Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:43 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Bill Church)
2. 03:24 AM - Re: aileron travel (HelsperSew@aol.com)
3. 03:38 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (HelsperSew@aol.com)
4. 04:31 AM - Re: aileron travel (Phillips, Jack)
5. 06:18 AM - shaping foam (Oscar Zuniga)
6. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash)
7. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds (HelsperSew@aol.com)
8. 08:11 AM - Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez)
9. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
10. 08:45 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Phillips, Jack)
11. 09:04 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Kirk Huizenga)
12. 09:21 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash)
13. 09:27 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez)
14. 09:33 AM - Chrissi's welding notes, advice (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
15. 09:35 AM - Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh (shad bell)
16. 09:38 AM - how the heck do you rib stitch anyway ??????????? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
17. 09:47 AM - Re: Lift struts (Owen Davies)
18. 10:17 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Phillips, Jack)
19. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash)
20. 10:52 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez)
21. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Lift Struts (Ken Chambers)
22. 11:05 AM - Re: Lift struts (Bill Church)
23. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB)
24. 11:48 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Jeff Boatright)
25. 11:52 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Owen Davies)
26. 12:05 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Bill Church)
27. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jeff Boatright)
28. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
29. 01:37 PM - Normalizing thin tube tig welds (JERRY GROGAN)
30. 04:05 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
31. 04:16 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (HelsperSew@aol.com)
32. 04:41 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
33. 04:43 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash)
34. 04:45 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez)
35. 04:49 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez)
36. 04:50 PM - Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds (Jim Ash)
37. 05:05 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash)
38. 07:19 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Clif Dawson)
39. 07:20 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Owen Davies)
40. 08:32 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com)
41. 09:24 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (charles loomis)
42. 11:03 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Gary Boothe)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
For those curious about TIG welding of 4130, here is a link with some useful information
(including recommended filler rods, and whether normalization is required
for thin walled tubing welds):
http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210924#210924
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| Subject: | Re: aileron travel |
Richard,
Congrats on the milestone. How 'bout some pictures?
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Bill,
I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WEL
L
worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you hav
e
instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world
and
you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too wa
s
an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
square
wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff
.
BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites
,
no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 4
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Hi Richard,
Aileron travel should be able to go all the way down till the hinges
bottom out. In actuality, at least in my Pietenpol, the limiting factor
is the stick hitting my thigh, but it's pretty close to maximum
deflection of the aileron.
I remember Valparaiso, Indiana. Mike Cuy and I stopped there for fuel
on our way to Brodhead in 2005. Nice friendly airport, and as I recall
they served hotdogs for pilots flying ot OSH (or Brodhead)
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:29 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron travel
Well today was another milestone day for my project. I have both
ailerons mated to the wings using aluminum piano hinges. I did a lot of
checking and rechecking to make sure everything was lined up properly
before I started drilling. Everything worked out great! Everything is in
line and the hinges work freely. It was very satisfying to slide the
hinge pins back in and have everything fit.
Right now I have the hinges mounted with some temporary pan head screws
with washers. There seems to be plenty of clearance when I move the
ailerons to the bottom of their travel. I was wondering though what the
typical down travel is on the ailerons? Right now with the thicker
headed temporary screws I am getting about 3 3/4 inches.
Richard Schreiber
In cold Valparaiso Indiana
lmforge@earthlink.net
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orsk - Portuguese
Message 5
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Do NOT hot-wire urethane foams! Polyisocyanurate = cyanide! It's OK to hot-wire
polystyrene though.
What I did to create shapes was to take a block of wood that I could hold in my
hand, scribe the desired shape on the end with a marker or pencil, and cut the
shape out of the block with a bandsaw (stand the block on end). That shape
could be either the leading edge or trailing edge of a streamline (you'd be making
those pieces separately and sandwiching your round tube between them). A
round recess is easily sanded into the foam by wrapping a piece of dowel or PVC
pipe with sandpaper, to create the recess to receive your round strut.
With the shape cut out of the block, I glued coarse grit sandpaper into the recess
in the block with contact cement and then I had a hand sanding block that
I could run up and down the rough-shaped edge and form it to final shape. That's
how I did the edges of all the tail surfaces on the Squirrel, pretty quick
and pretty easy. I used the roll sandpaper that is used on floor sanding machines...
very coarse grit but you can pick your grit according to how much you
have to hog off.
And on a different subject, not trying to create a political controversy here,
but wouldn't it be cool if Sarah Palin showed up at OSH next year, stumbled onto
the 80th anniversary gathering, and asked for a ride in a Piet? Any takers?
Mikeee-? I'll bet she'd even be game for a flour bombing run ;o)
Oscar Zuniga, diving for my foxhole now...
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone public
yet? I'd like to read it.
One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding
are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' for
an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement
(or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes
to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity controls, practical
cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing after TIG
welding.
People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time ratio,
being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also enjoy
the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut that last
optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things
I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional.
Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to
come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result and more willing
to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it.
If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal environment
to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but it might
be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln
machines.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>Bill,
>
>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL
>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have
>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and
>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was
>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square
>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff.
>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites,
>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
Jim,
You can go to Mr. Swaim's web sight _www.tigdepot.net_
(http://www.tigdepot.net) and ask him the question directly about the need (or not) for
normalizing thin tube tig welds. I have read in numerous reliable places that
it is
NOT necessary.
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 8
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the
lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see
the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , so that tells
me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile enough?
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimu
m of
a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.
They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you a
n
ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with som
eone
looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from s
omeone
who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hour
s
of frustrating trial and error.
All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want t
o do
on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones
you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn ou
t
then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
public yet? I'd like to read it.
One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle r
oom'
for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidi
ty
controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not nor
malizing
after TIG welding.
People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcu
t
that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of
the
things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring
a
professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final resul
t
and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as
I
can do it.
If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-idea
l
environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
Lincoln machines.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>Bill,
>
>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
WELL
>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
have
>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
world and
>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
was
>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 17
5
square
>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
stuff.
>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
also.
>
>Dan Helsper
>Poplar Grove, IL.
>
>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
favorites,
>no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 10
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts
carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200
lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000
lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the
load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile
load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load
divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30
degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an
axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads,
rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference
to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of
the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the
diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000
psi.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate
for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about
45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the
order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the
45,000PSI tensile enough?
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off
ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod
for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's
tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around
I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld
of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I
call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently
in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going
to productive not artistic!", she retorted.
Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building.
With still much to learn, do, and enjoy
KIrk
On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote:
> >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also
> besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as
> rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally
> would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding
> equipment. <
>
> Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment
> to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light
> 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a
> good manual / training video available?
>
> Tom Stinemetze
> McPherson, KS.
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld |
Congrats.
When I was taking welding classes, we were welding two 8"x2" strips of 3/8" steel
together. My wife was taking weaving classes at the same time. We joked about
our samples being 'refrigerator magnets', like the artwork your 5-year-old
brings home from kindergarden.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: Kirk Huizenga <kirkh1@gmail.com>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 12:01 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld
>
>I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off
>ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod
>for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's
>tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around
>
>I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld
>of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I
>call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently
>in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going
>to productive not artistic!", she retorted.
>
>Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building.
>
>With still much to learn, do, and enjoy
>KIrk
>
>On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote:
>
>> >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also
>> besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as
>> rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally
>> would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding
>> equipment. <
>>
>> Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment
>> to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light
>> 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a
>> good manual / training video available?
>>
>> Tom Stinemetze
>> McPherson, KS.
>>
>>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o
r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The
aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you
r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (?
)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car
ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs
, at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs,
or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load,
they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t
he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by
the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to
the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb
s/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
-
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads
, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen
ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th
e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia
meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi.
-
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for
the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on
up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s
o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en
ough? - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________
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| Subject: | Chrissi's welding notes, advice |
As a casual observation and opinion I would take note of anything that
Chrissi posts very seriously regarding aircraft hardware, fittings,
assemblies, heat treating, welding,
and otherwise since last summer at Brodhead I had an enjoyable
opportunity to meet her and Randi, as many of you did, but was given
a look at what you see below (a Cozy motor mount) fabricated from CG
Products, namely Chrissi. Absolutely outstanding craftsmanship
and quality.
http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftparts.htm
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| Subject: | Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th |
at Oshkosh
Can Chevy piets attend? ha ha
Shad
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| Subject: | how the heck do you rib stitch anyway ??????????? |
Years back when I faced covering my project I knew I would have to learn
the art of rib stitching. Turns out a few well-spent sessions
at the fabric tent at Oshkosh was all I needed along with some video
taping of the instructors showing other people how to do these
starter knots and finishing knots. I practiced a few times during the
week and finally got the hang of it and as it turned out I loved it !
I would come home after work, turn on my little tv in my single car
garage and watch the 5 pm news, 6 pm news, Entertainment Tonight,
then some of the Indians game, then the 10 pm news, all while
ribsitiching and it was great. Highly recommend wrapping your fingers
with masking tape where there are rub points and tightening
rawness...works like a charm.
Welding is the same way---a mystery, intimidating, something you just
want to put off but once you jump in, get taught, get some practice,
and get some good welds under your belt it is extreeeeeeeeeeemly
satisfying.....until your first takeoff or first severe turbulence:)
Message 17
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Among other comments, Leon Stefan wrote:
> To the lister who said he flew a
> Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped
> your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were?
> Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? (etc.)
A guy I used to know built a Heath parasol using round tubing for the
lift struts. Don't know the size; in any case, a Piet would need
something larger. The interesting part was the fairings: lumberyard blue
foam, sanded to shape, wrapped in fiberglass drywall tape, and epoxied.
Couldn't have been lighter or stiffer, and it's hard to imagine how it
could have been much cheaper. FWIW.
Owen
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol,
since they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate
CG positioning. Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an
angle to the chord line). Radial refers to the sperhical bearing.
Since the strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in
the bearing translates to an axial load in the strut. The other load
specified for such pieces is an axial load in the bearing - in other
words, a load trying to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in
the direction of the bolt axis. Confused???
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either
aluminum or steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just
tensile. The aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel
around 70,000. In your response, you state axial load, then say your
ends are rated radially. (?)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
wrote:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts
carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200
lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000
lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the
load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile
load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load
divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30
degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an
axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads,
rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference
to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of
the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the
diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000
psi.
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate
for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about
45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the
order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the
45,000PSI tensile enough?
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
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rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
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blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List>
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Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick.
Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative types started
making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum than welding.
I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of everything
they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't
have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class is
that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece of equipment
at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all water-cooled. I've
had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little
quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job welding
replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino, using a cheapie
MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The duty cycle on it was
about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on
a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back
or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and jury-rigging
that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG machine, but that
little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me gunshy of even considering
anything less than professional-quality equipment.
That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a have
a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I haven't
welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster art' and that
box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my butt is going
to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas torch.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
>and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum
of
> a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it.
>They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an
>ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
>NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone
>looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
>instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone
>who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours
>of frustrating trial and error.
>All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
>right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to
do
>on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones
>you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out
>then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
>
>Regards, Chrissi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>=====
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
>Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
>public yet? I'd like to read it.
>
>One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
>homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room'
>for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
>basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
>construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity
>controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing
>after TIG welding.
>
>People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
>ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
>enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut
>that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the
>things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a
>professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
>enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result
>and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I
>can do it.
>
>If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal
>environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
>it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
>Lincoln machines.
>
>Jim Ash
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
>WELL
>>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
>have
>>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
>world and
>>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
>was
>>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
>square
>>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
>stuff.
>>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
>also.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
>favorites,
>>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
>>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 20
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo
rk. I am making my own designed center section wing mounts. With mine, the
solid ends-WILL allow adjustment side to side of the center section. (win
g tip to wing tip). The fore and aft adjustment will be made at the bottom
of the center section struts, at the fuselage. The angle of incidence will
be made by adjusting the length of the solid rod ends.
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol, sin
ce they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate CG po
sitioning.- Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an angle
to the chord line).- Radial refers to the sperhical bearing.- Since th
e strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in the bearin
g translates to an axial load in the strut.- The other load specified for
such pieces is an axial load in the bearing ' in other words, a load try
ing to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in the direction of th
e bolt axis.- Confused???
-
-
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o
r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The
aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you
r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (?
)
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com> wro
te:
From: Phillips, Jack <Jack.Phillips@cardinalhealth.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the
middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car
ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs
, at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs,
or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load,
they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t
he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by
the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to
the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb
s/.50 or 4,000 lbs.
-
I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads
, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen
ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th
e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia
meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi.
-
Jack Phillips, PE
Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development
Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services
Creedmoor, NC
(919) 528-5212
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
-
I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for
the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on
up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s
o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en
ough?-- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -___________________
______________________________ -This message is for the designated recipi
ent only and may contain privileged, proprietaryor otherwise private inform
ation. If you have received it in error, please notify the senderimmediatel
-Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands
- Norsk - Portuguese - -" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.ma
tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com
blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution - -
-http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronic
s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________________
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Message 21
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Hey Doug
This sounds like a pretty good way to go.
Can you tell us more about the steel v trailing edge you welded on to the
lift struts.
Ken in Austin, making hundreds of gussets for wing ribs.
On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Catdesigns <Catdesigns@att.net> wrote:
>
> >From the archives
>
> Match: #1
> Message: #15540
> From: Doug413(at)aol.com
> Date: Nov 19, 2001
> Subject: Re: tube drag
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com writes:
>
> > I was working in the garage and was thinking about the cost of
> streamlined struts and wondered what would be the horsepower penalty for
> going with round struts. So after about an hour looking through my Fluid
> Dynamics book, of which I haven't looked at in 10 years, I calculated the
> drag. My assumptions were 100mph at standard pressure and temperature (half
> the battle was figuring out the density of air) of a 1" diameter tube and
> got about 0.15 horsepower per foot of length. The coefficient of drag for a
> eliptical tube, which is close to a streamlined tube, was about 1/3 of
> that. The sort-of Pietenpol-like aircraft that I'm working on has 25' of
> tube and would take almost 4 HP to push a round tube through the air. The
> streamlined tube would save about 2 or 3 horsepower. Just thought y'all
> would be interested and please don't hold me to the calculations.
>
> Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois
>
>
> Robert, I used 1 1/4 dia x .049 wall round tubing and skip welded a steel V
> shaped trailing edge to it. 102 hours on the ship now without jury struts;
> works great. I got this idea from a Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter years ago.
>
> Doug Bryant
>
> --------
> Chris Tracy
> Sacramento, CA
> WestCoastPiet.com
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210841#210841
>
>
--
Ken Chambers
512-796-1798
Message 22
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For what it's worth, according to drawings published in a 1987 edition of
the Experimenter, The Heath LN Parasol (with the N-braced wings) apparently
used 1 1/8" x .035" (SAE 1015) tubing for the front and rear lift struts,
and 1 1/4" x .035" for the center (diagonal) strut. Remember, though, that
the Heath is a much smaller plane than the Pietenpol (this fact becomes
really apparent if you happen to walk up to Chris Price's Heath that is
based at Brodhead. That is a tiny airplane)
Bill C.
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Gee, welding sure sounds like it is work and may take some skill. That makes the
deal I just did sound great. In exchange for a $10 military surplus maid cart
(you know the maids push them around with a trash bag on one side and a dirty
linnen bag on the other with cleaning supplies and sheets in the middle) hanger
neigbors Steve and Freda (mentioned by Oscar earlier) are going to practice
welding on a swiveling jack onto my old plymouth pickup bed trailer.
The weld does not have to be particularly pretty (or pretty at all) so it will
be great for Steve to learn/practice welding. The price is right for me also.
BTW, Oscar is getting too snooty for his own good. He turned down one of these
maid carts. Said he does not want to clutter up his hangers (yes two hangers!)
on he keeps his Peit in and one he is building anouther plane in.
Blue skies
Steve D
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
> I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick.
Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the
> administrative types started making noises that they'd rather have
> a food service curriculum than welding. I backed off focusing on
> the certs and practiced all kinds of everything they had. Never
> got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't
> have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
>
> Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in
> that class is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to
> work on a lesser piece of equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG
> machines I used were all water-cooled. I've had my reservations
> about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little quality
> time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job
> welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-
> Camino, using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have
> known better. The duty cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get
> about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on a thermal check.
> That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back or
> burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and
> jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a
> MIG machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That
> job made me gunshy of even considering anything less than
> professional-quality equip!
> ment.
>
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>
> Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all.
> It's why a have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted
> sizes here. Granted I haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll
> have lots of little 'cluster art' and that box will be long empty
> before I consider welding up anything my butt is going to fly
> behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas
> torch.
>
> Jim
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
> workshops>
> >The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the
> homebuilder
> >and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go
> take a minimum of
> > a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize
> yourself with it.
> >They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will
> make you an
> >ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something
> you will
> >NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but
> also with someone
> >looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say
> "try this
> >instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in
> technique from someone
> >who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster
> than many hours
> >of frustrating trial and error.
> >All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of
> course go
> >right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what
> you want to do
> >on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that
> simulate the ones
> >you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they
> will turn out
> >then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
> >
> >Regards, Chrissi
> >
> >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
> >www.CozyGirrrl.com
> >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
> >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
> >=====
> >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
> >we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
> >Please do not make your spam problem ours.
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>
> >ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
> >
> >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <
> >
> >Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone
> >public yet? I'd like to read it.
> >
> >One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
> >homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room'
> >for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or
> >basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
> >construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity
> >controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing
> >after TIG welding.
> >
> >People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time
> >ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also
> >enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut
> >that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of
the
> >things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring
a
> >professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good
> >enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result
> >and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as
I
> >can do it.
> >
> >If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal
> >environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but
> >it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little
> >Lincoln machines.
> >
> >Jim Ash
> >
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
> >>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
> >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >>
> >>Bill,
> >>
> >>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
> >WELL
> >>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
> >>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
> >have
> >>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
> >world and
> >>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too
> >was
> >>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
> >>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175
> >square
> >>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
> >stuff.
> >>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
> >also.
> >>
> >>Dan Helsper
> >>Poplar Grove, IL.
> >>
> >>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
> >favorites,
> >>no registration required and great graphics check it out!
> >>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
> >5 Travel Deals!
> >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
Message 25
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Jim Ash wrote:
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
by then, and he's likely to know.
Owen
Message 26
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Mike,
The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing,
or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile
strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the
cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds
per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is
dependant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the
lower tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area than steel,
with the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry
the same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference
will be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the
aluminum one.
If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fittings
out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). My
main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load,
provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that
cross-sectional area is practical is another question.
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being
as strong as its weakest link.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will
work.
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Fess up Oscar, what's the the other plane you're building? Enquiring minds...
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Dear Jim,
Contact TIGdepot.net and he'll fix you right up with a very nice compact
water cooled TIG handpiece with a flexible head and 12 or 25 ft hoses and
adapter. All the consumables are the same as the handpiece that comes with
the
welder. The added bonus is that the three flex tubes coming out of it are v
ery
flexible compared to the regular single cable, this means much less fatigue
and easier maneuverability... it changed my life!
For the kind of welding you would be doing (up to 1/8") all you need is a 5
gallon bucket of water and a fountain pump from Harbor Freight. All you will
get is a dribble (with 25 ft hoses that's all you will get). I do a lot of
production welding with this setup and thin goatskin gloves and never notice
the
handpiece getting warm.
Have fun, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
=====
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 12:49:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified
stick. Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative ty
pes
started making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum tha
n
welding. I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of
everything they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plasti
c (they
didn't have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop.
Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class
is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece
of
equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all
water-cooled. I've had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I
got to spend
a little quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare
job welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino,
using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The dut
y
cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it w
ould
kick off on a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it
was
bucking back or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting
and jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG
machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me
gunshy
of even considering anything less than professional-quality equipment.
That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a
have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I
haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster a
rt'
and that box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my bu
tt
is going to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a
gas torch.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>
>The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder
>and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a
minimum of
> a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with
it.
>They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you
an
>ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will
>NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with
someone
>looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this
>instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from
someone
>who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many
hours
>of frustrating trial and error.
>All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go
>right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want
to do
>on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the
ones
>you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn
out
>then accept the mediocre results as good enough.
>
>Regards, Chrissi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>=====
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
>ashcan@earthlink.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
>Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has
gone
>public yet? I'd like to read it.
>
>One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of
>homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle
room'
>for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage o
r
>basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite
>construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and
humidity
>controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not
normalizing
>after TIG welding.
>
>People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the
work/time
>ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to
also
>enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not
shortcut
>that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most o
f
the
>things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hirin
g
a
>professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm goo
d
>enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final
result
>and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good a
s
I
>can do it.
>
>If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a
less-than-ideal
>environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas,
but
>it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those littl
e
>Lincoln machines.
>
>Jim Ash
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: HelsperSew@aol.com
>>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was
>WELL
>>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and
>>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you
>have
>>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the
>world and
>>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he to
o
>was
>>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I
>>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln
175
>square
>>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of
>stuff.
>>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good
>also.
>>
>>Dan Helsper
>>Poplar Grove, IL.
>>
>>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your
>favorites,
>>no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out!
>>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001)
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's
Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 29
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| Subject: | Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
Jim
We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I
don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on
an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark
and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it
cool by itself.
Good luck
Jerry Grogan
Prairie City, IA
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly
head.
If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of
the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each
Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the
power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the
time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of
taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are
pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious
entry level welders.
In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening,
I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary.
The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials
though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting
(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.
Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a
call, they know what EAAers need.
Regards, Chrissi & Randi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
owen5819@comcast.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
Jim Ash wrote:
> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
by then, and he's likely to know.
Owen
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 31
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Chrissy,
Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave
machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!!
Drat!!! OH well..................
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 32
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|
| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops |
Dan,
The water cooled head is nice but unless you do a lot of high amp long duty
cycle welding you can wait awhile, get a heavier glove =)
The best news is you bought a darn good welder to begin with. Go Red! We own
three Lincoln welders.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 6:17:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
HelsperSew@aol.com writes:
Chrissy,
Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave
machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!!
Drat!!! OH well..................
Dan Helsper
Poplar Grove, IL.
____________________________________
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. _Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel
Deals!_ (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
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Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any experience with any of those kits
that will convert your stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of
the sting out of the price, and gives me a little more versatility to be able
to do either stick or TIG.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>
>Jim Ash wrote:
>> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
>be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
>particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
>would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
>gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
>
>When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
>Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
>by then, and he's likely to know.
>
>Owen
>
>
Message 34
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|
| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Well, the nice part about rod ends, they come in all kinds of sizes, shapes, ball
configurations, lubricated, solid, etc. If you are worried about the screw
length being to short, you may be able to find the same size rod end, just longer
on the threads, or one that is threaded up to the head. I would guess, as
with nuts and bolts, if you can verify that you have more then 2-4 full threads
engaged, you should be OK for the straight tension loads. No clue on side loads.
Personally, I plan to use solid rod ends...no ball...and keep them as short
as I can, but still have about an inch of adjustment.
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> wrote:
From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
<jboatri@emory.edu>
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
Message 35
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Understood. My delema is this: I can get steel ends or aluminum ends, both
solid and both about the same size...1/4" hole, 1/4-20 threads, 1-1/2" long
threaded shaft, etc. The steel ends are cheaper, but I am sure they weigh
more. They are rated at 75,000 PSI tensil, the aluminum is rated at 45,000.
How do I figure if the 45,000 is enough?
--- On Wed, 10/29/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Mike,
-
The overall-load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing
, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile
strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-s
ectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per sq
uare inch, so the load (in pounds) that -it can carry obviously is depend
ant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lowe
r tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area-than steel, w
ith the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry th
e same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference wi
ll be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the alum
inum one.
If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fitting
s out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). M
y main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load,
provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-section
al area is practical is another question.
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only bein
g as strong as its weakest link.
-
Bill C.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis
t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the
email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo
rk.
Message 36
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| Subject: | Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds |
One of the questions I meant to ask is if I normalize after TIG welding, does it
hurt anything besides wasting some of my time? Is there a structural down side
to normalizing or is it just the extra work that seems to be the issue?
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: JERRY GROGAN <jerry@skyclassic.net>
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 4:36 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds
>
>Jim
>
>We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think
you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount.
We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire
joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself.
>
>Good luck
>Jerry Grogan
>Prairie City, IA
>
>
Message 37
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I tend to do a lot of welding off and on, and on a wide variety of stuff. I've
got a cast iron job for a friend here right now waiting for me to be allowed out.
The rod alone prices out at about $7 a stick, but it's still cheaper for him
than having the part remade.
I'm not really looking for a unit to get me through an airplane. I'm looking for
a unit that I can use for everything, including an airplane.
I never really got out of the workshop at SNF this last year; been meaning to just
to see the show sometime.
Jim
-----Original Message-----
>From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com
>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:59 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly
>head.
>If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of
>the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each
>Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the
>power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the
> time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of
>taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are
>pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious
>entry level welders.
>In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening,
>I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary.
>The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials
>though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting
>(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever.
>Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a
>call, they know what EAAers need.
>
>Regards, Chrissi & Randi
>
>CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
>www.CozyGirrrl.com
>Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
>Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
>==============================
>If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
>we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
>Please do not make your spam problem ours.
>
>
>In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>owen5819@comcast.net writes:
>
>--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
>
>Jim Ash wrote:
>> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April.
>Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to
>be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in
>particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we
>would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to
>gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there.
>
>When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie
>Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along
>by then, and he's likely to know.
>
>Owen
>
>
>**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
>5 Travel Deals!
>(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 38
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| Subject: | Re: Adequate rod ends |
I think we need some clarification of what's involved with
determining the actual strength of the part.
There are four areas in question on this fitting. What has
to be determined is which area is the smallest. That's
going to be the weakest therefore the one that determines
if the part is strong enough. This "part" is made up of two
pieces, the shank and the base that's welded or bolted to
the strut.
As you can see in pic 1 there are four "areas" involved.
D1 is the solid portion of the threaded shank, D2 is the
shank bit between the threads and head, which may be
smaller than D1, A is the area of the head cross section
that holds the ball and the thread area is the cross section
area of the threads themseves.
If either the shank or base is stronger than the other, ie
one is steel and the other aluminum, then the weaker is
the determining strength.
In pic 3 area 1 is that at the base of the threads of either
or both base and shank. Area two is 1/2 way up the thread.
In pic 5 the base material is the stronger. therefore the
threads will strip off the shank.
In pic 6 both base and shank are the same material and
strength so will most likely shear half way up the threads.
If either D2 or A are smaller in area than the thread area
that you've calculated then one other consideration will
come into play when the thing is in place on the plane
and you fiddle with it to make adjustments. If you have to
screw the shank out of the base then at some point the
threaded portion will become the weak link regardless
of your initial calculations.
Myself, I have four large, robust fork ends that will fit over
the standard plates sticking out the Jenny style LG
fittings.
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php?pid=9039
Now you have to get out the ol' calculator and do your own
arithmatic. :-)
Clif
"You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make
it true. You may have to work for it, however."~ Richard Bach
Mike,
The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or
tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is
the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important
- the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given
in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry
obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional (in square inches).
Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only
being as strong as its weakest link.
Bill C.
Message 39
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:
> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its
> ugly head.
Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering
options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only
firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the
time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.
Owen
Message 40
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
Sorry Owen, I meant that to be tongue in cheek but I think it came out too
emphatic. And thank you for the additional reference site too.
We have seen people usually have a strong preference for Red or Blue, I have
found in a round about way that most people whose first experience with
welding was in school are Blue people because Blue makes schools an offer that
Red cannot compete with, its that simple, in almost any application people
prefer the tools they were taught with; good marketing.
I agree that good research is important before any major purchase. Sort of
like plasma cutters, after investigating what was the best for our needs we
decided we cannot afford it (yet)(and its not Red), there was just no sense in
buying anything less.
This is truly like learning to play a piano; the concept is simple enough
but to master it takes years of practice, you can do it well if you take a class
and practice a lot.
Regards, Chrissi
CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware
www.CozyGirrrl.com
Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo
Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details
==============================
If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires
we fill out a form you will not hear from us.
Please do not make your spam problem ours.
In a message dated 10/29/2008 9:21:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
owen5819@comcast.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote:
> AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its
> ugly head.
Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering
options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only
firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the
time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net.
Owen
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)
Message 41
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start, meaning you touch the tungston
tip to the metal you are welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because
it contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the weld. Also they
don't have a built in gas solinoid for the argon, you turn on the gas, weld,
then turn off the gas, very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to turn
it off.
I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup, it's cheap and the most versitile
tool in your shop. But if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for
$600 Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it is High frequency
start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100% duty, and 180 amp 80%. You should
be able to get the same rig in the states for $350 new.
Charley
--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
> From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
> <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
> experience with any of those kits that will convert your
> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the
> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
>
> Jim Ash
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >
> <owen5819@comcast.net>
> >
> >Jim Ash wrote:
> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.
> Maybe next April.
> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They
> both are supposed to
> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal
> Arc 185TSW in
> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low
> end, where we
> >would be working. Can't verify that from
> experience, as I keep trying to
> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get
> there.
> >
> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and
> ask Ernie
> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better
> model might come along
> >by then, and he's likely to know.
> >
> >Owen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
Message 42
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
The following may supply your answer (from "Mechanic's Toolbox,
www.sacskyranch.com):
"If you are using "high strength" bolts in tension (pulling the bolt
lengthwise) then one needs a "high strength" nut to prevent stripping of the
nut threads.
Good Design Practice is to have a sufficiently strong nut so that the first
failure is a broken bolt and not a stripped thread. A broken bolt is
relatively easy to notice and replace. A stripped thread occurs at the first
thread where the stress is highest and progresses along the thread leading
to complete failure. The bolt may remain in place unnoticed in a weakened
state.
When the bolt is in tension the threads are in shear. To meet the above
requirement the nut's shear strength should be equal to the bolts shear
strength (same material).
Sometimes this is not possible, such as when threading into a tapped hole
and this is where Thread Engagement Length becomes important. More engaged
threads mean more shear stress area to take the load. So our second Good
Design Practice is that the "length of engagement should be long enough that
thread failure will not occur before the bolt breaks."
Generally, bolts can only withstand half as much shear as tension. This
means that the thread shear area needs to be at least double the bolt's
tensile stress area. Minimum Engagement Length is then the length of
engagement that the shear area is twice the bolts tensile stress area.
Length of Engagement works up to a point. At some point more engagement
doesn't increase shear strength because shear stress is not evenly
distributed in the nut. The first threads take most of the load. Adding
extra engagement may not significantly increase the load capacity."
As you probably know, when using a threaded rod & tube, you would measure
back .75"-1" and drill a "sight hole" in the tube. This way you know that
your threaded rod is at least as deep as the sight hole.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Jack et al.,
Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some
other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and
experience that will help me answer them.
Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits
into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on
Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage
is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet
may be from a Cub.
My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without
causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression
loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as
long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads
of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do
side loads become an issue?
Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does
anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be
unscrewed?
I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit
more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree.
Thanks,
Jeff
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