---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/23/08: 29 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:23 AM - Perez Video (Jack T. Textor) 2. 06:46 AM - Grade 8 bolts (HelsperSew@aol.com) 3. 07:06 AM - Re: Perez Video (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 4. 07:07 AM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Steve Ruse) 5. 07:09 AM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Phillips, Jack) 6. 07:48 AM - Re: Grade 8 bolts- (HelsperSew@aol.com) 7. 07:58 AM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Steve Ruse) 8. 07:59 AM - Re: Perez Video (Michael Perez) 9. 08:06 AM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Ryan Mueller) 10. 08:11 AM - Re: Perez Video (Michael Perez) 11. 08:44 AM - Grade 8 bolts (HelsperSew@aol.com) 12. 12:22 PM - Re: another question for group (Gene Rambo) 13. 12:29 PM - Re: and . . . another question (Gene Rambo) 14. 12:29 PM - Re: another question for group (Phillips, Jack) 15. 12:45 PM - Re: new photos (Phillips, Jack) 16. 12:53 PM - Re: and . . . another question (Jack T. Textor) 17. 12:55 PM - Piano hinges (HelsperSew@aol.com) 18. 01:24 PM - Re: another question for group (H RULE) 19. 02:24 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Owen Davies) 20. 02:38 PM - Re: another question for group (walt) 21. 02:47 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (walt) 22. 03:19 PM - Re: Piano hinges (Gene Rambo) 23. 03:35 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (charles loomis) 24. 04:36 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Gene & Tammy) 25. 05:07 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Gene & Tammy) 26. 05:52 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (skellytown flyer) 27. 05:53 PM - Re: Piano hinges (Jack T. Textor) 28. 06:55 PM - Re: Grade 8 bolts (Ryan Mueller) 29. 06:57 PM - Re: another question for group (Skip Gadd) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:23:04 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Perez Video From: "Jack T. Textor" Michael, Just a quick note to let you know how much I enjoyed your video. Your work and shop are meticulous. Someone who is just starting their ribs and jig could certainly benefit from watching it. I liked your delivery and also think the picture and sound quality is very good. I highly recommend it. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:46:17 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Gentlemen, I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone think this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am second-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:06:35 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Perez Video Jack, I would have to agree, he is definitely working on a great idea full of good information and certainly helpful to anyone building ribs. I am certain that future installments will only improve. I can wait to see the next set of hints. I would encourage anyone interested in building to order the video, its well worth the investment in cash and time. Its pretty neat that we have this type of resource in development and available. Actually I was interested in doing something similar but was to lazy and too much interested in gluing my own sticks together making progress rather then video. For the sake of all builders and would be builders I am glad there are people interested in sharing their knowledge like Mike Perez, Michael Cuy, Chuck G and with the rest of us. I hate to say it but I am a sucker for anything Pietenpol, especially if I can learn from it! John Recine In a message dated 9/23/2008 9:24:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jtextor@thepalmergroup.com writes: Michael, Just a quick note to let you know how much I enjoyed your video. Your work and shop are meticulous. Someone who is just starting their ribs and jig could certainly benefit from watching it. I liked your delivery and also think the picture and sound quality is very good. I highly recommend it. Jack www.textors.com (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:03 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Dan, Back when I was buying prop bolts, I did a lot of reading about this. I read enough to keep me from using anything but AN bolts. Prop bolts are pretty critical, and consider what would happen if your prop departs when already in an aft CG position? Besides, you can get AN bolts from Aircraft Spruce for about $2 each. I believe they are the same thing as prop bolts, EXCEPT the threaded portion of the bolt is shorter. For that reason, you have to be very careful to make sure you don't bottom out the nuts on the non-threaded area. As long as you get the correct length, it is a non-issue. My .02 Steve Ruse Norman, OK Quoting HelsperSew@aol.com: > Gentlemen, > > I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone > think this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am > second-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. > > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and > information, tips and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:27 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts From: "Phillips, Jack" You're putting a Model A in it, aren't you Dan? No reason the prop bolts s hould be any more reliable than the engine. Just kidding - I don't think stress would be an issue since Grade 8 are sup ossed to be 150,000 psi tensile strength and AN6 bolts are 125,000. Howeve r, can you get Grade 8 bolts in a fine thread? I know AN6 bolts are exepns ive at around $9 each, but there is probably not a more critical bolt on th e airplane - particularly with a model A, where you typically only have 4 b olts holding the prop on. I would prefer the fine thread of the AN bolts. Just my 2 =A2, if it is even worth that much. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of HelsperSew@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Gentlemen, I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone thi nk this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am se cond-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. _____ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenge/aol?redi r=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" href="tp://www .walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out Wa lletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:48:30 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts- Hi Jack, I am using a Ken Perkins prop hub with 6 bolts. I was able to get those fine thread 3/8-24 grade 8 bolts from Mcmaster Carr. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:08 AM PST US From: Steve Ruse Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts This newsletter contains an article with good information on prop bolts: http://www.eaa663.org/The%20Grapvine/Issues/2004/EAA%202004-9.pdf Steve Ruse Norman, Ok Quoting HelsperSew@aol.com: > Gentlemen, > > I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone > think this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am > second-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. > > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and > information, tips and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 07:59:32 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Perez Video Thank you Jack. I had hoped the DVD would be done well enough so that I could sell as is with out re-doing most, if not all of it. Thank you for your time and kind words. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:06:59 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts I think when Jack says that Grade 8 bolts are *supposed* to be handle up to 150,000 psi he points out one of the main issues with commercial grade hardware. There is not the same level of quality control in the production of commercial grade hardware as there has to be with AN hardware. In addition AN hardware is produced from a more corrosion resistant alloy, and is heat-treated. Using commercial grade hardware may be fine in non-structural applications if you so choose, but I would consider prop bolts to be "structural" (insofar as being critical to the safe operation o f your Piet). As Steve points out, having the prop depart the aircraft is never a good thing. Even worse would be if only one or two bolts broke loose, and the prop shakes things to the point where it departs with the engine attached t o it. That would ruin one's day.... Ryan On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 9:09 AM, Phillips, Jack < Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wrote: > You're putting a Model A in it, aren't you Dan? No reason the prop bolt s > should be any more reliable than the engine. > > > Just kidding ' I don't think stress would be an issue since Grade 8 are > supossed to be 150,000 psi tensile strength and AN6 bolts are 125,000. > However, can you get Grade 8 bolts in a fine thread? I know AN6 bolts ar e > exepnsive at around $9 each, but there is probably not a more critical bo lt > on the airplane ' particularly with a model A, where you typically only have > 4 bolts holding the prop on. I would prefer the fine thread of the AN > bolts. Just my 2 =A2, if it is even worth that much. > > > Jack Phillips > > NX899JP > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto: > owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of * > HelsperSew@aol.com > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:46 AM > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts > > > Gentlemen, > > > I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone > think this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am > second-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. > > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:11:13 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Perez Video Thank you John. If I may...John sent me a very well written critique of my video, off list. He had some very useful suggestions and format changes tha t I may include in video #2. Sharing knowledge comes in many forms...thanks John for sharing some of yours with me. - I appreciate the support on this guys, it is motivation to continue to make DVDs, and spread the knowledge to those who may find it useful. I know if not for this list and people like yourselves that originally gave me a soli d knowledge foundation to start with, I would not be building at all. - A special salute to Mike Cuy...he lit this candle, it burns bright now. - ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 08:44:11 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Steve, Wow- after reading that article I will not use those industrial bolts. But I checked on the Sensenich web sight and their bolts are way too much- at least $200.00 with shipping. I think I will take my chances with AN bolts. Its hard to find the right ones because the threaded length is so short. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 12:22:40 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group OK, guys, what is the more common, a throttle in the front or not? Gene ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:14 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: and . . . another question I am looking at piano hinges for the ailerons. I am assuming that everyone is using the loop type rather than the extruded type. The longest length I can find is 6 ft though, and it looks like the aileron needs a 7 ft hinge. What is everyone doing?? Gene ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:29:36 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: another question for group From: "Phillips, Jack" I put a throttle in the front of mine, along with dual controls (except brakes and carb heat). I also have basic flight instruments (compass, airspeed, and altimeter) in the front. If I had known it was going to come in as heavy as it did, I would probably have skipped the instruments, but it does make it nice for passengers. I also find that on long cross countries, without reading glasses on, the instruments in the front cockpit are easier for me to see than the ones in the back. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group OK, guys, what is the more common, a throttle in the front or not? Gene _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:42 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: new photos From: "Phillips, Jack" Looking good, Gene. That is going to be one pretty Pietenpol. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 5:01 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: new photos Guys: I finally got my airplane up on the gear and outside for the first time today. Attached are a couple of photos (if they work) to show the current state. I ran out of the right sized screws for the elevator hinges or they would be attached as well. I would have made a little more progress before photographing, but yesterday the firewall got away from me and now I have five stitches across the back of my knee/calf. I AM going to make Brodhead next year . . . with or without Mikey's help!! Gene _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:05 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: and . . . another question From: "Jack T. Textor" Gene, Six feet is enough. If I were to do again I would buy hinges that were 3" wide when open. The largest I could get from Aircraft Spruce or Wicks was 2". McMaster has 3". With the angle of the aileron spar, and 2" hinges, your bolt holes on the aileron side are pretty close to the bottom edge of the hinge. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 12:55:54 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piano hinges Gene, I accumulated a pile of hinges (at great wasted expense) before I got one I liked. I went with the extruded type, aluminum. I got a "special quote" from Mcmaster Carr, because 6 ft. was the longest length listed in their catalog for that type. They got back to me and I bought two of them 7ft. long. I see in their catalog that now the standard lengths for some types they offer are 8 ft. I love paging through their catalog. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:24:39 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group I don't have one in the front but then again I don't carry passengers. ----- Original Message ---- From: Gene Rambo Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group OK, guys, what is the more common, a throttle in the front or not? Gene ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:24:05 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: > Wow- after reading that article I will not use those industrial bolts. > (etc.) Good article, and kind of scary. I can't help wondering, though, what the sainted Mr. P. used to keep prop and hub together. Bet his bolts didn't come from Sensenich. Probably weren't AN, either, all things considered. Owen ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 02:38:40 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group Aw man, You're missing out on some big gargantuan, in the front seat. He's having a good time, but you have to ask him to scoot to the side so you can see out the front , so you can land. That's me flying,,,worts and all. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: H RULE To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group I don't have one in the front but then again I don't carry passengers. ----- Original Message ---- From: Gene Rambo To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:22:15 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group OK, guys, what is the more common, a throttle in the front or not? Gene ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 02:47:29 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts My take is,,Grade 8 bolts are hard. But AN bolts are tough. I was enlightened to the fact that a long AN bolt can actually be bent and twisted into a pretzel shaped knot, without heating, without breaking.,,,amazing. My amazing Mentor, which I refer to all the time,,,whitnessed a crash of a Mooney. He said the thing ground looped, and the tail came around to meet the nose, but the engine mount bolts (I believe were AN6's {3/8"} ) never broke,,,,Never broke!!! Don't reinvent the wheel. walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 9:45 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Gentlemen, I bought some grade 8 bolts to hold my prop onto my engine. Does anyone think this is a bad idea? I have heard differing views on this and now I am second-guessing myself. Please weigh-in. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenge/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall000000 01" href="tp://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 03:19:37 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Piano hinges OK, the McMaster Carr is a great source, I had not thought of them, but I also love their catalog. Sooooo, now the question becomes what type and thickness are most of you using?? I am thinking the .050 thick aluminum hinge with the 1/8" pin and 3" width (based on the advice about the mounting holes. Does this sound like what others have done?? Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 3:55 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Piano hinges Gene, I accumulated a pile of hinges (at great wasted expense) before I got one I liked. I went with the extruded type, aluminum. I got a "special quote" from Mcmaster Carr, because 6 ft. was the longest length listed in their catalog for that type. They got back to me and I bought two of them 7ft. long. I see in their catalog that now the standard lengths for some types they offer are 8 ft. I love paging through their catalog. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall000000 01" hrr=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 03:35:58 PM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts One would think that the bolts of today would be far superior than the bolts Pietenpol used 80 years ago, but unfortunately that is not the case, Corporate greed and a throw-away society has resulted in quality and craftmans ship to be thrown out the window. Charley --- On Wed, 9/24/08, Owen Davies wrote: > From: Owen Davies > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Wednesday, September 24, 2008, 7:23 AM > > > HelsperSew@aol.com wrote: > > Wow- after reading that article I will not use those > industrial bolts. > > (etc.) > Good article, and kind of scary. I can't help > wondering, though, what > the sainted Mr. P. used to keep prop and hub together. Bet > his bolts > didn't come from Sensenich. Probably weren't AN, > either, all things > considered. > > Owen > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 04:36:09 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Dan. I may be able to help out. I misordered prop bolts (3/8 AN 6) several times (wrong length) plus changed props (needed new length) and have kept them just in case. If your interested send me the length you need and I'll check the next time I go to the hanger. Gene in Tennessee ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Steve, Wow- after reading that article I will not use those industrial bolts. But I checked on the Sensenich web sight and their bolts are way too much- at least $200.00 with shipping. I think I will take my chances with AN bolts. Its hard to find the right ones because the threaded length is so short. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall000000 01" hrr=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 9/23/2008 7:38 AM ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:07:56 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Dan I forgot to mention that if I have the right length for you, their yours for the postage. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene & Tammy To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Dan. I may be able to help out. I misordered prop bolts (3/8 AN 6) several times (wrong length) plus changed props (needed new length) and have kept them just in case. If your interested send me the length you need and I'll check the next time I go to the hanger. Gene in Tennessee ----- Original Message ----- From: HelsperSew@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2008 10:41 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts Steve, Wow- after reading that article I will not use those industrial bolts. But I checked on the Sensenich web sight and their bolts are way too much- at least $200.00 with shipping. I think I will take my chances with AN bolts. Its hard to find the right ones because the threaded length is so short. Thanks. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall000000 01" hrr=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- 9/23/2008 7:38 AM ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 9/23/2008 7:38 AM ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:52:39 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Grade 8 bolts From: "skellytown flyer" I think it's a bad idea. I have been around a lot of good quality grade 8's. and from what experience I have had. they are extremely strong.but extremely brittle.I have welded them at the head to such things as electric motor brackets to keep them from turning and they would almost immediately break beside the weld. i know that is a different use but just to show how they react. also seen them installed as shear bolts in the drive shaft of a brush hog. once again the broke right quick where grade 5 were elastic enough they might go for days. neither a good reason to know for sure whether they will hold up on a prop,but I think for my money I would much rather run grade 5 than grade 8 unless the load was specifically in tension. not in shear.Raymond Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 5843#205843 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:03 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Piano hinges From: "Jack T. Textor" Gene, I'm not for certain, but my 2" hinges from Wicks are .051. McMaster's 3" hinges are .60, which would be fine. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:55:13 PM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Grade 8 bolts In reference to skellytown flyer ":... I think for my money I would much rather run grade 5 than grade 8 unless the load was specifically in tension. not in shear.Raymond" and Owen Davies: "Good article, and kind of scary. I can't help wondering, though, what the sainted Mr. P. used to keep prop and hub together. Bet his bolts didn't come from Sensenich. Probably weren't AN, either, all things considered." ---------------------------- An excerpt from Chapter 1 of the 1932 Flying & Glider Manual, where the Air Camper plans were introduced: "In building your plane, don't be penny wise and pound foolish. You save very little by substituting inferior lumber for regular airplane spruce, for example, and your plane won't be nearly so sturdy when built of inferior stuff. It is best to buy your material from a reliable airplane lumber and supply house. It may be possible to pick up bargains now and then around your local airport, and if the bargain is a real one, take advantage of it - but be sure of what you are getting." I highly doubt that if you asked those editors from 1932 if the same line of thinking applies to the hardware you build with, they would say "naw, go ahead and use whatever is down at Farm and Fleet. It's not that important". Pietenpol used what was available to him at the various times he built his aircraft. From non-aircraft grade hardware (we assume), to oatmeal container cardboard for his leading edge (supposedly), and bedsheets on the tail feathers (allegedly). He designed a very good aircraft and built them how he chose too, and got by with it. Steve Wittman was an even more prolific aircraft designer and racer. He built numerous airplanes, flying them both for pleasure/utility and air racing, and got by with it. Until, that is, he failed to properly apply the fabric to his aircraft, and he and his wife were killed. Skimp whereever you choose, but be prepared to be bitten in the hind end. The collective 105 years of aviation experience that is out there has taught us that there are acceptable, safe ways to do things to mitigate the risk in our hobby. Building with properly graded acceptable wood is one; building with aircraft grade hardware is another (unless some circumstance gives you absolutely no alternative but to use other appropriate hardware). Find your cost savings somewhere else, please. Ryan ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 06:57:37 PM PST US From: "Skip Gadd" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group I took the front throttle out of Felix the GN-1. Still left the hard rod from the aft throttle to front of the front pit where it changes to flex cable. If I was in the front pit and needed to change the throttle I could just grab the rod and move it, at the same time it would be hard for a passenger to screw up the throttle setting. That is what caused the demise of the Poplar Piet. Skip ----- Original Message ----- From: Gene Rambo Sent: 9/23/2008 3:25:57 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: another question for group OK, guys, what is the more common, a throttle in the front or not? 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