Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:10 AM - Re: 30 year old Weldwood Plastic Resin (ureaformaldehyde) glue still stronger than spruce (TOM STINEMETZE)
2. 06:19 AM - Re: Paper cutter arrived! (Michael Perez)
3. 06:22 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (Gene & Tammy)
4. 09:07 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
5. 11:32 AM - Cabane Brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
6. 12:03 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
7. 12:34 PM - Cabane Brackets (Oscar Zuniga)
8. 12:57 PM - Re: Paper cutter arrived! (shad bell)
9. 01:11 PM - Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
10. 01:26 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (Gary Boothe)
11. 01:26 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
12. 01:36 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
13. 01:55 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (Gene & Tammy)
14. 03:39 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
15. 03:39 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
16. 04:42 PM - Wheel hubs (carson)
17. 07:15 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (johnwoods@westnet.com.au)
18. 07:38 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (Bill Church)
19. 07:40 PM - Re: Wheel hubs (Bill Church)
20. 09:56 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: 30 year old Weldwood Plastic Resin (ureaformaldehyde) |
glue still stronger than spruce
<As a side note, I now need a very small quantity of 1/4" spruce plywood
and a few feet of 1"x1" spruce stock. Where would be a good place to find
such a small quantity? Should I just try to find some from a local
builder?>
Steve:
Norman, OK is not that far from Halstead, KS. Try Wiebe Aircraft at
316-835-2417. They work on wood airplanes all the time and have a pretty
good stock of spruce and ply that they are willing to sell at very
reasonable prices. The quality is extremely good and they will mill to
size if necessary.
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
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Subject: | Re: Paper cutter arrived! |
Very cool, Ryan. I think you will find that making gussets this way will pr
ove quite easy.
-
-
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol list |
You guys sound like you work for the FAA. Sure, let's make more rules.
Piet builders and pilots should know better than take time for a smile &
laugh. Let's all get serious. This is suppose to be work, not play!
Gene in Tennessee (just got back from a 2 thousand mile rode trip to
Texas to drag another plane home and the new owner and I laughed all the
way)
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Hart
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list
Seconded.
Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide
to list etiquette:
a.. Please separate the following items:
a.. include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance
and registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative
and regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the
predominantly US based contributors to this forum be heard by the
multitude of other, no less competent but rather less vocal,
nationalities to hear of developments in the US)
b.. private details regarding flight plans to local (US
state-based) fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be
interested on the basis of history or locality (perhaps a
"Pietenpol-US-list" listing)
c.. Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be
humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which
supply no practical details to those constructing or flying their
aircraft; to be posted to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list".
d.. Direct responses to direct input from members of the public
forum in response to a question to be directed to the responding
individual only; I point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8
bolts, their availability from AS&S and the fact that they had already
been shipped as a case in point.
a.. These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user
appreciation and reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary
email traffic.
b.. Archive
Rob Hart
Proud supporter of Bernard's vision
Builder, VH-PTN
Perth, Western Australia
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
From: TGSTONE236@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:08:48 -0400
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list?
Enough is enough
I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was
about.
Ted Stone
do not archive
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Checked by AVG.
9/26/2008 7:35 AM
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Subject: | Re: Pietenpol list |
The Red board offers all those rules and more. What it doesn't offer is a
free form of discussion topics, nor does it address building a Piet. But if
you're into the strict adherence of rules and censorship of topics then the Red
board is certainly the place that satisfy's those needs. All of which are
the reasons I don't frequent the Red boards but I do keep up my membership for
the legislative issues that may be addressed in the magazine somewhere
between the advertisements and articles about airplanes and equipment I cannot
afford nor have a particular interest in. If youre interested in where the Red
Boards are I can provide that information also, but off line I would not want
my comments to inflame its members or its lawyers.
Just my opinion on more rules, less laughs, fewer friends and no community,
what's not to like?
John
In a message dated 9/29/2008 9:23:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
zharvey@bellsouth.net writes:
You guys sound like you work for the FAA. Sure, let's make more rules.
Piet builders and pilots should know better than take time for a smile & laugh.
Let's all get serious. This is suppose to be work, not play!
Gene in Tennessee (just got back from a 2 thousand mile rode trip to Texas
to drag another plane home and the new owner and I laughed all the way)
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: _Rob Hart_ (mailto:robhart67@hotmail.com)
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:06 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list
Seconded.
Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to
list etiquette:
* Please separate the following items:
* include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance and
registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and
regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the predominantly US
based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other, no less
competent but rather less vocal, nationalities to hear of developments in the
US)
* private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based)
fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis of
history or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing)
* Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be
humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply no
practical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft; to be posted
to
a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list".
* Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum in
response to a question to be directed to the responding individual only; I
point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts, their availability
from AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a case in point.
* These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user appreciation and
reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic.
* Archive
Rob Hart
Proud supporter of Bernard's vision
Builder, VH-PTN
Perth, Western Australia
____________________________________
From: TGSTONE236@aol.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list
Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list?
Enough is enough
I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about.
Ted Stone
do not archive
____________________________________
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ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
____________________________________
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target='_new'>Are you a friend magnet?
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____________________________________
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Fellow Pieter's:
-
I made my brackets that attach to the fuse where the cabane's will bolt int
o. I drilled my holes and bolted the two halves together with the long brac
ket to the inside as the plans show. Question: the holes for the attachment
are 3/16" as called for in the plans. Is this enough strength for this bra
cket? Is anyone using a sleeve in the hole for the bolt to slide through? I
t would seem any movement within the hole it would allow for up/down moveme
nt of the cabane's making-for a problem down the road...Am I describing t
his correctly so everyone understands. The brackets that hold the cabane's
to the fuse.....
-
What is everyone doing here for attachment?
-
-
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
-
=0A=0A=0A
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Subject: | Re: Cabane Brackets |
Ken,
Follow the plans exactly.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
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challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
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Message 7
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Ken; I'm not sure if you're talking about the bolts that attach the cabanes to
the brackets or the bolts that attach the brackets to the fuselage. If I'm reading
it right, you mean the bolts that attach the cabanes to the brackets. On
41CC, they are AN3 and plenty strong for that. However, the cabanes on my airplane
have tube bushings welded in where the bolts pass through since the streamline
tubing is narrower than the space between the brackets and the tube bushings
are needed to hold everything in place. I guess you could do the same
thing with spacers or washers but that's how it's done on 41CC.
You can sort of see how mine are in this picture where the brace bolts to the fittings: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P6230007.JPG
Oscar Zuniga getting ready for Kerrville, TX fly-in on Oct. 11 at Schreiner Field!!!
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Paper cutter arrived! |
I'll bet that paper cutter would cut thin aluminum just as well, .020 or le
ss, I just cant think of any .020 al pieces on a piet, except maybe wing ro
ot farrings.- Never mind just thinking out loud.
Shad=0A=0A=0A
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Oscar and others.........
-
Sorry If I was not very clear...
-
I am talking about the two-bolts that pass thru the inside and outside st
eel brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse. Did anyone sleeve
the holes through the wood to prevent longation or movement? Make sense yet
?....
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
-
=0A=0A=0A
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Ken,
I'm no structural engineer, but I do stay at Holiday Inns.
The brackets rely on compression to keep them from moving. Use the
appropriate torque values for those bolts and you will be good.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage
(11 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA,
CPO, FAAOP
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:12 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
Oscar and others.........
Sorry If I was not very clear...
I am talking about the two bolts that pass thru the inside and outside steel
brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse. Did anyone sleeve the
holes through the wood to prevent longation or movement? Make sense yet?....
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
Message 11
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Subject: | Re: Cabane brackets |
Ken,
I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Cabane brackets |
Ken,
Another thing to think about is if you sleeve it, you will be removing
material (wood) thus removing strength.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and
calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Cabane Brackets |
Oscar. This weekend I ended up down your way to pick up a plane with a
friend and your fellow Texans at the Uvalde airport out did themselves with
hospitality. We were very impressed and appreciative.
Gene in Tennessee
Do Not Archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Cabane brackets |
It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru the wood t
o hold much.
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
-
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
Ken,
-
I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight.
-
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redi
r=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" hrr=http://www
.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out Wa
lletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.
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Subject: | Re: Cabane brackets |
It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru the wood t
o hold much.
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
-
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
Ken,
-
I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight.
-
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redi
r=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" hrr=http://www
.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out Wa
lletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators.
=0A=0A=0A
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Hi All
Does anyone have drawings of the hubs for the wire wheels that I may get a copy
of?Or are they in the plans somewhere that I have missed?
Thanks in advance
Carson
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6837#206837
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Ken,
If you are willing to deviate from the norm and follow some practices
used in other parts of the world then you might want to look at using
bushings made from a product called Tufnol Carp. Some of us here in
Australia are using this product to provide a harder bearing surface
where the bolts penetrate the longerons and spars. An idea used by
the British and required by their LAA (formerly PFA).
The source we found is in the UK at the following link.
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Fantastic-Plastic_TUFNOL-SRBF_Carp-Rod_W0QQco
lZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ10910818QQftidZ2QQtZkm
we used 8mm rod for the logerons and 12mm for the spars.
Drill and ream to suit the bolt.
For what it's worth.
JohnW
---- Original Message ----
From: kmheidecpo@yahoo.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
>Oscar and others.........
>
>Sorry If I was not very clear...
>
>I am talking about the twobolts that pass thru the inside and
>outside steel brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse.
>Did anyone sleeve the holes through the wood to prevent longation or
>movement? Make sense yet?....
>
>
>Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
>
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Cabane Brackets |
Ken,
I'm just going to go from memory here, but, unless my memory is completely shot,
each cabane strut, under normal loading, only carries about 50 pounds of load.
Those bolts holding the cabanes will be nowhere near their limits. The smaller
holes drilled in the wood, the better.
I'd just go with the plans on this one. Don't recall anyone having problems with
this area.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6848#206848
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Carson,
It isn't a drawing, but it is an article that describes how to make them:
http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=56
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6850#206850
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Subject: | Re: Cabane brackets |
Appearance is deceiving. The engineering isn't.
A bolt's shear strength is approximately 60% of
it's tensile strength.
The AN bolts we use have a tensile strength of
125,000 lb per square inch. A 3/16" AN-3 bolt
cross section is 0.0277 sq inches. so each
shear point is capable of supporting 3468 lb.
There are two brackets per cabane. Not any
chance of the bolts shearing
The wood shear strength is a little different at
this juncture as one bolt is in end shear and the
other is "shear across the grain".
Across the grain. in the longeron, the "tensile
perpendicular to the grain" is 360 lb per square inch.
The chart doesn't give an actual shear number
unfortunately.
Parallel to the grain, in the upright cross member
it's 1120 lb per sq inch.
Also you are going through two layers of 1/8"
hardwood ply.
There are at least a couple of Piets with wood
cabanes and mine does too. Consider the
strength of that cabane joint with one bolt through
it. A bolt in this configuration will pull a plug of
wood out equal to the width of the bolt. This means
we have two "faces" where shear is working.
If the bolt is 1" away from the end and the wood is
1" wide then we have two 1" sqare faces, each
with a strength of 1120 lb or 2240 lb in total.
So how much force is each cabane going to see?
Consider a Piet with four cabanes and a max
load of 1200 lb. Now we have to consider how
much of the total load is seen by the cabanes.
Remember, the struts take most of the load as
they are just outboard of the halfway point on
each panel. Also the upward force distribution is
parabolic, the closer you get to the tip the less
the wing supports. We have an unequal seesaw
with some upward load on the cabanes and most
on the outer struts.
The area between the strut connection and the
cabane sees about 65% of the wing load. So
there's a difference of 20%. That's what the
cabanes support. On our example that's 20% of
1200 lb or 240 lb distributed among four cabanes.
If they all supported equally then each supports
60 lb. They don't.The front takes more but that
can't be more than 70 lb.
Multiply that estimated 70 lb by your choice of
G factor, say 4G, and that strut sees 280 lb.
Even if we were to factor in "bounce off the seat"
gust loads that single bolt isn't going to see loads
anywhere near 2240 lb.
Just for the sake of my own irrational fears I've
made that joint with three bolts 1" away from
each other. :-)
So applying the above to the fuselage bolts it
becomes evident, just by eyeball, that any fears
of failure are ungrounded.
If that isn't enough to convince then consider the
venerable and long lived DC-3, with a pair of 1/2"
bolts in the landing gear knee.
Of course all I've done is support the fact that
damn near every Piet ever flown was built with
those two bolts in the fuselage. Right? :-)
Clif
"The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions."
(Leonardo da Vinci)
----- Original Message -----
From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru
the wood to hold much.
Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP
--- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
wrote:
From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 3:26 PM
Ken,
I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued
tight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial
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3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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9/28/2008 1:30 PM
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