---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 08/05/08: 49 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:51 AM - How hard is it to get into the front seat (charles loomis) 2. 04:13 AM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (gcardinal) 3. 04:24 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (gcardinal) 4. 04:26 AM - Re: Re: Ribs and sanding (Phillips, Jack) 5. 04:28 AM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (John Recine) 6. 05:43 AM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (walt) 7. 07:06 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Pieti Lowell) 8. 07:24 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Tim Willis) 9. 07:35 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Phillips, Jack) 10. 07:38 AM - Re: fuel drain locations (Pieti Lowell) 11. 07:56 AM - Re: best movie scenes (Pieti Lowell) 12. 08:06 AM - Re: Frued table saw blades (Pieti Lowell) 13. 08:23 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Bill Church) 14. 08:29 AM - Re: Roll Call (Pieti Lowell) 15. 08:37 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Tim Willis) 16. 09:23 AM - ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 17. 09:39 AM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Kip and Beth Gardner) 18. 10:02 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (John Franklin) 19. 10:05 AM - Model A mag timing (HelsperSew@aol.com) 20. 10:08 AM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Phillips, Jack) 21. 10:30 AM - Re: Re: project (Rick Holland) 22. 10:57 AM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ed G.) 23. 11:33 AM - Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (Tom Bernie) 24. 11:48 AM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Tom Anderson) 25. 12:49 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Kip and Beth Gardner) 26. 02:07 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 27. 02:07 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 28. 02:39 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Bill Church) 29. 02:59 PM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Don Emch) 30. 03:06 PM - Just for kicks (Don Emch) 31. 03:16 PM - Re: Model A mag timing (Pieti Lowell) 32. 03:17 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (walt) 33. 03:23 PM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Jim Ash) 34. 03:27 PM - Re: Just for kicks (walt) 35. 03:29 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 36. 03:32 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 37. 03:54 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Bill Church) 38. 04:18 PM - Re: Re: Roll Call (Chet's Mail) 39. 04:28 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Rick Holland) 40. 04:32 PM - Re: Just for kicks (Rick Holland) 41. 05:21 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Jack Phillips) 42. 05:33 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (charles loomis) 43. 05:35 PM - Re: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Jeff Boatright) 44. 07:29 PM - Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat (Kip and Beth Gardner) 45. 07:45 PM - Re: Re: Homemade Turnbuckles (gcardinal) 46. 09:15 PM - intercom (Dick Navratil) 47. 09:34 PM - Re: intercom (Peter W Johnson) 48. 09:45 PM - Re: ribs and ailerons (Ben Ramler) 49. 10:04 PM - Re: Re: Ribs and sanding (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:32 AM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty difficult. The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible person and she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a Model A engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is nothing else like it. Charley ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:13:16 AM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat Charley, Keri-Ann Price sells plans for a modification to add a door to the passenger seat. Her website is: http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles loomis" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty difficult. > The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible person and > she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a Model A > engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is > nothing else like it. > Charley > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:24:37 AM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Bill, Dale Johnson built a pull tester for testing the cables on NX18235. We also used it to test some homemade turnbuckle barrels. Dale would be happy to do a test on one or more of your turnbuckles. Let me know if you are interested. Greg Cardinal ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:34 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Ken, I kind of got sidetracked away from the homemade turnbuckles for a while, and I've actually been building my tailfeathers. So, the short answer to your question is "No, I haven't". Having said that, here's the long answer. I didn't do any strength calculations, but I have a strong feeling that the turnbuckles as I made them will be sufficient in strength, but I have yet to do some real-world pull testing to see what they can safely handle. Before I do the pull test I wanted to refine the design a bit to make them a bit more user friendly. That way I'll be testing the proper part, not just something similar. I still plan to do it, just not right now. If you need an answer right now, I think just about anyone could make up a set of these in a short period of time, and then do their own testing using a simple apparatus (lever and pivot). When I do get around to revising the design and doing the pull-testing, I'll share the results with the list. If you want more details about how I made the prototype, let me know. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:37 PM To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Bill, Have you nailed down the materials (thickness, width, length, rod size, etc) to manufacture the turnbuckles for the tail section? After seeing the price for the turnbuckles on Aircraft Spruce and others, I think making my own would be a great idea... any assistance? Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:26:16 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding From: "Phillips, Jack" Look on the back. Most quality sandpaper will have the grit size printed on the back. It will be a number ranging from 60 (very coarse) to 600 (extremely fine). Do you have the Tony Bingelis books? If not, you should buy them. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 11:25 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding Sorry Everyone, Yep that is what I was asking. just dealing with sanding then gluing. I am building with douglas fir so spruce is of no concern to me. Another question I am unsure of what grit of sandpaper I am using, and my dad is unsure to. If I can describe it by its color the sandpaper I am using is a grey color. take care, Ben ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Monday, August 4, 2008 9:30:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding Not sure if I should step into this one, since it looks like there is some confusion, but here goes anyway. I'm going to assume that Ben's question has to do with sanding the bonding surface of the plywood gussets for his wing ribs. If that's right, then Glenn's reply is what you're looking for. Just scuff up the surface, since plywood can have a "glazed" surface as it is received. This glazed surface just needs to be scratched a bit to permit the epoxy to penetrate the plywood and make a decent bond. You shouldn't really be removing material from the plywood, just making it more bond-able. Gary's comments refer more to glue joints for end-grain spruce (or whatever softwood you are building with). When spruce is sawn, the end grain has open pores which will absorb the adhesive. If the end is sanded (and especially if the wood gets burned in sanding), the pores tend to get clogged, which impedes the absorption of the adhesive. If the epoxy doesn't "bite" into the wood, the joint will not achieve the strength that is needed. That is a bad thing. So, Ben, if you are asking about sanding the "gluing side" of the plywood gussets, then, yes you should sand them, like Glenn said. If that's not what you're asking, then maybe you need to re-state your question more clearly. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196540#196540 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:28:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat From: "John Recine" Charley For what its worth I was considering the door also. I was just really concerned reluctant to cut the upper longeron weakening the structure for an occasional rider. That thought was reaffirmed by my tech councelor. You may want to reconsider that also John ------Original Message------ From: gcardinal Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Aug 5, 2008 7:10 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat Charley, Keri-Ann Price sells plans for a modification to add a door to the passenger seat. Her website is: http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles loomis" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty difficult. > The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible person and > she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a Model A > engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is > nothing else like it. > Charley > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:43:14 AM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat Charley, I've found that if a person really wants to get in they will. I added a step on the rear gear leg that really helps. Good friend of mine of 35 years, was the last of the people not to get polio shots. His legs are shriveled and only 50% there. But he wanted to get in and he did. Had a great time. But then he couldn't get out! Me and a friend, grabbed him and lifted him out. A fun time was had by all. Big thing about the Piet that no one had discussed, is the tight room for your feet on the rudder with a big butt sitting there. Once had to make up a feeble excuse about the winds aloft, cause I couldn't take a big-butted lady, who would have loved a ride walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "charles loomis" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 4:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty difficult. > The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible person and > she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a Model A > engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is > nothing else like it. > Charley > > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:47 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Homemade Turnbuckles From: "Pieti Lowell" Has anyone talked with Frank Pavliga ? His Piet used 3/32 cable to cross angle support the cabanes, and had to keep tightening because of stretch, and replaced them after a few hours of flight. Do other applications of 3/32 cable experience the same problem ? Don't chance it. Allen Rudolf's piet still flys with 1/8 Th" cables and the plane weights under 640 Lbs. And will fly two people on a 90 Deg. day with a standard Ford A just turning 1950 RPM. Pieti Lowell[/quote] Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196610#196610 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:13 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. Building our own turnbuckles out of stainless steel (female) and a cap bolt (male) might be the best of all worlds. The high quality steel cap bolt (socket head) has rolled threads and is case hardened, as well. The mating female part (homemade) has cut threads, but the S.S. material is much stronger than the brass. Moreover, the builder might experiment with slightly undersize tap drills to achieve nearly interference fit (more thread-to-thread surface). This last step might not be practical, and a real tap-breaker, but perhaps a worthy experiment. Also, as in the demontrated design, the homebuilder can make the straps that carry the loads on the ends of the entire turnbuckle assembly as thick and wide as needed. Of course, as stated first in this note... this is only THEORY, and that is why testing is so important. If it works, the proper homemade turnbuckle would be not only cheaper, but better than store-bought aircraft quality. It would also be more in keeping with the barndoor hinge, baling wire, and oatmeal carton LE heritage of the Piet itself. Note, though, that this is definitely NOT an appeal for Home Depot turnbuckles. Tim in central Texas -----Original Message----- >From: gcardinal >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 6:22 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > >Bill, > >Dale Johnson built a pull tester for testing the cables on NX18235. We also used it to test some homemade turnbuckle barrels. >Dale would be happy to do a test on one or more of your turnbuckles. >Let me know if you are interested. > >Greg Cardinal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Church > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:34 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Ken, > > I kind of got sidetracked away from the homemade turnbuckles for a while, and I've actually been building my tailfeathers. So, the short answer to your question is "No, I haven't". > Having said that, here's the long answer. > I didn't do any strength calculations, but I have a strong feeling that the turnbuckles as I made them will be sufficient in strength, but I have yet to do some real-world pull testing to see what they can safely handle. Before I do the pull test I wanted to refine the design a bit to make them a bit more user friendly. That way I'll be testing the proper part, not just something similar. I still plan to do it, just not right now. If you need an answer right now, I think just about anyone could make up a set of these in a short period of time, and then do their own testing using a simple apparatus (lever and pivot). When I do get around to revising the design and doing the pull-testing, I'll share the results with the list. > If you want more details about how I made the prototype, let me know. > > Bill C. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:37 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Bill, > > Have you nailed down the materials (thickness, width, length, rod size, etc) to manufacture the turnbuckles for the tail section? After seeing the price for the turnbuckles on Aircraft Spruce and others, I think making my own would be a great idea... any assistance? > > > Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:35:18 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles From: "Phillips, Jack" Maybe this would be an area for the CozyGirrrls to make some parts. There are several dozen turnbuckles required to build a Pietenpol, and they could offer a turnbuckle kit. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. Building our own turnbuckles out of stainless steel (female) and a cap bolt (male) might be the best of all worlds. The high quality steel cap bolt (socket head) has rolled threads and is case hardened, as well. The mating female part (homemade) has cut threads, but the S.S. material is much stronger than the brass. Moreover, the builder might experiment with slightly undersize tap drills to achieve nearly interference fit (more thread-to-thread surface). This last step might not be practical, and a real tap-breaker, but perhaps a worthy experiment. Also, as in the demontrated design, the homebuilder can make the straps that carry the loads on the ends of the entire turnbuckle assembly as thick and wide as needed. Of course, as stated first in this note... this is only THEORY, and that is why testing is so important. If it works, the proper homemade turnbuckle would be not only cheaper, but better than store-bought aircraft quality. It would also be more in keeping with the barndoor hinge, baling wire, and oatmeal carton LE heritage of the Piet itself. Note, though, that this is definitely NOT an appeal for Home Depot turnbuckles. Tim in central Texas -----Original Message----- >From: gcardinal >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 6:22 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > >Bill, > >Dale Johnson built a pull tester for testing the cables on NX18235. We also used it to test some homemade turnbuckle barrels. >Dale would be happy to do a test on one or more of your turnbuckles. >Let me know if you are interested. > >Greg Cardinal > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bill Church > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:34 PM > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Ken, > > I kind of got sidetracked away from the homemade turnbuckles for a while, and I've actually been building my tailfeathers. So, the short answer to your question is "No, I haven't". > Having said that, here's the long answer. > I didn't do any strength calculations, but I have a strong feeling that the turnbuckles as I made them will be sufficient in strength, but I have yet to do some real-world pull testing to see what they can safely handle. Before I do the pull test I wanted to refine the design a bit to make them a bit more user friendly. That way I'll be testing the proper part, not just something similar. I still plan to do it, just not right now. If you need an answer right now, I think just about anyone could make up a set of these in a short period of time, and then do their own testing using a simple apparatus (lever and pivot). When I do get around to revising the design and doing the pull-testing, I'll share the results with the list. > If you want more details about how I made the prototype, let me know. > > Bill C. > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP > Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 12:37 PM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Bill, > > Have you nailed down the materials (thickness, width, length, rod size, etc) to manufacture the turnbuckles for the tail section? After seeing the price for the turnbuckles on Aircraft Spruce and others, I think making my own would be a great idea... any assistance? > > > Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:38:40 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: fuel drain locations From: "Pieti Lowell" Hi Douwe, I have placed fuel outlets in most locations and finally just use the rear right, because a boarding passenger will hit the left rear with his shoulder, and if you fly with the ball in the center either rear locations will work. The center location, "Allen Rudolf's " will get tagged very often by a passenger boarding. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196620#196620 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:56:54 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: best movie scenes From: "Pieti Lowell" If you want to see some neat Piet flying, take a gander at " Red Betsy ", Ted Davis did the flights in this movie. Type the title in the search web. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196625#196625 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 08:06:42 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Frued table saw blades From: "Pieti Lowell" You are quite right, I use a 80 tooth carbide to saw my spars from a 6"X 2-1/2" X 14 Ft. Lg. Sitkus, when I flipped the beam over and reversed ends the surface never needed a plane job. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196627#196627 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 08:23:02 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Tim, Now you've got me re-energized and ready to get back to work on the turnbuckle prototyping, with a new twist. I'm going to try making one from oatmeal cartons and stove bolts! Or not. Actually there's no need to make them stronger than A/C turnbuckles, just equal. But the use of higher strength materials (st.st. vs brass) could allow for some weight savings, based on a strength to weight basis. Stainless steel will provide necessary corrosion resistance, like brass, since most of the turnbuckles are exposed to the elements. Using smaller tap drills will definitely become a source of extreme frustration for anyone working with stainless steel, and the cost of broken taps will very quickly exceed the cost of buying A/C turnbuckles. One feature that I have not yet figured out is a method to safety wire such a homemade turnbuckle. I don't actually anticipate doing any further development on my prototypes until sometime later in the fall, when it gets too cold out in the garage for epoxy to cure. When I have some results, I'll share them with the list. But that doesn't mean someone else can't go ahead with their own ideas / prototypes / testing. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:22 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles --> In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. Building our own turnbuckles out of stainless steel (female) and a cap bolt (male) might be the best of all worlds. The high quality steel cap bolt (socket head) has rolled threads and is case hardened, as well. The mating female part (homemade) has cut threads, but the S.S. material is much stronger than the brass. Moreover, the builder might experiment with slightly undersize tap drills to achieve nearly interference fit (more thread-to-thread surface). This last step might not be practical, and a real tap-breaker, but perhaps a worthy experiment. Also, as in the demontrated design, the homebuilder can make the straps that carry the loads on the ends of the entire turnbuckle assembly as thick and wide as needed. Of course, as stated first in this note... this is only THEORY, and that is why testing is so important. If it works, the proper homemade turnbuckle would be not only cheaper, but better than store-bought aircraft quality. It would also be more in keeping with the barndoor hinge, baling wire, and oatmeal carton LE heritage of the Piet itself. Note, though, that this is definitely NOT an appeal for Home Depot turnbuckles. Tim in central Texas ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:29:45 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Roll Call From: "Pieti Lowell" Chet, Have you: Set timing at 28 Deg ? Cleaned the casting out from the water inlet with a stiff wire ? Use a Ford T water pump in place of the A pump ? Check head gasket and H2O openings.in castings ? Radiator clean and large enough ? Auto fuel ? I run a Ford B supped- up to 90 HP and when it ran hot,In the water pump I found one impeller of two broke off, welded it on, solved problem, I use a Funk pump, externally mounted, like the "T" pump, which I have used in the past with success. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196633#196633 ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:36 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles Bill, you won't need to safety wire them-- use oatmeal itself as "loctite." Tim Do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 10:20 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > >Tim, > >Now you've got me re-energized and ready to get back to work on the >turnbuckle prototyping, with a new twist. >I'm going to try making one from oatmeal cartons and stove bolts! > >Or not. > >Actually there's no need to make them stronger than A/C turnbuckles, just >equal. But the use of higher strength materials (st.st. vs brass) could >allow for some weight savings, based on a strength to weight basis. >Stainless steel will provide necessary corrosion resistance, like brass, >since most of the turnbuckles are exposed to the elements. Using smaller tap >drills will definitely become a source of extreme frustration for anyone >working with stainless steel, and the cost of broken taps will very quickly >exceed the cost of buying A/C turnbuckles. > >One feature that I have not yet figured out is a method to safety wire such >a homemade turnbuckle. > >I don't actually anticipate doing any further development on my prototypes >until sometime later in the fall, when it gets too cold out in the garage >for epoxy to cure. When I have some results, I'll share them with the list. >But that doesn't mean someone else can't go ahead with their own ideas / >prototypes / testing. > >Bill C. > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:22 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > >--> > >In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard >aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads >are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. >However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely >be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is >has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. > > >Building our own turnbuckles out of stainless steel (female) and a cap bolt >(male) might be the best of all worlds. The high quality steel cap bolt >(socket head) has rolled threads and is case hardened, as well. The mating >female part (homemade) has cut threads, but the S.S. material is much >stronger than the brass. Moreover, the builder might experiment with >slightly undersize tap drills to achieve nearly interference fit (more >thread-to-thread surface). This last step might not be practical, and a >real tap-breaker, but perhaps a worthy experiment. > >Also, as in the demontrated design, the homebuilder can make the straps that >carry the loads on the ends of the entire turnbuckle assembly as thick and >wide as needed. > >Of course, as stated first in this note... this is only THEORY, and that is >why testing is so important. > >If it works, the proper homemade turnbuckle would be not only cheaper, but >better than store-bought aircraft quality. It would also be more in keeping >with the barndoor hinge, baling wire, and oatmeal carton LE heritage of the >Piet itself. Note, though, that this is definitely NOT an appeal for Home >Depot turnbuckles. > >Tim in central Texas ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:23:13 AM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:39:57 AM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Ben, Check the plans, the ailerons are built integral with the wing and cut out after you have completed building & trammeling the wing. I'm not there yet, but maybe someone else on the list can expain the process. Kip Gardner On Aug 5, 2008, at 12:20 PM, Ben Ramler wrote: > > > Afternoon Group, > Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the > ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? > 73, > Ben in MN > > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:01 AM PST US From: John Franklin Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles -----Original Message----- >From: Tim Willis >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 9:21 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > >In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. Tim, I also thought this was the case regarding the SS turnbuckles, but check out the ones that McMaster-Carr sells: http://www.mcmaster.com/ p/n 3082T21 These are SS turnbuckles comparable to the AN130-16S that AS&S sells, but they are longer. For some reason the SS turnbuckles at McMaster are rated at 400lbs whereas the AN130-16S are rated at 1600lbs. I don't understand how the brass turnbuckles could be 4X as strong as the SS but perhaps some of the mechanical gurus can enlighten us. It may be the type of SS that is used, or perhaps the eyelet is not welded. That said, I would think 400lbs would be plenty strong for a low & slow Aircamper. BTW, the AN130-16S sells for about $27 and the McMaster SS one is just over $17. Regards, John F. Richmond, TX (Eduordo was a bust!) GN-1 Aircamper Corvair 164cid ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:05:37 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Model A mag timing Lowell, I have my mags set to 30 degrees, per what Ken Perkins recommends. What do you think? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:08:29 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons From: "Phillips, Jack" Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:30:36 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: project William Wynne told me the ready to fly weight of the Corvair including wood prop and around 6 lbs for a mount comes to 240 lbs (with starter). Sounds like yours will come to more than that. Rick On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 6:21 PM, skellytown flyer wrote: > > yes the weight did include oil in the case.,but not the carb or the exhaust > stacks except the cast iron headers. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196521#196521 > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:57:28 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Ben I built the entire wing except for the wing tip bow, diagonals and plywood leading edge covering. then I made up the three airleron spars and slid them into place from the wing end and glued them in with T-88. The wing has to be square when this is done. I used the plumb bob method which is described at the top of page 66 of the " EAA Aircraft building Techniques WOOD" book checking the alighnment continuously during construction. If you don't have one it is available through EAA book store and well worth it but there are other methods of squareing the wing. I did one set of airleron spars with the wing verticle as shown in the book and the other wing horizontal on saw horses, the horizontal one was much easier to work with. All 30 ribs are identicle thanks to the genious of Mr. B. Pietenpol but the airleron spars only pick up the outer six/seven. Once the airleron spars were glued in I used my rib jig to make the inside end rib for the airleron. I used the wing tip bow to mark the airleron spar ends and carefully cut them to match up to the tip bow with a good sharp box saw. I then glued on the wing tip bow, the airleron diagonals. the inner end blocking and even installed my airleron hinges. I then cut the airleron free with my box saw. since it was part of the wing when it was built it fits perfectly. This is the way I did it and it worked perfectly I'm sure there are other valuable opinions from people on the list. Hope this helps. Ed Grentzer >From: Ben Ramler >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons >Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:20:38 -0700 (PDT) > > >Afternoon Group, > Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs >need to be set aside for the ailerons? >73, >Ben in MN > > ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:05 AM PST US From: Tom Bernie Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles I made my own turnbuckles. They are a pain to adjust, but strong -- pull tested to almost 2000# when the test rig broke. Tom Bernie GN-1 Gloucester Mass -----Original Message----- >From: Tim Willis >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 11:35 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles > > >Bill, you won't need to safety wire them-- use oatmeal itself as "loctite." >Tim >Do not archive > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Bill Church >>Sent: Aug 5, 2008 10:20 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles >> >>Tim, >> >>Now you've got me re-energized and ready to get back to work on the >>turnbuckle prototyping, with a new twist. >>I'm going to try making one from oatmeal cartons and stove bolts! >> >>Or not. >> >>Actually there's no need to make them stronger than A/C turnbuckles, just >>equal. But the use of higher strength materials (st.st. vs brass) could >>allow for some weight savings, based on a strength to weight basis. >>Stainless steel will provide necessary corrosion resistance, like brass, >>since most of the turnbuckles are exposed to the elements. Using smaller tap >>drills will definitely become a source of extreme frustration for anyone >>working with stainless steel, and the cost of broken taps will very quickly >>exceed the cost of buying A/C turnbuckles. >> >>One feature that I have not yet figured out is a method to safety wire such >>a homemade turnbuckle. >> >>I don't actually anticipate doing any further development on my prototypes >>until sometime later in the fall, when it gets too cold out in the garage >>for epoxy to cure. When I have some results, I'll share them with the list. >>But that doesn't mean someone else can't go ahead with their own ideas / >>prototypes / testing. >> >>Bill C. >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >>[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Willis >>Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:22 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Homemade Turnbuckles >> >>--> >> >>In theory, we should be able to build stronger turnbuckles than standard >>aircraft ones. The A/C turnbuckles are made of brass. Their male threads >>are rolled, making them stronger than the cut threads we would make. >>However, I believe the female (tapped) threads are cut. That would likely >>be the wekaer link, and more likely to strip in tension. Moreover, brass is >>has less tensile and shering strength than either steel or stainless steel. >> >> >>Building our own turnbuckles out of stainless steel (female) and a cap bolt >>(male) might be the best of all worlds. The high quality steel cap bolt >>(socket head) has rolled threads and is case hardened, as well. The mating >>female part (homemade) has cut threads, but the S.S. material is much >>stronger than the brass. Moreover, the builder might experiment with >>slightly undersize tap drills to achieve nearly interference fit (more >>thread-to-thread surface). This last step might not be practical, and a >>real tap-breaker, but perhaps a worthy experiment. >> >>Also, as in the demontrated design, the homebuilder can make the straps that >>carry the loads on the ends of the entire turnbuckle assembly as thick and >>wide as needed. >> >>Of course, as stated first in this note... this is only THEORY, and that is >>why testing is so important. >> >>If it works, the proper homemade turnbuckle would be not only cheaper, but >>better than store-bought aircraft quality. It would also be more in keeping >>with the barndoor hinge, baling wire, and oatmeal carton LE heritage of the >>Piet itself. Note, though, that this is definitely NOT an appeal for Home >>Depot turnbuckles. >> >>Tim in central Texas > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:39 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat From: "Tom Anderson" walt, How big-butted are you talking about here? Furthermore, is the Piet a truly capable 2-seater at all? -------- Location: Eastern N.C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196707#196707 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:49:09 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat Tom, There is a saying that you may not have heard since you are fairly new to the list - "This plane was designed when midgets ruled the earth!" Bernard, by all accounts, was about 5'4" and weighed maybe 140 lbs. Now that's just about my size, and my wife is about the same, and our daughter will probably be about equal or less as an adult, so for us, yes, it's a capable 2-seater. Heck, we could even carry 50-60 lbs of baggage if there was space for it! For two 200+ lb. guys, add in a full load of fuel and you're close to gross, if not over, depending on how light or heavy you built your plane. Kip G. On Aug 5, 2008, at 2:48 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > > > walt, > How big-butted are you talking about here? > Furthermore, is the Piet a truly capable 2-seater at all? > > -------- > Location: Eastern N.C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196707#196707 > > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:33 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons yes at least page 1 page. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 02:07:57 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 02:39:38 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Yikes! Ben, what are you doing trying to build a plane without having or reading the plans??? The plans is all there is. There ain't no other way to do it. Maybe it's time to order a new set of plans (or put the project to rest). Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 02:59:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat From: "Don Emch" Build light! Somewhere I once saw "Simplicate and add lightness!" Just for some numbers, I have an A-65 Continental and it weighs in at 626lbs. empty. Full fuel is just under 15 gallons. I regularly carry a 230lb. passenger with full fuel and me at nearly 185 lbs. It doesn't exactly claw for altitude at that weight, but basically I know if I can get the passenger into the front hole I can lift them out of a respectable field. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196754#196754 ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 03:06:11 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Just for kicks From: "Don Emch" Just thought I'd throw this picture in from a week or so ago, somewhere in Ohio... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196756#196756 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/flying_circus00541_181.jpg ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:58 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Model A mag timing From: "Pieti Lowell" Should work great, even without an impulse. Max RPM is the results, In the olden days 73 Oct. was max. Then 25 Deg. is what most mfg. recommended. Keep plugs at .015"/.018" or it is hard starting. Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196757#196757 ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 03:17:03 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat Absolutely a two seater. Had my 190 pounder brother-in law up today. and I weigh 210# But you have to build light. My empty weight was at 595#. With us and gas, still climbs like crazy. Look at this youtube. with Don at 180# http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLrIDeDLR48 No white knuckles at all. Build light build light build light walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Anderson" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 2:48 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > > walt, > How big-butted are you talking about here? > Furthermore, is the Piet a truly capable 2-seater at all? > > -------- > Location: Eastern N.C. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196707#196707 > > > ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 03:23:16 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat Has anybody done the door mod with a tube-and-fabric fuselage instead of a wooden one? Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: gcardinal >Sent: Aug 5, 2008 7:10 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > >Charley, > >Keri-Ann Price sells plans for a modification to add a door to the passenger >seat. Her website is: > >http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html > >Greg > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "charles loomis" >To: >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:48 AM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > >> >> I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty difficult. >> The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible person and >> she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a Model A >> engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is >> nothing else like it. >> Charley >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 03:27:32 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Just for kicks I love those colors. :^)) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Emch" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 6:05 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Just for kicks > > Just thought I'd throw this picture in from a week or so ago, somewhere in > Ohio... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196756#196756 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/flying_circus00541_181.jpg > > > ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 03:29:05 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons nope. Dad said the flyer and glider manual is what to use. ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 4:39:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Yikes! Ben, what are you doing trying to build a plane without having or reading the plans??? The plans is all there is. There ain't no other way to do it. Maybe it's time to order a new set of plans (or put the project to rest). Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:32:12 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons you have 150 to spend??? I don't! ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 4:39:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Yikes! Ben, what are you doing trying to build a plane without having or reading the plans??? The plans is all there is. There ain't no other way to do it. Maybe it's time to order a new set of plans (or put the project to rest). Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:54:08 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Ben, Ben, Ben. Yes, it is possible to build an Air Camper from the Flying and Glider Manual drawings. I wouldn't want to, but it's been done. Those drawings are so small I find them pretty hard to read, though. Nonetheless, those are your plans. I assume you "splurged" for the $8 for the EAA reprint of the FGM. Use those plans to deternmine how many ribs are affected by the ailerons. As for $150 being too much to spend, how do you plan to build the rest of the plane if $150 for a set of plans is too much money? How are you going to come up with the cash for a motor? How about a propellor? Wheels? Instruments? The cheapest recent build that I can recall hearing about was around $5,000. Assuming someone gave you all of the materials to build the plane, and you live on a property big enough to have your own runway, what are you going to do when it comes time to fill the tank at $5 a gallon (or more)? The Pietenpol is one of the most economical "real" aircraft you can build. It can be built cheaply, but it still ain't free. Building an airplane from plans drawn in 1934 is a challenge. Building an airplane without using those plans, and not spending any money is called dreaming. Pleasant dreams, Ben. BC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> nope. Dad said the flyer and glider manual is what to use. you have 150 to spend??? I don't! ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 4:39:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Yikes! Ben, what are you doing trying to build a plane without having or reading the plans??? The plans is all there is. There ain't no other way to do it. Maybe it's time to order a new set of plans (or put the project to rest). Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 04:18:59 PM PST US From: "Chet's Mail" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Roll Call Lowell, I have had the radiator checked, my timing is 28 degrees but I plan to try 30 degrees. My waster inlet looks to be clean, and I'm runing 100LL. My pump looks to be in excellent shape, I just replaced the head gasket. How can you tell a Model T waster pump from a Model A? Does any one know if Don Hicks used a T or A water pump? Chet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pieti Lowell" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 10:27 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Roll Call > > > Chet, > Have you: > Set timing at 28 Deg ? > Cleaned the casting out from the water inlet with a stiff wire ? > Use a Ford T water pump in place of the A pump ? > Check head gasket and H2O openings.in castings ? > Radiator clean and large enough ? > Auto fuel ? > I run a Ford B supped- up to 90 HP and when it ran hot,In the water pump I > found one impeller of two broke off, welded it on, solved problem, I use a > Funk pump, externally mounted, like the "T" pump, which I have used in the > past with success. > Pieti Lowell > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196633#196633 > > > ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 04:28:17 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat And the long fuselage version gives you a bit more cockpit length and you can always widen the fuselage as many have done (widened mine two inches). Of course that doesn't necessarily increase your gross weight. Rick On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 1:01 PM, Kip and Beth Gardner < kipandbeth@earthlink.net> wrote: > kipandbeth@earthlink.net> > > Tom, > > There is a saying that you may not have heard since you are fairly new to > the list - "This plane was designed when midgets ruled the earth!" Bernard, > by all accounts, was about 5'4" and weighed maybe 140 lbs. Now that's just > about my size, and my wife is about the same, and our daughter will probably > be about equal or less as an adult, so for us, yes, it's a capable 2-seater. > Heck, we could even carry 50-60 lbs of baggage if there was space for it! > For two 200+ lb. guys, add in a full load of fuel and you're close to gross, > if not over, depending on how light or heavy you built your plane. > > Kip G. > > On Aug 5, 2008, at 2:48 PM, Tom Anderson wrote: > >> tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com> >> >> walt, >> How big-butted are you talking about here? >> Furthermore, is the Piet a truly capable 2-seater at all? >> >> -------- >> Location: Eastern N.C. >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196707#196707 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 04:32:35 PM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Just for kicks Looks just as beautiful in Ohio as it did at Broadhead. Rick On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Don Emch wrote: > > Just thought I'd throw this picture in from a week or so ago, somewhere in > Ohio... > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196756#196756 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/flying_circus00541_181.jpg > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 05:21:29 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat And to look at it from the other perspective, my Pietenpol is very close to Don's in most respects (65 Continental, wire wheels), but mine is heavy, weighing 745 lbs empty. I also carry 15 gallons of fuel, and I weigh 200. I can carry passengers as heavy as 205 - as long as I'm flying off a 6,000' runway. Climb rate on a hot day with a 200 lb passenger is somewhere around 100 fpm, +/- 90 fpm. My home field is 2,000' long and I will NOT carry passengers out of it. You midwesterners don't know how good you've got it. When you say a strip is 2,000' long, you fail to mention that that is the RUNWAY length, but that the approaches are long and flat and you can fly a mile before you hit anything. In North Carolina, when we say a runway is 2,000 long, that means after 2,000' you come to the 100' tall trees. You've got to be able to get off the ground and then CLIMB! I've done the calculations, and if I lift off after a 400' roll, that means I've got 1600' to climb 100'. At 50 mph I'll cover that 1600' in 21.8 seconds, and in that 21.8 seconds at 200 fpm I will climb exactly 72 feet. Would I carry passengers out of a short field in the Midwest? I did it at Brodhead and got about that much climb rate. Will I do it at home? No thanks - I'll fly 15 miles and meet them at Sanford, with a 6,000' runway and approaches similar to Wisconsin. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat Build light! Somewhere I once saw "Simplicate and add lightness!" Just for some numbers, I have an A-65 Continental and it weighs in at 626lbs. empty. Full fuel is just under 15 gallons. I regularly carry a 230lb. passenger with full fuel and me at nearly 185 lbs. It doesn't exactly claw for altitude at that weight, but basically I know if I can get the passenger into the front hole I can lift them out of a respectable field. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196754#196754 ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 05:33:03 PM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat So would the Model A pull the pietenpol along safely with 320 lbs of humans + fuel? "I say it that way so I don't get in trouble for telling the misses weight." hehe --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Don Emch wrote: > From: Don Emch > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 7:59 AM > Emch" > > Build light! > > Somewhere I once saw "Simplicate and add > lightness!" > > Just for some numbers, I have an A-65 Continental and it > weighs in at 626lbs. empty. Full fuel is just under 15 > gallons. I regularly carry a 230lb. passenger with full > fuel and me at nearly 185 lbs. It doesn't exactly claw > for altitude at that weight, but basically I know if I can > get the passenger into the front hole I can lift them out of > a respectable field. > > Don Emch > NX899DE > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196754#196754 > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 05:35:56 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat Hey Jack, Same considerations down here in Georgia. 2000' means up and out and on top of it ALL in 2000'. This and other considerations (heat, humidity, too much BBQ) explains the puckered look of most pilot seats in Piets from the South... ;) Lotta sphincter muscles workin' over time down here on hot days in Piets... Jeff At 8:20 PM -0400 8/5/08, Jack Phillips wrote: > >And to look at it from the other perspective, my Pietenpol is very close to >Don's in most respects (65 Continental, wire wheels), but mine is heavy, >weighing 745 lbs empty. I also carry 15 gallons of fuel, and I weigh 200. >I can carry passengers as heavy as 205 - as long as I'm flying off a 6,000' >runway. Climb rate on a hot day with a 200 lb passenger is somewhere around >100 fpm, +/- 90 fpm. > >My home field is 2,000' long and I will NOT carry passengers out of it. You >midwesterners don't know how good you've got it. When you say a strip is >2,000' long, you fail to mention that that is the RUNWAY length, but that >the approaches are long and flat and you can fly a mile before you hit >anything. In North Carolina, when we say a runway is 2,000 long, that means >after 2,000' you come to the 100' tall trees. You've got to be able to get >off the ground and then CLIMB! I've done the calculations, and if I lift >off after a 400' roll, that means I've got 1600' to climb 100'. At 50 mph >I'll cover that 1600' in 21.8 seconds, and in that 21.8 seconds at 200 fpm I >will climb exactly 72 feet. Would I carry passengers out of a short field >in the Midwest? I did it at Brodhead and got about that much climb rate. >Will I do it at home? No thanks - I'll fly 15 miles and meet them at >Sanford, with a 6,000' runway and approaches similar to Wisconsin. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch >Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:59 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: How hard is it to get into the front seat > > >Build light! > >Somewhere I once saw "Simplicate and add lightness!" > >Just for some numbers, I have an A-65 Continental and it weighs in at >626lbs. empty. Full fuel is just under 15 gallons. I regularly carry a >230lb. passenger with full fuel and me at nearly 185 lbs. It doesn't >exactly claw for altitude at that weight, but basically I know if I can get >the passenger into the front hole I can lift them out of a respectable >field. > >Don Emch >NX899DE > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196754#196754 > > -- --- Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D. Associate Professor of Ophthalmology Emory University School of Medicine Editor-in-Chief Molecular Vision ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:29:55 PM PST US From: Kip and Beth Gardner Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat One of the old Buckeye Association newsletters (back in the days when Frank pavliga was the editor, I think) had a drawing on a way to do this. Kip G. On Aug 5, 2008, at 6:22 PM, Jim Ash wrote: > > Has anybody done the door mod with a tube-and-fabric fuselage > instead of a wooden one? > > Jim Ash > > -----Original Message----- >> From: gcardinal >> Sent: Aug 5, 2008 7:10 AM >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front >> seat >> >> >> >> Charley, >> >> Keri-Ann Price sells plans for a modification to add a door to the >> passenger >> seat. Her website is: >> >> http://www.geocities.com/keriannprice/Pietenpol_Plan_Packages.html >> >> Greg >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "charles loomis" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 3:48 AM >> Subject: Pietenpol-List: How hard is it to get into the front seat >> >> >>> >>> >>> I think I remember seeing a video showing that it was pretty >>> difficult. >>> The reason I ask is because my misses is not the most flexible >>> person and >>> she has a bad back. I really wish to build a Pietenpol with a >>> Model A >>> engine, but I also want to take her flying and show her why there is >>> nothing else like it. >>> Charley >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:45:29 PM PST US From: "gcardinal" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Homemade Turnbuckles NX18235 has 3/32 cables bracing the cabanes. No adjustments needed in 140 hours of flying. Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pieti Lowell" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 9:04 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Homemade Turnbuckles > > > Has anyone talked with Frank Pavliga ? His Piet used 3/32 cable to cross > angle support the cabanes, and had to keep tightening because of stretch, > and replaced them after a few hours of flight. Do other applications of > 3/32 cable experience the same problem ? Don't chance it. > Allen Rudolf's piet still flys with 1/8 Th" cables and the plane weights > under 640 Lbs. And will fly two people on a 90 Deg. day with a standard > Ford A just turning 1950 RPM. > Pieti Lowell[/quote] > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=196610#196610 > > > ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 09:15:33 PM PST US From: "Dick Navratil" Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercom Does anyone have a intercom installed? I tried a portable Sigtronics and it didnt work, it kept the mic open because of wind noise. I'm thinking it might work if I installed a PTT in the front cockpit and we talked but broadcast the conversation, but I dont want that. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 09:34:27 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: intercom Dick, I use an HM200 (http://www.ozpilot.com.au/cgi-bin/webitempage.pl?hm200). There is a fair amount of wind noise but I put some large foam covers over the microphone (ala Sports Commentators) and that stops some of it. It also plugs nicely into the Icom hand held. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Dick Navratil Sent: Wednesday, 6 August 2008 2:14 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: intercom Does anyone have a intercom installed? I tried a portable Sigtronics and it didnt work, it kept the mic open because of wind noise. I'm thinking it might work if I installed a PTT in the front cockpit and we talked but broadcast the conversation, but I dont want that. Dick N. ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 09:45:51 PM PST US From: Ben Ramler Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Bill, If you are going to blast me for what I am going to do maybe I should consider dropping off the list. Ben in MN ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 5:53:25 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons Ben, Ben, Ben. Yes, it is possible to build an Air Camper from the Flying and Glider Manual drawings. I wouldn't want to, but it's been done. Those drawings are so small I find them pretty hard to read, though. Nonetheless, those are your plans. I assume you "splurged" for the $8 for the EAA reprint of the FGM. Use those plans to deternmine how many ribs are affected by the ailerons. As for $150 being too much to spend, how do you plan to build the rest of the plane if $150 for a set of plans is too much money? How are you going to come up with the cash for a motor? How about a propellor? Wheels? Instruments? The cheapest recent build that I can recall hearing about was around $5,000. Assuming someone gave you all of the materials to build the plane, and you live on a property big enough to have your own runway, what are you going to do when it comes time to fill the tank at $5 a gallon (or more)? The Pietenpol is one of the most economical "real" aircraft you can build. It can be built cheaply, but it still ain't free. Building an airplane from plans drawn in 1934 is a challenge. Building an airplane without using those plans, and not spending any money is called dreaming. Pleasant dreams, Ben. BC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> nope. Dad said the flyer and glider manual is what to use. you have 150 to spend??? I don't! ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 4:39:04 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Yikes! Ben, what are you doing trying to build a plane without having or reading the plans??? The plans is all there is. There ain't no other way to do it. Maybe it's time to order a new set of plans (or put the project to rest). Or are you just pulling our collective leg? Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 5:08 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> not sure where the rest of the plans went to though. I have hard time reading plans though to be honest. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Phillips, Jack" Sent: Tuesday, August 5, 2008 12:03:57 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Count them. You do have the plans, don't you? Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Ben Ramler Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:21 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: ribs and ailerons --> Afternoon Group, Here's a question... Once all 31 ribs are made how many of the ribs need to be set aside for the ailerons? 73, Ben in MN ________________________________ Message 49 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:40 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Ribs and sanding End grain cannot be succesfully glued. It may hold for a short time with little stress on it but you'd better not trust your backside to it. Glueing edge or flat grain will hold up to the strength of the fibers. Sanded joints will never be as strong as planed or scraped ones. Wood faces should also be fresh at the time of glueing. The best way is to learn how to use and properly sharpen cabinet scrapers. It's not that hard but does have it's own learning curve. Isn't that what we're supposed to be doing? Learning? http://woodgears.ca/scraper/index.html http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00007.asp? "Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely." ~Karen Kaiser Clark Clif > > Gary's comments refer more to glue joints for end-grain spruce (or > whatever softwood you are building with). When spruce is sawn, the end > grain has open pores which will absorb the adhesive. If the end is sanded > (and especially if the wood gets burned in sanding), the pores tend to get > clogged, which impedes the absorption of the adhesive. If the epoxy > doesn't "bite" into the wood, the joint will not achieve the strength that > is needed. That is a bad thing. > Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.