Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 06:13 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (Jim Ash)
2. 06:36 AM - Lift struts (lshutks@webtv.net (Leon Stefan))
3. 09:05 AM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Jeff Boatright)
4. 11:52 AM - aileron stuff (Richard Schreiber)
5. 12:20 PM - Re: aileron stuff (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
6. 01:03 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Richard Schreiber)
7. 01:21 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Michael Silvius)
8. 01:21 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops (charles loomis)
9. 01:24 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Jack T. Textor)
10. 01:27 PM - Re: just plane flyin' (Tom Anderson)
11. 01:31 PM - Re: alternative shelter/lower cost (Tom Anderson)
12. 01:34 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Richard Schreiber)
13. 02:00 PM - Re: aileron stuff (gcardinal@comcast.net)
14. 02:09 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Bill Church)
15. 02:50 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Bill Church)
16. 02:55 PM - Re: aileron stuff (walt)
17. 03:41 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Jack T. Textor)
18. 06:00 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Lagowski Morrow)
19. 07:49 PM - Re: aileron stuff (Richard Schreiber)
20. 07:57 PM - Weight and Balance (dwilson)
21. 08:23 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Jeff Boatright)
22. 08:33 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (Ryan Mueller)
23. 09:17 PM - Re: Adequate rod ends (Ryan Mueller)
24. 11:02 PM - Re: Weight and Balance (walt)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
I'm set (with the exception of a Meco or Smith torch, and maybe a nice set of two-stange
regulators in a weak moment) for oxy-acetylene, but I do agree with
your comments as to its versatility. One of the down sides of it for me is that
I don't have a garage (working on a shop building), and I can't do it in the
basement without (justifiable) complaints from my wife about stinking the whole
house up.
For the record, I have no allegiance to either Red or Blue. I've used both happily.
Besides, I'm registered as an independent.
Some of my requirements for a TIG system are 1)HF - I want a versatile tool. One
that will do aluminum, stainless, and maybe even the exotics if I ever had
a call for it. Not being able to do aluminum or stainless would be a deal-breaker
for me, even for a cheapie add-on system. I can do aluminum and stainless
with my torches now, but it's a bit of a pain and requires more finess (and more
flux). 2) Foot-pedal control. Being able to adjust my heat on the fly is a
big deal for me with a TIG setup. If I have to stop a good pass to fiddle with
some knobs, I might as well not bother at all. 3) Pre- and Post- flow control.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised the add-ons don't have a solenoid valve, but
I guess I was taking it for granted they did.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: charles loomis <rameses32@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Oct 30, 2008 12:23 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>
>
>I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start, meaning you touch the tungston
tip to the metal you are welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because
it contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the weld. Also they
don't have a built in gas solinoid for the argon, you turn on the gas, weld,
then turn off the gas, very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to
turn it off.
>
>I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup, it's cheap and the most versitile
tool in your shop. But if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for
$600 Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it is High frequency
start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100% duty, and 180 amp 80%. You
should be able to get the same rig in the states for $350 new.
>
>Charley
>
>
>--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>> From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
>> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
>> <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>>
>> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
>> experience with any of those kits that will convert your
>> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some of the
>> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
>> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
>>
>> Jim Ash
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
>> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
>> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
>> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
>> >
>> <owen5819@comcast.net>
>> >
>> >Jim Ash wrote:
>> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are enticing.
>> Maybe next April.
>> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents. They
>> both are supposed to
>> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage; the Thermal
>> Arc 185TSW in
>> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at the low
>> end, where we
>> >would be working. Can't verify that from
>> experience, as I keep trying to
>> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never quite get
>> there.
>> >
>> >When the time comes, go to sci.engr.joining.welding and
>> ask Ernie
>> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A better
>> model might come along
>> >by then, and he's likely to know.
>> >
>> >Owen
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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Thanks to all who replied to my question about round strut size fairings
etc. The bad news is that having my water well overhauled did brake the
bank, so my buying trip is off for a while. Since it is now cold weather
I'll probably hold off until next spring. I can digest this info for a
while....... Ken--, The post from Doug Bryant was from the past. He sold
his piet several years ago to someone around St. Louis and I doubt if he
watches the list any longer. He and Chuck Ganzer are friends and worked
together on Chucks Piet, so maybe Chuck can give some details. I saw
Dougs struts and it's a good idea what he did. He ran the idea past
several engineers at Beechcraft and they all gave him the thumbs up.
Also they said it was strong enough to not need jury struts, and Doug
did not install them. My only problem with his set up was weight. As the
post reported, the struts were 1 1/4" x .049. Pretty hefty. Then he
added the steel fairing to the back side. I don't know the size or
thickness of the steel he used. As i recall the sides were around 1 1/2
in. so he would have taken a piece of 3'' flat to a shop and had it bent
into a V then every few inches, ran a weld as he welded it to a a strut.
Since I'm using the Model A, I have become a stickler for light weight.
I was planing to brig a caliper to Brodhead and measure the thickness of
the original strut material used on the Alan Rudolph Piet, but forgot to
take it. Has anyone ever micked those struts and know the thickness? I
bought 3/8 turnbuckle forks at B&B for strut adjustment ends. Less than
$2.00 ea. AS&S says they are rated at 20K ea. Should hold an 80k Piet,
right? By the way, neither Chuck or Doug put adjustments on the lower
strut ends and said they never regretted it. Leon S. Airplane and water
well poor in Ks.
Message 3
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job of
explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's
drawing that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the
threaded portion of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
function and experiences all the loads that the strut does, including
side loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it weakens
the overall function of the strut assembly?
Thanks again for all the replies,
Jeff
Message 4
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Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge@earthlink.net
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lmforge@earthlink.net writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I
attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also
included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood
block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and
perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well.
This is
the same method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge
attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges,
mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables
I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more
like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel
tank in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section
is complete. My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with
the guy wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the
straight axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically
that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also
going to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild
it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on
construction. All of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild
all of the
engines at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our
local EAA tech counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding
a
Piet and also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the
restoration of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
_lmforge@earthlink.net_ (mailto:lmforge@earthlink.net)
**************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot
5 Travel Deals!
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make it out of.
I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who does racing tanks.
His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he did was around $500
just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but since I will also burn auto
fuel I am concerned about solvent resistance. When I get time I'll go through
all of the posts to the web site and make a decision, unless someone would like
to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lmforge@earthlink.net
writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge@earthlink.net
Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals!
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
If you are going to do composite you can use vinyl-ester resin as that
is resistant to ethanol now comon in auto fuels
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/cmpages/vinylester.php
on the other hand if you make it out of aluminum you can cut all the
pices yourself and just take them to someone to weld up, should save a
bit on labor cost that way.
Michael
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make
it out of. I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who
does racing tanks. His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he
did was around $500 just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but
since I will also burn auto fuel I am concerned about solvent
resistance. When I get time I'll go through all of the posts to the web
site and make a decision, unless someone would like to chime in now.
Rick
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air |
workshops
With a DC rig you can weld everything but Aluminium. Steel, stainless, brass, and
copper are no problem, but you need AC for aluminium. I never was a fan for
the foot control, doesn't do you much good when welding a fuselage, many times
I only had one foot on the floor so foot control would have useless, they make
a thumb control that I would suggest, if your spending the money for a AC/DC
remote TIG, you might as well spend the extra hundred and get the thumb control.
--- On Fri, 10/31/08, Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
> From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Learning to weld @ Sport Air
workshops
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Friday, October 31, 2008, 12:12 AM
> <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>
> I'm set (with the exception of a Meco or Smith torch,
> and maybe a nice set of two-stange regulators in a weak
> moment) for oxy-acetylene, but I do agree with your comments
> as to its versatility. One of the down sides of it for me is
> that I don't have a garage (working on a shop building),
> and I can't do it in the basement without (justifiable)
> complaints from my wife about stinking the whole house up.
>
> For the record, I have no allegiance to either Red or Blue.
> I've used both happily. Besides, I'm registered as
> an independent.
>
> Some of my requirements for a TIG system are 1)HF - I want
> a versatile tool. One that will do aluminum, stainless, and
> maybe even the exotics if I ever had a call for it. Not
> being able to do aluminum or stainless would be a
> deal-breaker for me, even for a cheapie add-on system. I can
> do aluminum and stainless with my torches now, but it's
> a bit of a pain and requires more finess (and more flux). 2)
> Foot-pedal control. Being able to adjust my heat on the fly
> is a big deal for me with a TIG setup. If I have to stop a
> good pass to fiddle with some knobs, I might as well not
> bother at all. 3) Pre- and Post- flow control. I guess I
> shouldn't be surprised the add-ons don't have a
> solenoid valve, but I guess I was taking it for granted they
> did.
>
> Jim Ash
>
> -----Original Message-----
> >From: charles loomis <rameses32@yahoo.com>
> >Sent: Oct 30, 2008 12:23 AM
> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >
> <rameses32@yahoo.com>
> >
> >I wouldn't recommend them, they are lift start,
> meaning you touch the tungston tip to the metal you are
> welding and lift to start the weld, this is bad because it
> contaminates the tungston and introduces perosity into the
> weld. Also they don't have a built in gas solinoid for
> the argon, you turn on the gas, weld, then turn off the gas,
> very wateful of the gas, espically if you forget to turn it
> off.
> >
> >I still suggest starting with an Oxy welding setup,
> it's cheap and the most versitile tool in your shop. But
> if you must have a TIG, try ebay, I got mine for $600
> Australian, it is only DC so I cannot weld Aluminium, but it
> is High frequency start with a gas solinoid and 140 amp 100%
> duty, and 180 amp 80%. You should be able to get the same
> rig in the states for $350 new.
> >
> >Charley
> >
> >
> >--- On Thu, 10/30/08, Jim Ash
> <ashcan@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Jim Ash <ashcan@earthlink.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List: Re:
> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >> Date: Thursday, October 30, 2008, 10:43 AM
> >> <ashcan@earthlink.net>
> >>
> >> While we're kinda on this, has anybody had any
> >> experience with any of those kits that will
> convert your
> >> stick machine to a TIG machine? It sure takes some
> of the
> >> sting out of the price, and gives me a little more
> >> versatility to be able to do either stick or TIG.
> >>
> >> Jim Ash
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Owen Davies <owen5819@comcast.net>
> >> >Sent: Oct 29, 2008 2:52 PM
> >> >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> >> >Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Pietenpol-List:
> Re:
> >> Learning to weld @ Sport Air workshops
> >> >
> Davies
> >> <owen5819@comcast.net>
> >> >
> >> >Jim Ash wrote:
> >> >> That said, the small Lincoln units are
> enticing.
> >> Maybe next April.
> >> >Yup. Or the Miller or Thermal Arc equivalents.
> They
> >> both are supposed to
> >> >be better than the Lincoln at low amperage;
> the Thermal
> >> Arc 185TSW in
> >> >particular is supposed to be extremely good at
> the low
> >> end, where we
> >> >would be working. Can't verify that from
> >> experience, as I keep trying to
> >> >gather the will to buy a TIG setup and never
> quite get
> >> there.
> >> >
> >> >When the time comes, go to
> sci.engr.joining.welding and
> >> ask Ernie
> >> >Leimkuhler what's best for the purpose. A
> better
> >> model might come along
> >> >by then, and he's likely to know.
> >> >
> >> >Owen
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
Message 9
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Rick,
Rivet one up...
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: just plane flyin' |
Oscar,
Could you comment please on the flight characteristics of a Piet vs. a typical
trike? I figure since your brother has one, you'd be well educated on the differences.
Things I'd like to know are: how do they compare flying in turbulence, their load
capacity, handling, landing/takeoff distances, glide ratio, etc..
I'm going to buy or build one or the other (a Piet or a trike) and intend to tailor
my training around the aircraft itself. Thus, I'm not interested in learing
to fly 3-axis planes if I'm going to end up with a weight-shift trike and
vice-versa.
PM me if you wish.
Thanks,
Tom
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211255#211255
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: alternative shelter/lower cost |
Thanks for passing this along Walt and Mike.
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211257#211257
Message 12
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Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then solder. If
I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early versions. However
I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from vibration after only a few
hours. Anyone with a terne plate or galvanized tank that they made care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
The original fuel tank on NX18235 was riveted and soldered galvanized steel
. A thorough leak check and pressure test when it was new showed it to be l
eak free.
It started leaking=C2-shortly after=C2-we started flying. After about 4
5 hours of use it was leaking at the rate of approximately 1 gallon / hour.
It was pulled and an aluminum tank was made up and taken to a local welder
who did his magic with a TIG unit. The new tank has performed flawlessly
for over 100 hours. No worries with any kind of fuel.
Greg Cardinal
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Schreiber" <lmforge@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 3:34:39 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then solde
r. If I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early versions.
However I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from vibration after
only a few hours. Anyone with a terne plate or galvanized tank that they ma
de care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up=EF=BD
Jack
www.textors.com
======
=======================
==
Message 14
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Maybe if you could provide a sketch or image it might make things a bit more
clear, but I'm going to go ahead and make a couple of assumptions.
I am assuming a set-up just like the one shown in Jack Phillips' photo, with
the exception that your rod end does not have the swivel connection.
It sounds like you are basically asking how much load a 1/4-20 threaded rod
can carry in simple tension.
A threaded rod is not as strong as a solid rod of the same diameter would
be, since there are threads cut (or rolled) into the rod, which leaves a
cross-sectional area less than the solid rod. Experiments have been done to
determine the effective diameter of threaded fasteners - this is the
diameter of a solid rod that would be approximately equal to the threaded
rod. This effective diameter is used to calculate the effective
cross-sectional area of the threaded rod, and is referred to as the Tensile
Stress Area, which is the number used to calculate the maximum load that can
be carried by a threaded fastener. A 1/4-20 thread has a Tensile Stress Area
of 0.0318 square inches, whereas a solid rod 1/4" in diameter would have an
area of 0.049 square inches. We will use 0.0318 for our calculations.
Using the only data we have been supplied with (Tensile Strength - no
indication whether this is Ultimate (breaking) or Yield (deforming)), we can
easily compute the maximum loading for each material.
Maximum Load = Tensile Strength x Tensile Stress Area
For the Steel rod:
Max Load = 75,000 x 0.0318 = 2385 lb.
For the Aluminum rod:
Max Load = 45,000 x 0.0318 = 1431 lb.
If we recall Jack's explanation of the loads carried by the lift struts of
the Pietenpol in flight, we remember that we are looking for a load carrying
capacity of about 4000 lb. Based on these numbers we see that with the
Aluminum rod ends, your lift struts would likely fail at less than 2 G's of
loading (a sharp banked turn or a bit of turbulence). With the Steel rod
ends the lift struts will fail at about 3 G's.
If I've interpreted your question correctly, I would say neither of the two
are a good choice. The 1/4-20 size is not big enough.
If we do the calculation the normal way - (that is, we are given the loading
and the material strength, and from that we determine the fastener size) we
see the following:
for the Steel rod:
minimum Tensile Stress Area required = 4000 lb/75,000 psi = 0.053 sq in
from charts (or calculations using formulae) we see that 5/16-18 thread has
Tensile Stress area of 0.0524 and 5/16-24 thread has a value of 0.058 .
Either of these should do the job - move up one size to 5/16".
for the Aluminum rod:
minimum Tensile Stress Area required = 4000 lb/45,000 psi = 0.089 sq in
from charts we see that 3/8-24 thread has Tensile Stress area of 0.088
(close enough) and 7/16-14 thread has a value of 0.093 while 7/16-20 thread
has a value of 0.119 .
You will need to substantially increase the rod size to use aluminum rods.
Of course, this may all be an oversimplification.
As is often the case, the perceived weight savings by using aluminum becomes
much smaller when the sizes need to be increased to account for the reduced
strength. I can't imagine there is a real significant weight savings to be
had by using aluminum rather than steel in this application. Personally, I
don't care for aluminum fasteners (except maybe rivets). I would go for the
5/16-24 size - which just happens to be the size that Jack said he used on
his struts.
Hope I'm not way off track here.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2008 7:50 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Understood. My delema is this: I can get steel ends or aluminum ends, both
solid and both about the same size...1/4" hole, 1/4-20 threads, 1-1/2" long
threaded shaft, etc. The steel ends are cheaper, but I am sure they weigh
more. They are rated at 75,000 PSI tensil, the aluminum is rated at 45,000.
How do I figure if the 45,000 is enough?
Message 15
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
This is kind of a difficult question to answer. There are a lot of unknowns
here:
What is the diameter of the strut end?
What material is the strut end made of?
How long is the strut end in it's fully retracted position, and how long in
it's fully extended position?
For the most part, when in flight, lift struts are loaded in tension. They
can go into compression when experiencing turbulence, or a rough landing.
And of course, they are loaded in compression when the plane is at rest, but
that loading is pretty minimal (just the static weight of the wings).
If the rod end is loaded in simple tension, it doesn't really matter how
much is unscrewed (as long as the threads are fully engaged). The only
condition that I can think of where it would make a difference how much the
threaded portion is unscrewed would be if the rod end was subjected to
bending loads (sideways). Then you get an increased bending moment - but I'm
not sure how that would occur, and if it did, how much loading it would be.
Bill C.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
Boatright
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
Guys,
Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job of
explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's drawing
that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the threaded portion
of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
function and experiences all the loads that the strut does, including side
loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it weakens the overall
function of the strut assembly?
Thanks again for all the replies,
Jeff
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick,
I played hell trying to find terne plate. And I live in a place of old
industry.
Some of the old distributors had old rolls of the stuff in the rafters,
but it was too thin.
But by advise from my building Mentor, don't use galvanized.
He said it seems to handle right, but later on it cracks.
I finally ended up with aluminum.
Cut out all the shapes and held them together by drilling tiny holes
about 1/8" from the edge at places about 4" apart along the seam. Looped
a piece of thin wire thru and twisted.
Then I tacked every few inches along the whole tank, and removed the
wire twists.
Then finished TIG welding.
Of course when I tested the tank for leaks, it was like a watering can
sprinkler. (I had never TIG'ed before)
So I took it to my friend Don (here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeyWuY2Gmpg in the front seat of my
Piet)
And being the great welder that he is,,,re TIG'ed all the seams to
create 2 flawless tanks.
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:34 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Jack,
I thought of doing that also. Make it out of terne plate, rivet, then
solder. If I remember correctly, that is what Bernard did on the early
versions. However I do recall some have had trouble with leaks from
vibration after only a few hours. Anyone with a terne plate or
galvanized tank that they made care to comment?
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack T. Textor
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: 10/30/2008 3:28:19 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
Rivet one up.
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 17
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Rick,
On my RV8 I used ProSeal at all the joints and rivets, never had a
problem. I think Van's sells an improved product today.
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 18
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Rick, My tank is a Cub tank built by a guy in Cheboygan, Mich. He
charged me $140. He has the patterns to make more. If you want I'll ask
him if he wants to make anymore.
My tank is mounted behind the firewall and holds ~12.6 gallons.
Jim Lagowski, in N.W. Mich
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make
it out of. I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who
does racing tanks. His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he
did was around $500 just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but
since I will also burn auto fuel I am concerned about solvent
resistance. When I get time I'll go through all of the posts to the web
site and make a decision, unless someone would like to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
lmforge@earthlink.net writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's
request I attached some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I
have also included a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I
used the hardwood block and tube method to insure the holes were aligned
properly and perpendicular. This idea came from Chris Tracy on his web
site. It worked well. This is the same method I used to drill all of the
holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron
hinges, mount the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls
and cables I have mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still
need to do some more like the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I
am going to put the fuel tank in the front and that still needs to be
made. The wing center section is complete. My empennage is complete and
has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy wires for a test fit. Next
on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but
realistically that might be a stretch, depending on how much I get done
this winter. I am also going to use a corvair engine. I have the core,
but I still need to rebuild it. Around Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's
in various stages on construction. All of them will be using Corvair
power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines at the same time in the
same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech counselor. The
great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and also doing a
corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration of the
Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge@earthlink.net
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
10/30/2008 7:59 AM
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: aileron stuff |
Thanks Jim, that would be great! Do you have any dimensions and photos that you
could share? Walt and Greg I thought you were the ones that had problems with
the riveted and soldered tanks, which is why I did not want to go that route.
When I checked if there was anyone locally that could weld up an aluminum that
I fabricated, I was given the name of the guy that wants $500.
Rick Schreiber
----- Original Message -----
From: Lagowski Morrow
Sent: 10/30/2008 8:05:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick, My tank is a Cub tank built by a guy in Cheboygan, Mich. He charged me $140.
He has the patterns to make more. If you want I'll ask him if he wants to
make anymore.
My tank is mounted behind the firewall and holds ~12.6 gallons.
Jim Lagowski, in N.W. Mich
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Schreiber
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 4:03 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Thanks John.
I'd like to work on my tank next but I'm trying to decide what to make it out of.
I was going to go with aluminium.We have a local welder who does racing tanks.
His prices were reasonable, but the last Piet tank he did was around $500
just for labor! I would like to go with glass, but since I will also burn auto
fuel I am concerned about solvent resistance. When I get time I'll go through
all of the posts to the web site and make a decision, unless someone would like
to chime in now.
Rick
----- Original Message -----
From:
Sent: 10/30/2008 2:28:16 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: aileron stuff
Rick,
The wings look a bit different from when I saw them, really nice.
John
In a message dated 10/30/2008 2:54:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, lmforge@earthlink.net
writes:
Well guys here is a status report on my project. Per Dan Helsper's request I attached
some photos of my wing with the aileron attached. I have also included
a photo of drilling the aileron horn attachment. I used the hardwood block and
tube method to insure the holes were aligned properly and perpendicular. This
idea came from Chris Tracy on his web site. It worked well. This is the same
method I used to drill all of the holes for the aileron hinge attachment screws.
On the wings I still need to put in the nut plates for the aileron hinges, mount
the aileron pulley supports and then run the cable.
The fuselage is pretty well done, including all of the controls and cables I have
mounted the main instruments in the IP, but still need to do some more like
the engine gages, throttle, carb heat etc.. I am going to put the fuel tank
in the front and that still needs to be made. The wing center section is complete.
My empennage is complete and has been fitted to the fuselage with the guy
wires for a test fit. Next on the agenda is the tail wheel and the straight
axle main gear.
I'd like to have my Piet done for the 80th in Oshkosh, but realistically that might
be a stretch, depending on how much I get done this winter. I am also going
to use a corvair engine. I have the core, but I still need to rebuild it. Around
Valparaiso (VPZ) we have 4 Piet's in various stages on construction. All
of them will be using Corvair power. The plan is to rebuild all of the engines
at the same time in the same location with the assistance of our local EAA tech
counselor. The great thing is the tech counselor is rebuilding a Piet and
also doing a corvair conversion. He is also the person who did the restoration
of the Allison engines for the Glacier Girl P-38 a few years ago.
Rick Schreiber
lmforge@earthlink.net
href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c
AVG - 270.8.5/1756 - Release Date: 10/30/2008 7:59 AM
Message 20
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| Subject: | Weight and Balance |
Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance calculations
for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to tailwheel is 161.5
inches. You can contact my email... dwilson@ci.austin.mn.us
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211320#211320
Message 21
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| Subject: | Adequate rod ends |
Bill,
Yes, the bending loads are what I am talking about. As to how that
would occur, my assumption is that it would occur just like it does
for the rest of the strut. For instance, it's often been said that
jury struts are needed to keep the main struts from "collapsing" or
phrases to that effect. I've always assumed that such a "collapse" is
due to bending, or side, loads. If this is the case for struts, then
it must be the case for the shaft of the rod end, since it's simply
part of the strut, only skinnier and with all those stress risers
(a.k.a, "threads"). When the rod is screwed in all the way, it's
shaft is not acting as a length of strut. As it is unscrewed, the
shaft is exposed to more and more bending loads the more its length
is exposed.
I agree that the dimensions you list are needed to make a
determination. One time-honored shortcut, though, is to assume that
if the part is from a certified airplane (for example, a Cub
strut/rod end assembly), then there may already be data out there
that will answer this question. That's why in my earlier, and poorly
written, post, I asked if anyone knew how far out a Cub rod end could
be unscrewed. Maybe Piper determined that 1 inch is OK and 2 inches
is not. Of course, even THAT shortcut only works if the Piper and
Pietenpol geometries (including jury strut locale, overall lift strut
length, etc.) are similar.
Thanks again - sorry to take up some much bandwidth on this.
Jeff
>Jeff,
>
>This is kind of a difficult question to answer. There are a lot of
>unknowns here:
>What is the diameter of the strut end?
>What material is the strut end made of?
>How long is the strut end in it's fully retracted position, and how
>long in it's fully extended position?
>
>For the most part, when in flight, lift struts are loaded in
>tension. They can go into compression when experiencing turbulence,
>or a rough landing. And of course, they are loaded in compression
>when the plane is at rest, but that loading is pretty minimal (just
>the static weight of the wings).
>
>If the rod end is loaded in simple tension, it doesn't really matter
>how much is unscrewed (as long as the threads are fully engaged).
>The only condition that I can think of where it would make a
>difference how much the threaded portion is unscrewed would be if
>the rod end was subjected to bending loads (sideways). Then you get
>an increased bending moment - but I'm not sure how that would occur,
>and if it did, how much loading it would be.
>
>Bill C.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
>[<mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com>mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]
>On Behalf Of Jeff Boatright
>
>Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 12:04 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Adequate rod ends
>
>Guys,
>
>Thanks for all of the responses. I see that I have done a poor job
>of explaining my question. I have attached a modification of Clif's
>drawing that shows my concern: As the rod end is unscrewed from the
>threaded portion of the strut, the rod shaft takes on "strut"
>
>function and experiences all the loads that the strut does,
>including side loads. How far out can the rod be unscrewed before it
>weakens the overall function of the strut assembly?
>
>Thanks again for all the replies,
>
>Jeff
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Dan,
Here is a link to the conversation thread where Walt Evans uploaded his
Excel W&B spreadsheets. I think it's around 6 messages down:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=18847&highlight=weight+balance+spreadsheet
He had four different versions for various passenger/fuel configurations.
Walt's Piet is not Model A powered, but it is at least a starting point for
a spreadsheet for yours. I would think that even if there is a Model A
specific spreadsheet out there (I haven't found it yet), if you were to use
it with no changes you are relying on the fact that the fuel tank, radiator,
and other weight stations are the same distance from the datum on their Piet
as on yours. Should they be....probably...but I would still want to measure
mine. Anywho, I would think Walt's spreadsheet(s) could work for you. You
would have to set your own datum, determine the measurements to the stations
for the moments you need to calculate, and replace his figures with yours.
I hope that helps a bit with what you're looking for.
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 9:57 PM, dwilson <marwilson@charter.net> wrote:
>
> Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance
> calculations for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to
> tailwheel is 161.5 inches. You can contact my email...
> dwilson@ci.austin.mn.us
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Re: Adequate rod ends |
Jeff,
I could be wrong on this, but I believe the "collapsing" that the jury
struts eliminate results from negative g-loading that places the struts in
compression. Let's say the Piet is flying through smooth air. The wing is
making lift, and thusly "lifting" the fuselage. The struts would then be in
tension. If you fly through a downdraft and experience negative g's those
struts would now be in compression, and that would be where they are
susceptible to failure. Here is a link to a short article about model
airplanes:
http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/const/v2-4-69.html
I know that they are not the same as a real airplane, but it does simply
explain the idea.
As far as the loads on the strut being the same as the loads on the rod end
fitting....well, they may be transmitted the same but the piece probably
would not react the same. One is a hollow steel/aluminum tube, the other is
a solid metal fitting.
Finally...I posit a situation. The service manual for a J-3 provides rigging
instructions (according to the table of contents). But they may not provide
such specific data as how far out the fork can be unscrewed. They know
exactly how long the strut/fork combination is, because they manufacture it.
They specify a standard set of instructions for rigging the airplane, and if
things need to be adjusted they are relatively minute adjustments. They
don't need to worry about thread engagement on the fork end, because they
are dealing with very small adjustments. Thusly, even if engineering
calculated the minimum thread engagement that may never have made it into
the maintenance manuals, as there was no reason for that to have ever come
into play when rigging a Cub (unless it has some serious issues).
Maybe that would be the case, I don't know. Just throwing that out there. As
you said, even if you could find the data it's for an entirely different
airplane, and you probably shouldn't use that standard without some solid
analysis. Personally I would think one of the preferable things to do in the
situation of a Piet is to look at what others have successfully flown,
preferably for many hours, and choose which of those to emulate. Determine
how long you want your struts to be, and build them so that they have
maximum thread engagement.
Ryan
On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 10:22 PM, Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu> wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Yes, the bending loads are what I am talking about. As to how that would
> occur, my assumption is that it would occur just like it does for the rest
> of the strut. For instance, it's often been said that jury struts are needed
> to keep the main struts from "collapsing" or phrases to that effect. I've
> always assumed that such a "collapse" is due to bending, or side, loads. If
> this is the case for struts, then it must be the case for the shaft of the
> rod end, since it's simply part of the strut, only skinnier and with all
> those stress risers (a.k.a, "threads"). When the rod is screwed in all the
> way, it's shaft is not acting as a length of strut. As it is unscrewed, the
> shaft is exposed to more and more bending loads the more its length is
> exposed.
>
> I agree that the dimensions you list are needed to make a determination.
> One time-honored shortcut, though, is to assume that if the part is from a
> certified airplane (for example, a Cub strut/rod end assembly), then there
> may already be data out there that will answer this question. That's why in
> my earlier, and poorly written, post, I asked if anyone knew how far out a
> Cub rod end could be unscrewed. Maybe Piper determined that 1 inch is OK and
> 2 inches is not. Of course, even THAT shortcut only works if the Piper and
> Pietenpol geometries (including jury strut locale, overall lift strut
> length, etc.) are similar.
>
> Thanks again - sorry to take up some much bandwidth on this.
>
> Jeff
>
Message 24
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| Subject: | Re: Weight and Balance |
Here's some generic ones that I used.
Just fill in the blanks, and delete the blanks that don't pertain.
have fun
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: "dwilson" <marwilson@charter.net>
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 10:57 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Weight and Balance
>
> Greetings! Anyone have an excel spreadsheet for weight and balance
> calculations for a Model A powered Aircamper. Fuselage length firewall to
> tailwheel is 161.5 inches. You can contact my email...
> dwilson@ci.austin.mn.us
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=211320#211320
>
>
>
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