 7 Bf of Douglas fir to make the ribs, at 5.68 per Bf that would be bout $40 for rib wood. or have I been sniffing fumes too long? Thanks Jake ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:41:42 PM PST US From: "Lagowski Morrow" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: 25-hour approval Dick,based on my recent experience you will likely get 40 hours. The reason is the engine and propeller are not a certficated combination. See FAA Advisory Circular 20-27F, page 13.--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dick Carden" Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 8:24 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 25-hour approval > > I think I must have been asleep when the techniques for getting 25-hour > rather than 40-hour approval. Would someone kindly direct me? I'm planning > to use a Corvair with a wooden prop; is there any way that can be accepted > for 25 hours? Dick Carden > > > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > 6:42 AM > > > ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:53:27 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Taildragger rides to Piet Builders I made this announcement a few months ago, and I want to extend this invitation for: informal taildragger "instruction" (not a CFI) for any Piet builder (or serious would be builder) that is up at Brodhead Friday or Saturday. This ride would be given in my Aeronca Sedan (4-place with control wheels, red, N1152H) at no charge. This is my gift to get people energized and motivated. After you get up there, call me on my cell (or text) 815-298-5680 for scheduling. I should be up there before 10AM on Friday. The weather is supposed to be perfect. See you there!!!! Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:10:22 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Taildragger rides to Piet Builders From: "John Recine" RGFuDQoNCkkgYW0gaW5yb3V0ZSBhbmQgaGF2ZSBncmVhdCBleHBlY3RhdGlvbnMNCg0KRmx5IHNh ZmUNCg0KSm9obg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxlc3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0KDQot LS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogSGVsc3BlclNld0Bhb2wuY29tDQoNCkRh dGU6IE1vbiwgMjEgSnVsIDIwMDggMTc6NDk6NTkgDQpUbzogPHBpZXRlbnBvbC1saXN0QG1hdHJv bmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogVGFpbGRyYWdnZXIgcmlkZXMgdG8g UGlldCBCdWlsZGVycw0KDQoNClRvOiBBbGwgdGhlIEdvb2QgUGVvcGxlIG91dCB0aGVyZToNCiAN CkkgbWFkZSB0aGlzIGFubm91bmNlbWVudCBhIGZldyBtb250aHMgYWdvLCBhbmQgSSB3YW50IHRv IGV4dGVuZCB0aGlzICANCmludml0YXRpb24gZm9yOiBpbmZvcm1hbCB0YWlsZHJhZ2dlciAiaW5z dHJ1Y3Rpb24iIChub3QgYSBDRkkpIGZvciBhbnkgUGlldCAgYnVpbGRlciANCihvciBzZXJpb3Vz IHdvdWxkIGJlIGJ1aWxkZXIpIHRoYXQgaXMgdXAgYXQgQnJvZGhlYWQgRnJpZGF5IG9yIFNhdHVy ZGF5LiAgVGhpcyANCnJpZGUgd291bGQgYmUgZ2l2ZW4gaW4gbXkgQWVyb25jYSBTZWRhbiAgKDQt cGxhY2Ugd2l0aCBjb250cm9sIHdoZWVscywgIHJlZCwgDQpOMTE1MkgpIGF0IG5vIGNoYXJnZS4g VGhpcyBpcyBteSBnaWZ0IHRvIGdldCBwZW9wbGUgZW5lcmdpemVkIGFuZCAgbW90aXZhdGVkLiAN CkFmdGVyIHlvdSBnZXQgdXAgdGhlcmUsIGNhbGwgbWUgb24gbXkgY2VsbCAob3IgdGV4dCkgODE1 LTI5OC01NjgwIGZvciAgDQpzY2hlZHVsaW5nLiBJIHNob3VsZCBiZSB1cCB0aGVyZSBiZWZvcmUg MTBBTSBvbiBGcmlkYXkuIFRoZSB3ZWF0aGVyIGlzIHN1cHBvc2VkICB0byANCmJlIHBlcmZlY3Qu DQogDQpTZWUgeW91IHRoZXJlISEhISAgDQoNCkRhbiAgSGVsc3Blcg0KUG9wbGFyIEdyb3ZlLCBJ TC4NCg0KDQoNCg0KKioqKioqKioqKioqKipHZXQgZmFudGFzeSBmb290YmFsbCB3aXRoIGZyZWUg bGl2ZSBzY29yaW5nLiBTaWduIHVwIGZvciANCkZhbkhvdXNlIEZhbnRhc3kgRm9vdGJhbGwgdG9k YXkuICAgICAgDQooaHR0cDovL3d3dy5mYW5ob3VzZS5jb20vZmFudGFzeWFmZmFpcj9uY2lkPWFv bHNwcjAwMDUwMDAwMDAwMDIwKQ0KDQo ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:58:31 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: best movie scenes I have a copy of this.=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message - ---=0AFrom: mr-fix-all =0ATo: pietenp ol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:51:04 PM=0ASubject: P ietenpol-List: Re: best movie scenes=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "mr-fix-all" =0A=0AIf any one ha s the chance find a copy of "Those magnificent men and their flying machine s".- It's a 1965 movie about an international air race set in the 1900's pretty good comedy but great old plane footage.=0A=0A=0AJake=0A=0A-------- =0A"Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matte r, and those that matter don't mind"- Dr. Seuss=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead t his topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=1 ================ ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:35:56 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Mike, Looks like you have received lots of advice (I did not say 'good'). Obviously Mike C lied to you about this group, as vendors are prone to do.. ;<) I was very lucky to find a local hard wood supplier (who also knows A/C grade) who allowed me to root through all his stacks of wood. My Piet is almost all Poplar! I bought mostly full 1" pieces (usually 1 1/16") and have cut everything to size. My spars are not yet purchased, but they will be Fir. So far I have spent less than $300 and that includes all the Hickory for my landing gear struts, cabanes and wing struts! You could buy a good table saw, mill your own wood, and have less into it than buying A/C Spruce from a supplier! The fuselage and tail are all framed and I still have enough wood to build all the ribs. Also, as Mike C said (he doesn't lie about everything), I bought a carbide tipped saw blade 5 years ago (about $100) and have cut a prolific amount of wood for all sorts of home projects. The blade has never been sharpened!! Come to think of it.everything I know about Piets came from this group..guess I was wrong about Cuy..someday I'll buy him a beer and tell him how much I like the video.. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (10 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 9:49 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Hello fellow Air Camper builders! I have decided to commit to building and flying the Air Camper. With the help of a friend and co worker whom has built and flies his very own, I have decided to take on this endevor. I have the Pietenpol plans on their way as well as the 3 piece wing and Corvair/long fuse. plans. I am in contact with Aircraft Spruce for a wood quote and have been researching this list for Q&A. Curious: are there any other Sitka supliers with pre-cut capstrip othet then A.S. and Wicks? For those of you whom have purchased the pre-cut capstrip, (1/4" X 1/2") how acurate was the size of the wood and the quality of the surfaces? (were they REALY 1/4" X 1/2" and smooth) TONS more questions to follow over the years...please be forgiving. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:42:46 PM PST US From: "Milt Atkinson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans have changed Well, I started out like a house on fire gathering parts, plans, etc. and like everything else in life, things happen . I am now going to have to abandon the Corvair powered Pietenpol project and am willing to part with the things I have accumulated. I have: 1) The GM Green Manual 2) The "How to keep your Corvair Alive" book 3) 8409 crank turned .010 under, polished and tapped for the WW safety shaft 4) The WW safety shaft 5) Folded fin oil cooler 6) 3 engine cases 7) Cylinder jugs in very good shape . could be reconditioned or used for cores 8) 2 sets of cast iron exhaust logs 9) 2 sets of rods that were going to be used for exchange with Clarks 10) New C8800 cam with stock gear and washer installed 11) Set of new Clevite 77 .010 main bearing 12) Set of recommended heads . no work done on the heads 13) Harmonic balancer that was going to be used for a Clarks core 14) Front plate cut from a automatic trans bell housing 15) Several other misc engine parts . just ask 16) Complete set of Pietenpol plans for the 3 piece wing and extended fuse Anyone interested can make a reasonable offer for any or all. I am located in the Dallas\Ft Worth area and can be reached either via email miltatkinson@verizon.net or cell phone 214-762-8181. The WW manual and Clarks catalogs are not for sell . they are assigned my customer number and I will keep these. Milt Atkinson ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:48:02 PM PST US From: "Milt Atkinson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans have changed Well, I started out like a house on fire gathering parts, plans, etc. and like everything else in life, things happen . I am now going to have to abandon the Corvair powered Pietenpol project and am willing to part with the things I have accumulated. I have: 1) The GM Green Manual 2) The "How to keep your Corvair Alive" book 3) 8409 crank turned .010 under, polished and tapped for the WW safety shaft 4) The WW safety shaft 5) Folded fin oil cooler 6) 3 engine cases 7) Cylinder jugs in very good shape . could be reconditioned or used for cores 8) 2 sets of cast iron exhaust logs 9) 2 sets of rods that were going to be used for exchange with Clarks 10) New C8800 cam with stock gear and washer installed 11) Set of new Clevite 77 .010 main bearing 12) Set of recommended heads . no work done on the heads 13) Harmonic balancer that was going to be used for a Clarks core 14) Front plate cut from a automatic trans bell housing 15) Several other misc engine parts . just ask 16) Complete set of Pietenpol plans for the 3 piece wing and extended fuse Anyone interested can make a reasonable offer for any or all. I am located in the Dallas\Ft Worth area and can be reached either via email miltatkinson@verizon.net or cell phone 214-762-8181. The WW manual and Clarks catalogs are not for sell . they are assigned my customer number and I will keep these. Milt Atkinson ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:04 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Plans have changed Milt, Sorry to hear..best wishes to you! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (10 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Milt Atkinson Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 4:40 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plans have changed Well, I started out like a house on fire gathering parts, plans, etc. and like everything else in life, things happen . I am now going to have to abandon the Corvair powered Pietenpol project and am willing to part with the things I have accumulated. I have: 1) The GM Green Manual 2) The "How to keep your Corvair Alive" book 3) 8409 crank turned .010 under, polished and tapped for the WW safety shaft 4) The WW safety shaft 5) Folded fin oil cooler 6) 3 engine cases 7) Cylinder jugs in very good shape . could be reconditioned or used for cores 8) 2 sets of cast iron exhaust logs 9) 2 sets of rods that were going to be used for exchange with Clarks 10) New C8800 cam with stock gear and washer installed 11) Set of new Clevite 77 .010 main bearing 12) Set of recommended heads . no work done on the heads 13) Harmonic balancer that was going to be used for a Clarks core 14) Front plate cut from a automatic trans bell housing 15) Several other misc engine parts . just ask 16) Complete set of Pietenpol plans for the 3 piece wing and extended fuse Anyone interested can make a reasonable offer for any or all. I am located in the Dallas\Ft Worth area and can be reached either via email miltatkinson@verizon.net or cell phone 214-762-8181. The WW manual and Clarks catalogs are not for sell . they are assigned my customer number and I will keep these. Milt Atkinson ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:16 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:08:38 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: DVD MY thoughts EXACTLY! Yo Mike C...I'll pay the standard rate, thank you! (I have plane parts I can spend $4XX.XX on!) Bill Church wrote: Too bad for Mike P. As I recall, the price of a gov't hammer was $435. I can just imagine what a "conciousness altering DVD" must be valued at. Bill C. --------------------------------- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXC0)[ASRC] Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:18 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: DVD I'm going to give Mike P. the special 'NASA' rate on the DVD.......you know, gov't rate. (once I finally break down and makes some more copies) I told him that it was guaranteed to put his wife and kids to sleep in under 2.5 hours or he would get a full refund. My DVD has cured hundreds of cases of spousal insomnia. This DVD is not for everyone and in some cases mild to severe irritability can develop. See your doctor for details. Mike C. Do not archive ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:28 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up Agree. I have run the numbers a few times and it seems cheaper to cut my own. I actually like to take the time to cut/make/ build from scratch, so this will be an enjoyable task. More time, sure, but to me, this is where the fun is. Bill Church wrote: Jake, One thing to remember when calculating board feet of wood required is to take into account the thickness of the saw blade. I know, it's only about 1/8 of an inch, but when you are talking about strips 1/4" x 1/2", it makes a difference. As I recall, you'll need roughly one hundred six-foot lengths of capstrip to make thirty ribs (not sure why you would want ten wall hangers). If you add one sawblade thickness to the width and height of a capstrip, your effective size of the capstrip becomes 3/8" x 5/8". This means that you would need about 10 bf , but I would add 20% for scrap and undetectable defects. But even at that, you're only running about $80 for your rib wood (plus about $50 for a 4' x 4' sheet of 1/16" ply for gussets). Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of mr-fix-all Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up --> Greetings All, On the subject of material, I found a local supplier that has vertical grained Douglas fir, 10-15 rings per inch, 1 inch in 40 grain run out, in the following sizes 4/4 1x6 5.68 per bf, 5/4 1x6 6.22 per bf, and 6/4 1x6 6.32 per bf. Based on my estimates it takes about 3/16 of a board foot to make a rib, so with 40 ribs, account for wall hangers, that means about 7 Bf of Douglas fir to make the ribs, at 5.68 per Bf that would be bout $40 for rib wood. or have I been sniffing fumes too long? Thanks Jake ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:54:04 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: DVD Mike C is right about the DVD causing mild irritability, actually it made me very irritable because it is full of great information and we cannot start building till we finish the Cozy. Thanks Mike, great work! See Y'all Friday Regards, Chrissi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ============================== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 7/21/2008 2:21:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, michael.d.cuy@nasa.gov writes: I'm going to give Mike P. the special 'NASA' rate on the DVD.......you know, gov't rate. (once I finally break down and makes some more copies) I told him that it was guaranteed to put his wife and kids to sleep in under 2.5 hours or he would get a full refund. My DVD has cured hundreds of cases of spousal insomnia. This DVD is not for everyone and in some cases mild to severe irritability can develop. See your doctor for details. Mike C. Do not archive (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy Football today. (http://www.fanhouse.com/fantasyaffair?ncid=aolspr00050000000020) ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 10:11:30 PM PST US From: "Bill Princell" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: New guy signs up Hi Michael: Bought cap strip from ACS and Wickes a couple of months ago. I bought most of it from ACS. Their price was .32 per ft and they held dimension perfectly, but at the time their lead time was 6/8weeks. So I bought enough from Wicks to hold me over until my ACS order was shipped. I paid Wicks .70 per foot and they didn't hold dimension. A lot of it was junk, even though I told the order desk to please make sure it was cut to dimension, since I had had the same problem a year earlier. As a result, I won't order anything from them again. Bill Princell - On 7/21/08, Michael Perez wrote: > > > Curious: are there any other Sitka supliers with pre-cut capstrip othet > then A.S. and Wicks? For those of you whom have purchased the pre-cut > capstrip, (1/4" X 1/2") how acurate was the size of the wood and the quality > of the surfaces? (were they REALY 1/4" X 1/2" and smooth) > > TONS more questions to follow over the years...please be forgiving. > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 11:26:53 PM PST US From: Clif Dawson Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up So far my plane is entirely Western Hemlock. It's been quite an odyssey searching out the "perfect piece" but it has been worth it. There's still things to be done before building the wing panels, like the gas tank, firewall (partially done) , cabling for the tailwheel, machine the brake drums, plate and shoes, etc.,etc. There seems to be so much niggling detail! But I do have three 1" by 5 1/2" Fir boards for spars. There's only one place to get it here and they only get in maybe 5 to 8 boards at a time to pick through. I'm sure to have the last one by September though. And when the thing is finished will my shop be empty for long? Not likely! I have no idea what the withdrawal symptoms would be and I don't want to find out! I have come to realize over the years that I am much more a maker of things than a user. I suspect I'm not alone! :-) Clif "Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty." - Mark Twain, writer and humorist ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 5:09 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: New guy signs up Agree. I have run the numbers a few times and it seems cheaper to cut my own. I actually like to take the time to cut/make/ build from scratch, so this will be an enjoyable task. More time, sure, but to me, this is where the fun is. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.