Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Sun 08/10/08


Total Messages Posted: 16



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 11:04 AM - Piet Roster (Dick Carden)
     2. 12:12 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Tim Willis)
     3. 12:30 PM - Piet Roster (Oscar Zuniga)
     4. 12:34 PM - wing leding edge (airlion@bellsouth.net)
     5. 12:41 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Owen Davies)
     6. 12:45 PM - another day of Pietenpoling (Oscar Zuniga)
     7. 12:58 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Tim Willis)
     8. 01:15 PM - Re: Riblett's Info ()
     9. 01:23 PM - Re: Piet Roster (Jack T. Textor)
    10. 01:26 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Owen Davies)
    11. 01:31 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (outofthebox50@yahoo.com)
    12. 01:55 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Tim Willis)
    13. 02:01 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Tim Willis)
    14. 02:34 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Owen Davies)
    15. 04:17 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Michael Silvius)
    16. 05:29 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Owen Davies)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 11:04:48 AM PST US
    From: Dick Carden <flywrite@verizon.net>
    Subject: Piet Roster
    Is there a roster/list of Piet/GN-1 owners and builders, and if so, (1) can piet list folks access it, and (2) if (1) is "yes", how can it be accessed. Dick Carden From: Pietenpol-List Digest Server <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List Digest: 10 Msgs - 08/09/08 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Pietenpol-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Pietenpol-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 08-08-09&Archive=Pietenpol Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 08-08-09&Archive=Pietenpol =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 08/09/08: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 08:01 AM - Autogas vs.Avgas (Oscar Zuniga) 2. 08:51 AM - Re: Plywood () 3. 09:41 AM - Riblett's Info (Pieti Lowell) 4. 10:45 AM - Riblett's grafts (Pieti Lowell) 5. 01:21 PM - Re: Autogas vs.Avgas (Gene & Tammy) 6. 03:48 PM - Re: Plywood (Tim Willis) 7. 04:42 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Tim Willis) 8. 07:38 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (Pieti Lowell) 9. 08:17 PM - Re: Riblett's Info (jeremy bramall) 10. 08:53 PM - Delaware, Ohio Fly-In (shad bell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:30 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Autogas vs.Avgas >Of course, all Pietenpol owners drain their fuel system for the winter. What is "winter"? Down here, we fly our airplanes year 'round ;o) PS, I fly avgas in 41CC exclusively. It's an airplane, not a car ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:51:23 AM PST US From: <catdesigns@att.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood It's what I used on my ribs. Lately I have found a lower quality plywood being sold in my local hobby shop so be careful. I boiled and soaked the good stuff in water just to check it first and it was just fine. Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "mr-fix-all" <jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com> Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:34 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood > <jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com> > > Question, is the 1/16 90 deg birch plywood that aircraft spruce the same > 1/16 90 deg birch plywood that hobby stores sell. > > I received my riblett plans from Roman today and I need to order plywood. > > -------- > "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, > and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197373#197373 > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:32 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:45:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's grafts From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> The lift,stall and cruise of the Piet, 4412 & 612 airfoils are very interesting to those that need more lift. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197529#197529 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p3_653.jpg ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:21:51 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bellsouth.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Autogas vs.Avgas Oscar, not getting to fly your Piet in the winter is like a pilot never getting to watch "Waldo Pepper". They just don't know what their missing. Gene N502R (an all season bird). > > What is "winter"? Down here, we fly our airplanes year 'round ;o) > >> > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > > -- > Checked by AVG. > 5:54 AM > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:48:00 PM PST US From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood The plywood of this sort here near Austin, TX, in both the Hobby Lobby (for sure) and Michael's (as I recall, not so sure) says it is for hobby use only, and not for aircraft use. Go to Boulter plywood in greater Boston. They have a website. A 4X8 foot sheet is $23 plus freight, on a special. and they will cut it into either 4X4 feet or 2X8 feet. UPS may charge some special rates for either, but they will tell you. This is good marine plywood, and very suitable for airplane use. You may want quite a bit, for not only rib gussets, but for wing leading edges. Add it up and see what you think. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: catdesigns@att.net >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 10:51 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Plywood > > >It's what I used on my ribs. Lately I have found a lower quality plywood >being sold in my local hobby shop so be careful. I boiled and soaked the >good stuff in water just to check it first and it was just fine. > >Chris Tracy >Sacramento, Ca >Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "mr-fix-all" <jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com> >To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 11:34 AM >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Plywood > > >> <jb.spiegel@us.schneider-electric.com> >> >> Question, is the 1/16 90 deg birch plywood that aircraft spruce the same >> 1/16 90 deg birch plywood that hobby stores sell. >> >> I received my riblett plans from Roman today and I need to order plywood. >> >> -------- >> "Be who you are and say what you think, those that mind don't matter, >> and those that matter don't mind" Dr. Seuss >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197373#197373 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:47 PM PST US From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info Lowell, Thanks for posting this. Some may not know of your experience with various airfoils. Of course, you are one of the few (maybe the only one) who has changed wings on the same plane with the same engine,and changed engines with the same wing and plane, and then changed both. You can report empirical data on the effect of each of the changes. I think, based on talking with you about this earlier this year, and our more recent discussions at Brodhead, many builders should use either a Riblett GA30U-612 or a GA30U-613.5 instead of BP's airfoil. I believe you agree with that evaluation as a good decision for all but Piet purists. (Room for all instide the tent.) And we have discussed the merits of both these Riblett airfoils. I'd like to lay out some impressions of the 613.5, and see if you will confirm or change this post, for the benefit of others considering these choices. I'll ask you to pardon me in advance,if I am misinterpreting any of our discussions, or if I have crossed them up with similar discussions with Bill Rewey or Roman Bukolt. As you know, and as we have discussed, the 613.5 is "fatter" than the other airfoils. You and I have discussed its comparative merits. For the benefit of others on the board, the 613.5 has more loft on the Y-axis and a bigger radius, resulting in more camber. Otherwise it looks much like the NACA 2412 or 4412 and the Riblett 612, all of them peaking "Y" at 30 percent of the "X" (chord). All of these have better laminarity than BP's airfoil in the early part of the airfoil, before the airflow "goes turbulent." (All are characterized as "turbulent airfoils," but some are more turbulent than others.) The Riblett GA30U-613.5 seems to me a better choice for a Piet with less powerful engines, such as most Model A's (not your fuel-injected baby) or Continental A-65s. I think you have agreed with this opinion, perhaps even postulated it yourself. The 613.5 would give the Piet builder a faster climb, better safe payload on hot days, etc. A wing built with it would weigh a little more than one using a 612 airfoil-- how much more depending upon whether the builder uses filler blocks at the top of each spar or a full-height built-up ply and wood spar. Alternatively, the 612 might be better for higher hp Piets. With 100 hp or more the pilot gets a faster climb in any event, and the 612 would have less drag and allow a faster cruising speed than the 613.5. And as you and Mr. Riblett have reported, there are no negatives associated with the 612 when compared to BP's original "FC-10" airfoil. (We may not know that much about the pitching moment of the 613.5 as yet.) Do you agree with this discussion of the 613.5 vs. the 612? And with a 612 foir higher hp Piets? Is this the right way//a right way to think of the choices? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Pieti Lowell <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 11:38 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:38:20 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Riblett's Info From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> Tim , as per usual, you are on track, Riblitt's better design even over the 612 is the 613.5, As you know it is easy to see the difference . But you can also carry a larger fuel tank in the 613.5. Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197633#197633 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:17:44 PM PST US From: jeremy bramall <outofthebox50@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info Alright, so if you had 90hp, not heavy or light, and wanted better stol characteristics, which would you choose? Jeremy in Dallas Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net> wrote: Lowell, Thanks for posting this. Some may not know of your experience with various airfoils. Of course, you are one of the few (maybe the only one) who has changed wings on the same plane with the same engine,and changed engines with the same wing and plane, and then changed both. You can report empirical data on the effect of each of the changes. I think, based on talking with you about this earlier this year, and our more recent discussions at Brodhead, many builders should use either a Riblett GA30U-612 or a GA30U-613.5 instead of BP's airfoil. I believe you agree with that evaluation as a good decision for all but Piet purists. (Room for all instide the tent.) And we have discussed the merits of both these Riblett airfoils. I'd like to lay out some impressions of the 613.5, and see if you will confirm or change this post, for the benefit of others considering these choices. I'll ask you to pardon me in advance,if I am misinterpreting any of our discussions, or if I have crossed them up with similar discussions with Bill Rewey or Roman Bukolt. As you know, and as we have discussed, the 613.5 is "fatter" than the other airfoils. You and I have discussed its comparative merits. For the benefit of others on the board, the 613.5 has more loft on the Y-axis and a bigger radius, resulting in more camber. Otherwise it looks much like the NACA 2412 or 4412 and the Riblett 612, all of them peaking "Y" at 30 percent of the "X" (chord). All of these have better laminarity than BP's airfoil in the early part of the airfoil, before the airflow "goes turbulent." (All are characterized as "turbulent airfoils," but some are more turbulent than others.) The Riblett GA30U-613.5 seems to me a better choice for a Piet with less powerful engines, such as most Model A's (not your fuel-injected baby) or Continental A-65s. I think you have agreed with this opinion, perhaps even postulated it yourself. The 613.5 would give the Piet builder a faster climb, better safe payload on hot days, etc. A wing built with it would weigh a little more than one using a 612 airfoil-- how much more depending upon whether the builder uses filler blocks at the top of each spar or a full-height built-up ply and wood spar. Alternatively, the 612 might be better for higher hp Piets. With 100 hp or more the pilot gets a faster climb in any event, and the 612 would have less drag and allow a faster cruising speed than the 613.5. And as you and Mr. Riblett have reported, there are no negatives associated with the 612 when compared to BP's original "FC-10" airfoil. (We may not know that much about the pitching moment of the 613.5 as yet.) Do you agree with this discussion of the 613.5 vs. the 612? And with a 612 foir higher hp Piets? Is this the right way//a right way to think of the choices? Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Pieti Lowell >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 11:38 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 > > >Attachments: > >http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg >http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:53:27 PM PST US From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Delaware, Ohio Fly-In Hello Ohio Area-Pieters,- Just wondering if any Ohio Piets planned on a ttending the Delaware, Ohio fly-in on Aug 16, 17.- If any one plans on go ing send me an e-mail, and they can stop by Chapman Field in Centerburg Ohi o for free donuts and coffee before we fly over to Delaware, ( before 9AM). - Skipp G., Mike C., And Don Emch, let me know if you want to go I will w ait for you and we can make a group arrival on Saturday Morning.- Dad say s they are wanting fly-bys, so if you want to we can do some in-trail, or l oose formation fly-bys low, and slow. - Shad=0A=0A=0A


    Message 2


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    Time: 12:12:16 PM PST US
    From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Jeremy, On a Pietenpol with 90hp, seeking more STOL characteristics, I would choose the Riblett GA30U-613.5. On a much faster plane, such as a Zenith 601 or a KR-2, the best choice would be another airfoil, and might be a NACA 4412. You are seeking fast cruise in the latter case, not STOL. Moreover, on your Piet, as Lowell points out, you can put more gas in the wing tank space with the 613.5. Go nuts, widen the center wing to 36-40 inches, and add a "Tiger Moth bulge" as well, and you would really increase the tank capacity. And at the perfect spot, right at the CG. Your arse would never endure the range you might thus achieve. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: jeremy bramall <outofthebox50@yahoo.com> >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 10:17 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > >Alright, so if you had 90hp, not heavy or light, and wanted better stol characteristics, which would you choose? > > Jeremy in Dallas > >Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net> wrote: > >Lowell, > >Thanks for posting this. Some may not know of your experience with various airfoils. Of course, you are one of the few (maybe the only one) who has changed wings on the same plane with the same engine,and changed engines with the same wing and plane, and then changed both. You can report empirical data on the effect of each of the changes. > >I think, based on talking with you about this earlier this year, and our more recent discussions at Brodhead, many builders should use either a Riblett GA30U-612 or a GA30U-613.5 instead of BP's airfoil. I believe you agree with that evaluation as a good decision for all but Piet purists. (Room for all instide the tent.) And we have discussed the merits of both these Riblett airfoils. > >I'd like to lay out some impressions of the 613.5, and see if you will confirm or change this post, for the benefit of others considering these choices. I'll ask you to pardon me in advance,if I am misinterpreting any of our discussions, or if I have crossed them up with similar discussions with Bill Rewey or Roman Bukolt. > >As you know, and as we have discussed, the 613.5 is "fatter" than the other airfoils. You and I have discussed its comparative merits. > >For the benefit of others on the board, the 613.5 has more loft on the Y-axis and a bigger radius, resulting in more camber. Otherwise it looks much like the NACA 2412 or 4412 and the Riblett 612, all of them peaking "Y" at 30 percent of the "X" (chord). All of these have better laminarity than BP's airfoil in the early part of the airfoil, before the airflow "goes turbulent." (All are characterized as "turbulent airfoils," but some are more turbulent than others.) > >The Riblett GA30U-613.5 seems to me a better choice for a Piet with less powerful engines, such as most Model A's (not your fuel-injected baby) or Continental A-65s. I think you have agreed with this opinion, perhaps even postulated it yourself. > >The 613.5 would give the Piet builder a faster climb, better safe payload on hot days, etc. A wing built with it would weigh a little more than one using a 612 airfoil-- how much more depending upon whether the builder uses filler blocks at the top of each spar or a full-height built-up ply and wood spar. > >Alternatively, the 612 might be better for higher hp Piets. With 100 hp or more the pilot gets a faster climb in any event, and the 612 would have less drag and allow a faster cruising speed than the 613.5. And as you and Mr. Riblett have reported, there are no negatives associated with the 612 when compared to BP's original "FC-10" airfoil. (We may not know that much about the pitching moment of the 613.5 as yet.) > >Do you agree with this discussion of the 613.5 vs. the 612? And with a 612 foir higher hp Piets? Is this the right way//a right way to think of the choices? > >Tim in central TX > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Pieti Lowell >>Sent: Aug 9, 2008 11:38 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info >> >> >>Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 >> >> >> >> >>Attachments: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg >>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 3


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    Time: 12:30:57 PM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Piet Roster
    Dick; There is a very useful and complete listing of Piets and GN-1s that is published by Doc and Dee Mosher, editors of the BPA Newsletter. It is not available online. The booklet lists the airplanes in several different formats for easy searching. You can get one of these by contacting Doc. Complete info is here: http://www.pietenpols.org/ , and while you're at it be sure to sign up for a subscription to the newsletter! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 4


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    Time: 12:34:05 PM PST US
    From: airlion@bellsouth.net
    Subject: wing leding edge


    Message 5


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    Time: 12:41:04 PM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Tim Willis wrote: > On a Pietenpol with 90hp, seeking more STOL characteristics, I would choose the Riblett GA30U-613.5. On a much faster plane, such as a Zenith 601 or a KR-2, the best choice would be another airfoil, and might be a NACA 4412. It's not really Piet-related, but you bring up something that has interested me for some time. A STOL KR-2 could be a really interesting sport aircraft. I wonder whether the GA30U-613.5 would be suitable for such an application? For the sake of argument, picture a Corvair on the nose and stall and top speeds just within the LSA limit. Owen


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:45:40 PM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: another day of Pietenpoling
    Since the list has once again quieted down, I thought I'd just mention that I had another fine time in my Piet yesterday. Weather was typical hot August, wind was the usual slight x-wind out of the southeast, and the objective was Cannon Field, home of the International Liaison Pilot and Aircraft Association here in San Antonio ( http://www.centercomp.com/ILPA/ ). It's 25 statute miles from my home field, as the crow flies and if I don't violate the controlled airspace on the way. I never made it to Cannon. Got distracted with the many sights to see, the air was very nice (not too bumpy), everything is still green from the rains of a few weeks ago, and I needed to practice laying down a nice swath of smoke on a couple of fields along the way. It's easy if you pick fields with the rows lined up with the wind, but trickier if they are cross wind or skewed. I don't have smoke yet but a guy has to practice ;o) The Piet was in top flying form, performance was great, so were my landings. Poor Steve Dortch was down on the ground by his hangar, trying his level best to make his old Suburban turn from a toad into a princess by the application of a few meager coats of red paint, but between getting all wrapped up in blue masking tape and fighting the heat and breeze, I think he and his painting buddies got more paint on them than on the Suburban. By the way, the guy wielding the spray gun (mostly) was Steve Jones, editor of the EAA Chapter 35 newsletter that was nominated for one of the top five awards at Oshkosh for "best chapter newsletter". He and his wife Freda are our next-hangar-neighbors and are great folks. Not sure how the awards ended up but getting into the top five at Oshkosh is plenty to be proud about. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:58:47 PM PST US
    From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    As I recall, Mark Langford has documented EVERYTHING about his work on his Corvair-equipped KR-2. He would be the guy to ask about the Riblett airfoil. Tim in central TX off subject-- do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net> >Sent: Aug 10, 2008 2:40 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >Tim Willis wrote: >> On a Pietenpol with 90hp, seeking more STOL characteristics, I would choose the Riblett GA30U-613.5. On a much faster plane, such as a Zenith 601 or a KR-2, the best choice would be another airfoil, and might be a NACA 4412. >It's not really Piet-related, but you bring up something that has >interested me for some time. A STOL KR-2 could be a really interesting >sport aircraft. I wonder whether the GA30U-613.5 would be suitable for >such an application? For the sake of argument, picture a Corvair on the >nose and stall and top speeds just within the LSA limit. > >Owen > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 01:15:51 PM PST US
    From: <catdesigns@att.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Tim and/or Lowell How did you decide where is the CG is located and what angle of attack to use when switching to a 613.5 airfoil? Chris Tracy Sacramento, Ca Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis@earthlink.net> Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > <timothywillis@earthlink.net> > > Lowell, > > Thanks for posting this. Some may not know of your experience with > various airfoils. Of course, you are one of the few (maybe the only one) > who has changed wings on the same plane with the same engine,and changed > engines with the same wing and plane, and then changed both. You can > report empirical data on the effect of each of the changes. > > I think, based on talking with you about this earlier this year, and our > more recent discussions at Brodhead, many builders should use either a > Riblett GA30U-612 or a GA30U-613.5 instead of BP's airfoil. I believe you > agree with that evaluation as a good decision for all but Piet purists. > (Room for all instide the tent.) And we have discussed the merits of both > these Riblett airfoils. > > I'd like to lay out some impressions of the 613.5, and see if you will > confirm or change this post, for the benefit of others considering these > choices. I'll ask you to pardon me in advance,if I am misinterpreting any > of our discussions, or if I have crossed them up with similar discussions > with Bill Rewey or Roman Bukolt. > > As you know, and as we have discussed, the 613.5 is "fatter" than the > other airfoils. You and I have discussed its comparative merits. > > For the benefit of others on the board, the 613.5 has more loft on the > Y-axis and a bigger radius, resulting in more camber. Otherwise it looks > much like the NACA 2412 or 4412 and the Riblett 612, all of them peaking > "Y" at 30 percent of the "X" (chord). All of these have better laminarity > than BP's airfoil in the early part of the airfoil, before the airflow > "goes turbulent." (All are characterized as "turbulent airfoils," but > some are more turbulent than others.) > > The Riblett GA30U-613.5 seems to me a better choice for a Piet with less > powerful engines, such as most Model A's (not your fuel-injected baby) or > Continental A-65s. I think you have agreed with this opinion, perhaps > even postulated it yourself. > > The 613.5 would give the Piet builder a faster climb, better safe payload > on hot days, etc. A wing built with it would weigh a little more than one > using a 612 airfoil-- how much more depending upon whether the builder > uses filler blocks at the top of each spar or a full-height built-up ply > and wood spar. > > Alternatively, the 612 might be better for higher hp Piets. With 100 hp > or more the pilot gets a faster climb in any event, and the 612 would have > less drag and allow a faster cruising speed than the 613.5. And as you > and Mr. Riblett have reported, there are no negatives associated with the > 612 when compared to BP's original "FC-10" airfoil. (We may not know that > much about the pitching moment of the 613.5 as yet.) > > Do you agree with this discussion of the 613.5 vs. the 612? And with a > 612 foir higher hp Piets? Is this the right way//a right way to think of > the choices? > > Tim in central TX > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Pieti Lowell <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> >>Sent: Aug 9, 2008 11:38 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info >> >><Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> >> >>Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol >> >> >> >> >>Read this topic online here: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 >> >> >> >> >>Attachments: >> >>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg >>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:23:21 PM PST US
    Subject: Piet Roster
    From: "Jack T. Textor" <jtextor@thepalmergroup.com>
    Dick, Go to Glenn Thomas's very nice site www.flyingwood.com. Jack www.textors.com


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:26:11 PM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Tim Willis wrote: > As I recall, Mark Langford has documented EVERYTHING about his work on his Corvair-equipped KR-2. He would be the guy to ask about the Riblett airfoil. Thanks, Tim. I know of Mark's plane, but did not think of him for the Riblett airfoil. My impression was that he was trying to get high-end performance out of his plane, while I am trying to limit the high end and extend the bottom end just enough to make sure of being within the LSA stall requirement. Or would be, if this were anything more than a thought exercise. A Piet is still my first priority--though it could wind up having the wing on the bottom. Owen


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:31:40 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com
    I have spent some time researching the KR-2S. It might be our next build. If you get the stall speed down, the builder can set his own VNE right? Jeremy in Dallas ------Original Message------ From: Owen Davies Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Aug 10, 2008 2:40 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info Tim Willis wrote: > On a Pietenpol with 90hp, seeking more STOL characteristics, I would choose the Riblett GA30U-613.5. On a much faster plane, such as a Zenith 601 or a KR-2, the best choice would be another airfoil, and might be a NACA 4412. It's not really Piet-related, but you bring up something that has interested me for some time. A STOL KR-2 could be a really interesting sport aircraft. I wonder whether the GA30U-613.5 would be suitable for such an application? For the sake of argument, picture a Corvair on the nose and stall and top speeds just within the LSA limit. Owen Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:55:09 PM PST US
    From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Good question. Lowell can answer this better than I, for it's mostly theory for me. But I'll try: Most airfoils have far less pitching moment than the Piet. The Piet's reverse pitching moment lets you move the CG back as far as 25 percent back on the airfoil, as you likely know. Most airfoils are closer to the 20 percent mark (the front limit on Piet's range). Accordingly, a BIG assumption might be to move the CG froward a bit, into the 22-20 percent of the chord range when using the Riblett airfoils. Aren't you addressing the "angle of incidence," the angle of the chord of the wing to the airplane's axis. This is the 2 degrees the airfoil is tilted up above the upper longeron (exactly the 1 inch recommended taller front cabane on the Piet) when using BP's airfoil. Piper Cubs have about this same 2 degrees with another airfoil (Clark Y?), and a degree or two is common, I think, on Taylorcraft, Aeroncas, and the like. (Someone else should confirm this.) So I'd start there with a Riblett 613.5, too. The advantage of a Piet is that you can change it some by cutting the cabanes-- start with them taller than you might want, then whittle front or back down slightly and test again. However, the word "test" is operative. Recall that when you change the design, you (or someone) has just become a test pilot. Lowell actually changed his wing, so he is the "go to guy" on this. Roman Bukolt has, or will soon have, a Riblett 612 on his Piet, and he should be another excellent source of information on this. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: catdesigns@att.net >Sent: Aug 10, 2008 3:14 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >Tim and/or Lowell > >How did you decide where is the CG is located and what angle of attack to >use when switching to a 613.5 airfoil? > >Chris Tracy >Sacramento, Ca >Website at http://www.WestCoastPiet.com > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Tim Willis" <timothywillis@earthlink.net> >To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com> >Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2008 4:42 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >> <timothywillis@earthlink.net> >> >> Lowell, >> >> Thanks for posting this. Some may not know of your experience with >> various airfoils. Of course, you are one of the few (maybe the only one) >> who has changed wings on the same plane with the same engine,and changed >> engines with the same wing and plane, and then changed both. You can >> report empirical data on the effect of each of the changes. >> >> I think, based on talking with you about this earlier this year, and our >> more recent discussions at Brodhead, many builders should use either a >> Riblett GA30U-612 or a GA30U-613.5 instead of BP's airfoil. I believe you >> agree with that evaluation as a good decision for all but Piet purists. >> (Room for all instide the tent.) And we have discussed the merits of both >> these Riblett airfoils. >> >> I'd like to lay out some impressions of the 613.5, and see if you will >> confirm or change this post, for the benefit of others considering these >> choices. I'll ask you to pardon me in advance,if I am misinterpreting any >> of our discussions, or if I have crossed them up with similar discussions >> with Bill Rewey or Roman Bukolt. >> >> As you know, and as we have discussed, the 613.5 is "fatter" than the >> other airfoils. You and I have discussed its comparative merits. >> >> For the benefit of others on the board, the 613.5 has more loft on the >> Y-axis and a bigger radius, resulting in more camber. Otherwise it looks >> much like the NACA 2412 or 4412 and the Riblett 612, all of them peaking >> "Y" at 30 percent of the "X" (chord). All of these have better laminarity >> than BP's airfoil in the early part of the airfoil, before the airflow >> "goes turbulent." (All are characterized as "turbulent airfoils," but >> some are more turbulent than others.) >> >> The Riblett GA30U-613.5 seems to me a better choice for a Piet with less >> powerful engines, such as most Model A's (not your fuel-injected baby) or >> Continental A-65s. I think you have agreed with this opinion, perhaps >> even postulated it yourself. >> >> The 613.5 would give the Piet builder a faster climb, better safe payload >> on hot days, etc. A wing built with it would weigh a little more than one >> using a 612 airfoil-- how much more depending upon whether the builder >> uses filler blocks at the top of each spar or a full-height built-up ply >> and wood spar. >> >> Alternatively, the 612 might be better for higher hp Piets. With 100 hp >> or more the pilot gets a faster climb in any event, and the 612 would have >> less drag and allow a faster cruising speed than the 613.5. And as you >> and Mr. Riblett have reported, there are no negatives associated with the >> 612 when compared to BP's original "FC-10" airfoil. (We may not know that >> much about the pitching moment of the 613.5 as yet.) >> >> Do you agree with this discussion of the 613.5 vs. the 612? And with a >> 612 foir higher hp Piets? Is this the right way//a right way to think of >> the choices? >> >> Tim in central TX >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Pieti Lowell <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> >>>Sent: Aug 9, 2008 11:38 AM >>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info >>> >>><Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> >>> >>>Riblett's letter to Pieti Lowell, ref air foils for a Pietenpol >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Read this topic online here: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=197525#197525 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Attachments: >>> >>>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p2_118.jpg >>>http://forums.matronics.com//files/riblett_p1_976.jpg >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 02:01:00 PM PST US
    From: Tim Willis <timothywillis@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    I recall Oscar and someone else posting such postulates and some calculations. This is altogether beyond my ken. IT might be a better discussion on the KR-2 board, but as Owen states about Mark L., most of those guys are trying to hit 200mph, not low and slow. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com >Sent: Aug 10, 2008 3:32 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >I have spent some time researching the KR-2S. It might be our next build. If you get the stall speed down, the builder can set his own VNE right? > >Jeremy in Dallas >------Original Message------ >From: Owen Davies >Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Sent: Aug 10, 2008 2:40 PM >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Riblett's Info > > >Tim Willis wrote: >> On a Pietenpol with 90hp, seeking more STOL characteristics, I would choose the Riblett GA30U-613.5. On a much faster plane, such as a Zenith 601 or a KR-2, the best choice would be another airfoil, and might be a NACA 4412. >It's not really Piet-related, but you bring up something that has >interested me for some time. A STOL KR-2 could be a really interesting >sport aircraft. I wonder whether the GA30U-613.5 would be suitable for >such an application? For the sake of argument, picture a Corvair on the >nose and stall and top speeds just within the LSA limit. > >Owen > > >Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > >


    Message 14


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    Time: 02:34:46 PM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    outofthebox50@yahoo.com wrote: > If you get the stall speed down, the builder can set his own VNE right? I'm not sure how that works. I believe the phrase "prop-limited" has some value. Ditto throttle stops. Yet, I'd hate to build a fast airplane, hoping they would trust me to hold it under my stated VNE. Could waste a lot of time and money that way. Owen


    Message 15


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    Time: 04:17:39 PM PST US
    From: "Michael Silvius" <silvius@gwi.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Owen: If a low wing wood built LSA is what you are loking for: http://www.menestrel.org.uk/ Like the Jodel D18 but without the coplexity of the bent wing Michael in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819@comcast.net> > Thanks, Tim. I know of Mark's plane, but did not think of him for the > Riblett airfoil. My impression was that he was trying to get high-end > performance out of his plane, while I am trying to limit the high end > and extend the bottom end just enough to make sure of being within the > LSA stall requirement. > > Or would be, if this were anything more than a thought exercise. A Piet > is still my first priority--though it could wind up having the wing on > the bottom. > > Owen


    Message 16


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    Time: 05:29:45 PM PST US
    From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Riblett's Info
    Michael Silvius wrote: > If a low wing wood built LSA is what you are loking for: > http://www.menestrel.org.uk/ > > Like the Jodel D18 but without the coplexity of the bent wing It's not that I am specifically looking for a low-wing airplane, nor even necessarily wood construction. I plan to build my Piet with the steel-tube fuselage, for example. (This does feel like sacrilege, even though the master designed it himself, but I really enjoy welding and it will be good practice for any future projects, which almost surely will be steel tube.) It's just that the KR-2 seems like such a natural place to begin for a small, cheap, two-place LSA. That Menestrel really is a pretty plane, though. It reminds me a lot of the Emeraude, a plane I've always loved. And the construction looks pretty simple. The builders' group doesn't seem to have any U.S. members, though. Thanks for pointing it out. Owen




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