Pietenpol-List Digest Archive

Tue 10/28/08


Total Messages Posted: 26



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 03:38 AM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (HelsperSew@aol.com)
     2. 03:42 AM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings- bolt number and spacing (HelsperSew@aol.com)
     3. 04:09 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Phillips, Jack)
     4. 04:15 AM - Re: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh (Phillips, Jack)
     5. 04:37 AM - Re: Aluminum Struts (Michael Perez)
     6. 05:43 AM - Re: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh (Jeff Boatright)
     7. 06:02 AM - Re: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh (Ryan Mueller)
     8. 06:04 AM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Ryan Mueller)
     9. 06:27 AM - Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Oscar Zuniga)
    10. 06:58 AM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (HelsperSew@aol.com)
    11. 07:43 AM - Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings (Ryan Mueller)
    12. 08:04 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld (Bill Church)
    13. 08:20 AM - normalizing (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    14. 08:52 AM - Re: normalizing (Jim Ash)
    15. 09:47 AM - prefab metal parts (Oscar Zuniga)
    16. 10:01 AM - Lift struts (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
    17. 10:06 AM - Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
    18. 01:17 PM - Re: Lift Struts (Catdesigns)
    19. 01:30 PM - Re: Lift struts (Bill Church)
    20. 01:39 PM - Re: Lift struts (Ryan Mueller)
    21. 02:01 PM - Re: Lift struts (Ryan Mueller)
    22. 02:05 PM - Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh (Ryan Mueller)
    23. 07:38 PM - Lift struts (Oscar Zuniga)
    24. 09:33 PM - aileron travel (Richard Schreiber)
    25. 10:02 PM - Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh (Ryan Mueller)
    26. 10:48 PM - Re: Lift struts (bike.mike)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 03:38:26 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings
    In a message dated 10/27/2008 10:03:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rmueller23@gmail.com writes: are you going to install shims or spacers between the wing fittings and the strut attach fitting to prevent fore and aft movement on the bolt, or is th at not a concern? Yes, I will do something there to take-up that space. I need some kind of tie-down fitting there anyway so maybe that is a good place for it. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)


    Message 2


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    Time: 03:42:49 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings- bolt number and
    spacing Oscar, I am interested in your opinion and others on this. At the time I remember thinking through this and making a conscious decision, but now it eludes me . What is the shear strength of that whole system as it stands? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)


    Message 3


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    Time: 04:09:39 AM PST US
    Subject: Learning to weld
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
    Check with the Cozy Girrrls. Chrissi and Randi were at Brodhead exploring the possibility of making Pietenpol parts. They make high quality parts for other homebuilt aircraft, particularly for the Cozy. http://www.cozygirrrl.com/ Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 7:50 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld Is there anyone making the steel parts or ribs or ?? for the Piet for resale? I have an unmeasurable respect for you guys plans building. Occasionally, I think when the Mustang is complete, I will buy a completed Pietenpol, or maybe an unfinished project to speed the process along. I have three young children, and I barely get any time to build the Mustang(kit/quick build kit). I think when I get it done, I may be done with "projects"! Boyce _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese


    Message 4


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    Time: 04:15:55 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh
    From: "Phillips, Jack" <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
    I hope they will allow for us to land at Pioneer Airport. If so I will probably make the trip. If not, I'll likely pass. Too far to fly with today's gas prices to just be another homebuilt at OSH. This past year I flew the Piet to Brodhead from NC but didn't bother flying another 90 miles to OSH. Mine has a radio so I could lead a group into Pioneer. Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pieti Lowell Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:38 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh <Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to snuff.And steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18. Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in groups of 5. With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get those projects finished and flying Pieti Lowell Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698 _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese


    Message 5


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    Time: 04:37:47 AM PST US
    From: Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>
    Subject: Aluminum Struts
    Understood Bill. I have had a few metallurgy classes as well as the various welding classes, but never used the skills and now don't really remember m uch. I DO remember about aluminum and welding, as well as mechanical attach ment reasoning. I'll either find a way around it, or find someone to weld f or me. --- On Mon, 10/27/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote: From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts Michael, - You probably don't want to be welding the aluminum struts anyway. Many alum inum alloys will lose a significant amount of strength in the area adjacent to the weld. For instance,-with 6061-T6 (the alloy the Sky-Tek struts ar e made of), the design stress (in bending) drops from 24,000 psi to 14,000 psi within 1 inch of the weld. That is a very significant loss (more than 4 0%). The extreme heat of welding changes the molecular structure of the alu minum, resulting in localized reduced physical strength. The best approach for structural aluminum parts is to use mechanical fastening, rather than w elding. But there are lots of other areas on this wooden-airplane-that will nee d to be welded. So you will eventually either need to learn that skill, or find someone else that has the skill to do it for you. Steel struts are another story. No issues with loss of strength in the weld areas with steel. - Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 2:09 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aluminum Struts Thanks all for the replys. I like the aluminum struts with the custom machi ned end fittings that bolt on. The one thing I can't do/do not own is weldi ng tools. I can make up some really nice fittings and custom mounts, bolt i t together, done.


    Message 6


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    Time: 05:43:36 AM PST US
    From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
    Subject: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh
    I'm tentatively planning on Brodhead this year (from Atlanta!). I, too, would be more inclined to go on up to OSH if we could land and tie down at Pioneer Field. I don't mind the aspect of being "just another homebuilt at OSH" (maybe I have low self-esteem? ;-)), but I do think having a bunch of Piets tied down in front of the "Pietenpol Field" hangar would be very cool! Is there some way to approach EAA about this? I know that they have a few activities on Pioneer Field that may be of concern (e.g., the helicopter rides), but maybe something can be worked out. At 7:14 AM -0400 10/28/08, Phillips, Jack wrote: ><Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> > >I hope they will allow for us to land at Pioneer Airport. If so I will >probably make the trip. If not, I'll likely pass. Too far to fly with >today's gas prices to just be another homebuilt at OSH. This past year >I flew the Piet to Brodhead from NC but didn't bother flying another 90 >miles to OSH. > >Mine has a radio so I could lead a group into Pioneer. > >Jack Phillips >NX899JP >Raleigh, NC > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com >[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Pieti >Lowell >Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:38 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh > ><Lowellcfrank@yahoo.com> > >At this time we have been told to get our hard surface landings up to >snuff.And steerable tailwheels should be in order for runway 18. > Large info coverage will come from all angles, so learn to fly in >groups of 5. >With a leader, w/radio in each group. It sure will be super, so get >those projects finished and flying >Pieti Lowell > > >Read this topic online here: > >http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210698#210698 > > >_________________________________________________ > >or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, >please notify the sender > >Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - >Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese > > -- _____________________________________________________________ Jeffrey H. Boatright, PhD Associate Professor, Emory Eye Center, Atlanta, GA, USA Senior Editor, Molecular Vision, http://www.molvis.org/molvis mailto:jboatri@emory.edu


    Message 7


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    Time: 06:02:35 AM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: 80 th at Oshkosh
    Maybe a phone call to the PR people at Ford would be in order. Tell them that this will be the 80th anniversary of an originally Ford powered homebuilt. What a rare promotional opportunity they have to illustrate the effect Ford has had on our aviation heritage by having a couple Model A powered Piets at Pioneer Field (along with all the other Piets that can make it, Ford powered or not). Money talks at OSH, and lord knows they throw around plenty of it up there. Or maybe we could find a John Deere connection...hmm.... On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 7:40 AM, Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> wrote: > > I'm tentatively planning on Brodhead this year (from Atlanta!). I, too, > would be more inclined to go on up to OSH if we could land and tie down at > Pioneer Field. I don't mind the aspect of being "just another homebuilt at > OSH" (maybe I have low self-esteem? ;-)), but I do think having a bunch of > Piets tied down in front of the "Pietenpol Field" hangar would be very cool! > > Is there some way to approach EAA about this? I know that they have a few > activities on Pioneer Field that may be of concern (e.g., the helicopter > rides), but maybe something can be worked out.


    Message 8


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    Time: 06:04:55 AM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings
    Sounds like a good idea. Two birds with one stone... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 5:37 AM, <HelsperSew@aol.com> wrote: > In a message dated 10/27/2008 10:03:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > rmueller23@gmail.com writes: > > are you going to install shims or spacers between the wing fittings and the > strut attach fitting to prevent fore and aft movement on the bolt, or is > that not a concern? > > Yes, I will do something there to take-up that space. I need some kind of > tie-down fitting there anyway so maybe that is a good place for it. > > > Dan Helsper > Poplar Grove, IL. >


    Message 9


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    Time: 06:27:05 AM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Photos of aluminum strut fittings
    OK=2C so I'm blind-deaf-mute- and crazy. I guess it's from advancing age. I checked DJ's site and found this: http://imagedv.com/aircamper/log/image-pages/03-13-04.htm Clearly=2C his setup uses two AN4 bolts to attach the wing strut to the fit ting. His method is pretty elegant in that it incorporates a 4130 bar that's thre aded to accept an adjustable fork end (presumably at the lower end of the strut). And as t o prefabricated metal parts=2C someone on this list has posted a couple of times in the las t 2-3 months about having prefab fittings available for sale but I can't remember who it was. Like the man said=2C as I've gotten older I've finally gotten everything to gether in my life. Now if I could just remember where I put it... Oscar Zuniga Air camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 10


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    Time: 06:58:56 AM PST US
    From: HelsperSew@aol.com
    Subject: Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings
    Oscar, I actually used DJ's idea at the bottom end of my struts, but I used the 7075 aluminum (with the J-3 forks)instead of the 4130. The way I did it at the top end of the fittings do not lend itself to movin g the wing fore and aft. In my case it does not matter because I liked the wa y the airplane looks with the cabanes straight vertical. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)


    Message 11


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    Time: 07:43:18 AM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Photos of aluminum strut fittings
    This is may not be what you were referring to, but I finally ran across this piece o' paper this morning. Ken Perkins makes what appears to be just about every piece of metal on the airplane. He had a price list with him at Brodhead this year. I scanned it and posted the results on Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/2981632152/sizes/o/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/rmueller23/2980775607/sizes/o/ Hopefully that's plenty readable. If not let me know and I'll scan at a higher resolution. Certainly not cheap, as it would set you back about $4600 if you purchased all of the fuse, wing, and tail parts, but if you absolutely want to avoid fabricating them yourself it's one way to go. Unfortunately there was no contact information on the sheet. Maybe someone who has dealt with Ken could provide that if need be. Hope that helps, Ryan On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 8:26 AM, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote: > And as to prefabricated > metal parts, someone on this list has posted a couple of times in the last > 2-3 months about > having prefab fittings available for sale but I can't remember who it was. > >


    Message 12


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    Time: 08:04:38 AM PST US
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Subject: Re: Learning to weld
    Just a note of clarification, Clif. While 4130 IS heat-treatable, and can be strengthened considerably by heat treatment, it is not usually sold in that condition. Almost all 4130 tubing is sold in Normalized condition. The following definition is from the Aircraft Spruce website: " Normalizing consists of uniform heating to a temperature slightly above the point at which grain structure is affected (known as the critical temperature), followed by cooling in still air to room temperature. This produces a uniform structure and hardness throughout." In its normalized state, 4130 has an ultimate tensile strength of approximately 90,000 psi. This is almost double that of 1020 steel (55,000 psi). With proper heat treating, the strength of 4130 can be doubled again (up to 180,000 psi), but most homebuilt aircraft do not bother with this as the Normalized condition is plenty strong (especially if the airframe was originally designed to be built using 1020 steel). It is my understanding that if 4130 is welded using Oxy-Acetylene, and allowed to cool to room temperature in still air, the welds will not need to be normalized, as they will achieve that state naturally. If the welding is done in (or outside of) a shop where the air is moving, or the ambient air is colder, the welds should probably be normalized, as a safety precaution. I have also read that it is not really necessary to normalize thin-walled (less than 1/8" wall) 4130 tubing or plate that has been TIG welded. The heat produced by TIG welding is extremely intense and localized, thus resulting in a very small Heat Affected Zone. Again these welds should be allowed to cool to room temperature, in still air. This information, however, is what I have read - not based on my own experience. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Clif Dawson Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 10:54 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld --> <CDAWSON5854@shaw.ca> Another thing. 4130 gets it's high strength from heat treating. As soon as welding temperatures are reached that goes down the toilet. The heated area might as well be mild steel. That's why you see those fancy fish mouth joints in AC 41.13. Heat normalizing relieves stresses but does not restore any strength. Clif


    Message 13


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    Time: 08:20:44 AM PST US
    Subject: normalizing
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
    That is comforting to know Bill since I TIG welded my motor mount and then ala Tony Bingelis's suggestion, normalized with a torch, all the weld clusters before taking it out of my angle iron jig. I normalized the motor mount so I could do Lomcevak's and not worry about the motor falling off. I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now. Very reasonable and if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint. I was amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed the filler rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work who taught me over a few lunch hours. Gas welding ? I wouldn't try to weld a lawn mower part with my lack of gas welding skills. TIG is clean, easy, and very controllable even on those thin steel halves of the control horns. Amazing. If you get a chance at Oshkosh go to the Lincoln Electric welding pavilion and hang around the instructors for an hour or so and you'll learn more than you can imagine. I thought welding was a mysterious skill only known by powerful intellects from far away planets but like anything else...once you learn how to do it (like rib stitching), you find yourself enjoying it, feeling more accomplished, and you can barter your welding skills for other favors when someone comes up to you with a broken lawn mower part. Mike C.


    Message 14


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    Time: 08:52:00 AM PST US
    From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
    Subject: Re: normalizing
    I'll plug Sun 'n Fun for the workshops, too. Lincoln has pretty much taken over the welding tent and I really haven't sat through their standard spiel, so I can't really lay claim to how much you can learn as an individual (vs how much they can sell) in the workshop, but I suspect they do a pretty good job. There always seems to be an active contingent hanging around the TIG equipment, while it looks like the gas stations don't get quite their due, but this is from the persective of my workshop across the way, and we're generally too busy to take the time to go over there for a while. Lincoln always offers an attractive 'show special' price on their TIG machines, notably the 175 and 185. I've looked at them but haven't gotten caught in the right 'weak moment' enough to overcome my cheap tendencies and part with that much money in one place for a tool that doesn't run as much as my oil heater in the winter. But if you're looking for a good deal one one, waiting for Sun 'n Fun or OSH might be prudent if you want to be frugal and don't need it this instant. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov> >Sent: Oct 28, 2008 11:20 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: normalizing > >That is comforting to know Bill since I TIG welded my motor mount and >then ala Tony Bingelis's suggestion, normalized with a torch, all the >weld clusters before taking it out of my angle iron jig. I normalized >the motor mount so I could do Lomcevak's and not worry about the motor >falling off. > >I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now. >Very reasonable and if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint. >I was amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed >the filler rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work >who taught me over a few lunch hours. Gas welding ? I wouldn't try >to weld a lawn mower part with my lack of gas welding skills. >TIG is clean, easy, and very controllable even on those thin steel >halves of the control horns. Amazing. > >If you get a chance at Oshkosh go to the Lincoln Electric welding >pavilion and hang around the instructors for an hour or so and you'll >learn >more than you can imagine. I thought welding was a mysterious skill >only known by powerful intellects from far away planets but like >anything >else...once you learn how to do it (like rib stitching), you find >yourself enjoying it, feeling more accomplished, and you can barter your >welding >skills for other favors when someone comes up to you with a broken lawn >mower part. > >Mike C. > >


    Message 15


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    Time: 09:47:03 AM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: prefab metal parts
    >Certainly not cheap=2C as it would set you back about $4600 if you purchas ed >all of the fuse=2C wing=2C and tail parts=2C but if you absolutely want to avoid >fabricating them yourself it's one way to go. Or... buy the project that is for sale in Michigan for $3000 and not only d o you get all the fittings=2C you get a partially completed airplane to go with it and save $1600! Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio=2C TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 16


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    Time: 10:01:46 AM PST US
    From: lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan)
    Subject: Lift struts
    At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel streamline tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called them to find that they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small pieces. so much for that gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were? Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a while since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa at a hobby store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one else has some suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info quickly. If having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the bank, I am going to shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more turnbuckles from B&B to horde for a future project. Thank you Leon Stefan, Nickerson Ks.


    Message 17


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    Time: 10:06:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at
    Oshkosh
    From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
    Ryan, That is a BRILLIANT idea to approach EAA/FORD to sponsor (whatever that might mean) the 80th Anniversary gathering of Pietenpols at Oshkosh. Regarding landing at Pioneer Airport, I believe you would have to walk on water for anyone to be allowed to land there with all the foot traffic and Kid Venture setup there but it is worth a try and inquiry. I just rec'd a thick letter from Doc Mosher in the mail yesterday and unless they are papers serving me a lawsuit or notice of lien, I'm hoping when I open it tonight that it might outline our plans to take a group of Piets into Oshkosh in 2009. Bill Rewey was our lead pilot in 1999 and he's agreed to do that again in 2009, Lord willing, and Doc Mosher has ties at EAA and lives not very far away from EAA HQ. I'll post any news here if that is what Doc's note was about. (Otherwise I'll write from the prison computers:) Mike C.


    Message 18


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    Time: 01:17:59 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Lift Struts
    From: "Catdesigns" <Catdesigns@att.net>
    >From the archives Match: #1 Message: #15540 From: Doug413(at)aol.com Subject: Re: tube drag In a message dated 11/18/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com writes: > I was working in the garage and was thinking about the cost of streamlined struts and wondered what would be the horsepower penalty for going with round struts. So after about an hour looking through my Fluid Dynamics book, of which I haven't looked at in 10 years, I calculated the drag. My assumptions were 100mph at standard pressure and temperature (half the battle was figuring out the density of air) of a 1" diameter tube and got about 0.15 horsepower per foot of length. The coefficient of drag for a eliptical tube, which is close to a streamlined tube, was about 1/3 of that. The sort-of Pietenpol-like aircraft that I'm working on has 25' of tube and would take almost 4 HP to push a round tube through the air. The streamlined tube would save about 2 or 3 horsepower. Just thought y'all would be interested and please don't hold me to the calculations. Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois Robert, I used 1 1/4 dia x .049 wall round tubing and skip welded a steel V shaped trailing edge to it. 102 hours on the ship now without jury struts; works great. I got this idea from a Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter years ago. Doug Bryant -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210841#210841


    Message 19


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    Time: 01:30:57 PM PST US
    From: "Bill Church" <eng@canadianrogers.com>
    Subject: Lift struts
    Leon, For a different approach to streamlining of round lift struts, check out this website. http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/weedhopper/Streamline/fairings.html This guy uses styrofoam rather than balsa. He wraps the styrofoam with Vinyl tarp repair tape, rather than linen and dope - I imagine dope would not be compatible with the styrofoam. Using styrofoam cut with a hot wire is a lot cheaper than balsa, and should be pretty easy to get decent results. Bill C. -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Leon Stefan Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2008 12:59 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Lift struts At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel streamline tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called them to find that they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small pieces. so much for that gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were? Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a while since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa at a hobby store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one else has some suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info quickly. If having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the bank, I am going to shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more turnbuckles from B&B to horde for a future project. Thank you Leon Stefan, Nickerson Ks.


    Message 20


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    Time: 01:39:34 PM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Lift struts
    Leon, You probably heard Bill Rewey say that during his talk (I heard him mention it at Brodhead and OSH). As I wrote a few days ago, I talked to Bill this past weekend and confirmed the size. He said that their 1.78 x 1.06 x .049 1020 mild steel streamline tubing would work. It's part number L-544-007 in their print catalog (didn't see it online). I called Wag-Aero on Monday to confirm price and availability. The woman I spoke with said the current price is $5.99 per foot (same as in the July '08 catalog), with a 10 ft minimum length. She said it is in stock. When they told you they were almost out of the mild steel they may have been referring to the 1025 tubing of the same dimensions listed as a clearance item in their July '08 catalog. That's what I know about that... Ryan On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:58 AM, Leon Stefan <lshutks@webtv.net> wrote: > > At Brodhead we wee told by someone that Wag-Aero has mild steel > streamline tubing for 1/3 t0 1/4 the price of 4130. I promptly called > them to find that they only had 2 sticks long enough, then some small > pieces. so much for that gold mine. To the lister who said he flew a > Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped > your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were? > Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? It,s been a > while since I checked, but it was just about as expensive to buy balsa > at a hobby store, as to buy 4130 streamline from a supplier. If any one > else has some suggestions on round 4130 size and thickness post the info > quickly. If having my water well overhauled today doesn't brake the > bank, I am going to shoot up to Kansas City for steel tubing and more > turnbuckles from B&B to horde for a future project. Thank you Leon > Stefan, Nickerson Ks.


    Message 21


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    Time: 02:01:25 PM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Lift struts
    The Weedhopper! A number of years ago, while helping out with an aviation museum they were starting at the airport I was working at, I helped another volunteer reassemble an old Weedhopper. We also managed to get it running as well. It was donated to the museum and sold at auction later on, I believe. I think it's relative significance was that it was the first ultralight to fly in the county. Interesting little machine; it looked like it would be blast to hop around in the still air of a nice calm summer evening. I think I recall reading that the designer perished in one of his designs in the early '80s. I believe he was a relatively prolific ultralight designer, and I think he may be in the EAA HoF in some capacity. Anywho.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:29 PM, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote: > Leon, > > For a different approach to streamlining of round lift struts, check out > this website. > *http://personal.southern.edu/~dascott/weedhopper/Streamline/fairings.html > *<http://personal.southern.edu/%7Edascott/weedhopper/Streamline/fairings.html> > > This guy uses styrofoam rather than balsa. He wraps the styrofoam with > Vinyl tarp repair tape, rather than linen and dope - I imagine dope would > not be compatible with the styrofoam. Using styrofoam cut with a hot wire is > a lot cheaper than balsa, and should be pretty easy to get decent results. > > Bill C. >


    Message 22


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    Time: 02:05:17 PM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th
    at Oshkosh Mike, I'm going to print out your email and tape it to the fridge. Jess brought home a Curious George sticker with him flying an airplane, and that may even go on it as well. :P Here's to hoping that Doc is not taking you to small claims court! ;) Have a good one, Ryan do not archive On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] < Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: > Ryan, > > That is a BRILLIANT idea to approach EAA/FORD to sponsor (whatever that > might mean) the 80th Anniversary gathering of Pietenpols at Oshkosh. > Regarding landing at Pioneer Airport, I believe you would have to walk on > water for anyone to be allowed to land there with all the foot traffic and > Kid Venture setup there but it is worth a try and inquiry. > > I just rec'd a thick letter from Doc Mosher in the mail yesterday and > unless they are papers serving me a lawsuit or notice of lien, I'm hoping > when I open it tonight that it might outline our plans to take a group of > Piets into Oshkosh in 2009. Bill Rewey was our lead pilot in 1999 and > he's agreed to do that again in 2009, Lord willing, and Doc Mosher has ties > at EAA and lives not very far away from EAA HQ. I'll post any > news here if that is what Doc's note was about. (Otherwise I'll write > from the prison computers:) > > Mike C. >


    Message 23


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    Time: 07:38:15 PM PST US
    From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
    Subject: Lift struts
    Y'know, I almost started to mention shaping the streamlines for round tubing out of foam but I've seen first-hand what the Poly-Fiber (Stits) materials do when they even get close to foam. Same as gasoline... the foam dissolves in an instant. However, urethane foam is immune to those effects so any of the readily-available urethane foams could be used to shape the streamlines on round tubing and could then be covered with fabric and finishes and it wouldn't matter if the Poly-Brush, Poly-Spray, or Poly-Tone got through the fabric. Or, using latex house paint, everything would be completely compatible. Some of the benefits of urethane foams: very light, very easy to shape (can even be 'sanded' using a block of the same foam), and not affected by fuels or most solvents. Even a wood guy can work with this stuff ;o) Drawbacks: the foam is sort of fragile and is very dependent on the covering to provide protection against dings, and is also sensitive to sunlight so applying silver or other UV block is essential. Obviously, latex house paint would be perfect in that department. I'd have to guess that balsa would be more forgiving with dings but urethane is cheaper, just as light, and quite easy to shape and fill. The gear legs on my Flying Squirrel are round tubing but I've infilled the vees with polystyrene foam and fiberglassed over the whole thing to make them look sort of like Cub gear. Photos are at http://www.flysquirrel.net/gear/gear.html and pictures of the final product are a couple of photos down on my home page at http://www.flysquirrel.net Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net


    Message 24


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    Time: 09:33:54 PM PST US
    From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge@earthlink.net>
    Subject: aileron travel
    Well today was another milestone day for my project. I have both ailerons mated to the wings using aluminum piano hinges. I did a lot of checking and rechecking to make sure everything was lined up properly before I started drilling. Everything worked out great! Everything is in line and the hinges work freely. It was very satisfying to slide the hinge pins back in and have everything fit. Right now I have the hinges mounted with some temporary pan head screws with washers. There seems to be plenty of clearance when I move the ailerons to the bottom of their travel. I was wondering though what the typical down travel is on the ailerons? Right now with the thicker headed temporary screws I am getting about 3 3/4 inches. Richard Schreiber In cold Valparaiso Indiana lmforge@earthlink.net


    Message 25


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    Time: 10:02:26 PM PST US
    From: "Ryan Mueller" <rmueller23@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th
    at Oshkosh I'm going to make a phone call....I don't know that I can raise a channel that will help, but I will try with what I have.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 12:05 PM, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] < Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov> wrote: > ...to approach EAA/FORD to sponsor (whatever that might mean) the 80th > Anniversary gathering of Pietenpols at Oshkosh >


    Message 26


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    Time: 10:48:27 PM PST US
    From: "bike.mike" <bike.mike@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: Lift struts
    Another drawback of urethane foam is the initial shaping. It can be hot-wire cut but it takes a lot more heat than polystyrene and, worse, it off-gasses some awful stuff, phosgene, I think. It needs to be cut in really good ventilation if hot-wired. It does saw and sand very easily, but leaves some very stubborn dust. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Oscar Zuniga" <taildrags@hotmail.com> [snip] However, urethane foam is immune to those effects so any of the readily-available urethane foams could be used to shape the streamlines on round tubing and could then be covered with fabric and finishes and it wouldn't matter if the Poly-Brush, Poly-Spray, or Poly-Tone got through the fabric. Or, using latex house paint, everything would be completely compatible. > > Some of the benefits of urethane foams: very light, very easy to shape (can even be 'sanded' using a block of the same foam), and not affected by fuels or most solvents. Even a wood guy can work with this stuff ;o) Drawbacks: the foam is sort of fragile and is very dependent on the covering to provide protection against dings, and is also sensitive to sunlight so applying silver or other UV block is essential. [snip]




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