Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 04:58 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
2. 05:28 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Kip and Beth Gardner)
3. 05:34 AM - Re: Re: Brodhead Photos (Bill Church)
4. 05:36 AM - Re: Brodhead Photos (H RULE)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: Waldo Pepper - One More Time (Phillips, Jack)
6. 06:07 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Silvius)
7. 06:50 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Bill Church)
8. 06:59 AM - Re: Riblett install (Pieti Lowell)
9. 07:28 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
10. 07:49 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
11. 07:50 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (John Recine)
12. 08:18 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
13. 09:08 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (John Recine)
14. 09:14 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Bill Church)
15. 10:06 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
16. 10:11 AM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Perez)
17. 01:09 PM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Michael Silvius)
18. 02:41 PM - Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (Bill Church)
19. 03:10 PM - Re: Re: Riblett install (Ken Chambers)
20. 04:26 PM - Re: Waldo Pepper - One More Time (Gene & Tammy)
21. 04:57 PM - Re: Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans (John Recine)
22. 04:59 PM - Tail assembly (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
23. 06:32 PM - Re: Tail assembly (Richard Schreiber)
24. 07:34 PM - Re: Tail assembly (bcharvet@bellsouth.net)
25. 10:03 PM - Re: Tail assembly ()
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Thanks Oscar, a very well written responce. IF I decide to do the Corvair,
I will have to get these mentioned books. I see they are quite pricy, but w
hat others are available?- Machining either hub won't be an issue, I just
wanted to get the best suited part that I could make that has already been
proven. (Rather then make up my own fron scratch.) Mine will more then lik
ely be 6061-T6 aluminum. Nothing has been decided...just gathering intel. a
nd you have been of great help.
--- On Tue, 7/29/08, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
<taildrags@hotmail.com>
Mike;
Doesn't look to me like anybody actually answered your question about the
differences between the two hubs (Pietenpol and Wynne) for the Corvair
conversion, so I'll throw in my two cents' worth and see if I can add
anything.
I have the Pietenpol drawings and the hub sheets are dated November of 1972
.
The material indicated for the hub is "aluminum casting". The design
pioneered the use of a "safety shaft" through the center of the hub
into a threaded 3/4" deep bore in the center of the crankshaft end (nose).
The safety shaft is called out to be a 5" long, 1" dia. 4130 or 4140
steel rod, or 1" dia. by .250" wall 4130 steel tube, threaded 18
threads to the inch. The hub is mounted to the crankshaft flange using sta
ndard
Chevy 11/32" capscrews, 1" long. This requires that the holes in the
hub be bored very deep into it and that a long, thinwall socket be used to
tighten them. The flange itself has a standard bolt pattern and is .438"
thick at the prop flange. Overall length is given as 2.875".
I say all of this to contrast this hub to the Wynne hub, which is quite a b
it
beefier but is obviously an adaptation and improvement on Mr. Pietenpol's
hub. It is 3.5" long with a 1.1" thick prop flange, and is machined
from 2024 aluminum, but William says it could be made from 6061. William's
design uses a safety shaft that is 6" long because the hub is a bit
heavier, longer, and stouter- and the safety shaft threads 1" into the
crank nose rather than 3/4" as in the Pietenpol. The threads are 14
threads per inch (coarser than the Pietenpol). While the Pietenpol hub bod
y is
slightly tapered, the Wynne design is straight, again making it beefier.
William's preferred method of mounting to the crank flange is through the
use of what William calls "hybrid studs", which are threaded with the
Chevy 11/32" on one end and a more standard 3/8-24 thread on the nut end
that holds the hub to the crank flange.
Here's what William says about the Pietenpol hub in his manual, of which I
have three different editions dating back more than 10 years: "This method
was pioneered by Bernie [sic] Pietenpol in the early 1960s. Although I kno
w of
no failures of Bernie's way of doing it, my method is a little different an
d
uses different materials, but the concept is the same." He also says,
"The Pietenpol method is brought up for technical reference only. If you
are building an exact replica of Bernie's engine, his son Don is the best
source of information on it. Years ago, a number of cast aluminum hubs wer
e
made to Bernie's drawings. Some of these are still floating around for
sale. These are light duty units suited only to the modest flying done by
Pietenpols.".
My take-away: make your hub using the Pietenpol or the Wynne drawings, but
ALWAYS use a safety shaft and ALWAYS use at least 6061 aluminum, NOT any ca
st
material. To my non-machinist's eye, the two hubs require about the same
amount of machine work to produce but the Wynne hub has no tapers to cut an
d is
stronger in some important areas, and is a little less than an inch or so
longer.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Mike,
No, William Wynne is basically the only person out there doing
Corvair work & although it is a chronic problem getting in touch with
him & getting him to ship parts, his work - both intellectual, and
the parts he makes - are top-notch.
In a broader sense, I feel a need to warn you against the "that's too
pricey" attitude. First, you will be spreading your work out over a
number of years in most cases, so there will only be a few times when
you will be putting out large amounts for big-ticket items - the rest
is spread out over time.
Secondly, I've found that paying for knowledge is the best value -
you will avoid costly mistakes - so suck it up & buy the best
information available if you indeed have to pay for it. In addition
to Wynne's manual, you should also buy the Tony Bingelis books from
EAA if you have not already done so.
Finally, in terms of keeping costs down - learn to scrounge! There
are good sources of lumber & plywood out there that are considerably
cheaper than the aircraft suppliers & just as good for our purposes.
Also, don't be afraid to let other builders, airport owners & pilots
know what you are doing & don't be shy about mentioning things you
need. Many of these folks are good leads to used parts & many are
generous to a fault. I've been blessed with a complete Corvair
engine, machine work on the Corvair, a set of Cleveland wheels, and
a left-hand prop blank, just to mention a few things, simply because
people who love flying knew what I was doing and gave these things to
me.
In a sense, you CAN build a Piet all by your lonesome, but it becomes
much more affordable if you intentionally make it a 'community'
project. At the rate I'm going, my payback to most of these folks
will probably be giving their grandchildren rides at some date far in
the future!
Kip Gardner
On Jul 30, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
> Thanks Oscar, a very well written responce. IF I decide to do the
> Corvair, I will have to get these mentioned books. I see they are
> quite pricy, but what others are available? Machining either hub
> won't be an issue, I just wanted to get the best suited part that I
> could make that has already been proven. (Rather then make up my
> own fron scratch.) Mine will more then likely be 6061-T6 aluminum.
> Nothing has been decided...just gathering intel. and you have been
> of great help.
>
>
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead Photos |
Hi Lowell,
Thanks for the clarification regarding the new engine on your Piet. I have
corrected the description that goes with the photo. As I understand it, the
Ford B was an improved 1932 version of the Model A engine, producing about
25% more horsepower, among other improvements. Did I get that right? I did
see your Piet fly, and it seemed to be zipping through the sky. I guess that
would be partly attributed to the powerplant/propellor and partly to the
airfoil. I had heard that Frank had installed last year's Lambert on his
Piet, and was really impressed when I saw a photo of it a few weeks ago. I
had hoped he would be able to bring it to Brodhead this year.
I would have to guess that you must be the only person on earth that could
claim to have attended all 33 Brodhead fly-ins with a Pietenpol. What an
accomplishment.
Bill C.
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Subject: | Re: Brodhead Photos |
Great pics;thanks very much!Wish I could have been there.=0A=0A=0A=0A-----
Original Message ----=0AFrom: Bill Church <billspiet@sympatico.ca>=0ATo: pi
etenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Tuesday, July 29, 2008 9:10:31 PM=0ASubj
ect: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead Photos=0A=0A--> Pietenpol-List message posted
by: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>=0A=0AFor those who couldn't mak
e it, I've posted a few shots I snapped at this year's gathering at Brodhea
d. They can be viewed here:=0A=0Ahttp://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoGall
eryList2.cfm?AlbumID=331=0A=0ABill C.=0A=0AP.S.- If the link doesn't wo
rk, just go to www.mykitplane.com, then go to Photo gallery, then scroll do
wn the page to my Albums and pick Brodhead 2008.=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this to
pic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195671#
=========================0A
============
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Subject: | Waldo Pepper - One More Time |
The Great Waldo Pepper is available through Amazon. New or Used. No
need to risk copyright infingement.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
Verthein
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:28 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper - One More Time
<minoxphotographer@yahoo.com>
I haven't seen this movie since it was new in the theatre probably 30
years ago. My quest to find a copy turned up nothing locally.
Then, it turns out my Mom had it on VHS. She actually wrote an article
about it 25 years or so ago. Since my folks don't even HAVE a VHS
player anymore, she gave it to me.
I have dubbed it to DVD. If there is anyone on the list who hasn't seen
the movie who would like to I sell send a DVD to anyone who wants one
for no charge at all. Just don't expect any fancy packaging.
And yes, to those of you with scruples who worry about such things I'm
sure this is some horrid copyright violation. but since it's not
available for purchase new, used copies are hard to come by (and often
expensive) and I really doubt anyone at the studio, or any of the
performers gets much for it when a used copy changes hands at some
insane collector price anyway, and heck, I'm offering them FREE, I'm not
gonna worry about it. If Mr. Redford would like to call me and ask for
his share, more power to him.
So, that's the offer. Probably best to e-mail me of list if you'd like
one:
minoxphotographer@yahoo.com
Tim in Bovey
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Oscar:
For what it is worth I have an original Pietenpol designed hub with the
deep bolt holes. I paid 25$ for it on eBay with a 4809 crank that I am told
was drilled by Bernard himself. I am no expert but it looks to be turned
from a billet and not cast. I have no proof that is so. Perhaps someone
knows how to check for this. I am not thrilled about the deep bolt holes as
this only leaves les than 5/8ths meat for the original longest Corvair bolts
to hold on, and no way to safety wire the bolts once torqued to speck. I am
aware that a great deal if not all of the holding power comes from the
safety shaft in this design thus the bolts are effectively only under shear
and used for drive purposes. I contemplated making a larger diameter hole
only 3/4 of an inch deep or so, effectively creating a shoulder that would
allow the use of longer bolts with a washer but there really is not enough
meat left and the resulting shoulder would be no more than 1/8th in width.
I am told the original hub as designed by BH Pietenpol is available
undrilled from Vi so it is possible to drill and use WW's hybrid studs
without the deep bolt holes.
Michael in Maine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
>
>
> Mike;
>
> Doesn't look to me like anybody actually answered your question about the
differences between the two hubs (Pietenpol and Wynne) for the Corvair
conversion, so I'll throw in my two cents' worth and see if I can add
anything.
>
Message 7
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Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
I've got to agree with Kip regarding the "that's too pricey" attitude. Some
complain that the Pietenpol plans are expensive. They say "Why should I
spend $150 for a set of 75 year-old plans? It doesn't cost that much to
print". Some think William Wynne's conversion manual is expensive at $59
(including shipping). Yet many of those same people faithfully shell out $40
(or more) every month for cable TV or cell phones (that's every month, which
adds up to about $500 per year). A few tanks of gas in your average vehicle
will get you the price of a set of plans. Two hours at the movie theatre
with a companion is going to set you back half the price of a manual. Add
popcorn and drinks and you can get the whole manual. In the overall picture
a couple of hundred dollars is probably less than 2% of the total cost of
the entire plane. In my mind, this isn't the place to look for savings. If
you are just curious about what the plans look like, or what exactly is
contained in William's manual then, yes they do seem a bit expensive. But if
you are seriously considering building either, the price is quite
reasonable. Just try building either without the plans and see how far you
get. One has to remember that when you buy plans or a manual, you're not
just paying for the paper it's printed on - you're paying the author for
sharing his/her expertise and knowledge that they developed over years of
hard work.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving a buck wherever it makes sense. I'm a
bit of a scrounger, and so far I have very little money invested in my
project (lots of time, though), and I will always be on the lookout for safe
ways to keep costs down, but when it comes to buying plans or manuals, I
prefer to make sure that the money goes to the ones that deserve it. That's
why I bought my plans directly from the Pietenpol family, and I bought a
conversion manual directly from William Wynne. I still have not committed to
going the Corvair route, and will need to decide soon, but I do not regret
buying the manual, even if I decide to use another powerplant.
Bill C.
(stepping down off the soapbox, now)
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Riblett install |
Hi Curious:
Couldn't help noticing your concern, I have been in touch with H Riblett since
the very early 90s and I sent him the Piet wing specs, he then gave me a complete
overview of, Piet, 4412(Luscomb) and two recommended Riblett designs, GA 30-
U- 612, plus a thicker design, My second Piet had a 4412, clipped 2 ft. A great
performer. When I installed a Werner 145 on my Blue Piet it would only go
105 MPH @ 80% throttle, I go much faster with the Werner in another airplane,
so I decided to go a head and build the 612,( not to be confused with the 612
in Riblett's book ) I clipped the wing two feet, made a 3 piece, 6" hi spars,
added the spacer on the spar to rib, and built it the same as the Pitt. It is
close to 5/8" higher and has a 3/8 undercamber.
With testing the comparison of the Piet to the Riblett wings, using the Lambert
90HP engine, there is a very big difference. Even with the shorter wing, you
wont believe the glide ratio, 42MPH stall, 600 FPM climb, and flat out speed 108
MPH. The Piet wing has an air separation on the under side at the rear 20%
of the wing, as per Riblitts computer read-out.
By the way the wing will pull close to 2.5 Gs at 120 MPH at the bottom of a loop.
Got a lot of answers, if you need an opinion.
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195735#195735
Message 9
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Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Wow, LOT's of assumptions there!- As I could go into the whole "You don't
know me" speech and turn this thread into a useless waste of time and effo
rt, I won't. My quest is to learn what I can before making any final decisi
ons. I have been involved with this whole world of plane building for a who
pping 2 weeks! Not only am I gathering info. on things that are useful, I a
m gathering knowledge of the personalities on this board. It's all good. Se
ems like I hit a nerve with the pricey book comment, maybe it is worth it,
maybe not. That is why I am here...to find out what is what. How am I to kn
ow that this is the ONLY good book on this type of subject? How am I to kno
w there isn't others with the same info for 1/2 the price? Two weeks into t
he project and all I want is info.- This seems to be a good place to get
it...attitudes aside. I appreciate the responses, it's all good info.
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I've got to agree with Kip regarding the "that's too pricey" attitude.-So
me complain that the Pietenpol plans are expensive. They say "Why should I
spend $150 for a set of 75 year-old plans? It doesn't cost that much to pri
nt". Some think William Wynne's conversion manual is expensive at $59 (incl
uding shipping). Yet many of those same people faithfully shell out $40 (or
more)-every month for cable TV or cell phones (that's every month, which
adds up to about $500 per year). A few tanks of gas in-your average vehi
cle-will get you the price of a set of plans. Two hours at the movie thea
tre with a companion is going to set you back-half the price of a manual.
Add popcorn and drinks and you can get the whole manual. In the overall pi
cture a couple of hundred dollars is probably less-than 2% of the total c
ost of the entire plane.-In my mind, this isn't the place to look for sav
ings. If you are just curious about what the plans look like, or what
exactly is contained in William's manual then, yes they do seem a bit expe
nsive. But if you are seriously considering building either, the price is q
uite reasonable. Just try building either without the plans and see how far
you get. One has to remember that when you buy plans or a manual, you're n
ot just paying for the paper it's printed on - you're paying the author for
sharing his/her expertise and knowledge that they developed over years of
hard work.
-
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving a buck wherever it makes sense. I'm
a bit of a scrounger, and so far I have very little money invested in my pr
oject (lots of time, though), and I will always be on the lookout for safe
ways to keep costs down, but when it comes to buying plans or manuals, I pr
efer to make sure that the money goes to the ones that deserve it. That's w
hy I bought my plans directly from the Pietenpol family, and I bought a con
version manual directly-from William Wynne. I still have not committed to
going the Corvair route, and will need to decide soon, but I do not regret
buying the manual, even if I decide to use another powerplant.
-
Bill C.
(stepping down off the soapbox, now)
-
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Yeah. Still think it's pricey.
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net> wrote:
From: Kip and Beth Gardner <kipandbeth@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Mike,
No, William Wynne is basically the only person out there doing Corvair work
& although it is a chronic problem getting in touch with him & getting him
to ship parts, his work - both intellectual, and the parts he makes - are
top-notch. -
In a broader sense, I feel a need to warn you against the "that's too price
y" attitude. -First, you will be spreading your work out over a number of
years in most cases, so there will only be a few times when you will be pu
tting out large amounts for big-ticket items - the rest is spread out over
time. -
Secondly, I've found that paying for knowledge is the best value - you will
avoid costly mistakes - so suck it up & buy the best information available
if you indeed have to pay for it. In addition to Wynne's manual, -you sh
ould also buy the Tony Bingelis books from EAA if you have not already done
so. -
Finally, in terms of keeping costs down - learn to scrounge! -There are g
ood sources of lumber & plywood out there that are considerably cheaper tha
n the aircraft suppliers & just as good for our purposes. -Also, don't be
afraid to let other builders, airport owners & pilots know what you are do
ing & don't be shy about mentioning things you need. -Many of these folks
are good leads to used parts & many are generous to a fault. -I've been
blessed with a complete Corvair engine, machine work on the Corvair, -a s
et of Cleveland wheels, and a left-hand prop blank, just to mention a few t
hings, simply because people who love flying knew what I was doing and gave
these things to me. -
In a sense, you CAN build a Piet all by your lonesome, but it becomes much
more affordable if you intentionally make it a 'community' project. -At t
he rate I'm going, my payback to most of these folks will probably be givin
g their grandchildren rides at some date far in the future!
Kip Gardner
On Jul 30, 2008, at 7:55 AM, Michael Perez wrote:
Thanks Oscar, a very well written responce. IF I decide to do the Corvair,
I will have to get these mentioned books. I see they are quite pricy, but w
hat others are available?- Machining either hub won't be an issue, I just
wanted to get the best suited part that I could make that has already been
proven. (Rather then make up my own fron scratch.) Mine will more then lik
ely be 6061-T6 aluminum. Nothing has been decided...just gathering intel. a
nd you have been of great help.
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
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Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
I have heard good things about that series of books. Those are actually on
my "to purchase" list. You hit the nail on the head...I am looking at all o
ptions and trying to get a game plan in place. No need to buy books not rel
ated to my engine. As I said multiple times, just gathering intel. for pros
pects. It will be some time before I am ready to commit on an engine, but f
or now, I will continue to learn what I can. Thanks for the reply!
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com> wrote:
From: John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Michael
For what its worth I have building for 1 year and 5 months. Over that perio
d I considered most all the engine choices several times and many not on th
e list.
I finally made the decision about a month ago and went with the Lycoming 02
35 for many reasons
Point being you should consider all engine options while you build and deci
de when you get close to defining and constructing your mount. Till then no
need to purchase engine specific books or materials.
You will do well to purchase the Tony bengelis series for solid advice on a
ll the aspects of the build including considerations of engine selection
If you're serious about getting good solid info buy the Bengelis books from
the EAA you will not be disapointed
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Wow, LOT's of assumptions there!=C2- As I could go into the whole "You do
n't know me" speech and turn this thread into a useless waste of time and e
ffort, I won't. My quest is to learn what I can before making any final dec
isions. I have been involved with this whole world of plane building for a
whopping 2 weeks! Not only am I gathering info. on things that are useful,
I am gathering knowledge of the personalities on this board. It's all good.
Seems like I hit a nerve with the pricey book comment, maybe it is worth i
t, maybe not. That is why I am here...to find out what is what. How am I to
know that this is the ONLY good book on this type of subject? How am I to
know there isn't others with the same info for 1/2 the price? Two weeks int
o the project and all I want is info.=C2- This seems to be a good place t
o get it...attitudes aside. I appreciate the responses, it's all good info.
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I've got to agree with Kip regarding the "that's too pricey" attitude.=C2
-Some complain that the Pietenpol plans are expensive. They say "Why shou
ld I spend $150 for a set of 75 year-old plans? It doesn't cost that much t
o print". Some think William Wynne's conversion manual is expensive at $59
(including shipping). Yet many of those same people faithfully shell out $4
0 (or more)=C2-every month for cable TV or cell phones (that's every mont
h, which adds up to about $500 per year). A few tanks of gas in=C2-your a
verage vehicle=C2-will get you the price of a set of plans. Two hours at
the movie theatre with a companion is going to set you back=C2-half the p
rice of a manual. Add popcorn and drinks and you can get the whole manual.
In the overall picture a couple of hundred dollars is probably less=C2-th
an 2% of the total cost of the entire plane.=C2-In my mind, this isn't th
e place to look for savings. If you are just curious about what the plans l
ook like, or what
exactly is contained in William's manual then, yes they do seem a bit expe
nsive. But if you are seriously considering building either, the price is q
uite reasonable. Just try building either without the plans and see how far
you get. One has to remember that when you buy plans or a manual, you're n
ot just paying for the paper it's printed on - you're paying the author for
sharing his/her expertise and knowledge that they developed over years of
hard work.
=C2-
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving a buck wherever it makes sense. I'm
a bit of a scrounger, and so far I have very little money invested in my pr
oject (lots of time, though), and I will always be on the lookout for safe
ways to keep costs down, but when it comes to buying plans or manuals, I pr
efer to make sure that the money goes to the ones that deserve it. That's w
hy I bought my plans directly from the Pietenpol family, and I bought a con
version manual directly=C2-from William Wynne. I still have not committed
to going the Corvair route, and will need to decide soon, but I do not reg
ret buying the manual, even if I decide to use another powerplant.
=C2-
Bill C.
(stepping down off the soapbox, now)
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
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Message 14
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Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Hey Mike,
Please let me clarify my post.
My comments were not directed at you, personally. I would not do that on a
public forum like this. They were simply a general comment on statements
that I have seen posted here on the list from time to time. I hope that my
comments have not offended you. That was not my intent. As I said, they were
not directed at any one individual.
You are right in saying that "You don't know me". I don't. And vice-versa.
But as far as my comments go, that point is irrelevant, since my comments
were not directed at you. However, from the posts you have made so far, it
sounds like you have a good knowledge of machining, and have access to
equipment that will be of assistance to you as you progress with your
project. You are asking lots of questions. That is a smart move. Some dive
into a project without gathering the necessary information to make an
informed decision. There is a lot of experience held by many members of this
list, and most are willing and eager to share what works and what doesn't
work. This is a friendly bunch of people. If you ask a question you will
usually get an answer. I've been at this project for about five years since
I started thinking that maybe I could actually build and fly one of these
wonderful old planes. I'm still gathering information and making decisions
(and changing my mind) as I build, and I might even keep doing that after
it's finished. I don't claim to have all the answers, but if I've got
something to share that I think is valuable, I'll do it. That was the point
of my post. Period.
I get the feeling from your comments that we might have gotten off on the
wrong foot. I hope not.
Keep asking questions and gathering info. If you would prefer not to hear my
comments, just say so, and I'll keep my mouth (or maybe that should be
keyboard) shut.
Bill C.
Message 15
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Subject: | Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Not an issue at all Bill. Please continue to chime in with any info.comment
s you may have. I do not know it all, and am always willing to listen to wh
at others have to offer...may not agree with it, but will listen.
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Hey Mike,
Please let me clarify my post.
My comments were not directed at you, personally. I would not do that on a
public forum like this. They were simply a general comment on statements th
at I have seen posted here on the list from time to time. I hope that my-
comments have not offended you. That was not my intent. As I said, they we
re not directed at any one individual.
You are right in saying that "You don't know me". I don't. And vice-versa.
- But as far as my comments go, that point is irrelevant, since my commen
ts were not directed at you. However, from the posts you have made so far,
it sounds like you have a good knowledge of machining, and have access to e
quipment that will be of assistance to you as you progress with your projec
t. You are asking lots of questions. That is a smart move. Some dive into a
project without gathering the necessary information to make an informed de
cision. There is a lot of experience held by many members of this list, and
most are willing and eager to share what works and what doesn't work. This
is a friendly bunch of people. If you ask a question you will usually get
an answer. I've been at this project for about five years since I started t
hinking that maybe I could actually build and fly one of these wonderful ol
d planes. I'm still gathering information and making decisions (and
changing my mind) as I build, and I might even keep doing that after it's
finished. I don't claim to have all the answers, but if I've got something
to share that I think is valuable, I'll do it. That was the point of my pos
t. Period.
I get the feeling from your comments that we might have gotten off on the w
rong foot. I hope not.
Keep asking questions and gathering info. If you would prefer not to hear m
y comments, just say so, and I'll keep my mouth (or maybe that should be ke
yboard) shut.
Bill C.
Message 16
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
This is the type of info I am after. As I said, it will be some time before
I need to have an engine, but if I can get some issues cleared up prior to
that, I would like to do so. I have heard and was under the impression tha
t the Corvair engine can be readily found, relativly cheap, and converted
=C2- for aircraft use. I assumed, which I should not, that I could do mos
t, if not all of the "conversion work" myself, again saving money. However,
if in the long run it will cost almost as much as a new engine, then I wou
ld like to find out more. I imagine that these Lycoming engines are on thei
r website so I can get more info. on them?
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com> wrote:
From: John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
You're welcome. Actually it was Tony that pointed me more towards the lycom
ing.
The idea of spending 5K plus on a subaru or a corvair and still have an aut
o engine as opposed to spending a similar amount and getting a solid AC cer
tified engine. I decided on the lycoming
I am not knocking the others, they do have a certain attraction but I was a
ble to find a lycoming that put me in the same price range
just relating my experience in the great engine quest
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I have heard good things about that series of books. Those are actually on
my "to purchase" list. You hit the nail on the head...I am looking at all o
ptions and trying to get a game plan in place. No need to buy books not rel
ated to my engine. As I said multiple times, just gathering intel. for pros
pects. It will be some time before I am ready to commit on an engine, but f
or now, I will continue to learn what I can. Thanks for the reply!
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com> wrote:
From: John Recine <AmsafetyC@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Michael
For what its worth I have building for 1 year and 5 months. Over that perio
d I considered most all the engine choices several times and many not on th
e list.
I finally made the decision about a month ago and went with the Lycoming 02
35 for many reasons
Point being you should consider all engine options while you build and deci
de when you get close to defining and constructing your mount. Till then no
need to purchase engine specific books or materials.
You will do well to purchase the Tony bengelis series for solid advice on a
ll the aspects of the build including considerations of engine selection
If you're serious about getting good solid info buy the Bengelis books from
the EAA you will not be disapointed
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Wow, LOT's of assumptions there!=C2- As I could go into the whole "You do
n't know me" speech and turn this thread into a useless waste of time and e
ffort, I won't. My quest is to learn what I can before making any final dec
isions. I have been involved with this whole world of plane building for a
whopping 2 weeks! Not only am I gathering info. on things that are useful,
I am gathering knowledge of the personalities on this board. It's all good.
Seems like I hit a nerve with the pricey book comment, maybe it is worth i
t, maybe not. That is why I am here...to find out what is what. How am I to
know that this is the ONLY good book on this type of subject? How am I to
know there isn't others with the same info for 1/2 the price? Two weeks int
o the project and all I want is info.=C2- This seems to be a good place t
o get it...attitudes aside. I appreciate the responses, it's all good info.
--- On Wed, 7/30/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
I've got to agree with Kip regarding the "that's too pricey" attitude.=C2
-Some complain that the Pietenpol plans are expensive. They say "Why shou
ld I spend $150 for a set of 75 year-old plans? It doesn't cost that much t
o print". Some think William Wynne's conversion manual is expensive at $59
(including shipping). Yet many of those same people faithfully shell out $4
0 (or more)=C2-every month for cable TV or cell phones (that's every mont
h, which adds up to about $500 per year). A few tanks of gas in=C2-your a
verage vehicle=C2-will get you the price of a set of plans. Two hours at
the movie theatre with a companion is going to set you back=C2-half the p
rice of a manual. Add popcorn and drinks and you can get the whole manual.
In the overall picture a couple of hundred dollars is probably less=C2-th
an 2% of the total cost of the entire plane.=C2-In my mind, this isn't th
e place to look for savings. If you are just curious about what the plans l
ook like, or what
exactly is contained in William's manual then, yes they do seem a bit expe
nsive. But if you are seriously considering building either, the price is q
uite reasonable. Just try building either without the plans and see how far
you get. One has to remember that when you buy plans or a manual, you're n
ot just paying for the paper it's printed on - you're paying the author for
sharing his/her expertise and knowledge that they developed over years of
hard work.
=C2-
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for saving a buck wherever it makes sense. I'm
a bit of a scrounger, and so far I have very little money invested in my pr
oject (lots of time, though), and I will always be on the lookout for safe
ways to keep costs down, but when it comes to buying plans or manuals, I pr
efer to make sure that the money goes to the ones that deserve it. That's w
hy I bought my plans directly from the Pietenpol family, and I bought a con
version manual directly=C2-from William Wynne. I still have not committed
to going the Corvair route, and will need to decide soon, but I do not reg
ret buying the manual, even if I decide to use another powerplant.
=C2-
Bill C.
(stepping down off the soapbox, now)
=C2- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
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=C5=92'=93-=EF=BD=C3=AC6=C2=B2=C2=BA0=C2=B1=C3-=C2=A1j
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=B0=C25=C2=AB=C3=A2=EF=BD=C2=ABh=C2=AC=C3=B8=C5=BE=C2=B5=C3=A9=C3
=A9=C2=A2R=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=98m=C2=B6=C5=B8=C3=C3=83&j=C3=9A=C3=A8=C5=BE',
r=B0=C25=C2=AB=C3=A2=EF=BD=C2=ABh=C2=AC=C3=B8=C5=BE=C2=B5=C3=A9
=C3=A9=C2=A2R=C3=A2=C2=B2=C3=9F=C3=9A
Message 17
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Michael:
Something to chew on for a while and quite educating.
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/corvair/flexplate/problem.html
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/flights/crank2/
Offered not as a discouragement but this should give you an idea of the
kind of teritory you are geting in to.
Michael in Maine
Message 18
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Mike,
These comments are intended to be "attitude-free", and based on my limited experience.
Take them or leave them.
There are very few NEW aircraft engines available today that are suitable for the
Pietenpol. There is NO NEW aircraft engine suitable for use in the Pietenpol
available for $5,000. A NEW aircraft engine for the Piet will likely run you
$20,000 Plus.
Most builders end up using engines that were actually manufactured about fifty
years ago. These old engines get rebuilt, or overhauled, and are typically good
for up to 2000 hours of service before needing another rebuild. Typically these
are Continental A-65 up to O-200. The bigger the engine, the heavier it is.
You can look for engines on Barnstormers.com and you will likely find a fairly
wide range of prices and states of (dis)repair. A mid-timed engine can be had
relatively cheaply, and provide lots of good service, but unless you know the
engine (and possibly it's previous owner) you can never be sure what you are
getting. For this reason, many builders will pick up a run-out engine for a
thousand bucks or so, and have it overhauled. This will typically end up totalling
$8,000-$10,000 (your actual milage may vary). If you choose to use an engine
like the Lycoming O-235, keep in mind that it is actually oversized for this
application, plus you will have to design your own motormount. The Pietenpol
plans include drawings for proven motormounts for the Ford Model A, Corvair,
and small Continentals. If your plane is built lightly, the Continental A-65
is said to be a perfect engine for the plane. If you build heavy, it will suffer,
performance-wise.
Regarding Corvair conversions, in general, what I have heard is that if you assemble
a Corvair engine, using parts purchased from FlyCorvair, your costs will
total about $5,000. If you wish to buy a fully assembled, zero-timed Corvair
conversion built to William Wynne's method, and using his parts the price will
be about $8,000 (available from VairForce.com) . For about that price you should
also be able to buy a zero-timed Continental. The more work you can do yourself,
the cheaper you will be able to build an engine. The more work you have
to sub out, the more expensive it will be. If you are capable, like Piet builder
PF Beck, you can build your own Corvair conversion for less than $3,000.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195789#195789
Message 19
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Subject: | Re: Riblett install |
Great to hear from you. Seems like a lot of curiosity about this airfoil on
the list. I'm about to start building again after a long layoff and I'm
trying to choose between airfoils.
So here goes: How about the CG range? Does the 612 need the CG forward quite
a bit compared to the original Piet airfoil? If so, is it so much that it
makes light engines like the Continental A-65 more complicated? By
complicated, I mean that the motor mount gets too long or the wings have to
be moved way back.
Are you using the 3/4 inch solid spar?
Increased pitch sensitivity was mentioned at one point. Any thoughts on
that?
Thanks again.
Ken
On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Pieti Lowell <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>wrote:
> Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
>
> Hi Curious:
> Couldn't help noticing your concern, I have been in touch with H Riblett
> since the very early 90s and I sent him the Piet wing specs, he then gave me
> a complete overview of, Piet, 4412(Luscomb) and two recommended Riblett
> designs, GA 30- U- 612, plus a thicker design, My second Piet had a 4412,
> clipped 2 ft. A great performer. When I installed a Werner 145 on my Blue
> Piet it would only go 105 MPH @ 80% throttle, I go much faster with the
> Werner in another airplane, so I decided to go a head and build the 612,(
> not to be confused with the 612 in Riblett's book ) I clipped the wing two
> feet, made a 3 piece, 6" hi spars, added the spacer on the spar to rib, and
> built it the same as the Pitt. It is close to 5/8" higher and has a 3/8
> undercamber.
> With testing the comparison of the Piet to the Riblett wings, using the
> Lambert 90HP engine, there is a very big difference. Even with the shorter
> wing, you wont believe the glide ratio, 42MPH stall, 600 FPM climb, and flat
> out speed 108 MPH. The Piet wing has an air separation on the under side at
> the rear 20% of the wing, as per Riblitts computer read-out.
> By the way the wing will pull close to 2.5 Gs at 120 MPH at the bottom of a
> loop.
> Got a lot of answers, if you need an opinion.
> Pieti Lowell
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195735#195735
>
>
--
Ken Chambers
512-796-1798
Message 20
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Subject: | Re: Waldo Pepper - One More Time |
Jack, are you going to let us know how your trip went and what I missed out
on???
Gene in Tennessee
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:44 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper - One More Time
> <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
>
> The Great Waldo Pepper is available through Amazon. New or Used. No
> need to risk copyright infingement.
>
> Jack Phillips
> NX899JP
> Raleigh, NC
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim
> Verthein
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 9:28 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper - One More Time
>
> <minoxphotographer@yahoo.com>
>
> I haven't seen this movie since it was new in the theatre probably 30
> years ago. My quest to find a copy turned up nothing locally.
>
> Then, it turns out my Mom had it on VHS. She actually wrote an article
> about it 25 years or so ago. Since my folks don't even HAVE a VHS
> player anymore, she gave it to me.
>
> I have dubbed it to DVD. If there is anyone on the list who hasn't seen
> the movie who would like to I sell send a DVD to anyone who wants one
> for no charge at all. Just don't expect any fancy packaging.
>
> And yes, to those of you with scruples who worry about such things I'm
> sure this is some horrid copyright violation. but since it's not
> available for purchase new, used copies are hard to come by (and often
> expensive) and I really doubt anyone at the studio, or any of the
> performers gets much for it when a used copy changes hands at some
> insane collector price anyway, and heck, I'm offering them FREE, I'm not
> gonna worry about it. If Mr. Redford would like to call me and ask for
> his share, more power to him.
>
> So, that's the offer. Probably best to e-mail me of list if you'd like
> one:
>
> minoxphotographer@yahoo.com
>
> Tim in Bovey
>
>
> _________________________________________________
>
> or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
> notify the sender
>
> Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
> Norsk - Portuguese
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 4:05 PM
>
>
Message 21
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Subject: | Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans |
Not too certain the 0235 remark the hp ranges from 108 hp up
The corvair developes 100 to 125 hp as I have seen published by others
How is 108 hp over powering?
Would someone explain that one to me I am not too certain about the math! Yet always
willing to learn the errors of my ways
You should more than likely explain the part about Corvair engines and parts still
being manfactured and the overwhealming supply of new parts available at the
local autzone parts store.
John
John
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Corvair hub on Piet. plans
Mike,
These comments are intended to be "attitude-free", and based on my limited experience.
Take them or leave them.
There are very few NEW aircraft engines available today that are suitable for the
Pietenpol. There is NO NEW aircraft engine suitable for use in the Pietenpol
available for $5,000. A NEW aircraft engine for the Piet will likely run you
$20,000 Plus.
Most builders end up using engines that were actually manufactured about fifty
years ago. These old engines get rebuilt, or overhauled, and are typically good
for up to 2000 hours of service before needing another rebuild. Typically these
are Continental A-65 up to O-200. The bigger the engine, the heavier it is.
You can look for engines on Barnstormers.com and you will likely find a fairly
wide range of prices and states of (dis)repair. A mid-timed engine can be had
relatively cheaply, and provide lots of good service, but unless you know the
engine (and possibly it's previous owner) you can never be sure what you are
getting. For this reason, many builders will pick up a run-out engine for a
thousand bucks or so, and have it overhauled. This will typically end up totalling
$8,000-$10,000 (your actual milage may vary). If you choose to use an engine
like the Lycoming O-235, keep in mind that it is actually oversized for this
application, plus you will have to design your o!
wn motormount. The Pietenpol plans include drawings for proven motormounts for
the Ford Model A, Corvair, and small Continentals. If your plane is built lightly,
the Continental A-65 is said to be a perfect engine for the plane. If you
build heavy, it will suffer, performance-wise.
Regarding Corvair conversions, in general, what I have heard is that if you assemble
a Corvair engine, using parts purchased from FlyCorvair, your costs will
total about $5,000. If you wish to buy a fully assembled, zero-timed Corvair
conversion built to William Wynne's method, and using his parts the price will
be about $8,000 (available from VairForce.com) . For about that price you should
also be able to buy a zero-timed Continental. The more work you can do yourself,
the cheaper you will be able to build an engine. The more work you have
to sub out, the more expensive it will be. If you are capable, like Piet builder
PF Beck, you can build your own Corvair conversion for less than $3,000.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=195789#195789
Message 22
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Members of the list:
-
I am ready to mount my tail section and need some advice. Can anyone advise
what type-or -kind of turnbuckles they are using for the cable connect
ion on the tail section? I have been searching Aircraft Spruce for adjustab
le turnbuckles but find the price on the high side. Don't get me wrong...."
no ten dollar head you get a ten dollar helmet".... guy here. Just wonderin
g the best way to connect the cables with adjustment. What are most of you
all using?
-
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
-
=0A=0A=0A
Message 23
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Ken:
Try B & B aircraft supply for used turnbucles. I think they are about 1/3 the price
aircraft spruce charges. A couple of years ago when I bought mine I think
I paid about $8 a complete turnbuckle assembly
Here is the contact info....
202 S Center
Gardner, KS 66030
(913) 884-5930
They are probably at Oshkosh right now, so I am not sure anyone is maning the phones.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
----- Original Message -----
From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
Sent: 7/30/2008 7:04:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail assembly
Members of the list:
I am ready to mount my tail section and need some advice. Can anyone advise what
type or kind of turnbuckles they are using for the cable connection on the
tail section? I have been searching Aircraft Spruce for adjustable turnbuckles
but find the price on the high side. Don't get me wrong...."no ten dollar head
you get a ten dollar helmet".... guy here. Just wondering the best way to connect
the cables with adjustment. What are most of you all using?
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: Tail assembly |
Message 25
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Subject: | Re: Tail assembly |
I'm using turnbuckles from B&B. Turnbuckles are costly, but what are you
going to do. You might try a salvage yard. We have a airplane salvage
yard here in Sacramento and I was able to scrounge some turnbuckles
there that were cheaper.
Chris Tracy
Sacramento, Ca
Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 6:27 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Tail assembly
Ken:
Try B & B aircraft supply for used turnbucles. I think they are about
1/3 the price aircraft spruce charges. A couple of years ago when I
bought mine I think I paid about $8 a complete turnbuckle assembly
Here is the contact info....
202 S Center
Gardner, KS 66030
(913) 884-5930
They are probably at Oshkosh right now, so I am not sure anyone is
maning the phones.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
----- Original Message -----
From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
To: Pietenpol
Sent: 7/30/2008 7:04:02 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Tail assembly
Members of the list:
I am ready to mount my tail section and need some advice. Can
anyone advise what type or kind of turnbuckles they are using for the
cable connection on the tail section? I have been searching Aircraft
Spruce for adjustable turnbuckles but find the price on the high side.
Don't get me wrong...."no ten dollar head you get a ten dollar
helmet".... guy here. Just wondering the best way to connect the cables
with adjustment. What are most of you all using?
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
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