---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 10/29/08: 42 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:43 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Bill Church) 2. 03:24 AM - Re: aileron travel (HelsperSew@aol.com) 3. 03:38 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (HelsperSew@aol.com) 4. 04:31 AM - Re: aileron travel (Phillips, Jack) 5. 06:18 AM - shaping foam (Oscar Zuniga) 6. 06:26 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash) 7. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds (HelsperSew@aol.com) 8. 08:11 AM - Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez) 9. 08:35 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 10. 08:45 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Phillips, Jack) 11. 09:04 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Kirk Huizenga) 12. 09:21 AM - Re: Learning to weld (Jim Ash) 13. 09:27 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez) 14. 09:33 AM - Chrissi's welding notes, advice (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 15. 09:35 AM - Re: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh (shad bell) 16. 09:38 AM - how the heck do you rib stitch anyway ??????????? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 17. 09:47 AM - Re: Lift struts (Owen Davies) 18. 10:17 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Phillips, Jack) 19. 10:48 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash) 20. 10:52 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez) 21. 11:02 AM - Re: Re: Lift Struts (Ken Chambers) 22. 11:05 AM - Re: Lift struts (Bill Church) 23. 11:13 AM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 24. 11:48 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Jeff Boatright) 25. 11:52 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Owen Davies) 26. 12:05 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Bill Church) 27. 12:17 PM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jeff Boatright) 28. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 29. 01:37 PM - Normalizing thin tube tig welds (JERRY GROGAN) 30. 04:05 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 31. 04:16 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (HelsperSew@aol.com) 32. 04:41 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 33. 04:43 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash) 34. 04:45 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez) 35. 04:49 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Michael Perez) 36. 04:50 PM - Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds (Jim Ash) 37. 05:05 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash) 38. 07:19 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Clif Dawson) 39. 07:20 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Owen Davies) 40. 08:32 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (CozyGirrrl@aol.com) 41. 09:24 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (charles loomis) 42. 11:03 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Gary Boothe) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:43:42 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld From: "Bill Church" For those curious about TIG welding of 4130, here is a link with some useful information (including recommended filler rods, and whether normalization is required for thin walled tubing welds): http://home.hiwaay.net/~langford/sportair/ Bill C. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210924#210924 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:24:36 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron travel Richard, Congrats on the milestone. How 'bout some pictures? Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:57 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Bill, I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WEL L worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you hav e instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too wa s an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff . BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites , no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 04:31:54 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron travel From: "Phillips, Jack" Hi Richard, Aileron travel should be able to go all the way down till the hinges bottom out. In actuality, at least in my Pietenpol, the limiting factor is the stick hitting my thigh, but it's pretty close to maximum deflection of the aileron. I remember Valparaiso, Indiana. Mike Cuy and I stopped there for fuel on our way to Brodhead in 2005. Nice friendly airport, and as I recall they served hotdogs for pilots flying ot OSH (or Brodhead) Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:29 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: aileron travel Well today was another milestone day for my project. I have both ailerons mated to the wings using aluminum piano hinges. I did a lot of checking and rechecking to make sure everything was lined up properly before I started drilling. Everything worked out great! Everything is in line and the hinges work freely. It was very satisfying to slide the hinge pins back in and have everything fit. Right now I have the hinges mounted with some temporary pan head screws with washers. There seems to be plenty of clearance when I move the ailerons to the bottom of their travel. I was wondering though what the typical down travel is on the ailerons? Right now with the thicker headed temporary screws I am getting about 3 3/4 inches. Richard Schreiber In cold Valparaiso Indiana lmforge@earthlink.net _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:18:46 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: shaping foam Do NOT hot-wire urethane foams! Polyisocyanurate = cyanide! It's OK to hot-wire polystyrene though. What I did to create shapes was to take a block of wood that I could hold in my hand, scribe the desired shape on the end with a marker or pencil, and cut the shape out of the block with a bandsaw (stand the block on end). That shape could be either the leading edge or trailing edge of a streamline (you'd be making those pieces separately and sandwiching your round tube between them). A round recess is easily sanded into the foam by wrapping a piece of dowel or PVC pipe with sandpaper, to create the recess to receive your round strut. With the shape cut out of the block, I glued coarse grit sandpaper into the recess in the block with contact cement and then I had a hand sanding block that I could run up and down the rough-shaped edge and form it to final shape. That's how I did the edges of all the tail surfaces on the Squirrel, pretty quick and pretty easy. I used the roll sandpaper that is used on floor sanding machines... very coarse grit but you can pick your grit according to how much you have to hog off. And on a different subject, not trying to create a political controversy here, but wouldn't it be cool if Sarah Palin showed up at OSH next year, stumbled onto the 80th anniversary gathering, and asked for a ride in a Piet? Any takers? Mikeee-? I'll bet she'd even be game for a flour bombing run ;o) Oscar Zuniga, diving for my foxhole now... Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:48 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone public yet? I'd like to read it. One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing after TIG welding. People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it. If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln machines. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: HelsperSew@aol.com >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >Bill, > >I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL >worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have >instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and >you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was >an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 square >wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff. >BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also. > >Dan Helsper >Poplar Grove, IL. > >**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, >no registration required and great graphics check it out! >http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:16 AM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Normalizing thin tube tig welds Jim, You can go to Mr. Swaim's web sight _www.tigdepot.net_ (http://www.tigdepot.net) and ask him the question directly about the need (or not) for normalizing thin tube tig welds. I have read in numerous reliable places that it is NOT necessary. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:11:47 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile enough? ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:17 AM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimu m of a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it. They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you a n ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with som eone looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from s omeone who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hour s of frustrating trial and error. All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want t o do on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn ou t then accept the mediocre results as good enough. Regards, Chrissi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ===== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, ashcan@earthlink.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone public yet? I'd like to read it. One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle r oom' for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidi ty controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not nor malizing after TIG welding. People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcu t that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final resul t and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I can do it. If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-idea l environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little Lincoln machines. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: HelsperSew@aol.com >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >Bill, > >I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was WELL >worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you have >instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the world and >you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too was >an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 17 5 square >wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of stuff. >BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good also. > >Dan Helsper >Poplar Grove, IL. > >**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your favorites, >no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! >http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:45:59 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends From: "Phillips, Jack" Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs. I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile enough? _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:04:18 AM PST US From: Kirk Huizenga Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going to productive not artistic!", she retorted. Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building. With still much to learn, do, and enjoy KIrk On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote: > >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also > besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as > rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally > would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding > equipment. < > > Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment > to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light > 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a > good manual / training video available? > > Tom Stinemetze > McPherson, KS. > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 09:21:53 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld Congrats. When I was taking welding classes, we were welding two 8"x2" strips of 3/8" steel together. My wife was taking weaving classes at the same time. We joked about our samples being 'refrigerator magnets', like the artwork your 5-year-old brings home from kindergarden. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: Kirk Huizenga >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 12:01 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Learning to weld > >I did my first welding ever last night. I purchased an Meco Midget off >ebay a while ago and just got some tips, ultra-lightweight hose, rod >for 4130, and TM1000 lens from tinmantech. I hooked up to a friend's >tanks and went to it on some flat .090 and .064 I had sitting around > >I had a great time running some beads and doing a quick 90 degree weld >of two pieces. I took the piece home and shared it with my wife. "I >call it Eggplant Palm. Can you find a place to display it prominently >in the living room?", I asked whimsically. "I thought this was going >to productive not artistic!", she retorted. > >Sometimes its hard to tell the difference in airplane building. > >With still much to learn, do, and enjoy >KIrk > >On Oct 27, 2008, at 3:27 PM, TOM STINEMETZE wrote: > >> >Besides welding is FUN after you get the hang of it. And also >> besides, learning new building skills have been every bit< >as >> rewarding as any other phase of this whole process. I personally >> would not attempt the Piet without knowing< >how/having welding >> equipment. < >> >> Do you have any recommendations as to the proper welding equipment >> to use? I have heard that oxy/acetylene is easier to learn on light >> 4130 type materials. How big should the tip size be, etc. Is there a >> good manual / training video available? >> >> Tom Stinemetze >> McPherson, KS. >> >> > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 09:27:14 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (? ) --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro te: From: Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs , at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb s/.50 or 4,000 lbs. - I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads , rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi. - Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends - I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en ough? - -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________ ____________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 09:33:06 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Chrissi's welding notes, advice From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" As a casual observation and opinion I would take note of anything that Chrissi posts very seriously regarding aircraft hardware, fittings, assemblies, heat treating, welding, and otherwise since last summer at Brodhead I had an enjoyable opportunity to meet her and Randi, as many of you did, but was given a look at what you see below (a Cozy motor mount) fabricated from CG Products, namely Chrissi. Absolutely outstanding craftsmanship and quality. http://www.cozygirrrl.com/aircraftparts.htm ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 09:35:04 AM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Ryan's idea: FORD sponsored Piet gathering for 80th at Oshkosh Can Chevy piets attend? ha ha Shad ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:22 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: how the heck do you rib stitch anyway ??????????? From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Years back when I faced covering my project I knew I would have to learn the art of rib stitching. Turns out a few well-spent sessions at the fabric tent at Oshkosh was all I needed along with some video taping of the instructors showing other people how to do these starter knots and finishing knots. I practiced a few times during the week and finally got the hang of it and as it turned out I loved it ! I would come home after work, turn on my little tv in my single car garage and watch the 5 pm news, 6 pm news, Entertainment Tonight, then some of the Indians game, then the 10 pm news, all while ribsitiching and it was great. Highly recommend wrapping your fingers with masking tape where there are rub points and tightening rawness...works like a charm. Welding is the same way---a mystery, intimidating, something you just want to put off but once you jump in, get taught, get some practice, and get some good welds under your belt it is extreeeeeeeeeeemly satisfying.....until your first takeoff or first severe turbulence:) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:47:31 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Lift struts Among other comments, Leon Stefan wrote: > To the lister who said he flew a > Piet with round tube lift struts with balsa fairings (sorry I dropped > your name), do you happen to know what size and thickness they were? > Does anyone know of a bulk source of cheap balsa wood? (etc.) A guy I used to know built a Heath parasol using round tubing for the lift struts. Don't know the size; in any case, a Piet would need something larger. The interesting part was the fairings: lumberyard blue foam, sanded to shape, wrapped in fiberglass drywall tape, and epoxied. Couldn't have been lighter or stiffer, and it's hard to imagine how it could have been much cheaper. FWIW. Owen ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:17:11 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends From: "Phillips, Jack" These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol, since they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate CG positioning. Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an angle to the chord line). Radial refers to the sperhical bearing. Since the strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in the bearing translates to an axial load in the strut. The other load specified for such pieces is an axial load in the bearing - in other words, a load trying to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in the direction of the bolt axis. Confused??? Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum or steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In your response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (?) --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wrote: From: Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Figure it out. The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts carry very little load on a Pietenpol). Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs, at 5 G's (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel. If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each. To find the tensile load in the strut you've got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by the sine of the angle. Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lbs/.50 or 4,000 lbs. I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine. 5/16" screw threads, rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each. I don't understand your reference to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of the threade portion you could deduce the stress involved. Assuming the diameter is 5/16", the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi. Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , so that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile enough? http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is prohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese " target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List =nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 10:48:27 AM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick. Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative types started making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum than welding. I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of everything they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop. Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece of equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all water-cooled. I've had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino, using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The duty cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me gunshy of even considering anything less than professional-quality equipment. That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster art' and that box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my butt is going to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas torch. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder >and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum of > a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it. >They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an >ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will >NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone >looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this >instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone >who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours >of frustrating trial and error. >All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go >right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to do >on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones >you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out >then accept the mediocre results as good enough. > >Regards, Chrissi > >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware >www.CozyGirrrl.com >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details >===== >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires >we fill out a form you will not hear from us. >Please do not make your spam problem ours. > > >In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >ashcan@earthlink.net writes: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash > >Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone >public yet? I'd like to read it. > >One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of >homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' >for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or >basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite >construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity >controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing >after TIG welding. > >People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time >ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also >enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut >that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the >things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a >professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good >enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result >and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I >can do it. > >If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal >environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but >it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little >Lincoln machines. > >Jim Ash > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: HelsperSew@aol.com >>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops >> >>Bill, >> >>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was >WELL >>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you >have >>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the >world and >>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too >was >>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 >square >>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of >stuff. >>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good >also. >> >>Dan Helsper >>Poplar Grove, IL. >> >>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your >favorites, >>no registration required and great graphics check it out! >>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) > > >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot >5 Travel Deals! >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:52:13 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo rk. I am making my own designed center section wing mounts. With mine, the solid ends-WILL allow adjustment side to side of the center section. (win g tip to wing tip). The fore and aft adjustment will be made at the bottom of the center section struts, at the fuselage. The angle of incidence will be made by adjusting the length of the solid rod ends. --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro te: From: Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends These are spherical rod ends (which I highly recommend for a Pietenpol, sin ce they allow the wing to be repositioned fore and aft to accommodate CG po sitioning.- Straight rod ends will not allow the struts to be at an angle to the chord line).- Radial refers to the sperhical bearing.- Since th e strut is radial to the center of the bearing, a radial load in the bearin g translates to an axial load in the strut.- The other load specified for such pieces is an axial load in the bearing ' in other words, a load try ing to push the spherical bearing out of the rod end in the direction of th e bolt axis.- Confused??? - - Jack Phillips NX899JP From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 12:27 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends - Jack, I am looking at solid, (no swivel bearing) rod ends either aluminum o r steel. There is no reference to radial or axial loads, just tensile. The aluminum are rated at 45,000PSI tensile and the steel around 70,000. In you r response, you state axial load, then say your ends are rated radially. (? ) --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Phillips, Jack wro te: From: Phillips, Jack Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Figure it out.- The lift struts go into the wing panel at just about the middle, so they essentially carry all the lift loads (the cabane struts car ry very little load on a Pietenpol).- Assuming a gross weight of 1200 lbs , at 5 G=92s (ultimate loading) that means the wings must support 6000 lbs, or 3,000 lbs per wing panel.- If the front struts carry 2/3 of the load, they are carrying 2,000 lbs of LIFT each.- To find the tensile load in t he strut you=92ve got to figure the total load is the lift load divided by the sine of the angle.- Assuming your struts are at a 30 degree angle to the horizontal, each front strut will be carrying an axial load of 2,000 lb s/.50 or 4,000 lbs. - I used HMX Rod Ends from Aircraft Spruce for mine.- 5/16=94 screw threads , rated at 5,390 lbs radial load each.- I don=92t understand your referen ce to a 45,000 psi stress, although I guess if you calculate the area of th e threade portion you could deduce the stress involved.- Assuming the dia meter is 5/16=94, the rod ends I used would be good for about 70,000 psi. - Jack Phillips, PE Sr. Manager, Disposable Products Research & Development Cardinal Health Clinical Technologies & Services Creedmoor, NC (919) 528-5212 From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:11 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends - I am wondering from a tensile strength view, what rod ends are adequate for the lift struts and wing struts. I see them rated from about 45,000PSI on up. I see the bolt holes in the steel fittings are in the order of 1/4" , s o that tells me the rod end can only be so big. Is the 45,000PSI tensile en ough?-- -http://www.matronics.com/contribution -___________________ ______________________________ -This message is for the designated recipi ent only and may contain privileged, proprietaryor otherwise private inform ation. If you have received it in error, please notify the senderimmediatel -Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese - -" target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://www.ma tronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=nofollow>http://forums.matronics.com blank rel=nofollow>http://www.matronics.com/contribution - - -http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-Listhttp://forums.matronic s.comhttp://www.matronics.com/contribution -_____________________________ ____________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 11:02:16 AM PST US From: "Ken Chambers" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Lift Struts Hey Doug This sounds like a pretty good way to go. Can you tell us more about the steel v trailing edge you welded on to the lift struts. Ken in Austin, making hundreds of gussets for wing ribs. On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:17 PM, Catdesigns wrote: > > >From the archives > > Match: #1 > Message: #15540 > From: Doug413(at)aol.com > Date: Nov 19, 2001 > Subject: Re: tube drag > > In a message dated 11/18/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time, > robertsjunk(at)hotmail.com writes: > > > I was working in the garage and was thinking about the cost of > streamlined struts and wondered what would be the horsepower penalty for > going with round struts. So after about an hour looking through my Fluid > Dynamics book, of which I haven't looked at in 10 years, I calculated the > drag. My assumptions were 100mph at standard pressure and temperature (half > the battle was figuring out the density of air) of a 1" diameter tube and > got about 0.15 horsepower per foot of length. The coefficient of drag for a > eliptical tube, which is close to a streamlined tube, was about 1/3 of > that. The sort-of Pietenpol-like aircraft that I'm working on has 25' of > tube and would take almost 4 HP to push a round tube through the air. The > streamlined tube would save about 2 or 3 horsepower. Just thought y'all > would be interested and please don't hold me to the calculations. > > Robert Haines > Murphysboro, Illinois > > > Robert, I used 1 1/4 dia x .049 wall round tubing and skip welded a steel V > shaped trailing edge to it. 102 hours on the ship now without jury struts; > works great. I got this idea from a Buckeye Pietenpol Newsletter years ago. > > Doug Bryant > > -------- > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=210841#210841 > > -- Ken Chambers 512-796-1798 ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 11:05:00 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Lift struts For what it's worth, according to drawings published in a 1987 edition of the Experimenter, The Heath LN Parasol (with the N-braced wings) apparently used 1 1/8" x .035" (SAE 1015) tubing for the front and rear lift struts, and 1 1/4" x .035" for the center (diagonal) strut. Remember, though, that the Heath is a much smaller plane than the Pietenpol (this fact becomes really apparent if you happen to walk up to Chris Price's Heath that is based at Brodhead. That is a tiny airplane) Bill C. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 11:13:01 AM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Gee, welding sure sounds like it is work and may take some skill. That makes the deal I just did sound great. In exchange for a $10 military surplus maid cart (you know the maids push them around with a trash bag on one side and a dirty linnen bag on the other with cleaning supplies and sheets in the middle) hanger neigbors Steve and Freda (mentioned by Oscar earlier) are going to practice welding on a swiveling jack onto my old plymouth pickup bed trailer. The weld does not have to be particularly pretty (or pretty at all) so it will be great for Steve to learn/practice welding. The price is right for me also. BTW, Oscar is getting too snooty for his own good. He turned down one of these maid carts. Said he does not want to clutter up his hangers (yes two hangers!) on he keeps his Peit in and one he is building anouther plane in. Blue skies Steve D ----- Original Message ----- From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > > I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick. Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the > administrative types started making noises that they'd rather have > a food service curriculum than welding. I backed off focusing on > the certs and practiced all kinds of everything they had. Never > got to play with the plasma torch or weld plastic (they didn't > have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop. > > Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in > that class is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to > work on a lesser piece of equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG > machines I used were all water-cooled. I've had my reservations > about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little quality > time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job > welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El- > Camino, using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have > known better. The duty cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get > about 2" of good bead then it would kick off on a thermal check. > That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back or > burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and > jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a > MIG machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That > job made me gunshy of even considering anything less than > professional-quality equip! > ment. > > That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. > > Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. > It's why a have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted > sizes here. Granted I haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll > have lots of little 'cluster art' and that box will be long empty > before I consider welding up anything my butt is going to fly > behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas > torch. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > >From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com > >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air > workshops> > >The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the > homebuilder > >and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go > take a minimum of > > a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize > yourself with it. > >They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will > make you an > >ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something > you will > >NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but > also with someone > >looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say > "try this > >instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in > technique from someone > >who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster > than many hours > >of frustrating trial and error. > >All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of > course go > >right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what > you want to do > >on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that > simulate the ones > >you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they > will turn out > >then accept the mediocre results as good enough. > > > >Regards, Chrissi > > > >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware > >www.CozyGirrrl.com > >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo > >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details > >===== > >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires > >we fill out a form you will not hear from us. > >Please do not make your spam problem ours. > > > > > >In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, > > >ashcan@earthlink.net writes: > > > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash < > > > >Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone > >public yet? I'd like to read it. > > > >One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of > >homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' > >for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage or > >basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite > >construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity > >controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing > >after TIG welding. > > > >People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time > >ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also > >enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut > >that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most of the > >things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hiring a > >professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm good > >enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result > >and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good as I > >can do it. > > > >If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal > >environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but > >it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those little > >Lincoln machines. > > > >Jim Ash > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >>From: HelsperSew@aol.com > >>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM > >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >> > >>Bill, > >> > >>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was > >WELL > >>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and > >>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you > >have > >>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the > >world and > >>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he too > >was > >>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I > >>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 > >square > >>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of > >stuff. > >>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good > >also. > >> > >>Dan Helsper > >>Poplar Grove, IL. > >> > >>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your > >favorites, > >>no registration required and great graphics check it out! > >>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > >5 Travel Deals! > >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 11:48:52 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jack et al., Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and experience that will help me answer them. Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet may be from a Cub. My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do side loads become an issue? Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be unscrewed? I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:34 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Jim Ash wrote: > That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there. When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along by then, and he's likely to know. Owen ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 12:05:59 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Mike, The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lower tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area than steel, with the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry the same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference will be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the aluminum one. If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fittings out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). My main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load, provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-sectional area is practical is another question. Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will work. ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 12:17:59 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Fess up Oscar, what's the the other plane you're building? Enquiring minds... ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 12:39:04 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Dear Jim, Contact TIGdepot.net and he'll fix you right up with a very nice compact water cooled TIG handpiece with a flexible head and 12 or 25 ft hoses and adapter. All the consumables are the same as the handpiece that comes with the welder. The added bonus is that the three flex tubes coming out of it are v ery flexible compared to the regular single cable, this means much less fatigue and easier maneuverability... it changed my life! For the kind of welding you would be doing (up to 1/8") all you need is a 5 gallon bucket of water and a fountain pump from Harbor Freight. All you will get is a dribble (with 25 ft hoses that's all you will get). I do a lot of production welding with this setup and thin goatskin gloves and never notice the handpiece getting warm. Have fun, Chrissi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ===== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 12:49:48 P.M. Central Daylight Time, ashcan@earthlink.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash I went to welding classe a couple nights a week for three years. Certified stick. Was working on the MIG cert and TIG certs when the administrative ty pes started making noises that they'd rather have a food service curriculum tha n welding. I backed off focusing on the certs and practiced all kinds of everything they had. Never got to play with the plasma torch or weld plasti c (they didn't have a plastic rig), but did everything else available in the shop. Part of my problem with having access to the really nice toys in that class is that it's emotionally harder to accept having to work on a lesser piece of equipment at home. Specifically, the TIG machines I used were all water-cooled. I've had my reservations about air-cooled machines, but if I got to spend a little quality time with one I imagine I'd get over it. I did a nightmare job welding replacement floor panels into a friend's mid-70's El-Camino, using a cheapie MIG welder he borrowed. I should have known better. The dut y cycle on it was about .005 percent. I'd get about 2" of good bead then it w ould kick off on a thermal check. That was when the feed wasn't so irregular it was bucking back or burning back up into the nozzle. I spent more time fighting and jury-rigging that machine than welding. I can certainly set up a MIG machine, but that little monster was the devil incarnate. That job made me gunshy of even considering anything less than professional-quality equipment. That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. Your point about practice is well-taken and sound advice to all. It's why a have a box full of junk 4130 short cuts of assorted sizes here. Granted I haven't welded any 4130 in a while, but I'll have lots of little 'cluster a rt' and that box will be long empty before I consider welding up anything my bu tt is going to fly behind, regardless of whether it's with a TIG machine or a gas torch. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 11:34 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >The small Lincoln machines were designed specifically for the homebuilder >and are great to use, by all means "pick one up" but please go take a minimum of > a 6 week adult ed TIG welding class after you familiarize yourself with it. >They may not teach you any earth shattering epiphanies that will make you an >ace TIG welder overnight but they will force you to do something you will >NEVER do at home... PRACTICE, hour after hour of practice but also with someone >looking over your shoulder that has the good judgement to say "try this >instead of what you are doing now". Its the adjustments in technique from someone >who knows that will help turn you into a welder a lot faster than many hours >of frustrating trial and error. >All too often we will buy a tool with a project in mind and of course go >right into it producing predictably horrid results. Practice what you want to do >on some non critical materials, set up practice welds that simulate the ones >you want to do. Don't jump into your project parts hoping they will turn out >then accept the mediocre results as good enough. > >Regards, Chrissi > >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware >www.CozyGirrrl.com >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details >===== >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires >we fill out a form you will not hear from us. >Please do not make your spam problem ours. > > >In a message dated 10/29/2008 8:28:25 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >ashcan@earthlink.net writes: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Jim Ash > >Do you know if the AWS spec on welding 4130 tubing they talk about has gone >public yet? I'd like to read it. > >One of my concerns is that the tolerances on certain technical aspects of >homebuilding are (in my opinion) too tight to allow the necessary 'wiggle room' >for an amateur working under less than ideal conditions in their garage o r >basement (or under a tarp in the yard somewhere). Although composite >construction comes to mind first (mixing proportions, temperature and humidity >controls, practical cleanliness), I'm talking the specific point of not normalizing >after TIG welding. > >People who get paid to do something generally try to minimize the work/time >ratio, being that time is money for them. As an amateur who happens to also >enjoy the process, I'm more inclined to take the extra time and not shortcut >that last optional step if there is one. It is my opinion that for most o f the >things I do around the house, I'm better off doing them myself than hirin g a >professional. Not because I'm better at it; I'm probably not. But I'm goo d >enough to come close, and I'm more personally interested in the final result >and more willing to expend the extra effort to see it gets done as good a s I >can do it. > >If the AWS spec is 'tolerant' enough of the TIG process in a less-than-ideal >environment to not require normalizing, Ill back off. I do like my gas, but >it might be enough to put me over the edge and pick up one of those littl e >Lincoln machines. > >Jim Ash > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: HelsperSew@aol.com >>Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:38 AM >>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops >> >>Bill, >> >>I also attended a TIG welding Sport Air EAA workshop at Griffin. It was >WELL >>worth every penny and more. They give you the perfect mix of theory and >>practice. It is all spoon-fed to you right there. The beauty is that you >have >>instant feedback from the expert. This makes all the difference in the >world and >>you can learn at lightning speed. I had a different instructor but he to o >was >>an expert that welds at Indy. He worked for Lincoln as an instructor. I >>agree with the writer of that piece that you linked. I owned a Lincoln 175 >square >>wave machine for months before that but was just guessing on a lot of >stuff. >>BTW I also attended the Sport Air fabric covering workshop. Very good >also. >> >>Dan Helsper >>Poplar Grove, IL. >> >>**************Play online games for FREE at Games.com! All of your >favorites, >>no registration required and great graphics =93 check it out! >>http://www.games.com?ncid=emlcntusgame00000001) > > >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot >5 Travel Deals! >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:19 PM PST US From: "JERRY GROGAN" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds Jim We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself. Good luck Jerry Grogan Prairie City, IA ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 04:05:45 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly head. If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious entry level welders. In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening, I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary. The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting (it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever. Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a call, they know what EAAers need. Regards, Chrissi & Randi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ============================== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819@comcast.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies Jim Ash wrote: > That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there. When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along by then, and he's likely to know. Owen **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 04:16:38 PM PST US From: HelsperSew@aol.com Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Chrissy, Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 04:41:46 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Dan, The water cooled head is nice but unless you do a lot of high amp long duty cycle welding you can wait awhile, get a heavier glove =) The best news is you bought a darn good welder to begin with. Go Red! We own three Lincoln welders. Regards, Chrissi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ============================== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 6:17:53 P.M. Central Daylight Time, HelsperSew@aol.com writes: Chrissy, Confirmation that I made the right choice buying the 175 square wave machine!! Only thing is now you made me envious of the water-cooled torch head!!! Drat!!! OH well.................. Dan Helsper Poplar Grove, IL. ____________________________________ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. _Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!_ (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 04:43:57 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any experience with any of those kits that will convert your stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the sting out of the price, and gives me a little more versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG. Jim Ash -----Original Message----- >From: Owen Davies >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > > >Jim Ash wrote: >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we >would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there. > >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along >by then, and he's likely to know. > >Owen > > ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 04:45:20 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Well, the nice part about rod ends, they come in all kinds of sizes, shapes, ball configurations, lubricated, solid, etc. If you are worried about the screw length being to short, you may be able to find the same size rod end, just longer on the threads, or one that is threaded up to the head. I would guess, as with nuts and bolts, if you can verify that you have more then 2-4 full threads engaged, you should be OK for the straight tension loads. No clue on side loads. Personally, I plan to use solid rod ends...no ball...and keep them as short as I can, but still have about an inch of adjustment. --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Jeff Boatright wrote: From: Jeff Boatright Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jack et al., Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and experience that will help me answer them. Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet may be from a Cub. My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do side loads become an issue? Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be unscrewed? I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree. Thanks, Jeff ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 04:49:56 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Understood. My delema is this: I can get steel ends or aluminum ends, both solid and both about the same size...1/4" hole, 1/4-20 threads, 1-1/2" long threaded shaft, etc. The steel ends are cheaper, but I am sure they weigh more. They are rated at 75,000 PSI tensil, the aluminum is rated at 45,000. How do I figure if the 45,000 is enough? --- On Wed, 10/29/08, Bill Church wrote: From: Bill Church Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Mike, - The overall-load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing , or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-s ectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per sq uare inch, so the load (in pounds) that -it can carry obviously is depend ant on the cross-sectional area (in square inches). Aluminum, with the lowe r tensile strength would need a bigger cross-sectional area-than steel, w ith the higher strength. You could have two fittings that can both carry th e same load - one made of aluminum and one made of steel. The difference wi ll be that the steel fitting will be smaller in cross-section than the alum inum one. If you have a big enough cross-section, you could probably make the fitting s out of old cheese (not really recommended - it's really trick to weld). M y main point here is that almost any tensile strength will carry the load, provided the cross-sectional area is sufficient. Whether that cross-section al area is practical is another question. Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only bein g as strong as its weakest link. - Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-lis t-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I understand the terms, I was just wondering why the two references in the email...no big deal. I still need to find out what tensile strength will wo rk. ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 04:50:53 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds One of the questions I meant to ask is if I normalize after TIG welding, does it hurt anything besides wasting some of my time? Is there a structural down side to normalizing or is it just the extra work that seems to be the issue? Jim -----Original Message----- >From: JERRY GROGAN >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 4:36 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Pietenpol-List: Normalizing thin tube tig welds > >Jim > >We Tig weld up frames that can take + - 8g's and we don't mormalize. I don't think you could brake them at 20 g's. We do normalize any welds on an engine mount. We found the best way to do it is to do it in the dark and bring the entire joint to just a dull red and then stop and let it cool by itself. > >Good luck >Jerry Grogan >Prairie City, IA > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 05:05:11 PM PST US From: Jim Ash Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops I tend to do a lot of welding off and on, and on a wide variety of stuff. I've got a cast iron job for a friend here right now waiting for me to be allowed out. The rod alone prices out at about $7 a stick, but it's still cheaper for him than having the part remade. I'm not really looking for a unit to get me through an airplane. I'm looking for a unit that I can use for everything, including an airplane. I never really got out of the workshop at SNF this last year; been meaning to just to see the show sometime. Jim -----Original Message----- >From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 6:59 PM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > >AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its ugly >head. >If you manage to get to SNF or Osh, go into the Lincoln tent and ask one of >the guys to run you through the side by side comparison. They have one each >Lincoln and Miller side by side with covers stripped off, they start at the >power switch, go through the unit piece by piece all the way to the plug, by the > time they are done you want to go kick a Miller. This is not a question of >taking their word for it as you can see the differences easily once they are >pointed out. I am talking about the 175, 185, 225 Pro models aimed at serious >entry level welders. >In my welding classes I used a brand new very high end Miller every evening, >I was very happy to get home to my 185 Pro, as always your mileage may vary. >The Lincoln 175-225 Pro models are ideally suited for our thin materials >though I have no problem with heavier materials either. It's very easy starting >(it is a non-issue) and I have had no problems with it ever. >Also TIGdepot.net is your best friend for supplies and answers, give them a >call, they know what EAAers need. > >Regards, Chrissi & Randi > >CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware >www.CozyGirrrl.com >Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo >Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details >============================== >If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires >we fill out a form you will not hear from us. >Please do not make your spam problem ours. > > >In a message dated 10/29/2008 1:53:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, >owen5819@comcast.net writes: > >--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies > >Jim Ash wrote: >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. Maybe next April. >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They both are supposed to >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal Arc 185TSW in >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low end, where we >would be working. Can't verify that from experience, as I keep trying to >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get there. > >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and ask Ernie >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better model might come along >by then, and he's likely to know. > >Owen > > >**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot >5 Travel Deals! >(http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:33 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends I think we need some clarification of what's involved with determining the actual strength of the part. There are four areas in question on this fitting. What has to be determined is which area is the smallest. That's going to be the weakest therefore the one that determines if the part is strong enough. This "part" is made up of two pieces, the shank and the base that's welded or bolted to the strut. As you can see in pic 1 there are four "areas" involved. D1 is the solid portion of the threaded shank, D2 is the shank bit between the threads and head, which may be smaller than D1, A is the area of the head cross section that holds the ball and the thread area is the cross section area of the threads themseves. If either the shank or base is stronger than the other, ie one is steel and the other aluminum, then the weaker is the determining strength. In pic 3 area 1 is that at the base of the threads of either or both base and shank. Area two is 1/2 way up the thread. In pic 5 the base material is the stronger. therefore the threads will strip off the shank. In pic 6 both base and shank are the same material and strength so will most likely shear half way up the threads. If either D2 or A are smaller in area than the thread area that you've calculated then one other consideration will come into play when the thing is in place on the plane and you fiddle with it to make adjustments. If you have to screw the shank out of the base then at some point the threaded portion will become the weak link regardless of your initial calculations. Myself, I have four large, robust fork ends that will fit over the standard plates sticking out the Jenny style LG fittings. http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php?pid=9039 Now you have to get out the ol' calculator and do your own arithmatic. :-) Clif "You are never given a dream without also being given the power to make it true. You may have to work for it, however."~ Richard Bach Mike, The overall load that can be carried by the rod ends (or bolts, or tubing, or bar, or whatever) is dependant on two main factors. One is the tensile strength of the material, but the other is equally important - the cross-sectional area of the member. The tensile strength is given in pounds per square inch, so the load (in pounds) that it can carry obviously is dependant on the cross-sectional (in square inches). Another thing to always keep in mind is the old saw about a chain only being as strong as its weakest link. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 07:20:35 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote: > AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its > ugly head. Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net. Owen ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 08:32:43 PM PST US From: CozyGirrrl@aol.com Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops Sorry Owen, I meant that to be tongue in cheek but I think it came out too emphatic. And thank you for the additional reference site too. We have seen people usually have a strong preference for Red or Blue, I have found in a round about way that most people whose first experience with welding was in school are Blue people because Blue makes schools an offer that Red cannot compete with, its that simple, in almost any application people prefer the tools they were taught with; good marketing. I agree that good research is important before any major purchase. Sort of like plasma cutters, after investigating what was the best for our needs we decided we cannot afford it (yet)(and its not Red), there was just no sense in buying anything less. This is truly like learning to play a piano; the concept is simple enough but to master it takes years of practice, you can do it well if you take a class and practice a lot. Regards, Chrissi CG Products, Custom Aircraft Hardware www.CozyGirrrl.com Cozy Mk-IV RG 13B-turbo Plans #957 Chapter? big pieces done, details, details ============================== If you have a "Spam Blocker" that requires we fill out a form you will not hear from us. Please do not make your spam problem ours. In a message dated 10/29/2008 9:21:54 P.M. Central Daylight Time, owen5819@comcast.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Owen Davies CozyGirrrl@aol.com wrote: > AKKK ! its the Red -VS- Blue (Lincoln / Miller) argument rearing its > ugly head. Good heavens, I hadn't meant to start an argument. Just offering options, to be weighed when the time comes. You'll notice that my only firm recommendation was to get up-to-the-minute information when the time comes from the most reliable source I've found on the Net. Owen **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001) ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 09:24:12 PM PST US From: charles loomis Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start, meaning you touch the tungston tip to the metal you are welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because it contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the weld. Also they don't have a built in gas solinoid for the argon, you turn on the gas, weld, then turn off the gas, very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to turn it off. I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup, it's cheap and the most versitile tool in your shop. But if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for $600 Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it is High frequency start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100% duty, and 180 amp 80%. You should be able to get the same rig in the states for $350 new. Charley --- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash wrote: > From: Jim Ash > Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM > > > While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any > experience with any of those kits that will convert your > stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the > sting out of the price, and gives me a little more > versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG. > > Jim Ash > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Owen Davies > >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM > >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: > Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops > > > > > > >Jim Ash wrote: > >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing. > Maybe next April. > >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They > both are supposed to > >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal > Arc 185TSW in > >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low > end, where we > >would be working. Can't verify that from > experience, as I keep trying to > >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get > there. > > > >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and > ask Ernie > >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better > model might come along > >by then, and he's likely to know. > > > >Owen > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 11:03:14 PM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jeff, The following may supply your answer (from "Mechanic's Toolbox, www.sacskyranch.com): "If you are using "high strength" bolts in tension (pulling the bolt lengthwise) then one needs a "high strength" nut to prevent stripping of the nut threads. Good Design Practice is to have a sufficiently strong nut so that the first failure is a broken bolt and not a stripped thread. A broken bolt is relatively easy to notice and replace. A stripped thread occurs at the first thread where the stress is highest and progresses along the thread leading to complete failure. The bolt may remain in place unnoticed in a weakened state. When the bolt is in tension the threads are in shear. To meet the above requirement the nut's shear strength should be equal to the bolts shear strength (same material). Sometimes this is not possible, such as when threading into a tapped hole and this is where Thread Engagement Length becomes important. More engaged threads mean more shear stress area to take the load. So our second Good Design Practice is that the "length of engagement should be long enough that thread failure will not occur before the bolt breaks." Generally, bolts can only withstand half as much shear as tension. This means that the thread shear area needs to be at least double the bolt's tensile stress area. Minimum Engagement Length is then the length of engagement that the shear area is twice the bolts tensile stress area. Length of Engagement works up to a point. At some point more engagement doesn't increase shear strength because shear stress is not evenly distributed in the nut. The first threads take most of the load. Adding extra engagement may not significantly increase the load capacity." As you probably know, when using a threaded rod & tube, you would measure back .75"-1" and drill a "sight hole" in the tube. This way you know that your threaded rod is at least as deep as the sight hole. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 11:48 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends Jack et al., Thanks for this lively discussion on rod ends. It brings to mind some other questions I have. Possibly some of you guys have knowledge and experience that will help me answer them. Jack, the photo you show of a spherical rod end suggests that it fits into a fork. On my struts, the fuselage end is like what I've seen on Cubs - the rod end is a fork and the attach fitting on the fuselage is a flat tang that fits in that fork. In fact, the struts on my Piet may be from a Cub. My question is, how far out can you unscrew the rod end without causing an safety issue? For purposes of just tension or compression loads exactly along the axis of the rod screw shaft, I assume that as long as all the threads of the female end are in contact with threads of the rod, maximum strength is maintained. However, at what point do side loads become an issue? Assuming that our struts and rod ends are refitted from a Cub, does anyone know if Piper ever set a limit an how far the rod ends can be unscrewed? I ask this because I would like to unscrew the rod ends to permit more dihedral. Our dihedral is currently less than 1 degree. Thanks, Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.