---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 08/04/08: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:58 AM - Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Tom Anderson) 2. 07:01 AM - Any Piets in N.C.? (Tom Anderson) 3. 07:16 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (TGSTONE236@aol.com) 4. 07:22 AM - AN machine screw questions (Jack T. Textor) 5. 07:25 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (ALAN LYSCARS) 6. 07:31 AM - Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Oscar Zuniga) 7. 07:47 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Jim Ash) 8. 08:02 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (TOM STINEMETZE) 9. 08:27 AM - Re: Waldo Pepper (David Jones) 10. 08:32 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Tom Anderson) 11. 08:51 AM - Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Oscar Zuniga) 12. 08:52 AM - Re: Any Piets in N.C.? (Phillips, Jack) 13. 09:06 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Dick Navratil) 14. 09:34 AM - Waldo Pepper Movie (David Jones) 15. 09:39 AM - Re: Any Piets in N.C.? (Tom Anderson) 16. 09:49 AM - Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? (Marshall Lumsden) 17. 09:51 AM - paying for flight instruction (Oscar Zuniga) 18. 10:23 AM - Re: Re: Any Piets in N.C.? (Phillips, Jack) 19. 11:12 AM - Re: Any Piets in N.C.? (Tom Anderson) 20. 11:34 AM - Taking instruction in your homebuilt (Jeff Boatright) 21. 12:04 PM - Re: project (Rick Holland) 22. 02:51 PM - Ribs and sanding (Ben Ramler) 23. 04:09 PM - Re: Ribs and sanding (Glenn Thomas) 24. 04:19 PM - Re: Ribs and sanding (Gary Boothe) 25. 04:44 PM - Re: Ribs and sanding (Ben Ramler) 26. 04:53 PM - Re: Ribs and sanding (Ben Ramler) 27. 05:24 PM - Re: project (skellytown flyer) 28. 07:33 PM - Re: Ribs and sanding (Bill Church) 29. 08:27 PM - Re: Re: Ribs and sanding (Ben Ramler) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:11 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? From: "Tom Anderson" Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol and then learning to fly in it? I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196398#196398 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:02 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any Piets in N.C.? From: "Tom Anderson" Does anyone know of any Piets, particularly already flying, in NC? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196399#196399 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:48 AM PST US From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? what is eastern NC?East of Raleigh or east of I-95? North eastern or south eastern NC a little more specific to area. In a message dated 8/4/2008 9:59:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Tom Anderson" Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol and then learning to fly in it? I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196398#196398 **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:49 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: AN machine screw questions From: "Jack T. Textor" Hi All, Back from OSH and Brodhead, great time, good to see all my friends! Planning to use 10-32 screws for attaching tail hinges and ailerons. Would the 60k tensile strength be ok or should I go with the 125k? Thanks! Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:25:00 AM PST US From: "ALAN LYSCARS" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? Tom, Only you can answer that one with confidence. Many guys who have come before us, I suspect, have done it. Their assessment of the personal risk was just that: personal. So it is yours. Al in NH ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Anderson" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:55 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? > > > Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol and then > learning to fly in it? > I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? > > -------- > Location: Eastern N.C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196398#196398 > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:31:11 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? Tom; I'd say learning to fly in your own Piet would be great, with a couple of caveats. First, have an experienced test pilot fly off the hours and complete all the necessary tweaking so it will fly right. The last thing a student needs is to be learning in an out-of-rig airplane. Second, make sure there is some sort of intercom. While that was not an option back in the days when Piets were first flown, it sure helps when instructing. Last, but not least, it might take quite a bit of courage for an instructor to ride in that front cockpit and not have brakes or carb heat control. He or she can "save" a botched maneuver with power and flight controls but it would sure be nice to have brakes up front and absolutely essential to safety of flight to have proper operation of carb heat control. Ignition switch and fuel cutoff would also be nice to have in both cockpits but a lot of people have learned to fly in airplanes without access to them for both student and instructor. If you can find an instructor willing to teach you in your Piet, go for it. The airplane is certainly going to be a good teacher. And if I misunderstood your question and you are already a pilot, then it's a no-brainer. Definitely doable. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:47:08 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? I suppose it's do-able, but one of the tricks is to find a flight instructor who knows taildraggers and is willing to do it in your plane. The instructor is going to have to learn the characteristics of your plane at the same time as they're teaching you, unless you let them fly it first. If you're really lucky, you might be able to find a test pilot / instructor that could do both your flight tests and your instruction for you. As a non-pilot you absolutely do not want to do your own flight testing; this is one of those times where experience is worth a lot. Also keep in mind you'd probably be receiving your instruction while seated in the back, which means your instructor is going to be crammed into the front hole. So besides the above criteria, they might have to be pretty flexible also. You'd also need a full set of controls and gauges both front and back. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: Tom Anderson >Sent: Aug 4, 2008 9:55 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? > > >Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol and then learning to fly in it? >I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? > >-------- >Location: Eastern N.C. > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196398#196398 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:31 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? >Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol and then learning to fly in it? >I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? Tom Speaking from my own personal experience, it's certainly doable to build your own Pietenpol, even if you'r not already a pilot and have no experience building airplanes. You just need to be willing to learn as you go and be willing to junk parts that are not "up-to-snuff" (whatever that means.) Learning to fly in that homebuilt Pietenpol - that's going to be a LOT more difficult. First you have to find a licensed instructor with a tailwheel rating who is willing to risk his own neck in a homebuilt that he didn't build. Then, you have to find someone who will take your creation and herd it through it's 40-hour testing phase to the final FAA approval stage before you would be allowed to have a second person (you) in the airplane. After that, the rest would be a piece of cake. It's not like the old days when Bernard P. designed his own plane and then taught himself to fly in it. BUT, don't let that stop you! Learn to fly in a Spam can - one with a tailwheel if you can manage it - and then you will be ready on that glorious day when your Piet is ready to "...slip the surly bonds of earth..." I'm beginning to see that perticular light at the end of the tunnel but it's still mighty dim. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:27:59 AM PST US From: "David Jones" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper Gentleman, I bought a copy of the Waldo Pepper DVD while at Oshkosh for $32.00 (New). The vendor imports the DVD's from Germany. The DVD cover is in German, but the movie is in English. The movie is titled "Tollkuhne Flieger" with Robert Redford. If anyone is interested go to www.warshows.com or call at 1-973-328-8488. Take care, David On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 12:31 PM, Phillips, Jack < Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wrote: > Ben, there is no difference between the ribs at the ailerons and the > rest of them. The wing is built intact, then the airlerons are cut free. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of *Ben Ramler > *Sent:* Friday, August 01, 2008 11:26 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper > > > sorry for me being nieve, but what or who is the great waldo pepper? never > seen the movie so I don't know. As far as my project I have 9 ribs and I > have more to do so I will be at the number 10 mark. I will only be making 14 > regular ribs then after that then I move I onto the ailerons. Which reminds > me I will have to order more glue I think. > > > take care, > > > Ben > > Piet in progress........To Be Continued. > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Dave Abramson > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Friday, August 1, 2008 8:19:19 AM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper > > We need the charactor names before their lines!!!! > > > Axel, Mary-Beth, and Waldo!!! > > > Do not Archive > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]*On Behalf Of *AMsafetyC@aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, July 31, 2008 6:49 PM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper > > > In a message dated 7/31/2008 9:38:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > minoxphotographer@yahoo.com writes: > > For those who might think a Wynne manual is expensive, a $40 movie > certainly would be! > > > I doubt you'll ever hear anyone quote lines for the head torque pattern or > timing gear sections of the book > > What are you doing, I'm borrowing your plane son, its an inferior model > but it ill do, Dillhoffer promised me a job, you 're not going anywhere with > my plane... You're both starving why not help each other > > What would we do? your plane is down for repair and my engine is giving me > fits..... Actually I have some ideas on the subject. > > > Lets get this straight, you're just flying, she's just driving, I'm the one > doing a great stunt, that why you're getting all the glory son > > > John > > > ------------------------------ > > Get fantasy football with free live scoring. Sign up for FanHouse Fantasy > Football today > . > > * * > > * * > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List * > > *href= **"http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com* > > *href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c* > > * * > > * * > > * * > > > _________________________________________________ > > or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender > > Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese > > * > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? From: "Tom Anderson" Oscar, Thanks for the response and no, you didn't misunderstand at all. I've got several ( -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196424#196424 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:51:25 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? Jim is right... if your instructor has no experience in a Piet, then he or she had better learn the airplane first. Duh. My instructor had flown 41CC quite a bit before he ever started my checkout, plus he is an old taildragger pilot from way back, so he didn't bat an eye about flying it from the front seat or instructing me in it. Matter of fact, to demonstrate different maneuvers he would set it up and then ask me what the airspeed indicator was showing. Without fail, he could nail it by sound and feel without benefit of the ASI but I would at least provide a vane-type airspeed indicator hung out on the strut so the front-seater has an idea of what the airspeed is. But now we're picking nits. The question was, "how feasible is it?" and I'm of the opinion that it is quite feasible. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:52:42 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Any Piets in N.C.? From: "Phillips, Jack" Well, I know of at least one. Mine. I'm based at Cox Field (NC81) in Apex, NC. As for learning in your Pietenpol, the tough thing is going to be getting an instructor who is interested in teaching you in a Pietenpol. I'm not sure how he (or she) could get paid since it is not legal to fly commercially in an experimental aircraft other than for "tranisition training". I don't think primary flight instruction would qualify as transition training. But if you can find a flight instructor who doesn't mind flying from the front cockpit of a Pietenpol, for free, then I suppose you can do it. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Anderson Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:59 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Any Piets in N.C.? Does anyone know of any Piets, particularly already flying, in NC? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196399#196399 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:06:10 AM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? I agree. It would be too hard to communicate for primary training in a Piet. Try a Champ or a 172. Dick N. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 10:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? Jim is right... if your instructor has no experience in a Piet, then he or she had better learn the airplane first. Duh. My instructor had flown 41CC quite a bit before he ever started my checkout, plus he is an old taildragger pilot from way back, so he didn't bat an eye about flying it from the front seat or instructing me in it. Matter of fact, to demonstrate different maneuvers he would set it up and then ask me what the airspeed indicator was showing. Without fail, he could nail it by sound and feel without benefit of the ASI but I would at least provide a vane-type airspeed indicator hung out on the strut so the front-seater has an idea of what the airspeed is. But now we're picking nits. The question was, "how feasible is it?" and I'm of the opinion that it is quite feasible. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:27 AM PST US From: "David Jones" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Waldo Pepper Movie Gentleman, I bought a copy of the Waldo Pepper DVD while at Oshkosh for $32.00 (New). The vendor imports the DVD's from Germany. The DVD cover is in German, but the movie is in English. The movie is titled "Tollkuhne Flieger" with Robert Redford. If anyone is interested go to www.warshows.com or call at 1-973-328-8488. Take care, David ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:26 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Any Piets in N.C.? From: "Tom Anderson" Thanks for the response, Jack. BTW, is there any chance I could come by sometime and take a look at your Piet...possibly even take a ride in it to see if I'd even like it? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196438#196438 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:49:54 AM PST US From: Marshall Lumsden Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how feasible is it? When I was a kid in the mid 1930s on a farm in Michigan, a neighbor bought one of the first, if not the first version of an Air Camper plan. First he built the wing and tail, grafted them onto a wooden frame making a glider out of it and had a friend tow him aloft with a Ford truck. Thus he taught himself the rudiments of flying, then he completed the Air Camper in his barn and just took off in it. He flew it a lot for several years. Every summer evening after the chores were done, he was up puttering around overhead. The Piet self- destructed in his barn where it was stored during WWII because he was grounded by the government. After the war he bought a Funk and continued to fly until he was in his eighties., He never bothered to get a pilots license. His Piet wasn't much different from the modern ones, but he sure had the desire to learn to fly. On Aug 4, 2008, at 7:22 AM, ALAN LYSCARS wrote: > > > Tom, > > Only you can answer that one with confidence. Many guys who have > come before us, I suspect, have done it. Their assessment of the > personal risk was just that: personal. > > So it is yours. > > Al in NH > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Anderson" > > To: > Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 9:55 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Building, then learning to fly it - how > feasible is it? > > >> >> >> Just how feasible is it for an amateur pilot to build a Pietenpol >> and then learning to fly in it? >> I know it's doable, but is it actually a realistic, smart endeavor? >> >> -------- >> Location: Eastern N.C. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196398#196398 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:51:10 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: paying for flight instruction I had no trouble with my instructor. I was keeping 41CC in his hangar for the duration, so I paid him hangar rent that was appropriate to the services rendered and that was that. And since he and I are both rated in category and class, and I learned in conventional gear years ago when I first started flying (no taildragger endorsement required), his checking me out in the Piet was nothing more than transition training. I can see now that it could be a bigger issue than just finding an instructor who is willing to instruct you in your own experimental aircraft. However, I would bet that some suitable arrangement could be worked out without violating any FARs. The intent is that experimental aircraft be constructed and operated for recreational and educational purposes, not commercial ones, so it would have to be in keeping with the spirit and intent of the $@%&* law. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:22 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Any Piets in N.C.? From: "Phillips, Jack" Sure. Where are you located? I don't give rides out of Cox - runway is too short to clear the trees with a passenger, but I can meet you in Sanford (TTA, 6,000' runway). Right now the Piet is down for maintenance after 34 hours of flying to and from Brodhead. I need to do an oil change as well as repair the cooling shrouds on the engine. Both shrouds developed cracks in the attach brackets. I've ordered some steel to replace the aluminum brackets and hope to have the repairs made by next weekend. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tom Anderson Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 12:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Any Piets in N.C.? Thanks for the response, Jack. BTW, is there any chance I could come by sometime and take a look at your Piet...possibly even take a ride in it to see if I'd even like it? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196438#196438 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 11:12:25 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Any Piets in N.C.? From: "Tom Anderson" Jack, I live in Wilson and work in Raleigh. -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196455#196455 ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:34:03 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Pietenpol-List: Taking instruction in your homebuilt Jack et al., I certainly could be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure that an instructor can be paid for instructing in a homebuilt airplane. Rental cannot be charged on the plane (that is, the owner of the plane cannot be paid for its use). There are several other considerations (noted in the sources below), but I don't think that the FARs disallow an instructor being paid. I am planning to take instruction in my Piet. I had an instructor lined up who was quite excited about providing instruction and had done so in other amateur-built experimental planes, but our schedules never jibed (his "day job" expanded right when we were getting going). BTW, The EAA has a list of sport pilot instructors, and one of the column headers is: Willing to Instruct in Experimental Aircraft? It's divvied up by state, and the URL for N.C. is: http://www.sportpilot.org/instructors/north%20carolina_1.html This link requires logging in as an EAA member. ---------------------------------------- Sources that suggest an instructor can be paid for instructing in a homebuilt (AOPA, EAA, etc.): From Ron Wanttaja's website, a reprint of the old rec.aviation.homebuilt FAQ Q334: Can I take lessons/get my license in my homebuilt? A. Like so many things in aviation, the answer is, "Yes, but..." There is no regulations to prevent your taking lessons or your flight test in a homebuilt aircraft. Your ability to do so will depend on finding an instructor willing to instruct in a homebuilt, as well as an Examiner willing to administer the test in the aircraft. Neither is automatic, and you'll have little recourse if they refuse. If you would like to take lessons in your homebuilt, ask around at your local EAA chapter. Many EAA members are instructors, and would probably be more willing. My local chapters, for instance, include several CFIs who administer BFRs in members' homebuilts. http://www.wanttaja.com/avlinks/FAQ.HTM ---------------------------------- From AOPA Online: Homebuilts can't be used in a commercial operation. (An instructor may be paid for services provided in an experimental airplane, but charges can't be levied for use of the airplane.) You or your student cannot rent a homebuilt for the purpose of training. http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/inst_reports2.cfm?article=198 ---------------------------------- A fuller discussion is provided at EAA's website, but doesn't directly bear on this question (I provide it here because it lists useful considerations): * Flight Instruction in an Experimental/Amateur-Built Aircraft * Am I allowed to receive flight Instruction in an Experimental /Amateur -Built aircraft? The short answer is yes, you can receive flight training in an amateur-built aircraft. However, there are some issues that may limit this opportunity. First, the aircraft in question must have already completed it's flight test phase (called "phase one operations"). Phase one is usually either the first 25 or 40 hours of operation, depending on what engine/prop combination is installed. During phase one operations, only the pilot can be in the aircraft, so no dual flight instruction could take place in the aircraft during this time.Assuming that the aircraft has completed phase one operations and has been moved into phase two (normal) operations, flight training in the aircraft would be allowed. The next issue is finding a CFI (certified flight instructor) who is willing to provide primary training in the homebuilt aircraft in question. Not all CFI's are willing to give instruction in homebuilt aircraft. Another issue is whether the aircraft in question meets all the requirements of training for the license or rating sought. For private pilot certificates and above, there are requirements for night and instrument training, as well as radio navigation, so the aircraft used for training must be equipped for these operations. If the amateur-built aircraft does not have the appropriate equipment, a second aircraft will have to be used for those portions of the training. Splitting your training between two aircraft will certainly add additional hours to the flight training but will provide the added benefit of experiencing more than one aircraft's flight characteristics. The next thing to consider is the practical test (checkride). This is governed by 14 CFR 61.45, which states that the applicant must present a standard, limited, or primary category aircraft for the practical test. However, this regulation also allows the Designated Pilot Examiner (DPE) the discretion to administer the test in an Experimental-Amateur Built aircraft. Some DPE's are not willing to give a practical test in an amateur-built aircraft, so you may have to find an aircraft acceptable to the DPE in which to take your checkride. Also, the aircraft used for the checkride must be equipped to perform all the tasks listed in the Practical Test Standards for the license or rating sought. Depending on the level of equipment in your homebuilt, you may end up taking your checkride in the aircraft in which you did your night and instrument training As a practical matter, you will only be able to do your primary training in a homebuilt that you own. This is due to the fact that the operating limitations (which are issued as a part of the aircraft's airworthiness certificate) for a homebuilt prohibit the carriage of persons or property for compensation or hire. This means that the owner of a homebuilt aircraft cannot rent the aircraft to you, as that would constitute carrying a person for compensation or hire. Finally, you need to make sure you can properly insure the aircraft for primary training (including solo). Depending on the aircraft, insurance may not be available for an owner that is not yet a certificated pilot. Even if you can acquire aircraft insurance as a student pilot, this may or may not be cost-effective. You'll have to balance the cost of this insurance against the cost of renting an available training aircraft from your local FBO (Fixed Base Operator). Note that even if you rent an aircraft from an FBO it is strongly recommend that you carry non-owner insurance (often called "renter's insurance") to protect you in the event of an accident. The insurance premium for your homebuilt will probably drop considerably once you get your pilot certificate and a few hours of experience in your logbook. http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/faq/Flight%20Instruction%20in%20an%20Experimental_Amateur-Built%20Aircraft.html? At 11:50 AM -0400 8/4/08, Phillips, Jack wrote: > > >... >As for learning in your Pietenpol, the tough thing is going to be >getting an instructor who is interested in teaching you in a Pietenpol. >I'm not sure how he (or she) could get paid since it is not legal to fly >commercially in an experimental aircraft other than for "tranisition >training". I don't think primary flight instruction would qualify as >transition training. But if you can find a flight instructor who >doesn't mind flying from the front cockpit of a Pietenpol, for free, >then I suppose you can do it. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP > -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 12:04:53 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: project Did that include oil? Rick On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 4:43 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > i have been off the list as far as posting after changing e-mail servers > but maybe this will work.I am trying to get moving again on the project I > bought from D.J. last year.I just pulled the Corvair engine from the mount > this afternoon and decided to weigh it before moving it out of the way while > I work on the fuselage.if I was seeing the scales right-( they were pretty > well covered up with the base I set it on) but including the 15# for the > wood base I made to sit it on it looked like 240# so that would be about > 225# without it.and that didn't include the carb and tubing left hanging on > the firewall,the starter or the exhaust stacks i removed,prop and bolts etc. > does this sound reasonable? I sure would like to get this plane flying in > the next year.but I am not real fond of the EIS unit in the panel.I know > they are not cheap but seems to me that a couple of steam gages would look a > lot more natural in a Piet.-well a GN-1 anyway.Raymond > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=194962#194962 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 02:51:56 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding Afternoon Group, A quick question. How well should I be sanding the joints on the opposite side before gluing? take care, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 04:09:36 PM PST US From: "Glenn Thomas" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding I scored with #60 grit. Just a couple of passes with the sandpaper at 2 angles and only enough to give the glue something to grab. I vacuumed away all the dust with a shop vac. All glued surfaces including gussets and capstrip got with the 60 grit. On 8/4/08, Ben Ramler wrote: > > > > > Afternoon Group, > A quick question. How well should I be sanding the joints on the > opposite side before gluing? > take care, > Ben in MN > > -- Glenn Thomas Storrs, CT http://www.flyingwood.com ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:19:07 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding Ben, AC 43.13, Section 1, Paragraph 5, quote, "...Sandpaper must never be used to smooth softwood surfaces that are to be glued. Sawed surfaces must approach well-planed surfaces in uniformity, smoothness, and freedom from crushed fibers..." Fortunately, though, almost all the strength in our ribs comes from the gussets. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (11 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding Afternoon Group, A quick question. How well should I be sanding the joints on the opposite side before gluing? take care, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 04:44:17 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding hmm. I wonder what sandpaper I'm using. Maybe I sanded to much away then be caus I sanded until there was not dried up glue left from the other side is this over kill?=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Glenn Thoma s =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: M onday, August 4, 2008 6:06:56 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sa nding=0A=0A=0AI scored with #60 grit.- Just a couple of passes with the s andpaper at 2 angles and only enough to give the glue something to grab.- I vacuumed away all the dust with a shop vac.- All glued surfaces includ ing gussets and capstrip got with the- 60 grit.=0A=0A-=0AOn 8/4/08, Ben Ramler wrote: =0A--> Pietenpol-List message pos =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 04:53:40 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding so why did you tell me that Gary? so you trying to tell not sand ok I can do that. Ben in MN ----- Original Message ---- From: Gary Boothe Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 6:15:55 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding Ben, AC 43.13, Section 1, Paragraph 5, quote, "...Sandpaper must never be used to smooth softwood surfaces that are to be glued. Sawed surfaces must approach well-planed surfaces in uniformity, smoothness, and freedom from crushed fibers..." Fortunately, though, almost all the strength in our ribs comes from the gussets. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (11 ribs down) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 2:49 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Ribs and sanding Afternoon Group, A quick question. How well should I be sanding the joints on the opposite side before gluing? take care, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:24:40 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: project From: "skellytown flyer" yes the weight did include oil in the case.,but not the carb or the exhaust stacks except the cast iron headers. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196521#196521 ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 07:33:42 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding From: "Bill Church" Not sure if I should step into this one, since it looks like there is some confusion, but here goes anyway. I'm going to assume that Ben's question has to do with sanding the bonding surface of the plywood gussets for his wing ribs. If that's right, then Glenn's reply is what you're looking for. Just scuff up the surface, since plywood can have a "glazed" surface as it is received. This glazed surface just needs to be scratched a bit to permit the epoxy to penetrate the plywood and make a decent bond. You shouldn't really be removing material from the plywood, just making it more bond-able. Gary's comments refer more to glue joints for end-grain spruce (or whatever softwood you are building with). When spruce is sawn, the end grain has open pores which will absorb the adhesive. If the end is sanded (and especially if the wood gets burned in sanding), the pores tend to get clogged, which impedes the absorption of the adhesive. If the epoxy doesn't "bite" into the wood, the joint will not achieve the strength that is needed. That is a bad thing. So, Ben, if you are asking about sanding the "gluing side" of the plywood gussets, then, yes you should sand them, like Glenn said. If that's not what you're asking, then maybe you need to re-state your question more clearly. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196540#196540 ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:27:12 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding Sorry Everyone, Yep that is what I was asking. just dealing with sanding then gluing. I am building with douglas fir so spruce is of no concern to me. Another question I am unsure of what grit of sandpaper I am using, and my dad is unsure to. If I can describe it by its color the sandpaper I am using is a grey color. take care, Ben ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 9:30:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding Not sure if I should step into this one, since it looks like there is some confusion, but here goes anyway. I'm going to assume that Ben's question has to do with sanding the bonding surface of the plywood gussets for his wing ribs. If that's right, then Glenn's reply is what you're looking for. Just scuff up the surface, since plywood can have a "glazed" surface as it is received. This glazed surface just needs to be scratched a bit to permit the epoxy to penetrate the plywood and make a decent bond. You shouldn't really be removing material from the plywood, just making it more bond-able. Gary's comments refer more to glue joints for end-grain spruce (or whatever softwood you are building with). When spruce is sawn, the end grain has open pores which will absorb the adhesive. If the end is sanded (and especially if the wood gets burned in sanding), the pores tend to get clogged, which impedes the absorption of the adhesive. If the epoxy doesn't "bite" into the wood, the joint will not achieve the strength that is needed. That is a bad thing. So, Ben, if you are asking about sanding the "gluing side" of the plywood gussets, then, yes you should sand them, like Glenn said. If that's not what you're asking, then maybe you need to re-state your question more clearly. Bill C. 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