---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 09/26/08: 35 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:15 AM - Re: Steve Whittman, accident (Owen Davies) 2. 04:36 AM - Re: Steve Whittman, accident (charles loomis) 3. 05:02 AM - Re: Steve Whittman, accident (charles loomis) 4. 05:10 AM - Steve Whittman (HelsperSew@aol.com) 5. 06:55 AM - Re: Steve Whittman (TOM STINEMETZE) 6. 07:09 AM - Pietenpol list (TGSTONE236@aol.com) 7. 08:07 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (Rob Hart) 8. 08:41 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (Gary Boothe) 9. 08:43 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (Ryan Mueller) 10. 08:59 AM - Steerable Tailwheel (Gary Boothe) 11. 09:08 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP) 12. 09:11 AM - Landing gear (outofthebox50@yahoo.com) 13. 09:19 AM - Re: Steerable Tailwheel (TOM STINEMETZE) 14. 09:29 AM - Re: Steerable Tailwheel (Ryan Mueller) 15. 09:50 AM - Re: Landing gear (Bill Church) 16. 09:53 AM - Was Steve Whittman (bike.mike@comcast.net) 17. 10:07 AM - Re: Landing gear (Ryan Mueller) 18. 10:35 AM - Radial engines/types/price (Michael Perez) 19. 10:48 AM - Re: Landing gear (outofthebox50@yahoo.com) 20. 11:32 AM - Re: Landing gear (Ryan Mueller) 21. 11:53 AM - Re: Steerable Tailwheel (shad bell) 22. 12:03 PM - Re: Steerable Tailwheel (Rob Stapleton, Jr.) 23. 12:03 PM - Airborn pee breaks (shad bell) 24. 12:05 PM - Re: Steerable Tailwheel (Don Emch) 25. 12:37 PM - Re: Landing gear (Bill Church) 26. 12:46 PM - Re: Pietenpol list (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 27. 12:59 PM - Re: Landing gear (Bill Church) 28. 01:13 PM - Re: Landing gear (outofthebox50@yahoo.com) 29. 01:19 PM - Re: Pietenpol list (H RULE) 30. 01:46 PM - Re: Pietenpol list (Jonathan Ragle) 31. 01:46 PM - Re: Pietenpol list (Jonathan Ragle) 32. 02:16 PM - Flighttime Radio tomorrow (Brian Kraut) 33. 02:40 PM - Re: Re: Steerable Tailwheel (Gary Boothe) 34. 04:25 PM - Re: Pietenpol list (walt) 35. 10:42 PM - Re: Re: Steerable Tailwheel (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:15:38 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident Ryan Mueller wrote: > I had a third cousin, twice removed, that used to work with this guy... Oh, for God's sake. I remember the name as Mac McCullough, which I've probably misspelled. It could be McCarthy, but I think Mac McCarthy was a guy who built strip canoes, with whom I also had some contact at roughly that time. Anyone who knows Tailwinds well enough is likely to remember the guy. He lived two or three doors down from Wittman at Spruce Creek and had lots of Tailwind time in his own machine and in Wittman's birds. He figured prominently in one or two stories in Sport Aviation or Kitplanes 15 years or so ago. Sorry my scholarship doesn't meet your expectations. On the other hand, if you can remember this sort of detail after so long, maybe it's time you got a life. Owen ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:36:31 AM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident So one of the greatest Aviators in world History, who had just won his last air race a few years prior, had to pee, and leaned out his door too far and fell out, and his wife who was an acomplished pilot for over 40 years, suddenly forgot how to fly and the aircraft crashed within one mile of wittmans body. WOW! that really needs to go into the history books. Sorry, I know your just letting us know what someone else told you so I don't blame you in any way, but try to open your car door at 100 mph. Imagine what it would be like at 180. At 170 on my bike if you lift your head and turn side ways you can't turn your head back straight without ducking under the fairing, scary stuff. --- On Fri, 9/26/08, shad bell wrote: > From: shad bell > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 7:28 AM > I am told Steve had a bladder "problem" and he had > to go more often than usual. The accident airplane was > designed specifically for Steve to fly non stop from > Floridia to Oshkosh, and fast. I guess he used to carry a > pee bottle with him, especcially on long flights. Well the > only way he could pee was to loosen his belt, scoot to the > edge of the seat and pee. Well, I am told Steve's > body was found over a mile from the crash site. He fell > out of the airplane! That is the theory I guess, and he > took off the horiz stab on his way out (180mph+). Sounds > crazy and tragic I know, but to me it makes more sense than > to say Whittman covered his airplane wrong. I don't > know him from Adam but he built how many airplanes? All > fast and similar construction. May not be the case, but > him and his wife are the only one's who will ever know > for sure. > > Shad ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:02:30 AM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident Come to think about it, if I could be 91 and fall out of an airplane I built, great. What I mean is, in July 98 my dad had septicemia and was in a coma for 3 months and rehab for 3 months in October 99 my mum passed away, in May 2000 my dad had a stroke, in Aug 2000 my dads best friend in the world died. On Sept 15th or one of the very first days airlines were operating after the 11th attacks in 2000, My dad, in a wheel chair, barely able to speak, had his first flight on an Airliner from Kansas to California, someone asked him, "Aren't you scared?" He looked them square in the eye and as good as he could muster responded, "Of What!" If I could win an air race at 88 and still be flying at 91, nothing else would really matter. Do not archive --- On Fri, 9/26/08, charles loomis wrote: > From: charles loomis > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 9:35 PM > > > So one of the greatest Aviators in world History, who had > just won his last air race a few years prior, had to pee, > and leaned out his door too far and fell out, and his wife > who was an acomplished pilot for over 40 years, suddenly > forgot how to fly and the aircraft crashed within one mile > of wittmans body. WOW! that really needs to go into the > history books. Sorry, I know your just letting us know what > someone else told you so I don't blame you in any way, > but try to open your car door at 100 mph. Imagine what it > would be like at 180. At 170 on my bike if you lift your > head and turn side ways you can't turn your head back > straight without ducking under the fairing, scary stuff. > > > --- On Fri, 9/26/08, shad bell > wrote: > > > From: shad bell > > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman, accident > > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > Date: Friday, September 26, 2008, 7:28 AM > > I am told Steve had a bladder "problem" and > he had > > to go more often than usual. The accident airplane > was > > designed specifically for Steve to fly non stop from > > Floridia to Oshkosh, and fast. I guess he used to > carry a > > pee bottle with him, especcially on long flights. > Well the > > only way he could pee was to loosen his belt, scoot to > the > > edge of the seat and pee. Well, I am told > Steve's > > body was found over a mile from the crash site. He > fell > > out of the airplane! That is the theory I guess, and > he > > took off the horiz stab on his way out (180mph+). > Sounds > > crazy and tragic I know, but to me it makes more sense > than > > to say Whittman covered his airplane wrong. I > don't > > know him from Adam but he built how many airplanes? > All > > fast and similar construction. May not be the case, > but > > him and his wife are the only one's who will ever > know > > for sure. > > > > Shad > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:43 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman Could you imagine what that would look like, some guy wizzing out a cracked-open airplane door at 180 mph? How do you spell "atomization". Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. do not archive **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:55:59 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman > Could you imagine what that would look like, some guy wizzing out a cracked-open airplane door at 180 mph? How do you spell "atomization". < My No. 2 son had an "incident" with trying to accomplish that task in a Long EZ which he probably hopes I won't tell - but - what the heck. He likes to fly from Mojave, CA to McPherson, KS non-stop so he doesn't have to waste fuel descending and then climbing back up. So, he built a p-tube into the airplane with a tube that exits down near the left wheel fairing. Well, on one trip in December, heading back to Mojave, at about Albuquerqu e the urge comes upon him. Remember - narrow cockpit with almost no room to move - side stick controls - any movement of the feet also moves the rudders. So, pants unzipped, porta-john in place - one hand on the porta-john and the other on the side stick AND the p-tube freezes up. The airplane is at altitude to clear the mountains and there is no option of descending into warmer air for about 100+ miles with no real guarantee that it will ever get warm enough to thaw out the tube. Picture trying to land with an aromatic open pint container in one hand (which has had to hold it there in one spot for an hour or so), descending through bumpy air, and the distinct prospect of having to open the canopy and dump it out once you're on the ground before you can pull your pants back on. Now, wouldn't you consider making a normal pit-stop the next time? Nope! He's talking about installing a tube heater. Tom Stinemetze do not archive ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:09:15 AM PST US From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:07:02 AM PST US From: Rob Hart Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Seconded. Matt Dralle=2C may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to list etiquette: Please separate the following items: include practical details on construction=2C flying=2C maintenance and regi stration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and regulat ory details differ substantially=2C it is useful that the predominantly US based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other=2C no l ess competent but rather less vocal=2C nationalities to hear of development s in the US) private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based) fly-ins: t o a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis of histo ry or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing) Hypothetical musings=3B items which appear to the authors to be humourous =2C and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply no pra ctical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft=3B to be post ed to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list". Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum in respon se to a question to be directed to the responding individual only=3B I poin t to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts=2C their availability f rom AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a case in point .. These suggestions might save bandwidth=2C enhance user appreciation and red uce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic. Archive Rob Hart Proud supporter of Bernard's vision Builder=2C VH-PTN Perth=2C Western Australia From: TGSTONE236@aol.comDate: Fri=2C 26 Sep 2008 10:08:48 -0400Subject: Pie tenpol-List: Pietenpol listTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information=2C tips and calculators. _________________________________________________________________ Are you a friend magnet? Play now to win prizes for you and your friends! gnet.com.au ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:41:46 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Gentlemen, please..in a free society there has to be latitude for normal behavior and conversation. Though I understand your frustration at seeing 10 emails, all off topic, and I especially appreciate the input from our brothers 'down under,' I suspect that the reason there have been so many unusual posts is that, for whatever reason, there just aren't many building questions this week. Individuals who frequent this list have found good information, camaraderie and motivation; all essential to the project. If someone has a building question, please speak up..the natives are getting restless. The last thing we need, in my humble opinion, are more rules. The 'DELETE' button works great. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (11 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rob Hart Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 8:06 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Seconded. Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to list etiquette: * Please separate the following items: * include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance and registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the predominantly US based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other, no less competent but rather less vocal, nationalities to hear of developments in the US) * private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based) fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis of history or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing) * Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply no practical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft; to be posted to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list". * Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum in response to a question to be directed to the responding individual only; I point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts, their availability from AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a case in point. * These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user appreciation and reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic. * Archive Rob Hart Proud supporter of Bernard's vision Builder, VH-PTN Perth, Western Australia _____ From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive _____ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check p://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001> out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _____ Play now to win prizes for you and your friend//www.friendmagnet.com.au' target='_new'>Are you a friend magnet? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:43:49 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list I'm sure Mr. Dralle would get right on that, as soon as he starts getting paid commensurate to the amount of time it would take to do such filtering. The Piet list is much better than other lists when it comes to off-topic banter, especially for a forum that does not have a pro-active moderator (Matronics/Matt provides the mailing lists, but doesn't appear to really get involved too much otherwise). The ratio of banter to good information is not too bad. What listers need to remember is how to use the "do not archive" tag. If you post something that doesn't have any reason to go in the archive, add "do not archive" to the end of your message. Very simple. We all still get the message, it just won't take up space in the archives. Also, when you reply to a message on the list, take two seconds to scroll through and remove the absolutely pointless text. This would mainly include advertising added by free email services, the bold text Matronics paragraphs, etc. Those serve no purpose other than to make your message longer and more difficult to read. Insofar as wanting useful information....ask a question! If you ask a question and someone has useful information to contribute, you will usually get a reply with said useful information. Also make sure to search the archive (if you do not already). Many, many questions have been asked and answered over the years, and there are good odds are you may be able to find what you are looking for there. Either way, it just so happens that the only thing floating around at the moment is what you consider to be BS (you are probably right). However, the BS is not preventing more useful posts from being made; nobody is posting anything else! I would invite you to get the ball rolling and fire off a question, Ted. Have a good day, Ryan On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:06 AM, Rob Hart wrote: > Seconded. > > Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to > list etiquette: > > - Please separate the following items: > - include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance and > registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and > regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the predominantly > US based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other, no > less competent but rather less vocal, nationalities to hear of developments > in the US) > - private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based) > fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis > of history or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing) > - Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be > humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply > no practical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft; to be > posted to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list". > - Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum > in response to a question to be directed to the responding individual only; > I point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts, their > availability from AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a > case in point. > > > - These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user appreciation and > reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic. > - Archive > > > Rob Hart > Proud supporter of Bernard's vision > Builder, VH-PTN > Perth, Western Australia > > > ------------------------------ > > From: TGSTONE236@aol.com > Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:08:48 -0400 > Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > > > Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? > Enough is enough > I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. > > Ted Stone > > > do not archive > > * > * > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:59:12 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel OK, I'll start. My tailwheel is almost finished and I decided to add the steering horn, rather than rely on brakes for steering. I understand, and have seen many photos of, attaching the tailwheel horn to a rudder horn with springs, but I wish to attach mine to the rudder pedals. What options can you offer, assuming that there are two choices: Run a separate cable all the way to the rudder pedal; or somehow link up with the rudder cable? Thank you, Gary A. Boothe CALPLY / L&W Sales Manager Architectural Products Division gboothe@calply.com Cell: (510) 760-0805 E-fax:(510) 880-5945 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:08:24 AM PST US From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Dear Ted Stone & Rob Hart: - Relax!!!!!! I happen to enjoy some of the banter and find it amusing! Remem ber, when we as a society forget how to laugh and enjoy, we loose sight of living to share memories. This group of builders are fantastic and everyone has a unique take on many issues both aircraft related and non-aircraft re lated. I can remember many laughable moments from these Pieter's and it mad e my day!! Humor is good!...never killed anyone...-Pieter's.... I say rel ax that stiffness and-hang on?...... - Do not archive. - - Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - =0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:11:34 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com SSBncmVhdGx5IGVuam95IHRoZSBiYW50ZXIsIGJ1dCBJJ2xsIGFzayBhIHJlYWwgcXVlc3Rpb24u ICANCg0KV2UgYXJlIGFib3V0IHRvIG9yZGVyIG1ldGFsIGZvciBsYW5kaW5nIGdlYXIuICBEb2Vz IGFueW9uZSBoYXZlIGFueSBwbGFucyBmb3IgY3ViIHN0eWxlIGdlYXI/ICBJIGhhdmUgYW4gaWRl YSB3aGF0IEkgd2FudCBpdCB0byBsb29rIGxpa2UsIEkgYW0gY29uY2VybmVkIGFib3V0IHR1Ymlu ZyBzaXplLiAgDQoNClRoYW5rcywgSmVyZW15IGluIERhbGxhcw0KU2VudCB2aWEgQmxhY2tCZXJy eSBmcm9tIFQtTW9iaWxlDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiAiR2Fy eSBCb290aGUiIDxnYm9vdGhlNUBjb21jYXN0Lm5ldD4NCg0KRGF0ZTogRnJpLCAyNiBTZXAgMjAw OCAwODo0MDo1NiANClRvOiA8cGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6 IFJFOiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogUGlldGVucG9sIGxpc3QNCg0KDQpUaGlzIGlzIGEgbXVsdGkt cGFydCBtZXNzYWdlIGluIE1JTUUgZm9ybWF0Lg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:19:40 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel < What options can you offer, assuming that there are two choices: Run a separate cable all the way to the rudder pedal; or somehow link up with the rudder cable?> There are quite a few responses to this question from about 2-weeks ago when I asked the same question. Believe it or not, just last night I finished running new cables all the way back from the rudder bar to the tail wheel to connect to the shimmy damper springs that I purchased from Aircraft Spruce. The only hard part of the project was the need to install an additional pair of pulleys behind the pilot seat to redirect the new cables down to the tailwheel assembly. There will be a couple of new fairleads also at the point where the cables exit the fuselage. On the whole, these cable assemblies probably weigh more than a simple connection to the rudder but the weight is further forward. Also, the rudder is completely separated from the shock loads imposed by the tail wheel. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:29:10 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel Gary, On Bill Rewey's Piet, I believe he uses brass (pretty sure they are brass) split bolt connectors to clamp his tailwheel steering cables onto his rudde r cables, just forward of the base of the seat bottom in the rear cockpit. An example of a split bolt connector: http://www.meetindustries.net/full-images/591109.jpg An example of where they are clamped: http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Bill%20Rewey/DSCF0024.JPG I know it's a very poor pic, but it's the only thing I can find online. We are out of town for a wedding so I don't have my Brodhead pics available. I f you look in the area beneath where the headset cable crosses the front of the seat cushion you can just barely make out the connector. At least it gives a bit of an idea of where they are attached. Anyhow, Bill's Piet has been flying for years with no reported problem with that arrangement (that I know of). It's simple, and prevents you from havin g another cable passing through the "foot holes". The location of the clamp allows you to easily inspect the cables for wear or deterioration due to that arrangement. You don't have to worry about beefing up the lower portio n of the rudder to handle any additional stress from using it to steer the tailwheel. Finally, you avoid adding the weight of the beefer rudder structure and rudder-to-tailwheel steering horn. Inconsequential, I am sure , but when it comes to adding weight that far to the rear I would imagine every little bit helps. If you want more info on how to do that it is available from Bill for $2, o r as part of his entire info pack. I don't believe I am infringing on his ability to sell that info. What I have shown or described is no more than what you can see by walking up and looking into his rear cockpit. If you bu y his info sheet it has drawings, and more information. Hope that helps, have a good one. Ryan On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:57 AM, Gary Boothe wrote: > OK, I'll start=85 > > > My tailwheel is almost finished and I decided to add the steering horn, > rather than rely on brakes for steering. I understand, and have seen many > photos of, attaching the tailwheel horn to a rudder horn with springs, bu t I > wish to attach mine to the rudder pedals. > > > What options can you offer, assuming that there are two choices: Run a > separate cable all the way to the rudder pedal; or somehow link up with t he > rudder cable? > > > Thank you, > Gary A. Boothe > CALPLY / L&W Sales Manager > Architectural Products Division > gboothe@calply.com > > Cell: (510) 760-0805 > > E-fax:(510) 880-5945 > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:50:31 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear Sorry to interrupt the banter with a real answer, and actually, it's more of a follow-up question rather than an answer, and maybe it could also be classified as "banter", but here goes: By "cub-style" gear, do you mean the split axle gear as shown on drawing No. 3 of the improved Air Camper plans (clip attached). If so, then yes, most builders have the plans. They are readily available from the Pietenpol family. You write that you have an idea what you want it to look like, I would guess that what you want it to look like would be, oh, I don't know... maybe something like ... cub gear? Maybe I'm missing something here. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of outofthebox50@yahoo.com Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:13 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear I greatly enjoy the banter, but I'll ask a real question. We are about to order metal for landing gear. Does anyone have any plans for cub style gear? I have an idea what I want it to look like, I am concerned about tubing size. Thanks, Jeremy in Dallas ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:53:45 AM PST US From: bike.mike@comcast.net Subject: Was Pietenpol-List: Steve Whittman ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 10:07:59 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear Jeremy, Could you define "Cub style" a bit more? If you are building a Pietenpol Air Camper (versus a GN-1), and want to use actual Cub landing gear (or replicate that dimensionally) you would have a problem bolting them on. The gear attach points on a Cub gear do not mate up with the gear fittings on a Piet. If you want "Cub style" versus the wood gear, the 1933 Piet plans that you would purchase from the Pietenpol family include the plan sheet for a welded steel tube landing gear that is more along those lines. There are differences of course; coil springs versus bungees, different geometry, etc. Or are you looking to replicate the exact function and geometry of Cub gear, down to the bungees, but build it to bolt directly on to a Piet? Ryan On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:12 AM, wrote: > I greatly enjoy the banter, but I'll ask a real question. > > We are about to order metal for landing gear. Does anyone have any plans > for cub style gear? I have an idea what I want it to look like, I am > concerned about tubing size. > > Thanks, Jeremy in Dallas > > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:35:09 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Radial engines/types/price Looking at all my engine options, what does the Piet. people know about rad ials for our planes? How about types available and prices? - Thank you. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com Sorry about that. I like the looks of the the triangle under the floor to attach my struts to versus the long spring strut to the front gear mounting point. I have springs already, so I don't plan to use shock chord. Our plane is a Sky Scout. I have the plans and builder's guide from the Peit family, but it doesn't have any additional gear plans in it. I want to build them to plans minus the the spring struts. The ones in the plans are heavy and I just like the other look better. The gear on Chuck Gantzer's plane are the look I'm going for. Jeremy in Dallas Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 11:32:38 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear Jeremy, As far as plans for that, I don't know. That is the gear that Bernard used himself on his later aircraft, such as N7533U and the Last Original (take a look on WestCoastPiet for pics). When you say you like the look of Chuck G's gear, do you also mean the streamlined tubing look? I could be wrong, but I don't think he used streamlined tubing to build his gear. If you go to WestCoastPiet and look at pics of his airplane you can see what I would surmise are earlier shots of his Piet with landing gear made from normal round tubing. I would imagine that he later used wood strips fore and aft to fair in the gear legs, and then wrapped those pieces with fabric, thereby achieving the streamlined look. Or at least that is one way you could do it without having to change tubing size from plans (if and when you find those plans :P). Time to get ready for the hoopla this evening. Have a good rest of the day everyone! Ryan On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:49 PM, wrote: > > Sorry about that. I like the looks of the the triangle under the floor to > attach my struts to versus the long spring strut to the front gear mounting > point. I have springs already, so I don't plan to use shock chord. Our > plane is a Sky Scout. I have the plans and builder's guide from the Peit > family, but it doesn't have any additional gear plans in it. I want to > build them to plans minus the the spring struts. The ones in the plans are > heavy and I just like the other look better. The gear on Chuck Gantzer's > plane are the look I'm going for. > > Jeremy in Dallas > Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile > ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:53:10 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel Gary, one way to attatch it is nicopress the t/w cables to the rudder cable s behind the seat.- If you have already made your rudder cables you will have to remake them in order to get the oval sleeves on to the cables.-We also added some fairleads inside and outside the fuselage to guide the cab les.-We did not use a turnbuckle on the t/w cables, just adjust the lengt h, tension with the small chain links on the t/w springs.- We did this af ter covering, and flying for about 2 years, a pain in the ass!, but definit ly (spelling?) worth it.- Ground handling on pavement is much eaiser, and safer.- Have fun. Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:04 PM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel Do you have any photos of this procedure I am right in the middle of installing tailwheel, rudders cable etc. and this would be helpful to me too. Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of shad bell Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:53 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Steerable Tailwheel Gary, one way to attatch it is nicopress the t/w cables to the rudder cables behind the seat. If you have already made your rudder cables you will have to remake them in order to get the oval sleeves on to the cables. We also added some fairleads inside and outside the fuselage to guide the cables. We did not use a turnbuckle on the t/w cables, just adjust the length, tension with the small chain links on the t/w springs. We did this after covering, and flying for about 2 years, a pain in the ass!, but definitly (spelling?) worth it. Ground handling on pavement is much eaiser, and safer. Have fun. Shad ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 12:03:04 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Pietenpol-List: Airborn pee breaks I remember about 8-9 years ago flying a Cessna Caravan from S Carolina to O hio and trying to get rid of pee in a 2 liter bottle out the rear door (top half clam shell door)-at 10,000 ft and 160kts, with the auto pilot on, a nd I learned that the pee will blow all over you when you try to dump it ov erboard,- So i instinctivly just tossed the bottle half full out the door into the wild blue younder, over rual west virgina.- I hope it didn't wa ke anyone.- Kids, I guess we learn the hard way. - Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:28 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable Tailwheel From: "Don Emch" I'm using Bill Rewy's idea. I connected the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder cables under the rear seat using brass #10 split wire connectors, just like those in the pictures in the previous post. They work really well and I've had no problems at all. They can be easily loosened and slid slightly forward or aft if needed for adjustment. I've only done that once. There are other ways but these are definitely very simple and they don't cause stress on the rudder. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6355#206355 ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 12:37:37 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear OOOOOhhh, you're talking about the Sky Scout landing gear... That's different ... Never mind. But seriously, I guess your plans would show the landing gear similar to the gear shown in the attached photo (Sky Scout.jpg). That is definitely different from the Air camper plans. I kind of like the looks of the Sky Scout gear, but you are building your plane, so you get to do what you want. Anyway, I believe Chuck Gantzer's landing gear was originally built to the Improved Air Camper plans (with bungees), and he later modified them to accommodate the compression springs (see second attached photo). Here's a link to Chuck's webpage - go to the bottom of the page for the landing gear. Looks like it would be pretty straightforward to figure out - all you need to do is replace the cross tubes (with the bungees) with the spring mechanism. There are details of the spring arrangement here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring .jpg&PhotoID 09 And, from the 1933 plans, the sizes of the tubes for the "Improved" landing gear are 1 3/8" diameter x 14ga 1020 steel tube for the main vees, and 3/4" diameter x 18ga 1020 steel tube for the cross tubes. Does that help? Bill C. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:46:22 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Ted, I guess you have not yet realized that many of us have made friends on the list and use it primarily as an information share but also a way to share a laugh, a topic or social banter with a friend. A friend meaning all that come to the board. Many of us are less than that serous all the time. I would hope you would or could consider this is a gathering place for builders and friends to share information, technique,technical knowledge an occasional laugh yet most importantly a passion for our Piets. John Smile son, we don't want to disconcert the masses! In a message dated 9/26/2008 10:10:33 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, TGSTONE236@aol.com writes: Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive ____________________________________ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? _Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators_ .walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:59:22 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear Oops. Forgot the link to Chuck's webpage. Here it is: http://nx770cg.com/Fuselage.html BC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Bill Church Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear OOOOOhhh, you're talking about the Sky Scout landing gear... That's different ... Never mind. But seriously, I guess your plans would show the landing gear similar to the gear shown in the attached photo (Sky Scout.jpg). That is definitely different from the Air camper plans. I kind of like the looks of the Sky Scout gear, but you are building your plane, so you get to do what you want. Anyway, I believe Chuck Gantzer's landing gear was originally built to the Improved Air Camper plans (with bungees), and he later modified them to accommodate the compression springs (see second attached photo). Here's a link to Chuck's webpage - go to the bottom of the page for the landing gear. Looks like it would be pretty straightforward to figure out - all you need to do is replace the cross tubes (with the bungees) with the spring mechanism. There are details of the spring arrangement here: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/photoDisplay.cfm?PhotoName=lndg_gear_spring .jpg&PhotoID 09 And, from the 1933 plans, the sizes of the tubes for the "Improved" landing gear are 1 3/8" diameter x 14ga 1020 steel tube for the main vees, and 3/4" diameter x 18ga 1020 steel tube for the cross tubes. Does that help? Bill C. <<...>> <<...>> ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 01:13:15 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear From: outofthebox50@yahoo.com That's what I'm looking for. I just didn't want to go too far over or under on the tube sizes and sacrifice weight or strength. Thanks Bill, Do not archive. Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Landing gear This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:19:27 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Relax!If I was anymore relaxed I'd fall asleep.I need viagra just to stay a wake!=0A-=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ---- =0AFrom: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" =0ATo: pietenpol-l ist@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:07:33 PM=0ASubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list=0A=0A=0ADear Ted Stone & Rob Hart:=0A =0ARelax!!!!!! I happen to enjoy some of the banter and find it amusing! Re member, when we as a society forget how to laugh and enjoy, we loose sight of living to share memories. This group of builders are fantastic and every one has a unique take on many issues both aircraft related and non-aircraft related. I can remember many laughable moments from these Pieter's and it made my day!! Humor is good!...never killed anyone...-Pieter's.... I say relax that stiffness and-hang on?......=0A=0ADo not archive.=0A=0A=0AKenn =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:54 PM PST US From: Jonathan Ragle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list HAHAHAHA I for one have not been here long enough to have much of a say in board pol itics=2C but I read all posts from the Piet board=2C the Sonex board and th e Aerobatic board technical or not. I dig it. One question - if you respond to a message that already has "do n ot archive" in it does it automatically keep it out of the archive because it is in the body of the message? Jonathan do not archive Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol listTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Relax!If I was anymore relaxed I'd fall asleep.I need viagra just to stay a wake! do not archive ----- Original Message ----From: "KMHeide=2C BA=2C CPO=2C FAAOP" To: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSent: Friday=2C September 26=2C 2008 12:07:33 PMSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Dear Ted Stone & Rob Hart: Relax!!!!!! I happen to enjoy some of the banter and find it amusing! Remem ber=2C when we as a society forget how to laugh and enjoy=2C we loose sight of living to share memories. This group of builders are fantastic and ever yone has a unique take on many issues both aircraft related and non-aircraf t related. I can remember many laughable moments from these Pieter's and it made my day!! Humor is good!...never killed anyone... Pieter's.... I say r elax that stiffness and hang on?...... Do not archive. Kenneth M. Heide=2C BA=2C CPO=2C FAAOP 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn =9310 hidden secrets=94 from Jamie .. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 01:46:55 PM PST US From: Jonathan Ragle Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list HAHAHAHA I for one have not been here long enough to have much of a say in board pol itics=2C but I read all posts from the Piet board=2C the Sonex board and th e Aerobatic board technical or not. I dig it. One question - if you respond to a message that already has "do n ot archive" in it does it automatically keep it out of the archive because it is in the body of the message? Jonathan do not archive Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol listTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Relax!If I was anymore relaxed I'd fall asleep.I need viagra just to stay a wake! do not archive ----- Original Message ----From: "KMHeide=2C BA=2C CPO=2C FAAOP" To: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSent: Friday=2C September 26=2C 2008 12:07:33 PMSubject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Dear Ted Stone & Rob Hart: Relax!!!!!! I happen to enjoy some of the banter and find it amusing! Remem ber=2C when we as a society forget how to laugh and enjoy=2C we loose sight of living to share memories. This group of builders are fantastic and ever yone has a unique take on many issues both aircraft related and non-aircraf t related. I can remember many laughable moments from these Pieter's and it made my day!! Humor is good!...never killed anyone... Pieter's.... I say r elax that stiffness and hang on?...... Do not archive. Kenneth M. Heide=2C BA=2C CPO=2C FAAOP 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together=97at home=2C work=2C or on the go. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 02:16:22 PM PST US From: "Brian Kraut" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Flighttime Radio tomorrow We are having Joe Norris on the show tomorrow morning at 10:07 AM eastern time at www.flighttimeradio.com. Joe is the new homebuilt community manager for EAA. He was the top tech support guy there for a log time and is probably the most knowledegeable people I know with experimental and certified aircraft. It would be great if some of you wanted to call into the show and ask Joe some technical questions. The number is 904-854-1320. ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:40:57 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable Tailwheel Tom, Ryan, Shad, Don, Thanks for the feedback. I like the idea of using the nicopress sleeves as I haven't made my cables yet. Now can we get back to the peeing-in-the-cup stories? I have one too....the punch line is that my dad got an award from the local EAA (about 35 years ago), called the H.E.R.E (Human Element Range Extender) award, for "clear thinking under pressure." It consisted of an old boot, painted silver, glued to a nice board. You fill in the story... Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (11 ribs down.) Do not archive -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable Tailwheel I'm using Bill Rewy's idea. I connected the tailwheel steering cables to the rudder cables under the rear seat using brass #10 split wire connectors, just like those in the pictures in the previous post. They work really well and I've had no problems at all. They can be easily loosened and slid slightly forward or aft if needed for adjustment. I've only done that once. There are other ways but these are definitely very simple and they don't cause stress on the rudder. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6355#206355 ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:25:20 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Ted, Yeah, sometimes things get crazy. The one biggest thing that people have to add is do not archive anywhere in the text so Matt won't be bombarded with high storage in the archives,,,as you have done walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: TGSTONE236@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:08 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 10:42:04 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Steerable Tailwheel We do not stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing. Never Be The First To Get Old!!!!! It's good to see some of us are not getting old. I thought that's what Pietenpoling was all about, not getting old! Just to keep things in the proper fashion, I am going to run my tailwheel cables straight to the bar. It might be a little difficult to attach them to the rudder cables anywhere else as they go straight from the bar to the horns. On the horns of a dilema as it were. :-) Won't get that done for a while though, got too many flutes to make! Clif > > Now can we get back to the peeing-in-the-cup stories? I have one too> > Gary Boothe ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.