Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Mon 09/29/08


Total Messages Posted: 20



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 06:10 AM - Re: 30 year old Weldwood Plastic Resin 	(ureaformaldehyde) glue still stronger than spruce (TOM STINEMETZE)
     2. 06:19 AM - Re: Paper cutter arrived! (Michael Perez)
     3. 06:22 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (Gene & Tammy)
     4. 09:07 AM - Re: Pietenpol list (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
     5. 11:32 AM - Cabane Brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
     6. 12:03 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
     7. 12:34 PM - Cabane Brackets (Oscar Zuniga)
     8. 12:57 PM - Re: Paper cutter arrived! (shad bell)
     9. 01:11 PM - Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
    10. 01:26 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (Gary Boothe)
    11. 01:26 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    12. 01:36 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    13. 01:55 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (Gene & Tammy)
    14. 03:39 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
    15. 03:39 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP)
    16. 04:42 PM - Wheel hubs (carson)
    17. 07:15 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (johnwoods@westnet.com.au)
    18. 07:38 PM - Re: Cabane Brackets (Bill Church)
    19. 07:40 PM - Re: Wheel hubs (Bill Church)
    20. 09:56 PM - Re: Cabane brackets (Clif Dawson)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 06:10:45 AM PST US
    From: "TOM STINEMETZE" <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
    Subject: Re: 30 year old Weldwood Plastic Resin (ureaformaldehyde)
    glue still stronger than spruce <As a side note, I now need a very small quantity of 1/4" spruce plywood and a few feet of 1"x1" spruce stock. Where would be a good place to find such a small quantity? Should I just try to find some from a local builder?> Steve: Norman, OK is not that far from Halstead, KS. Try Wiebe Aircraft at 316-835-2417. They work on wood airplanes all the time and have a pretty good stock of spruce and ply that they are willing to sell at very reasonable prices. The quality is extremely good and they will mill to size if necessary. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS.


    Message 2


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    Time: 06:19:14 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Re: Paper cutter arrived!
    Very cool, Ryan. I think you will find that making gussets this way will pr ove quite easy. - -


    Message 3


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    Time: 06:22:13 AM PST US
    From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Pietenpol list
    You guys sound like you work for the FAA. Sure, let's make more rules. Piet builders and pilots should know better than take time for a smile & laugh. Let's all get serious. This is suppose to be work, not play! Gene in Tennessee (just got back from a 2 thousand mile rode trip to Texas to drag another plane home and the new owner and I laughed all the way) Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Hart To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Seconded. Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to list etiquette: a.. Please separate the following items: a.. include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance and registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the predominantly US based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other, no less competent but rather less vocal, nationalities to hear of developments in the US) b.. private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based) fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis of history or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing) c.. Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply no practical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft; to be posted to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list". d.. Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum in response to a question to be directed to the responding individual only; I point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts, their availability from AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a case in point. a.. These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user appreciation and reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic. b.. Archive Rob Hart Proud supporter of Bernard's vision Builder, VH-PTN Perth, Western Australia ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:08:48 -0400 Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Play now to win prizes for you and your friend//www.friendmagnet.com.au' target='_new'>Are you a friend magnet? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG. 9/26/2008 7:35 AM


    Message 4


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    Time: 09:07:38 AM PST US
    From: AMsafetyC@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Pietenpol list
    The Red board offers all those rules and more. What it doesn't offer is a free form of discussion topics, nor does it address building a Piet. But if you're into the strict adherence of rules and censorship of topics then the Red board is certainly the place that satisfy's those needs. All of which are the reasons I don't frequent the Red boards but I do keep up my membership for the legislative issues that may be addressed in the magazine somewhere between the advertisements and articles about airplanes and equipment I cannot afford nor have a particular interest in. If youre interested in where the Red Boards are I can provide that information also, but off line I would not want my comments to inflame its members or its lawyers. Just my opinion on more rules, less laughs, fewer friends and no community, what's not to like? John In a message dated 9/29/2008 9:23:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, zharvey@bellsouth.net writes: You guys sound like you work for the FAA. Sure, let's make more rules. Piet builders and pilots should know better than take time for a smile & laugh. Let's all get serious. This is suppose to be work, not play! Gene in Tennessee (just got back from a 2 thousand mile rode trip to Texas to drag another plane home and the new owner and I laughed all the way) Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: _Rob Hart_ (mailto:robhart67@hotmail.com) Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 10:06 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Seconded. Matt Dralle, may I suggest the following as an addition to your guide to list etiquette: * Please separate the following items: * include practical details on construction, flying, maintenance and registration: to the public forum (even though national legislative and regulatory details differ substantially, it is useful that the predominantly US based contributors to this forum be heard by the multitude of other, no less competent but rather less vocal, nationalities to hear of developments in the US) * private details regarding flight plans to local (US state-based) fly-ins: to a subset of direct recipients who may be interested on the basis of history or locality (perhaps a "Pietenpol-US-list" listing) * Hypothetical musings; items which appear to the authors to be humourous, and which they assume to be humourous to others but which supply no practical details to those constructing or flying their aircraft; to be posted to a "Pietenpol-pilot's-bar-list". * Direct responses to direct input from members of the public forum in response to a question to be directed to the responding individual only; I point to recent email exchanges regarding Grade 8 bolts, their availability from AS&S and the fact that they had already been shipped as a case in point. * These suggestions might save bandwidth, enhance user appreciation and reduce global impact through reduction of unnecessary email traffic. * Archive Rob Hart Proud supporter of Bernard's vision Builder, VH-PTN Perth, Western Australia ____________________________________ From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol list Can we verify that this is a Pietenpol list and not a BS section list? Enough is enough I just want useful information. That is what I thought this list was about. Ted Stone do not archive ____________________________________ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. st" target=_blank>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ttp://forums.matronics.com =_blank>http://www.matronics.com/contribution ____________________________________ Play now to win prizes for you and your friend//www.friendmagnet.com.au' target='_new'>Are you a friend magnet? href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c ____________________________________ 9/26/2008 7:35 AM (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:32:52 AM PST US
    From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Cabane Brackets
    Fellow Pieter's: - I made my brackets that attach to the fuse where the cabane's will bolt int o. I drilled my holes and bolted the two halves together with the long brac ket to the inside as the plans show. Question: the holes for the attachment are 3/16" as called for in the plans. Is this enough strength for this bra cket? Is anyone using a sleeve in the hole for the bolt to slide through? I t would seem any movement within the hole it would allow for up/down moveme nt of the cabane's making-for a problem down the road...Am I describing t his correctly so everyone understands. The brackets that hold the cabane's to the fuse..... - What is everyone doing here for attachment? - - Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - =0A=0A=0A


    Message 6


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    Time: 12:03:20 PM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Cabane Brackets
    Ken, Follow the plans exactly. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


    Message 7


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    Time: 12:34:01 PM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Cabane Brackets
    Ken; I'm not sure if you're talking about the bolts that attach the cabanes to the brackets or the bolts that attach the brackets to the fuselage. If I'm reading it right, you mean the bolts that attach the cabanes to the brackets. On 41CC, they are AN3 and plenty strong for that. However, the cabanes on my airplane have tube bushings welded in where the bolts pass through since the streamline tubing is narrower than the space between the brackets and the tube bushings are needed to hold everything in place. I guess you could do the same thing with spacers or washers but that's how it's done on 41CC. You can sort of see how mine are in this picture where the brace bolts to the fittings: http://www.flysquirrel.net/piets/P6230007.JPG Oscar Zuniga getting ready for Kerrville, TX fly-in on Oct. 11 at Schreiner Field!!! Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 8


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    Time: 12:57:00 PM PST US
    From: shad bell <aviatorbell@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Paper cutter arrived!
    I'll bet that paper cutter would cut thin aluminum just as well, .020 or le ss, I just cant think of any .020 al pieces on a piet, except maybe wing ro ot farrings.- Never mind just thinking out loud. Shad=0A=0A=0A


    Message 9


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    Time: 01:11:51 PM PST US
    From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Cabane brackets
    Oscar and others......... - Sorry If I was not very clear... - I am talking about the two-bolts that pass thru the inside and outside st eel brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse. Did anyone sleeve the holes through the wood to prevent longation or movement? Make sense yet ?.... Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - =0A=0A=0A


    Message 10


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    Time: 01:26:36 PM PST US
    From: "Gary Boothe" <gboothe5@comcast.net>
    Subject: Cabane brackets
    Ken, I'm no structural engineer, but I do stay at Holiday Inns. The brackets rely on compression to keep them from moving. Use the appropriate torque values for those bolts and you will be good. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (11 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 1:12 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets Oscar and others......... Sorry If I was not very clear... I am talking about the two bolts that pass thru the inside and outside steel brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse. Did anyone sleeve the holes through the wood to prevent longation or movement? Make sense yet?.... Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP


    Message 11


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    Time: 01:26:36 PM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Cabane brackets
    Ken, I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


    Message 12


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    Time: 01:36:49 PM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Cabane brackets
    Ken, Another thing to think about is if you sleeve it, you will be removing material (wood) thus removing strength. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001)


    Message 13


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    Time: 01:55:40 PM PST US
    From: "Gene & Tammy" <zharvey@bellsouth.net>
    Subject: Re: Cabane Brackets
    Oscar. This weekend I ended up down your way to pick up a plane with a friend and your fellow Texans at the Uvalde airport out did themselves with hospitality. We were very impressed and appreciative. Gene in Tennessee Do Not Archive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com>


    Message 14


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    Time: 03:39:03 PM PST US
    From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Cabane brackets
    It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru the wood t o hold much. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - --- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote: From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets Ken, - I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight. - Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redi r=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" hrr=http://www .walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out Wa lletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. =0A=0A=0A


    Message 15


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    Time: 03:39:03 PM PST US
    From: "KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP" <kmheidecpo@yahoo.com>
    Subject: Re: Cabane brackets
    It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru the wood t o hold much. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP - --- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote: From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets Ken, - I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight. - Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redi r=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" hrr=http://www .walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out Wa lletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. =0A=0A=0A


    Message 16


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    Time: 04:42:13 PM PST US
    Subject: Wheel hubs
    From: "carson" <carsonvella@yahoo.com.au>
    Hi All Does anyone have drawings of the hubs for the wire wheels that I may get a copy of?Or are they in the plans somewhere that I have missed? Thanks in advance Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6837#206837


    Message 17


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    Time: 07:15:48 PM PST US
    From: johnwoods@westnet.com.au
    Subject: Cabane brackets
    Ken, If you are willing to deviate from the norm and follow some practices used in other parts of the world then you might want to look at using bushings made from a product called Tufnol Carp. Some of us here in Australia are using this product to provide a harder bearing surface where the bolts penetrate the longerons and spars. An idea used by the British and required by their LAA (formerly PFA). The source we found is in the UK at the following link. http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Fantastic-Plastic_TUFNOL-SRBF_Carp-Rod_W0QQco lZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ10910818QQftidZ2QQtZkm we used 8mm rod for the logerons and 12mm for the spars. Drill and ream to suit the bolt. For what it's worth. JohnW ---- Original Message ---- From: kmheidecpo@yahoo.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets >Oscar and others......... > >Sorry If I was not very clear... > >I am talking about the twobolts that pass thru the inside and >outside steel brackets attached to the wooden upright on the fuse. >Did anyone sleeve the holes through the wood to prevent longation or >movement? Make sense yet?.... > > >Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP > > >


    Message 18


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    Time: 07:38:06 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Cabane Brackets
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Ken, I'm just going to go from memory here, but, unless my memory is completely shot, each cabane strut, under normal loading, only carries about 50 pounds of load. Those bolts holding the cabanes will be nowhere near their limits. The smaller holes drilled in the wood, the better. I'd just go with the plans on this one. Don't recall anyone having problems with this area. Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6848#206848


    Message 19


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    Time: 07:40:51 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Wheel hubs
    From: "Bill Church" <billspiet@sympatico.ca>
    Carson, It isn't a drawing, but it is an article that describes how to make them: http://www.mykitplane.com/Planes/filesList2.cfm?AlbumID=56 Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p 6850#206850


    Message 20


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    Time: 09:56:03 PM PST US
    From: "Clif Dawson" <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca>
    Subject: Re: Cabane brackets
    Appearance is deceiving. The engineering isn't. A bolt's shear strength is approximately 60% of it's tensile strength. The AN bolts we use have a tensile strength of 125,000 lb per square inch. A 3/16" AN-3 bolt cross section is 0.0277 sq inches. so each shear point is capable of supporting 3468 lb. There are two brackets per cabane. Not any chance of the bolts shearing The wood shear strength is a little different at this juncture as one bolt is in end shear and the other is "shear across the grain". Across the grain. in the longeron, the "tensile perpendicular to the grain" is 360 lb per square inch. The chart doesn't give an actual shear number unfortunately. Parallel to the grain, in the upright cross member it's 1120 lb per sq inch. Also you are going through two layers of 1/8" hardwood ply. There are at least a couple of Piets with wood cabanes and mine does too. Consider the strength of that cabane joint with one bolt through it. A bolt in this configuration will pull a plug of wood out equal to the width of the bolt. This means we have two "faces" where shear is working. If the bolt is 1" away from the end and the wood is 1" wide then we have two 1" sqare faces, each with a strength of 1120 lb or 2240 lb in total. So how much force is each cabane going to see? Consider a Piet with four cabanes and a max load of 1200 lb. Now we have to consider how much of the total load is seen by the cabanes. Remember, the struts take most of the load as they are just outboard of the halfway point on each panel. Also the upward force distribution is parabolic, the closer you get to the tip the less the wing supports. We have an unequal seesaw with some upward load on the cabanes and most on the outer struts. The area between the strut connection and the cabane sees about 65% of the wing load. So there's a difference of 20%. That's what the cabanes support. On our example that's 20% of 1200 lb or 240 lb distributed among four cabanes. If they all supported equally then each supports 60 lb. They don't.The front takes more but that can't be more than 70 lb. Multiply that estimated 70 lb by your choice of G factor, say 4G, and that strut sees 280 lb. Even if we were to factor in "bounce off the seat" gust loads that single bolt isn't going to see loads anywhere near 2240 lb. Just for the sake of my own irrational fears I've made that joint with three bolts 1" away from each other. :-) So applying the above to the fuselage bolts it becomes evident, just by eyeball, that any fears of failure are ungrounded. If that isn't enough to convince then consider the venerable and long lived DC-3, with a pair of 1/2" bolts in the landing gear knee. Of course all I've done is support the fact that damn near every Piet ever flown was built with those two bolts in the fuselage. Right? :-) Clif "The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions." (Leonardo da Vinci) ----- Original Message ----- From: KMHeide, BA, CPO, FAAOP To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets It just appears to me that the bolts are not very big going thru the wood to hold much. Kenneth M. Heide, BA, CPO, FAAOP --- On Mon, 9/29/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote: From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Cabane brackets To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Monday, September 29, 2008, 3:26 PM Ken, I can't see those two bolts moving once they are torqued tight. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial cha540686/aol?redir=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall000000 01" hrr=http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001" target="_blank">Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 9/28/2008 1:30 PM




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