Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:06 AM - I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! (Oscar Zuniga)
2. 07:05 AM - Re: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! (hvandervoo@aol.com)
3. 08:45 AM - Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
4. 09:05 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Gary Boothe)
5. 09:34 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Silvius)
6. 09:47 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
7. 01:38 PM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Silvius)
8. 03:05 PM - fuel drain locations (Douwe Blumberg)
9. 03:53 PM - Re: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! (Marc Davis)
10. 04:30 PM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Peter W Johnson)
11. 05:42 PM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
12. 06:12 PM - Brodhead Photos (Bill Church)
13. 07:03 PM - Re: fuel drain locations (gcardinal)
14. 07:42 PM - Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Oscar Zuniga)
15. 07:58 PM - Re: Brodhead Photos (Gary Boothe)
16. 08:31 PM - Re: Brodhead Photos (Pieti Lowell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! |
Marc;
I love "stray dogs" and I'd say you got one. I think strays turn out to be more
affectionate, better companions, better behaved, and have better health than
many pedigreed pooches- and the same goes for airplanes. It's the strays that
seem to fly more and give their owners more satisfaction without fussing over
little scratches and imperfections.
I wonder why your airplane would be any more tail-heavy than any other? It does
seem that the lower longerons are broken at the tailwheel mount, maybe the result
of the tail heaviness (ya think?)- but nothing back there seems to be very
odd or different. The fittings and everything else seem to be pretty standard,
the airplane looks to be square and mostly in rig. I would say that the
warped ailerons may be that way due to the covering job, but you should still
be able to straighten them out once you get the fabric off. No electrics, no
gadgets, seems like a simple airplane and everything is there, ready for restoration.
I like the prospects that this airplane shows, but it's going to take some cleaning
up and re-fitting. Who is it that says "the Pietenpol is slow, but the sky
is patient", or something like that? Same goes for the job that is ahead for
you...
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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| Subject: | Re: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! |
Marc,
Congratulations on your new project.
You have some work ahead of you, to get it cleaned up and in good
working order.
Check everything carefully against the plans, each builder has their
own interpretation on how to build it.
Now the only question remains is; which Wednesday
Good luck.
Hans
-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Davis <marcs_listreading@hotmail.com>
Sent: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:54 am
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo!
I thought about moving the wing, and may do it. It would make it
harder for me to get in and out of the plane.
I did measure the Fuselage length and I have the short fuselage
(Improved 1933 plans, and 161 and 1/4").
I see that Chuck Gantzer (http://nx770cg.com/) moved the engine forward
when faced with the same problem.
I'm planning to email him to see ifhim plane has problems recovering
from a slip as BHP is reported to have suggested.
Maybe I should put a 3 blade constant speed prop on to help balance the
plane. (just joking).
I also noticed that the both elevators are warped, so I will have to
rebuildthose. Much of the hardware on the plane is of the hardware
store verity so that will have to be fixed. And the tail wiresare a
but odd so I'll have to look at those. Hmmm.. Should be flying
Wednesday.
Thanks
Marc
=0
D
From: zharvey@bellsouth.net
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo!
Marc, moving the wing aft may be a better way to go rather than a
longer motor mount. Worked very well for me. I would suggest you take
a deep breath and don't do anything for a while. Once you have
itemized what you want to do I would put it out on this list for
discussion. So much knowledge here. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Just my thoughts
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Marc Davis
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo!
Hello All
Well I've had the plans for some time and followed the list off and on
but, a piet came for sale on
craigslist and I had to jump.
Here are a few photos of it.
http://picasaweb.google.com/sandy.n.marc/Pietenpol
It has two problems (at least) The tail wheel was poorly installed and
I think the two lower longerons are broken.
The plane had a corvair at first and later had a a65 installed. With
the a65 it was VERY aft CG. The elevator was about50%deflected in
level flight and that way with 50 lbs of lead bolted to the engine
mount.
I don't know what the fuselage length is
but I will measure tonight. I
assume I will have to build a longer motor mount.
Once I have the tail uncovered I will be looking for suggestions un how
to improve things.
I am not buying the motor or prop with the plane because I have a
couple a65's already.
I'll have more photos and more questions later
Marc
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| Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there are some specs.
to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use with the Corvair engine.
Anyone make and use these items, or are there other, (better?) ways to do this?
Message 4
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| Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Michael,
There are certainly alternatives. If you haven't done so yet, go to
www.flycorvair.com <http://www.flycorvair.com/> . William Wynn sells hubs,
but also provides drawings in his manual, for those who wish not to buy
them. If you are interested in the Corvair, you will certainly want to
peruse his web sight.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there are some
specs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use with the
Corvair engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are there other,
(better?) ways to do this?
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
http://www.flycorvair.com/products.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 10:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there
are some specs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use
with the Corvair engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are there
other, (better?) ways to do this?
Message 6
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| Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
I have been to that site, but haven't spent much time in it. I would like t
o make my own parts, just curious if there are any "as printed" users that
have an opinion on the print parts.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Michael,
-
There are certainly alternatives. If you haven=92t done so yet, go to www.f
lycorvair.com. William Wynn sells hubs, but also provides drawings in his m
anual, for those who wish not to buy them. If you are interested in the Cor
vair, you will certainly want to peruse his web sight.
-
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down=85)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
-
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there are some spe
cs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use with the Corvair
engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are there other, (better?) ways
to do this? - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Michael:
Definitely get the William Wynne manual for the conversion. It walks you
through the "modern" conversion steps. The original Corvair conversion
as per B H Pietenpol pretty much hangs the engine as is from the car
with no real modification and retains the original squirrel cage blower.
Taking that off is worth quite a few HP. Also the right cam gets you a
bit more. The WW manual has all the right steps and includes the drawing
for the prop hub if you wish to whittle your own. It also includes
directions and contacts for all the other bits and manuals you will
need.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I have been to that site, but haven't spent much time in it. I
would like to make my own parts, just curious if there are any "as
printed" users that have an opinion on the print parts.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Date: Tuesday, July 29, 2008, 12:01 PM
Michael,
There are certainly alternatives. If you haven=92t done so
yet, go to www.flycorvair.com. William Wynn sells hubs, but also
provides drawings in his manual, for those who wish not to buy them. If
you are interested in the Corvair, you will certainly want to peruse his
web sight.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down=85)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:43 AM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that
there are some specs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to
use with the Corvair engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are
there other, (better?) ways to do this?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 8
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| Subject: | fuel drain locations |
Hi everybody.
I've built my centersection tank with a flat bottom to maximize the
capacity. I've placed two large sumps with drains on opposite corners, rear
left and front right with the bottom sloping slightly towards them.
I've been wondering however, if I should have installed another feed in the
front left corner. The condition I'm worried about is landing with low fuel
level and having to hold left wing down. In this condition it's possible
that fuel won't get to the other drains. It's' really not a problem adding
another drain and line.
I'm probably overthinking this. Watching Piets land all weekend, during
approach and landing the nose down attitude is really pretty level, and in
this case the rear left sump would catch plenty.
All thoughts are appreciated as I'm really rabid about fuel flow problems.
Thanks
Douwe
Message 9
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| Subject: | I just bought a Piet. Wahoo! |
Well this piet fall in that category. I'll have to look everything over.
The wood work and welding looks good.
Some of the hardware look suspect so I'll replace it.
In looking at the photos on West Coast Piet web page=2C it seems like seve
ral of the a65 piet's are longer between the front cockpit and the firewall
. They also seems to have a longer motor mount. Mine are both quite short
.
I think this is the reason for the aft CG. More time with a tape measure a
nd some scales will tell.
I believe the longerons are broken because of the way the tail wheel is mou
nted.
The forward end of the spring is located at the last station. This puts th
e back spring mount
half way between the last station and the tailpost. That put a lot of bend
ing force on the longerons.
The aft CG didn't help either. I'll post some photos when I have the fabri
c off.
Marc
> From: taildrags@hotmail.com> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Subject: P
ietenpol-List: I just bought a Piet. Wahoo!> Date: Tue=2C 29 Jul 2008 08:03
hotmail.com>> > > Marc=3B> > I love "stray dogs" and I'd say you got one. I
think strays turn out to be more affectionate=2C better companions=2C bett
er behaved=2C and have better health than many pedigreed pooches- and the s
ame goes for airplanes. It's the strays that seem to fly more and give thei
r owners more satisfaction without fussing over little scratches and imperf
ections.> > I wonder why your airplane would be any more tail-heavy than an
y other? It does seem that the lower longerons are broken at the tailwheel
mount=2C maybe the result of the tail heaviness (ya think?)- but nothing ba
ck there seems to be very odd or different. The fittings and everything els
e seem to be pretty standard=2C the airplane looks to be square and mostly
in rig. I would say that the warped ailerons may be that way due to the cov
ering job=2C but you should still be able to straighten them out once you g
et the fabric off. No electrics=2C no gadgets=2C seems like a simple airpla
ne and everything is there=2C ready for restoration.> > I like the prospect
s that this airplane shows=2C but it's going to take some cleaning up and r
e-fitting. Who is it that says "the Pietenpol is slow=2C but the sky is pat
ient"=2C or something like that? Same goes for the job that is ahead for yo
u...> > Oscar Zuniga> Air Camper NX41CC> San Antonio=2C TX> mailto: taildra
==> > >
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger.
http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_mess
enger2_072008
Message 10
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| Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Michael,
I made my prop hub to WW's manual. Works a treat but if you use a Warp Drive
prop you may want to make the drive pins shorter so the Warp Drive can sit
flush on the hub.
Peter
Wonthaggi Australia
<http://www.cpc-world.com/> http://www.cpc-world.com
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, 30 July 2008 2:44 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I have been to that site, but haven't spent much time in it. I would like to
make my own parts, just curious if there are any "as printed" users that
have an opinion on the print parts.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Michael,
There are certainly alternatives. If you haven't done so yet, go to
<http://www.flycorvair.com/> www.flycorvair.com. William Wynn sells hubs,
but also provides drawings in his manual, for those who wish not to buy
them. If you are interested in the Corvair, you will certainly want to
peruse his web sight.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there are some
specs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use with the
Corvair engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are there other,
(better?) ways to do this?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Copy that, I'll look into it.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Michael Silvius <silvius@gwi.net> wrote:
From: Michael Silvius <silvius@gwi.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Michael:
-
Definitely get the William Wynne manual for the conversion. It walks you th
rough the "modern" conversion steps. The original Corvair conversion as per
B H Pietenpol pretty much hangs the engine as is from the car with no real
modification and retains the original squirrel cage blower. Taking that of
f is worth-quite a few HP. Also the right cam gets you a bit more.-The
WW manual has all the right steps and includes the drawing for the prop hub
if you wish to-whittle your own. It also includes directions and contact
s for all the other bits and manuals you will need.
-
Michael
-
-
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 11:43 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I have been to that site, but haven't spent much time in it. I would like t
o make my own parts, just curious if there are any "as printed" users that
have an opinion on the print parts.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
From: Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
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Michael,
-
There are certainly alternatives. If you haven=92t done so yet, go to www.f
lycorvair.com. William Wynn sells hubs, but also provides drawings in his m
anual, for those who wish not to buy them. If you are interested in the Cor
vair, you will certainly want to peruse his web sight.
-
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down=85)
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 8:43 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
-
I see in the plans that I got from the Piet. family that there are some spe
cs. to make a prop. hub, shaft, spud, washer, etc. to use with the Corvair
engine. Anyone make and use these items, or are there other, (better?) ways
to do this?
- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -
" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenp
ol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
Message 12
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For those who couldn't make it, I've posted a few shots I snapped at this year's
gathering at Brodhead. They can be viewed here:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=331
Bill C.
P.S. If the link doesn't work, just go to www.mykitplane.com, then go to Photo gallery, then scroll down the page to my Albums and pick Brodhead 2008.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195671#195671
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: fuel drain locations |
If it is easy enough to add another drain line then the peace of mind will
be worth the effort.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douwe Blumberg" <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 5:00 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: fuel drain locations
> <douweblumberg@earthlink.net>
>
> Hi everybody.
>
> I've built my centersection tank with a flat bottom to maximize the
> capacity. I've placed two large sumps with drains on opposite corners,
> rear
> left and front right with the bottom sloping slightly towards them.
>
> I've been wondering however, if I should have installed another feed in
> the
> front left corner. The condition I'm worried about is landing with low
> fuel
> level and having to hold left wing down. In this condition it's possible
> that fuel won't get to the other drains. It's' really not a problem
> adding
> another drain and line.
>
> I'm probably overthinking this. Watching Piets land all weekend, during
> approach and landing the nose down attitude is really pretty level, and in
> this case the rear left sump would catch plenty.
>
> All thoughts are appreciated as I'm really rabid about fuel flow problems.
>
> Thanks
>
> Douwe
>
>
>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Mike;
Doesn't look to me like anybody actually answered your question about the differences
between the two hubs (Pietenpol and Wynne) for the Corvair conversion,
so I'll throw in my two cents' worth and see if I can add anything.
I have the Pietenpol drawings and the hub sheets are dated November of 1972. The
material indicated for the hub is "aluminum casting". The design pioneered
the use of a "safety shaft" through the center of the hub into a threaded 3/4"
deep bore in the center of the crankshaft end (nose). The safety shaft is called
out to be a 5" long, 1" dia. 4130 or 4140 steel rod, or 1" dia. by .250"
wall 4130 steel tube, threaded 18 threads to the inch. The hub is mounted to
the crankshaft flange using standard Chevy 11/32" capscrews, 1" long. This requires
that the holes in the hub be bored very deep into it and that a long,
thinwall socket be used to tighten them. The flange itself has a standard bolt
pattern and is .438" thick at the prop flange. Overall length is given as 2.875".
I say all of this to contrast this hub to the Wynne hub, which is quite a bit beefier
but is obviously an adaptation and improvement on Mr. Pietenpol's hub.
It is 3.5" long with a 1.1" thick prop flange, and is machined from 2024 aluminum,
but William says it could be made from 6061. William's design uses a safety
shaft that is 6" long because the hub is a bit heavier, longer, and stouter-
and the safety shaft threads 1" into the crank nose rather than 3/4" as in
the Pietenpol. The threads are 14 threads per inch (coarser than the Pietenpol).
While the Pietenpol hub body is slightly tapered, the Wynne design is straight,
again making it beefier. William's preferred method of mounting to the
crank flange is through the use of what William calls "hybrid studs", which
are threaded with the Chevy 11/32" on one end and a more standard 3/8-24 thread
on the nut end that holds the hub to the crank flange.
Here's what William says about the Pietenpol hub in his manual, of which I have
three different editions dating back more than 10 years: "This method was pioneered
by Bernie [sic] Pietenpol in the early 1960s. Although I know of no failures
of Bernie's way of doing it, my method is a little different and uses
different materials, but the concept is the same." He also says, "The Pietenpol
method is brought up for technical reference only. If you are building an
exact replica of Bernie's engine, his son Don is the best source of information
on it. Years ago, a number of cast aluminum hubs were made to Bernie's drawings.
Some of these are still floating around for sale. These are light duty
units suited only to the modest flying done by Pietenpols.".
My take-away: make your hub using the Pietenpol or the Wynne drawings, but ALWAYS
use a safety shaft and ALWAYS use at least 6061 aluminum, NOT any cast material.
To my non-machinist's eye, the two hubs require about the same amount of
machine work to produce but the Wynne hub has no tapers to cut and is stronger
in some important areas, and is a little less than an inch or so longer.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 15
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Bill,
Thanks for the pictures for us Less Fortunates.
Question: Does anyone have a collection of the interesting fuselage art from
Piets?
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 6:11 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Photos
For those who couldn't make it, I've posted a few shots I snapped at this
year's gathering at Brodhead. They can be viewed here:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGalleryList2.cfm?AlbumID=331
Bill C.
P.S. If the link doesn't work, just go to www.mykitplane.com, then go to
Photo gallery, then scroll down the page to my Albums and pick Brodhead
2008.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195671#195671
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Brodhead Photos |
Hi Bill.
I'm the guy that changes engines quite often, Last year was a Lambert, now it is
on Frank Pavliga's good looking Piet My Super Ford B engine has the 76"X57"
Lambert prop, turning the same RPM, Maybe you saw the Blue Piet with a Riblett
612 fly. By the way Frank has flown the Lambert and said that it clears grass
in 150 feet, and flys hands off. I'm new around this neck of the woods, if you
have any questions give me a shout'Have never missed a Piet fly-in without a
Piet since the number one.
Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195692#195692
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