---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 07/24/08: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:35 AM - Photo set for RC Model? (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 07:48 AM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (Michael Perez) 3. 08:23 AM - Riblett wood size (Michael Perez) 4. 09:21 AM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Bill Church) 5. 10:03 AM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Michael Perez) 6. 10:45 AM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Bill Church) 7. 11:17 AM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Owen Davies) 8. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (walt) 9. 01:50 PM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Michael Silvius) 10. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 11. 02:03 PM - Re: Aluminum in place of metal fittings (Michael Silvius) 12. 03:01 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (Lazlo Almasi) 13. 03:42 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (Lazlo Almasi) 14. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (Clif Dawson) 15. 06:04 PM - Where to look-- Corvair (Oscar Zuniga) 16. 06:06 PM - Re: Re: Where to look-- Corvair (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:35:51 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Photo set for RC Model? Antoni; There is a very good archive of photographs of many Pietenpols at Chris Tracy's website, http://westcoastpiet.com/pictures.htm Also another good resource for you is DJ Vegh in Arizona, who built a very nice RC model of the GN-1. You can see some of his work at http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/gallery.htm Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:06 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair Copy that Jim. I plan on getting the books and doing the research prior to buying. --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Jim Ash wrote: From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair Make sure when you find one it's the engine you want, which is a late ('65 - '69) 110hp. Chevy made a number of different engines for Corvairs and some of them you really don't want. Do your homework before you buy. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: Rick Holland >Sent: Jul 23, 2008 3:42 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair > >I just called a few local junkyards and got lucky. Pulling the engine >yourself can be fun (just bring a floor jack), you meet some real >interesting (strange) people at a junkyard. > >Rick > >On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:37 PM, PatrickW wrote: > >> >> I found mine by asking around at an EAA meeting. One of the guys >> remembered a junkyard a couple hours away that had some Corvairs, and I was >> able to find my core there. >> >> I also joined a local Corsa Chapter that provided some leads. Other ideas >> would be to ask local auto mechanics if they have any ideas on where to find >> one. Maybe put a "wanted" ad in a local paper. There's craigslist.orgtoo. >> >> Don't give up searching - the hunt is kinda fun! Take your camera so you >> can take pictures if it's still in a car someplace. >> >> Once I started looking I had a couple leads, and ended up grabbing a 1967 >> core. >> >> Patrick >> http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/PatsCorvairEngine >> >> -------- >> Patrick >> 601XL/Corvair >> N63PZ (reserved) >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194573#194573 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >-- >Rick Holland >Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 08:23:23 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett wood size I have the plans for the Riblett design on its way. I have the wood which I will cut to size in hand. Is the capstrip size for the Riblett the standar d 1/4" X 1/2" ? Any one see issues with me cutting up 6 foot long strips th is size for the Riblett rib design? It may be another week before I see the plans. - ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:53 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Mike, In general, if you plan to substitute materials from those shown in the plans, you had better know what you are doing. For instance, with regards to substituting aluminum plate for the control horns, you should be aware (maybe you are already) that if you weld aluminum, many alloys are severely weakened at the weld location (for 6061 the reduction is about 40% within one inch of the weld). Aluminum also does not have a fatigue limit, unlike steel. What this basically means is that steel will not be affected by fatigue (repeated cycles of tension and compression) unless it is stressed above a certain level, whereas aluminum will feel the effects of fatigue at any level of stress. Eventually, the aluminum could develop cracks due to fatigue. Also, the solid aluminum control horns will definitely end up heavier than the hollow, formed sheet metal horns shown in the drawings. As an example, the aileron control horn has a surface area of approximately 19 square inches on one side. Two thicknesses of 22ga (.03") mild steel (or 4130) will weigh about 0.33 lb. One thickness of 3/8" aluminum will weigh approximately 0.7 lb - or twice as much. Of course, you could machine the aluminum into a bit of an airfoil shape, which would save a few ounces. But then you will still need to add bracing angles and nuts and bolts to mount this solid aluminum horn. Attached is a photo of such an aluminum aileron horn (by someone else), which was cut from 1/4" aluminum plate. I would estimate that this whole arrangement weighs approximately 2 to 3 times as much as a plans-built control horn. So, in conclusion, just make sure you do your homework before you start changing from the plans. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings I just got my plans today from the Pietenpol family. As I glanced over them quickly, I see the fittings involved with the 3 piece wing, wing struts, control bell cranks, etc. I wonder if it would be safe to make some, if not all of these, from aluminum. I am thinking of machining some of these from .125", T-6061. The fittings to move the rudder, ailerons, etc., I wonder if, say 3/8" T-6061 would work...machined from a single slab and maybe even fitted with ball bearings where the control wires connect. Just some thoughts. I have the machines and material readily available. Any ideas? Anyone do this before? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:03:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Thanks Bill. This is exactly why I ask. There is always someone whom knows more then you do. After looking further into the prints, I undestand the lo gic behind the design. I want to save weight at every turn, but not comprom ize the integrity of the AC. Bending, and welding these different pieces wi ll just learn me a new skill...I'm down with that. Thanks for the response. --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Mike, In general, if-you plan to substitute materials from those shown in the p lans, you had better know what you are doing. For instance, with regards to substituting aluminum plate for the control h orns, you should be aware (maybe you are already) that if you weld aluminum , many alloys are severely weakened at the weld location (for 6061 the redu ction is about 40% within one inch of the weld). Aluminum also does not have a fatigue limit, unlike steel. What this basica lly means is that steel will not be affected by fatigue (repeated cycles of tension and compression)-unless it is stressed above a certain level, wh ereas aluminum will feel the effects of fatigue at any level of stress. Eve ntually, the aluminum could develop cracks due to fatigue. Also, the solid aluminum control horns will definitely end up heavier than the hollow, formed sheet metal horns shown in the drawings. As an example, the aileron control horn has a surface area of approximately 19 square inch es on one side. Two thicknesses of 22ga (.03") mild steel (or 4130) will we igh about 0.33 lb. One thickness of 3/8" aluminum will weigh approximately 0.7 lb - or twice as much. Of course, you could machine the-aluminum into a bit of an airfoil shape, which-would save a few ounces. But then you w ill still need to add bracing angles and nuts and bolts-to mount this sol id aluminum horn. Attached is a photo of such an aluminum aileron horn (by someone else), which was cut from 1/4" aluminum plate. I would estimate tha t this whole arrangement weighs approximately 2 to 3 times as much as a pla ns-built control horn. - So, in conclusion, just make sure you do your homework before you start cha nging from the plans. - Bill C. - From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings I just got my plans today from the Pietenpol family. As I glanced over them quickly, I see the fittings involved with the 3 piece wing, wing struts, c ontrol bell cranks, etc. I wonder if it would be safe to make some, if not all of these, from aluminum. I am thinking of machining some of these from .125", T-6061. The fittings to move the rudder, ailerons, etc., I wonder if , say 3/8" T-6061 would work...machined from a single slab and maybe even f itted with ball bearings where the control wires connect. Just some thought s. I have the machines and material readily available. Any ideas? Anyone do this before? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:19 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings No problem, Mike. Actually, I think a lot of people are intimidated by the control horns as shown in the plans. But I don't think they are really that tricky. And when they are well made, they are a really nice looking feature. I'm looking forward to building those little jobbies. I'll be making mine soon (I hope) so we'll see if I have to eat my words on that one. But, 20 or 22ga steel is fairly easy to manipulate, and once it gets those curves bent into it (for the airfoil shape) it will become quite rigid. The most challenging part will be welding the light gauge metal, which, in my case, I will likely get done for me by someone who knows what they are doing. It has been said that Bernard Pietenpol designed the Air Camper so that it could be built by a person with average skills and equipment, using materials that were readily available. When you consider that that was almost 80 years ago, and the advancements in technology and equipment that have occurred since then, there really is no reason why anyone today wouldn't be able to build one of these planes. If it means that some of us get to learn a few new skills along the way, then, as you say, "I'm down with that" too. Enjoy the journey you're embarking on. It may not be a fast trip, but there's lots to see and do along the way. And when you are finished building, you can take your creation on another journey - also not a fast trip, but with lots to see and do along the way. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 1:01 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Thanks Bill. This is exactly why I ask. There is always someone whom knows more then you do. After looking further into the prints, I undestand the logic behind the design. I want to save weight at every turn, but not compromize the integrity of the AC. Bending, and welding these different pieces will just learn me a new skill...I'm down with that. Thanks for the response. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:17:22 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Among other useful comments, Bill Church wrote: > Actually, I think a lot of people are intimidated by the control horns > as shown in the plans. But I don't think they are really that tricky. FWIW, a friend of ours built a Piet some years back. His total welding experience was an afternoon at the local EAA chapter. The control horns were the first steel pieces he made--with an overgrown Craftsman handyman's torch. The results were just beautiful the first time out. He does have talent, but based on his experience there is no reason anyone should have trouble building usable horns. Owen ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:49:14 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair test walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Ash" Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 12:26 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair > > Make sure when you find one it's the engine you want, which is a late > ('65 - '69) 110hp. Chevy made a number of different engines for Corvairs > and some of them you really don't want. Do your homework before you buy. > > Jim > > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Rick Holland >>Sent: Jul 23, 2008 3:42 PM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair >> >>I just called a few local junkyards and got lucky. Pulling the engine >>yourself can be fun (just bring a floor jack), you meet some real >>interesting (strange) people at a junkyard. >> >>Rick >> >>On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 12:37 PM, PatrickW wrote: >> >>> >>> I found mine by asking around at an EAA meeting. One of the guys >>> remembered a junkyard a couple hours away that had some Corvairs, and I >>> was >>> able to find my core there. >>> >>> I also joined a local Corsa Chapter that provided some leads. Other >>> ideas >>> would be to ask local auto mechanics if they have any ideas on where to >>> find >>> one. Maybe put a "wanted" ad in a local paper. There's >>> craigslist.orgtoo. >>> >>> Don't give up searching - the hunt is kinda fun! Take your camera so >>> you >>> can take pictures if it's still in a car someplace. >>> >>> Once I started looking I had a couple leads, and ended up grabbing a >>> 1967 >>> core. >>> >>> Patrick >>> http://picasaweb.google.com/Patrick.Hoyt/PatsCorvairEngine >>> >>> -------- >>> Patrick >>> 601XL/Corvair >>> N63PZ (reserved) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194573#194573 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>Rick Holland >>Castle Rock, Colorado > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:50:10 PM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings From: http://members.aol.com/bpanews/www.html You can change Mr. Pietenpol's plans and build a good airplane. But if you don't change them, you'll build a better one. . . . . Jim VanDervort Michael in Maine ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:51:20 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair If you are still in search of a corvair or in need of rebuilding and assemb ly to include testing of your engine....contact this site: www.billclapp.co m-- Look under Corvair services and tell him Ken Heide sent you! Let hi m know you are from the pietenpol site. He has engines I believe in stock. If you want to purchase an engine, I have two complete- torn down engines ready to be rebuilt. Nothing missing. Email me with your information and a number so we can discuss in further details. - Also, I have a corvair guru who can sell you an engine since he has several in storage. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - -=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:03:03 PM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum in place of metal fittings Michael: Santiago Morete's project. If you can read Spanish you will find some good advise regarding the design, if not just enjoy the photos http://www.aracuan.com.ar/pietenpol.htm Michael ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 03:01:03 PM PST US From: "Lazlo Almasi" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair Re: Mr. Clapp: Please read the links http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/message?sn=0&hit=39 http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/message?sn=0&hit=4 http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/message?sn=0&hit=28 http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/message?sn=0&hit=8 Caveat emptor Lazlo ----- Original Message ----- *From:* KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com *Sent:* Thursday, July 24, 2008 3:48 PM *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair If you are still in search of a corvair or in need of rebuilding and assembly to include testing of your engine....contact this site: www.billclapp.com Look under Corvair services and tell him Ken Heide sent you! Let him know you are from the pietenpol site. He has engines I believe in stock. If you want to purchase an engine, I have two complete torn down engines ready to be rebuilt. Nothing missing. Email me with your information and a number so we can discuss in further details. Also, I have a corvair guru who can sell you an engine since he has several in storage. *Kenn**eth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP * ** ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 03:42:36 PM PST US From: "Lazlo Almasi" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair go to: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/ search for Bill Clapp, see results under: Jul 5, 2008 CorvAircraft> Re: KR> Who bought my stuff / Bill Clapp flykr2s@charter.net Jun 22, 2008 CorvAircraft> setting the record straight N56ML@hiwaay.net Mar 7, 2008 CorvAircraft> Issues with Bill Clapp, Long Post WilliamTCA@aol.com Mar 9, 2008 Re: CorvAircraft> Enough on the character assassination n56ml@hiwaay.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 04:57:51 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair You know, there's a guy on the Corvair list that finds and puts up Craigslist engines from all over the country. You should sign up if you already haven't. Corvair engines for homebuilt aircraft Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2008 7:42 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair Copy that Jim. I plan on getting the books and doing the research prior to buying. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:04:15 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Where to look-- Corvair Michael; you can contact Raymond Hanover (rhano@att.net) for the name of a friend up in Wyoming that has a Corvair he has cleaned up and stored along with a Wynne manual. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 06:06:28 PM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair Memebers of the list!!! - I had no idea he was a con artist! I take back any mention of him or is ser vices! Geez....glad I did not use him! Thanks for the heads up on his opera tion! Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - --- On Thu, 7/24/08, Lazlo Almasi wrote: From: Lazlo Almasi Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Where to look-- Corvair go to: http://www.maddyhome.com/corvairsrch/ search for Bill Clapp, see results under: Jul 5, 2008 CorvAircraft> Re: KR> Who bought my stuff / Bill Clapp flykr2s@ charter.net Jun 22, 2008 CorvAircraft> setting the record straight N56ML@hiwaay.net Mar 7, 2008 CorvAircraft> Issues with Bill Clapp, Long Post- WilliamTCA@a ol.com Mar 9, 2008 Re: CorvAircraft> Enough on the character assassination n56ml@h iwaay.net =0A=0A=0A ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.