Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:12 AM - Struts and supports (Michael Perez)
2. 07:26 AM - Re: Struts and supports (Phillips, Jack)
3. 08:23 AM - Re: Struts and supports (Michael Perez)
4. 08:45 AM - Struts and supports (Oscar Zuniga)
5. 09:00 AM - Re: Struts and supports (Bill Church)
6. 09:43 AM - Aluminum Struts (HelsperSew@aol.com)
7. 10:06 AM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Scott Schreiber)
8. 10:18 AM - Re: Aluminum Struts (HelsperSew@aol.com)
9. 11:10 AM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Michael Perez)
10. 11:10 AM - Re: Struts and supports (Michael Perez)
11. 11:46 AM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Phillips, Jack)
12. 11:48 AM - Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
13. 11:55 AM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Gary Boothe)
14. 12:12 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Isablcorky@aol.com)
15. 12:16 PM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Bill Church)
16. 12:37 PM - Learning to weld (HelsperSew@aol.com)
17. 12:48 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Gary Boothe)
18. 12:51 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
19. 01:02 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
20. 01:04 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Ryan Mueller)
21. 01:09 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
22. 01:11 PM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Ryan Mueller)
23. 01:12 PM - Re: Learning to weld (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
24. 01:19 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Phillips, Jack)
25. 01:29 PM - Re: Learning to weld (TOM STINEMETZE)
26. 02:07 PM - Re: Aluminum Struts (HelsperSew@aol.com)
27. 02:08 PM - Re: Learning to weld (charles loomis)
28. 02:11 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
29. 02:16 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
30. 02:21 PM - Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
31. 02:28 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
32. 02:33 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
33. 02:35 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
34. 02:35 PM - Re: Learning to weld (bike.mike)
35. 02:37 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Bill Church)
36. 02:41 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
37. 02:41 PM - Re: Learning to weld (TOM STINEMETZE)
38. 02:46 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Michael Silvius)
39. 03:07 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Pieti Lowell)
40. 03:27 PM - Re: Struts and supports (Pieti Lowell)
41. 03:35 PM - 80 th at Oshkosh (Pieti Lowell)
42. 03:45 PM - Re: Learning to weld (walt)
43. 03:55 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
44. 04:02 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Ryan Mueller)
45. 04:36 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
46. 04:47 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Ryan Mueller)
47. 04:51 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
48. 04:53 PM - Re: Learning to weld (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
49. 05:02 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
50. 05:23 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
51. 05:23 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Michael Silvius)
52. 05:35 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Ryan Mueller)
53. 06:05 PM - Photos of aluminum strut fittings (HelsperSew@aol.com)
54. 06:22 PM - Piet for sale (Ryan Mueller)
55. 06:26 PM - Re: Prop carving How-To CD coming soon (PatrickW)
56. 07:13 PM - Re: 80 th at Oshkosh (Dick Navratil)
57. 07:38 PM - Re: 80 th at Oshkosh (Pieti Lowell)
58. 07:53 PM - Re: Re: Learning to weld (Clif Dawson)
59. 08:01 PM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Ryan Mueller)
60. 08:06 PM - Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Oscar Zuniga)
61. 08:29 PM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Ryan Mueller)
62. 08:39 PM - Re: Learning to weld (charles loomis)
63. 08:42 PM - Re: Learning to weld (charles loomis)
64. 11:20 PM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the plans a
t the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am curious... why us
e the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them called, tubes for the str
uts and the short runs that go to the engine mounts? Why not just round tub
e? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia. tube, maybe heaver wall, would be ju
st as good? I am basically thinking out loud, but if someone has some good
reasoning behind the streamline use, other then aerodynamics, please...
-
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when should t
hey be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a support issue
...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts would still requir
e the jurys?
-
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum, other s
teels, carbon fiber, wood...
-
Thanks all.
Message 2
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Michael, if you look in the archives under lift struts you will find
many questions answered. As for Jury struts, I ran a stress analysis
many years ago examining the need for them. I don't have a copy of it
at hand now, but it was published in the BPA Newsletter sometime back in
1996. It came to the conclusion that Jury struts are necessary to
prevent buckling of the lift struts under negative G loads. You can get
some pretty substantial negative G loading from moderate turbulence, or
a hard landing. The jury struts should not be placed at the exact
middle of the lift struts to prevent harmonic vibrations.
As for leaving the struts round, there are two reasons not to do that.
One - they're ugly. Two - a Pietenpol doesn't need any help producing
drag - it makes quite enough on its own, without giving it any help, and
a cylinder is one of the highest drag shapes there is (which is why
streamlined struts actually produce less drag than round flying wires).
It is quite feasible to make struts with round tubing, with wooden
streamlined fairings. Some Piets (including the Canadian built one that
won a Lindy award at OSH 2007) have lift struts made entirely of wood.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the
plans at the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am
curious... why use the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them
called, tubes for the struts and the short runs that go to the engine
mounts? Why not just round tube? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia.
tube, maybe heaver wall, would be just as good? I am basically thinking
out loud, but if someone has some good reasoning behind the streamline
use, other then aerodynamics, please...
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when
should they be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a
support issue...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts
would still require the jurys?
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum,
other steels, carbon fiber, wood...
Thanks all.
_________________________________________________
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or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
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rohibited.
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orsk - Portuguese
Message 3
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I w
onder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would be
.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
Michael, if you look in the archives under lift struts you will find many q
uestions answered.- As for Jury struts, I ran a stress analysis many year
s ago examining the need for them.- I don=92t have a copy of it at hand n
ow, but it was published in the BPA Newsletter sometime back in 1996.- It
came to the conclusion that Jury struts are necessary to prevent buckling
of the lift struts under negative G loads.- You can get some pretty subst
antial negative G loading from moderate turbulence, or a hard landing.- T
he jury struts should not be placed at the exact middle of the lift struts
to prevent harmonic vibrations.
-
As for leaving the struts round, there are two reasons not to do that.- O
ne ' they=92re ugly.- Two ' a Pietenpol doesn=92t need any help produ
cing drag ' it makes quite enough on its own, without giving it any help,
and a cylinder is one of the highest drag shapes there is (which is why st
reamlined struts actually produce less drag than round flying wires).- It
is quite feasible to make struts with round tubing, with wooden streamline
d fairings.- Some Piets (including the Canadian built one that won a Lind
y award at OSH 2007) have lift struts made entirely of wood.
-
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
-
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:12 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
-
As I get closer to finishing my ribs, I have been nosing around the plans a
t the rest of the wing and it's associated fittings. I am curious... why us
e the streamlined or tapered, as I have seen them called, tubes for the str
uts and the short runs that go to the engine mounts? Why not just round tub
e? I wonder if a slightly smaller dia. tube, maybe heaver wall, would be ju
st as good? I am basically thinking out loud, but if someone has some good
reasoning behind the streamline use, other then aerodynamics, please...
-
Then there are the small jury struts. Some use, some do not...when should t
hey be used and when can they be omitted? I hear that it is a support issue
...there again, I wonder if the round tube on the struts would still requir
e the jurys?
-
I have also wondered about other materials then the 4130. Aluminum, other s
teels, carbon fiber, wood...
-
Thanks all.
-_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 4
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Michael;
There is another option as well: use round steel tubing (more efficient and affordable) and then slide on molded plastic streamline fairings that the ultralight guys use. Easier to do than making wooden fairings to streamline the round tubing. These used to be available through SkyTek but I don't see them anymore: http://www.ultralightnews.ca/streamlinedfairings/1.html
These plastic streamline fairings were installed on the prototype M-19 "Flying
Squirrel", which uses round 4130 steel wing lift struts. The airplane cruises
at 75-80MPH and picked up about 5 MPH after installing the streamline fairings
on the wing struts only. I'm not saying that it will make that big a difference
on the Piet, but there is a very large drag difference between round tubing
and streamlined. It's on the order of 2 to 3x the drag.
The jury struts, cabane braces, and gear legs on 41CC are simple round tubing but
cabanes and wing struts are streamlined.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Michael,
Yes, some builders use aluminum struts. They are generally much cheaper than
new 4130 streamline tubing. Here is one source:
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
Also check out DJ Vegh's website:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-30-03.htm
Paul Poulin, the builder of the Canadian Piet mentioned by Jack, commented
that he built his wooden lift struts (solid laminated White Ash) and then
weighed them and found them to be slightly lighter than streamlined steel
lift struts from a Piper Tri-Pacer (I think).
I like Jack Phillips' Number One reason not to use round steel tubing as-is.
They ARE ugly.
Using round steel tubing, faired with wood, and wrapped with tape, then
doped was a typical practice used on aircraft of the same vintage as the
Pietenpol (see attached detail from Corben Cabin Ace plans).
There has been quite a bit of discussion about this stuff in the past. If
you've got a bit of time on your hands, check the archives.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I
wonder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would
be.
Message 6
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Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech strut
s
for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane. Advantage is
less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these (which I didn't) you
have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN bolts. I used 7075 alumi
num
rectangular bar stock for the end fittings McMaster Carr Supply # 9055K13
$48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
That is a great option! I have the skytechs and am getting near the
stage of making the ends and I am trying to work though that. Got any
pictures?
----- Original Message -----
From: HelsperSew@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:42 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech
struts for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane.
Advantage is less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these
(which I didn't) you have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN
bolts. I used 7075 aluminum rectangular bar stock for the end fittings
McMaster Carr Supply # 9055K13 $48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Got22b,
I and others would like to address you by name :0) We are very friendly
here. Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these end fittings
with
the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post them tonight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom machi
ned end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is weldi
ng tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts, bolt i
t together, done.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Got22b,
-
I and others would like to address you by name :0)---We are very frie
ndly here.- Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these end fi
ttings with the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post them ton
ight.-
-
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no registra
tion required and great graphics ' check it out!
Message 10
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| Subject: | Struts and supports |
Thanks Bill, this is great stuff! Very helpfull!
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
Michael,
-
Yes, some builders use aluminum struts. They are generally much cheaper tha
n new 4130 streamline tubing. Here is one source:
http://www.sky-tek.com/struts.html
-
Also check out DJ Vegh's website:
http://www.imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-30-03.htm
-
Paul Poulin, the builder of the Canadian Piet mentioned by Jack, commented
that he built his wooden lift struts (solid laminated White Ash) and then w
eighed them and found them to be slightly lighter than streamlined steel li
ft struts from a Piper Tri-Pacer (I think).
-
I like Jack Phillips' Number One reason not to use round steel tubing as-is
. They-ARE ugly.
Using round steel tubing, faired with wood, and wrapped with -tape, then
doped was a typical practice-used on aircraft of the same vintage as the
Pietenpol (see attached detail from Corben Cabin Ace plans).
-
There has been quite a bit of discussion about this stuff in the past. If y
ou've got a bit of time on your hands,-check the archives.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Struts and supports
The streamline tube, I assume most use steel. Any research on aluminum? I w
onder what the weight difference between wood and the steel struts would be
.
Message 11
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You'll become a pretty good welder by the time you finish this airplane.
There's an awful lot of welding to be done on a wooden airplane.
Jack Phillips
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom
machined end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own
is welding tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom
mounts, bolt it together, done.
--- On Mon, 10/27/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Got22b,
I and others would like to address you by name :0) We are very
friendly here. Anyway, yes I have photos on my home computer of these
end fittings with the aluminum struts. I will make myself a note to post
them tonight.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics - check it out!
=http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001>
" target=_blank
rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
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rohibited.
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orsk - Portuguese
Message 12
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| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not archive
Message 13
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| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
Geez, Mike, if that's the case, our prospects aren't good!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
Do not archive
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Cuy, Michael
D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 11:49 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
<Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
.....One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not archive
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
Why Mikeee, a Southern gentleman has neither experienced those conditions
nor even thought such. Have we missed something?
A S G
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
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Message 15
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Michael,
You probably don't want to be welding the aluminum struts anyway. Many
aluminum alloys will lose a significant amount of strength in the area
adjacent to the weld. For instance, with 6061-T6 (the alloy the Sky-Tek
struts are made of), the design stress (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to
14,000 psi within 1 inch of the weld. That is a very significant loss (more
than 40%). The extreme heat of welding changes the molecular structure of
the aluminum, resulting in localized reduced physical strength. The best
approach for structural aluminum parts is to use mechanical fastening,
rather than welding.
But there are lots of other areas on this wooden airplane that will need to
be welded. So you will eventually either need to learn that skill, or find
someone else that has the skill to do it for you.
Steel struts are another story. No issues with loss of strength in the weld
areas with steel.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts
Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom
machined end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is
welding tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts,
bolt it together, done.
Message 16
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| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Michael,
I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the possibility of
learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY parts on this wood a
irplane
that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I wanted somethin
g
welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or that part out to
the welder.......what a nightmare!
Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit as rewarding as any other p
hase
of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without knowi
ng
how/having welding equipment.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
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Message 17
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| Subject: | Learning to weld |
I second that!
Although I had gas welding schooling about 25 years ago, I never had any
real experience. Many here will tell you that there are easier ways to weld
than gas, but getting that set up is cheap! It took awhile to get in the
groove, but now I am enjoying each little welding project more and
more..and, as Dan says, there's a bunch of them! If things keep progressing
this well, I may even do my own engine mount!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
HelsperSew@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 12:37 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
Michael,
I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the possibility of
learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY parts on this wood
airplane that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I wanted
something welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or that
part out to the welder.......what a nightmare!
Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit as rewarding as any other
phase of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without
knowing how/having welding equipment.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics - check
%0ahttp://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001> it out!
Message 18
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| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
You lie Corky, you lie:))
________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
Isablcorky@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:12 PM
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight
Time, Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
Why Mikeee, a Southern gentleman has neither experienced those
conditions nor even thought such. Have we missed something?
A S G
________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
no registration required and great graph1200689022/aol?redir
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001"> check it out!
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
So then is a MIG ok for doing the brackets? I think most recommend the gas
or TIG...I actually have a gas set up, but have only used it as a torch!
Boyce
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Learning to weld is something I am looking forward to doing. For those of u
s
that haven't purchased any equipment yet, can those who have provide any
recommendations as to what to get for gas welding? Of course I hope to tren
d
more towards the economical side, but still have the capability to tackle
the welding for the airplane....
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 2:47 PM, Gary Boothe <gboothe5@comcast.net> wrote:
> I second that!
>
>
> Although I had gas welding schooling about 25 years ago, I never had any
> real experience. Many here will tell you that there are easier ways to we
ld
> than gas, but getting that set up is cheap! It took awhile to get in the
> groove, but now I am enjoying each little welding project more and
> more=85.and, as Dan says, there's a bunch of them! If things keep progres
sing
> this well, I may even do my own engine mount!
>
>
> Gary Boothe
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting women
is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or something similar
to
attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing wingovers
and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her face...ugh those d
amn
adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]"
<Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not archive
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
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Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Dan,
Did you use their large strut in the front/small strut in the rear, or the
large strut for both front and rear?
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 11:42 AM, <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
> Larry Williams has been flying his airplane with the aluminum Skytech
> struts for years now. These are the same ones I put on my airplane.
> Advantage is less weight. If you don't want to attempt welding these (which
> I didn't) you have to insert and attach the end fittings with AN bolts. I
> used 7075 aluminum rectangular bar stock for the end fittings McMaster Carr
> Supply # 9055K13 $48.38 for 3 lineal feet. Worked great.
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
If possible avoid MIG welding, its too easy to get a pretty weld that is
purely cosmetic and is structurally unsound. If you have any experience with
gas, the transition to TIG will be easy and you will do nice strong welds.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 3:05:08 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
RAMPEYBOY@aol.com writes:
So then is a MIG ok for doing the brackets? I think most recommend the
gas or TIG...I actually have a gas set up, but have only used it as a torch
!
Boyce
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
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Message 24
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| Subject: | Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
You mean I could have given Randi a better grin in my RV-4 than I did
with my Pietenpol last July? That shameless Hussy!!!
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
CozyGirrrl@aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting
women is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or
something similar to attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing
wingovers and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her
face...ugh those damn adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
(GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol
admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is
such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite
the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive
the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look
more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen
in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not p; e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS
nbsp; - List Contribution Web Site ;
========================
_____
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
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_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
>Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides,
learning new building skills have been every bit< >as rewarding as any
other phase of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet
without knowing< >how/having welding equipment. <
Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to use?
I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130 type
materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good manual /
training video available?
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Aluminum Struts |
Ryan,
I actually used the small struts on both. This is what Larry Williams used.
I thought the large ones were overkill. When you think about it, the Piet ha
s
redundancy in that regard, with 4 strut attach points vs. 2, when compared
to a cub or champ.
Dan
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
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Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I would suggest learning with a gas welding set for several reasons. One, it is
really a cheap setup, it is the most usefull tool you will ever buy,(welding,
cutting, heating, shaping, etc...) Easy transition to TIG welding. Even if you
tig weld Cro Molly, you will still need a torch setup to normalize the piece.
You do not need to normalize when gas welding due to heat saturation, which
is the only negative side of gas welding, the heat saturation tends to warp, but
a bit of management and this becomes negligable. You don't need an expencive
Henrob set, I welded my first fuse with a full sized Comet 3, now I use a medium
size torch, but there are some really nice micro torches that will save you
from having to wrap the hoses over your shoulders as you weld the 9 tube cluster
upside down.
And don't forget, you can weld cast, stainless, and aluminium with a gas welder
too.
To this day I prefer my gas welder if heat saturation isn't a problem, I feel like
I have more control of penitration, and perosity in the weld is never a problem
like tig welding.
Anyway, just my two cents, as you can tell, I love welding
Charley
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
> From: HelsperSew@aol.com <HelsperSew@aol.com>
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 6:37 AM
> Michael,
>
> I would highly recommend that you open yourself to the
> possibility of
> learning to weld. As others have stated there are MANY
> parts on this wood airplane
> that need welding. I would hate the thought of every time I
> wanted something
> welded that I had to stop what I am doing and run this or
> that part out to
> the welder.......what a nightmare!
>
> Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And
> also besides,
> learning new building skills have been every bit as
> rewarding as any other phase
> of this whole process. I personally would not attempt the
> Piet without knowing
> how/having welding equipment.
>
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All
> of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics check it
> out!
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding and
brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding right?
Boyce
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
Don't worry, The piet is also a Chuck magnet.
Problem for you is the definiation of Chuck is usually a 50ish old married man
who does not have an airplane himself.
Blue Skies
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
> Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then,
> attracting women
> is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or
> something similar to
> attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
> Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing
> wingovers
> and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her
> face...ugh those damn
> adrenalin junkies!
>
> Regards, Chrissi
>
> CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
> www.CozyGirrrl.com
> Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
> Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
> =====
> If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
> we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
> Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
>
> --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-
> RXD0)[ASRC]"
> <
>
>
> What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
> are 75+ years old and tend
> to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
> cute little airplane
> you have there sonny !"
>
> I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
> occasional wandering of ones
> mind from time to time.
>
> One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
> airplane, the hotter the owner's
> wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
> daughter than a date or wife.
> Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
> boating world, car world, and
> otherwise.
>
> Mike C.
>
> do not archive
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
> no registration required and great graphics check it out!
> http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Pietenpol as a chick magnet |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 3:22:38 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com writes:
You mean I could have given Randi a better grin in my RV-4 than I did with
my Pietenpol last July? That shameless Hussy!!!
Oh I think Randi has been bitten badly by the aerobatic bug, she's always
been an adrenalin junkie. I think she needs a ride in a Pitts =)
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
____________________________________
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of CozyGirrrl@
aol.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol as a chick magnet
Oh well, that more or less kills it for Randi and I then, attracting women
is not on the agenda, I guess we need to look at a P-51 or something simila
r
to attract the Tom Cruise types? =)
Randi got spoiled a couple of weeks ago by a ride in an RV doing wingovers
and rolls and now you could not slap that RV grin off her face...ugh those
damn adrenalin junkies!
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/27/2008 1:50:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]"
<Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
What Oscar fails to mention is that most of my lady Pietenpol admirers
are 75+ years old and tend
to be the kind that pinch you on the cheek while saying "that is such a
cute little airplane
you have there sonny !"
I have never gotten physical with any of my passengers, despite the
occasional wandering of ones
mind from time to time.
One thing I have noted is that at Oshkosh, the more expensive the
airplane, the hotter the owner's
wife/girlfriend/date is and the more and more that they look more like a
daughter than a date or wife.
Just stating an observation that I'm sure many of you have seen in the
boating world, car world, and
otherwise.
Mike C.
do not p; e the es y --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS nbsp; -
List Contribution Web Site ; ============
============
____________________________________
Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, no
registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
_________________________________________________
,
proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is
prohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands -
Norsk - Portuguese
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Technically, you've got two pieces of metal to connect.
If you connect them with the same kind of metal, that's welding (some creative
license for alloy difference applies here). It usually requires more heat and
better control of what your doing. You're melting the original edges of the metals
you're connecting, so the joint will be one piece of the same stuff.
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing. Generally the
temperatures aren't high enough to melt the host metals, only the filler.
Oxy-actelene flame temperatures get high enough to weld steel and aluminum. I've
also brazed with my oxy-acetlyene torches.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 5:10 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding and
>brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding right?
>Boyce
Message 32
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead solder)
is the same thing...
So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding rod,
or does it have to be 4130 rod?
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
If you're planning on welding tubing, Aircraft Spruce sells small piles of short
cuts of assorted 4130 tubing. You can practice your notching and clusters.
I've got a set of bottles and a Henrob torch kit. Others prefer a Meco or Smith
torch for light work. Yer basic Victor torches are way too big for aircraft purposes.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: TOM STINEMETZE <TOMS@mcpcity.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 4:27 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>
>>Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also besides, learning
new building skills have been every bit< >as rewarding as any other phase of
this whole process. I personally would not attempt the Piet without knowing<
>how/having welding equipment. <
>
>
>Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to use? I
have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130 type materials.
How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good manual / training video
available?
>
>Tom Stinemetze
>McPherson, KS.
Message 34
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
This has been covered at length in the archies, but it should be
re-sated every now-and-then.
4130, the chrome-moly alloy most used in airplanes, was formulated with
gas welding in mind.
4130 retains its strength without post-welding heat treatment when
welded with gas, allowing the amateur (like most of us on this list) to
achieve very strong and pretty welds with very inexpensive equipment.
Gas welding, using Oxy-Acetylene, is a great choice for the amateur
airplane builder.
Mike Hardaway
Message 35
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| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Boyce,
Here's a very basic answer.
Yes, when people write gas welding, they are referring to welding using an
Oxy-Acetylene torch.
By definition, welding involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being
joined to a temperature slightly above their melting point. The pieces being
joined melt together (sometimes with added filler material) to become one.
Brazing involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being joined to a
temperature less than their melting point. A third element is added (the
brazing rod) which has a melting point lower than the metals being joined.
The brazing rod melts, and becomes adhered to the other parts, forming a
bridge between the two. The pieces being brazed do not melt together.
Brazing is basically like a high strength solder joint.
The general consensus regarding brazing and welding of Pietenpol structures
is that it is okay to braze a Pietenpol fuselage IF you build using 1020
steel tubing (as shown in the plans), but NOT if you use 4130 Chro-moly
tubing. The 4130 tubing will tend to become brittle when brazed. 4130 can be
successfully welded, but the welds need to be normalized (allowed to cool
very slowly, without any drafts) following welding.
Bill C.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home to see what brand of
torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas welders/torches? It
might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to determine what is
the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
Boyce
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
> OK someone please explain to me the difference between gas welding
and brazing? Oxy-Acetylene is gas welding >right?
>Boyce
Boyce:I quote from Wikipedia: Weldingis a fabrication process that joins
materials, usually metals or thermoplastics, by causing coalescence. This
is often done by melting the workpieces and adding a filler material to
form a pool of molten material (the weld puddle) that cools to become a
strong joint, with pressure sometimes used in conjunction with heat, or by
itself, to produce the weld. This is in contrast with soldering and
brazing, which involve melting a lower-melting-point material between the
workpieces to form a bond between them, without melting the workpieces.Hope
that helps.Tom StinemetzeMcPheson, KS.
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Tom:
Take a look at the Meco Midget Torch:
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_midget_torch.php
O got one on ebay a while back and I love it
I also have a Meco Aviator but I like the midget better
http://www.tinmantech.com/html/meco_aviator_jet_adaptor.php
I have heard that the Henrob-Dillon-Cobra are the cat's meow, but have
never used one:
http://www.cut-like-plasma.com/
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: TOM STINEMETZE
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment to
use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light 4130
type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a good
manual / training video available?
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
[It has been my experience that welding with 4130 rod has failed in our competition
robots. (FIRST), by changing to a lower carbon rod there wasn't any failures.
Pieti Lowell
, .
> [b]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210632#210632
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| Subject: | Re: Struts and supports |
[ The late Hosey Challis, builder of 8 Pietenpols,built his last Piet with round
4130 struts and faired them with balsa wood, fabric and dope. I flew this Pietenpol
for 12 years, sold it to a fellow in England, it's now in a show room.
By the way I could do spins, snaps loops slow-rolls etc. all with confident and
a bit slow.
Pieti Lowell
.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210637#210637
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| Subject: | 80 th at Oshkosh |
Just got info from Doc Moser, with the news about 80th , looks good , I'm In and
ready to go. Maybe from Brodhead to EAA. My Super B is looking good and running
perfect, not bad for a 20 year since overhauled Ford .
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210642#210642
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
As per my Mentor, (personal AP for Leo Laudenschlauger<sp>) told
me,,,you use mild filler rod to do your welding. Don't use 4130 filler
rod.
He uses mild filler rod do all his repairs.
His most recent was a Piper Vagabond.
I followed his rules,,, and nothing flew off yet
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 5:32 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead
solder) is the same thing...
So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding
rod, or does it have to be 4130 rod?
Message 43
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Well, got home and checked, sure enough I have a Victor! Never fails if you
need two of something I only have one, or if you need red, I have every color
BUT red! Oh well, I'm still building my Mustang II, so it will be a while
before a Piet is in my life anyway....
Boyce
Message 44
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Boyce,
I may not know how to weld, but I have found in my reading thus far that you
should never use coat hangars for your welding rod. There is no way to know
what the alloy of the metal is, and the paint on the coat hangar will
contaminate the weld. Budd Davisson agrees with Walt, saying to use a mild
steel rod with a copper coating (prevents it from rusting whilst being
stored).
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:32 PM, <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com> wrote:
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
>
> If you connect them with a different kind of metal, that's brazing
>
> Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing pipe/lead
> solder) is the same thing...
>
> So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger for welding rod,
> or does it have to be 4130 rod?
>
Message 45
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
You're not completely at a loss. You can still probably use your regulators and
hoses.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 6:54 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>Well, got home and checked, sure enough I have a Victor! Never fails if you
>need two of something I only have one, or if you need red, I have every color
>BUT red! Oh well, I'm still building my Mustang II, so it will be a while
>before a Piet is in my life anyway....
>
>Boyce
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
That's what I was thinking, Jim. Just swap the small tanks with large tanks
and use the same hoses, regulators, torch, etc etc....
do not archive
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> You're not completely at a loss. You can still probably use your regulators
> and hoses.
>
> Jim Ash
Message 47
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet for
resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building. Occasionally,
I
think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a completed Pietenpol, or
maybe an unfinished project to speed the process along. I have three young
children, and I barely get any time to build the Mustang(kit/quick build kit).
I
think when I get it done, I may be done with "projects"!
Boyce
Message 48
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it is
longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
Boyce
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| Subject: | Learning to weld |
Here we go again.
Gas welded 4130 tubing joints don't need to be normalized. The torch weld spreads
enough heat to the adjacent tubing that the thermal gradient is ok without
it. TIG welds are a different story; the gas blanket allows the weld area to get
amazingly hot, but the gas blanket cools the surrounding area too much, causing
thermal stresses right next to the welds. This is where they tend to break
if they're not normalized.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 5:37 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>Boyce,
>
>Here's a very basic answer.
>
>Yes, when people write gas welding, they are referring to welding using an
>Oxy-Acetylene torch.
>
>By definition, welding involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being
>joined to a temperature slightly above their melting point. The pieces being
>joined melt together (sometimes with added filler material) to become one.
>
>Brazing involves heating the two (or more) metal parts being joined to a
>temperature less than their melting point. A third element is added (the
>brazing rod) which has a melting point lower than the metals being joined.
>The brazing rod melts, and becomes adhered to the other parts, forming a
>bridge between the two. The pieces being brazed do not melt together.
>Brazing is basically like a high strength solder joint.
>
>The general consensus regarding brazing and welding of Pietenpol structures
>is that it is okay to braze a Pietenpol fuselage IF you build using 1020
>steel tubing (as shown in the plans), but NOT if you use 4130 Chro-moly
>tubing. The 4130 tubing will tend to become brittle when brazed. 4130 can be
>successfully welded, but the welds need to be normalized (allowed to cool
>very slowly, without any drafts) following welding.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
Message 50
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I guess I don't understand either. I've got a set of adapters that I can use for
the smaller acetylene bottles, but other than that, you're correct. I can burn
through my small bottles in half a day of cutting, but it's tough to buy a
set of larger bottles around here, and my leasing days are done. The swap for
my little bottles is conveniently close and painless.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 7:51 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it is
>longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
>
>Boyce
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
see ebay Item number: 330280942484
steel tube GN1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pietenpol-GN-1-Aircamper-Aircraft-Quick-Bu
ild-Kit_W0QQitemZ330280942484QQihZ014QQcategoryZ63679QQssPageNameZWDVWQQr
dZ1QQcmdZViewItem
not mine just passing it on
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet
for resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building.
Occasionally, I think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a
completed Pietenpol, or maybe an unfinished project to speed the process
along.
Message 52
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
That's what I was referring to, yes.
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 6:51 PM, <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com> wrote:
> I don't understand. What does tank size have to do with it? Just means it
> is longer between trips to the welding supply store right?
>
> Boyce
>
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| Subject: | Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Hello Good People!!
Here are the photos I promised of the aluminum strut fittings. Any question
s
please ask.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 54
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Boyce's comment about buying a completed Pietenpol caused me to remember
this. A Craigslist posting of a Piet for sale was posted to the Corvaircraft
list about two weeks ago. You can see the ad here:
http://grandrapids.craigslist.org/for/876001882.html
I called on it a few days after it showed up and spoke with the gentleman
who is selling it, a Mr. Carl Pitcher. His father built the aircraft. The
gentleman selling it is older, and health issues will preclude him from ever
doing anything with the aircraft. He couldn't remember exactly what year it
was completed. According to the FAA the airworthiness cert. was issued in
September of 1984. It was flown 31.5 hours, flying last in 1989, and was
originally powered by an A-65. Apparently his father decided he wanted to
convert it over to an automotive engine, and make some other modifications
he saw on various Piets at Brodhead. The A-65 was sold, and the airplane was
disassembled and uncovered, and has been in dry storage ever since. I
believe that was all the more that was ever done to it. He is asking $3,000
for the airplane.
As you can see in the ad, there is all sorts of other stuff for sale. A-65
engine mount, exhaust, instruments, etc etc. He also mentioned that he has
lots of tools for sale as well. He sent me about a half dozen or more
pictures of the airplane, from when it was together and now that it is
apart. I'll get them scanned in and post a link to them. Might be a good
opportunity to jump start your Piet project.
Ryan
(I don't know if it is still available, but the ad is still up so I'm
assuming so)
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| Subject: | Re: Prop carving How-To CD coming soon |
I'd buy one....
Patrick
--------
Patrick
601XL/Corvair
N63PZ (reserved)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210688#210688
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| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
Thats great news, Lowell. I'll be ready to go too. Do you know if theres a
possibility of landing at Pioneer airport?
The radial Piet is back running great and the new prop preforms lots better.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 5:35 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: 80 th at Oshkosh
> <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
>
> Just got info from Doc Moser, with the news about 80th , looks good , I'm
> In and ready to go. Maybe from Brodhead to EAA. My Super B is looking good
> and running perfect, not bad for a 20 year since overhauled Ford .
> Pieti Lowell
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210642#210642
>
>
>
Message 57
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| Subject: | Re: 80 th at Oshkosh |
At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to snuff.And
steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18.
Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in groups of 5.
With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get those projects
finished and flying
Pieti Lowell
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Most, if not all, of this stuff has been hashed over a number
of times over the years.
One thing is DON"T braze 4130. Sometimes you can get away
with it but I've had it bite me and so have others. 4130 has an
open grain which means that the braze material goes into
that and fills it up. So? Well, when the joint cools down the
steel shrinks more than the brass. I had one nice little joint
sitting there cooling behind my back as I turned to turn off
the valves. Suddenly CRACK! big split in the tube. AC41.13
says not to braze. Now you know why. By the way, if it
helps, you can think of brazing as glueing the metals together,
same as glueing wood with your epoxy.
Another thing. 4130 gets it's high strength from heat treating.
As soon as welding temperatures are reached that goes down
the toilet. The heated area might as well be mild steel. That's
why you see those fancy fish mouth joints in AC 41.13.
Heat normalizing relieves stresses but does not restore any
strength.
I agree with Robot Man. I bought some of that 4130 rod
and now it has the same function as coat hangers. Great for
picture hangers and painting hooks. :-)
Haven't tried it with marshmallows however. :-)
http://www.airbum.com/articles/ArticleZenWelding.html
Clif
"Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty."
- Mark Twain, writer and humorist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pieti Lowell" <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:05 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld
> <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com>
>
> [It has been my experience that welding with 4130 rod has failed in our
> competition robots. (FIRST), by changing to a lower carbon rod there
> wasn't any failures.
> Pieti Lowell
>
>
> , .
>
>
>> [b]
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210632#210632
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
7:53 PM
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| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Thanks for up'ing the photos, Dan. A question arises: are you going to
install shims or spacers between the wing fittings and the strut attach
fitting to prevent fore and aft movement on the bolt, or is that not a
concern?
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:03 PM, <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote:
> Hello Good People!!
>
> Here are the photos I promised of the aluminum strut fittings. Any
> questions please ask.
> Dan Helsper
> Poplar Grove, IL.
>
Message 60
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| Subject: | Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Dan;
I know nothing... I see nothing. However, looking at the pix of the connection
between the aluminum bar stock and the streamline strut, unless I'm mistaken
DJ Vegh used 3 or 4 bolts to make that same load transfer connection whereas you
have two bolts, AN-4? I will look through some of the aluminum tube airframe
plans that I have for different airplanes but I believe most of them show 3
or 4 bolts at this type of connection and the bolts are spaced about half the
distance that you have these located.
Again... I have no calcs, no other information other than I believe I've seen this
type of connection made with more load transfer fasteners and a closer spacing.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 61
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| Subject: | Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings |
Oscar,
I am blind, deaf and dumb on this as well. However, amongst the pics of
Larry Williams' Piet (which Dan mentioned as using the same struts) at
WestCoastPiet, there is one close-up of the strut attach point.
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Larry%20Williams/Air_Venture_2003_trip_107.jpg
You can see there are only two bolts holding the bar stock attach fitting to
the strut. I don't know the size, but the nuts look roughly equivalent to
what Dan is using. The spacing is greater on Dan's, but your guess is as
good as mine as to what difference that would make. Dan stated that Larry's
Piet has been flying for years......DJ's Piet never took to the air while in
his custody. (I mean no disrepect to DJ, it's just a point of fact)
Not arguing your point, just showing what I ran across.
Ryan
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>
> Dan;
>
> I know nothing... I see nothing. However, looking at the pix of the
> connection between the aluminum bar stock and the streamline strut, unless
> I'm mistaken DJ Vegh used 3 or 4 bolts to make that same load transfer
> connection whereas you have two bolts, AN-4? I will look through some of
> the aluminum tube airframe plans that I have for different airplanes but I
> believe most of them show 3 or 4 bolts at this type of connection and the
> bolts are spaced about half the distance that you have these located.
>
> Again... I have no calcs, no other information other than I believe I've
> seen this type of connection made with more load transfer fasteners and a
> closer spacing.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 62
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
never use coat hanger in an aircraft application, thats like using elmers paste
in constructing the fuselage. You don't have to use alloy rod, some do, some
dont, but you definately want to use a proper welding rod, coat hanger has too
many impurities and fizzes like a fuse, thats bad.
Charley
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com> wrote:
> From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:32 AM
> In a message dated 10/27/2008 4:29:59 P.M. Eastern Standard
> Time,
> ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
>
> If you connect them with a different kind of metal,
> that's brazing
>
>
> Sounds like brazing and soldering (as in copper plumbing
> pipe/lead solder)
> is the same thing...
>
> So, if you are welding 4130 plate, do I use a coat hanger
> for welding rod,
> or does it have to be 4130 rod?
Message 63
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
You can weld with a Victor, I built my first fuselage with a Comet 3 , witch is
a full size torch, the smaller ones make it lighter and easier, but it can be
done, just as well with a larger torch.
--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com> wrote:
> From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:40 AM
> uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home
> to see what brand of
> torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas
> welders/torches? It
> might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to
> determine what is
> the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
> Boyce
Message 64
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Maybe I presented this improperly. Victor makes some fine torches, and they're
good for heavier metals or straight welds.
When you're welding, you need to keep the flame at an angle somewhat perpendicular
to the line you're welding. This angle isn't super-critical, but inconsistent
torch handling will yield an inconsistent weld. In a straight line, the size
of the torch (and lines, for that matter) aren't really a problem; in fact,
a heavier setup might actually help some keep their hands from wobbling as much
while they're learning. But when you're welding tubing, besides keeping the
flame on the weld bead, you have to adjust your holding angle pretty radically
as you go around the tubing to keep the flame angle correct with respect to
the weld. The smaller the diameter of the tubing, the more radical this movement
becomes. I don't mean to make it sound impossible or even difficult; it's just
a skill that's alien to a lot of people.
I've had the Henrob torch pretty much since I started welding (although I do use
it with a set of heavy hoses), so I've had the luxury of using it on 4130. One
of its benefits is to be able to more-finely (than my Victor torches) control
the flame I want. I've welded fishmouths, clusters and rosebuds with it. I've
never tried welding 4130 clusters with my Victor torch. I don't know if I'm
agile enough to get it around the corners as fast as needed or do the finess
welds on the odd joints. With a little warm-up (I'm probably rusty right now)
I'd stack my 4130 Henrob welds up against anybody's, and they'd certainly survive
a DAR's inspection.
I suppose you can drive finish nails with an 8lb maul, too, but I choose not to.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: charles loomis <rameses32@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2008 11:42 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>
>You can weld with a Victor, I built my first fuselage with a Comet 3 , witch is
a full size torch, the smaller ones make it lighter and easier, but it can be
done, just as well with a larger torch.
>
>
>--- On Tue, 10/28/08, RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com> wrote:
>
>> From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com <RAMPEYBOY@aol.com>
>> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Tuesday, October 28, 2008, 8:40 AM
>> uh oh....OK now I'm going to the garage when I get home
>> to see what brand of
>> torch I have! I think it was a Lincoln. Do they make gas
>> welders/torches? It
>> might be Victor though I hope not. What do I look for to
>> determine what is
>> the "right" size? Tip size? Thanks!
>> Boyce
>
>
>
>
>
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