---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/04/08: 30 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:02 AM - Re: built-up spar (Gene Rambo) 2. 06:58 AM - My Sitka supplier (Michael Perez) 3. 07:17 AM - Spars (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 4. 07:46 AM - Re: Spars (Owen Davies) 5. 07:46 AM - Re: My Sitka supplier (Ryan Mueller) 6. 08:16 AM - Re: My Sitka supplier (Michael Perez) 7. 08:57 AM - Re: Spars (Bill Church) 8. 09:28 AM - Re: Spars (Tim Willis) 9. 09:41 AM - Re: Spars (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 10. 10:03 AM - Re: Spars (bike.mike@comcast.net) 11. 10:12 AM - Re: Spars, trying again (bike.mike@comcast.net) 12. 10:16 AM - Re: Spars (Phillips, Jack) 13. 10:23 AM - Re: Spars, trying again (Phillips, Jack) 14. 12:02 PM - Re: Spars (Ryan Mueller) 15. 12:16 PM - Re: My Sitka supplier (TOPGUN) 16. 12:24 PM - Re: Spars (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 17. 01:33 PM - Some thoughts on building an airplane (Ryan Mueller) 18. 01:47 PM - Re: Fuse Question (carson) 19. 02:06 PM - Re: Spars (walt) 20. 03:15 PM - Re: Some thoughts on building an airplane (Tom Anderson) 21. 04:52 PM - Re: Spars (Michael Perez) 22. 05:23 PM - How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (Tom Anderson) 23. 05:29 PM - Re: Spars (amsafetyc@aol.com) 24. 05:36 PM - Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (Jeff Boatright) 25. 05:47 PM - Re: Spars (Ryan Mueller) 26. 05:53 PM - Pietenpol-A65 Continental parts (Lagowski Morrow) 27. 06:20 PM - Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (Lagowski Morrow) 28. 06:27 PM - Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (Gene & Tammy) 29. 08:21 PM - Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (shad bell) 30. 08:37 PM - Re: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? (Jeff Boatright) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:46 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: built-up spar would any of you who have made a built-up I beam spar please call me ASAP, kind of an emergency question. Thanks, Gene 202-674-1445 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:15 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: My Sitka supplier As some of you may know from my HINT video on ribs, I have been buying my S itka spruce in bulk, in the rough and making my own cap strips. I have just placed an order with this same vendor, Public Lumber, and am getting my 4 wing spars and the spars for the center section, cut to size except length, shipped to my door for about $150-$170 less the the other web based places I have looked at.- I am told I will have them in a day or two! - I will follow up with a quality and satisfaction email to the list once I h ave them and take a good look. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:22 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Spars I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or being considered. I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice and guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. Thanks John **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:04 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars AMsafetyC@aol.com wrote: > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up > from 1/8 aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not > certain of ho to measure the relative strength of such a spar against > the original spar design to insure it will stand all the stresses and > loads imposed on the wings. How did you intend to connect the poplar to the aluminum? Owen ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:46:13 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Sitka supplier Michael, Just out of curiosity, are you having them grade the wood according to aircraft standards for you before they ship it? If not, are you at all worried about buying the spruce sight unseen and hoping it meets aircraft specs? Ryan On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 8:56 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > As some of you may know from my HINT video on ribs, I have been buying my > Sitka spruce in bulk, in the rough and making my own cap strips. I have just > placed an order with this same vendor, Public Lumber, and am getting my 4 > wing spars and the spars for the center section, cut to size except length, > shipped to my door for about $150-$170 less the the other web based places I > have looked at. I am told I will have them in a day or two! > > I will follow up with a quality and satisfaction email to the list once I > have them and take a good look. > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:16:03 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: My Sitka supplier I have been pleased with the bulk spruce I have bought from them for my cap strips. They advertise their Spruce on the web as "Excellent quality, spar , instrument and aircraft quality Sitka Spruce."- Slightly concerned, yes . I will know more once I have them in hand. I have heard people ordering s pruce from other places have had their share of not-so-good pieces from tim e to time as well, so...I'll know for sure in a day or two. Worse case I en d up cutting it up for other plane parts or projects and re order from anot her place. - ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:57:06 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars John, This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of shape (warping and twisting). It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger than a wooden spar. If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:28:40 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:41:47 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Those among many are areas of my concern which is the main reason for toying with an un proven concept and bringing it for as discussion. Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? I am not interested in building an unsafe or un reliable aircraft just curious and toying with the concept of mixing and using alternative materials. Bonding of course being a key issue as I would have no good way of joining the aluminum spar to the wooden rib, without the use of wooden top and bottom flanges which again creates the same question of binding dissimilar materials, thermal expansion, corrosion and loading. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 12:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, timothywillis@earthlink.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Tim Willis John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:03:17 AM PST US From: bike.mike@comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:12:05 AM PST US From: bike.mike@comcast.net Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars, trying again John et al, In addition to the different ways aluminum and wood respond to temperature changes, the behavior under stress is going to be critical. There are well established calculations for loaded members made of very dissimilar materials. Steel-reinforced concrete is one example. The different materials are usually intended to carry different loads. However, in a wing spar, virtually all the significant loads are from flying at high G-loading. In a typical spar of web and caps, the caps carry primarily tension and compression while the web carries a shear load that keeps the tensioned cap from going one way while the compressed cap goes the other. As the spar flexes under a positive load, the cap on the bottom takes on more tension and the cap on the top takes more compression while the web joins the two under shear loading. These stresses increase predictably because the modulus of elasticity is similar between the spar caps and web. In an all wood spar or an all aluminum spar, the caps and web will flex similarly and the onset of stress with increased load will be shared more predictably, resulting in stresses much more like a stress calculation would indicate. In your composite aluminum/wood wing, you may have to overbuild substantially to safely carry the loads. When the assembled aluminum/wood wing is flying and has to carry an increased load, the aluminum and wood take on the increased stress at different rates. Because aluminum and wood have vastly different moduli of elasticity, the aluminum web will be stressed much more than the wooden spar caps as the wing flexes under load. While the assembly of web and caps could theoretically carry the load, in practice the aluminum web will carry almost all of it, possibly exceeding the tension or compression limit of the material. This is not an area where "toying around" is a very good idea. The Piet is loaded with things to experiment on, but your wing spars are a little too important for experimentation. Mike Hardaway -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com > I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, > spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I > have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in > supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or > being considered. > > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 > aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to > measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to > insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. > > Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed > and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? > > I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the > conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations > that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or > stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar > construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical > engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice > and > guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. > > Thanks > > John > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:43 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars From: "Phillips, Jack" Corrosion, for one thing. The wood wil have about 12% moisture. The aluminum in contact with the wood will not be visible, and the corrosion will not be detected until it falls apart. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of AMsafetyC@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 12:41 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Those among many are areas of my concern which is the main reason for toying with an un proven concept and bringing it for as discussion. Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? I am not interested in building an unsafe or un reliable aircraft just curious and toying with the concept of mixing and using alternative materials. Bonding of course being a key issue as I would have no good way of joining the aluminum spar to the wooden rib, without the use of wooden top and bottom flanges which again creates the same question of binding dissimilar materials, thermal expansion, corrosion and loading. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 12:30:18 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, timothywillis@earthlink.net writes: John, Don't do it... period. No aluminum-wood mix in your spars!!! Bill Church is absolutely right. I tried something like it. I glued some aluminum to wood, not for strength, but just so it wouldn't move around, just to keep through-holes aligned. I was gluing other stuff, and was curious as to the possible bond... no harm, no foul. The bond held at first, but then temperature changes, and bing... the bond failed WITHOUT any stress at all. (BTW, for those of you wondering, it was in my seatbelt attachment assemblies, not a part on the plans.) I cannot imagine the possible disaster of your intended application. Tim in central TX -----Original Message----- >From: Bill Church >Sent: Nov 4, 2008 11:56 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars > >John, > >This is an idea I wouldn't "toy with". > >You are talking about bonding (I assume) two vastly different materials - >aluminum and wood. There are issues with moisture and adhesion and corrosion >and a "biggie" - thermal expansion. >Let's assume your wing will be exposed to a temperature range of 100 degrees >Fahrenheit (20 below to 80 above). This is a conservative estimate - the >real-world application will likely see a temperature range closer to 150 >degrees, since a wing sitting out in direct sun can get much hotter than the >ambient air temperature, but we will use 100 degrees for this example. The >length of your fourteen-foot piece of aluminum is going to expand and >contract by a value of 7/32". Over this same temperature range, the wood >flanges will only expand and contract by a value of less than 1/16". This is >a difference of almost 3/16". The result is that your glue joints will all >fail in shear, and the flanges will no longer be attached to the aluminum >webs. If, by some fluke, the glue manages to hold, your spar will be >experiencing all kinds of stresses which will likely pull the spar out of >shape (warping and twisting). >It's one thing to use an aluminum spar with wooden ribs. It's a whole other >thing to build a spar out of aluminum and wood. And I'm not sure why anyone >would want to try. I don't see any possible advantages to such an approach. >It's not likely to be cheaper, or easier to build, or lighter or stronger >than a wooden spar. > >If anyone wishes to stray from the traditional solid spruce spar as shown in >the plans, at least choose a flight-proven design. > >Bill C. > > > > > sp; (And Get Some AWESOME FREE find you for -Matt Dralle, List e the es y - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS ======================== _____ Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! =http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001> _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:23:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars, trying again From: "Phillips, Jack" Nicely put, Mike. Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of bike.mike@comcast.net Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 1:12 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars, trying again John et al, In addition to the different ways aluminum and wood respond to temperature changes, the behavior under stress is going to be critical. There are well established calculations for loaded members made of very dissimilar materials. Steel-reinforced concrete is one example. The different materials are usually intended to carry different loads. However, in a wing spar, virtually all the significant loads are from flying at high G-loading. In a typical spar of web and caps, the caps carry primarily tension and compression while the web carries a shear load that keeps the tensioned cap from going one way while the compressed cap goes the other. As the spar flexes under a positive load, the cap on the bottom takes on more tension and the cap on the top takes more compression while the web joins the two under shear loading. These stresses increase predictably because the modulus of elasticity is similar between the spar caps and web. In an all wood spar or an all aluminum spar, the caps and web will flex similarly and the onset of stress with increased load will be shared more predictably, resulting in stresses much more like a stress calculation would indicate. In your composite aluminum/wood wing, you may have to overbuild substantially to safely carry the loads. When the assembled aluminum/wood wing is flying and has to carry an increased load, the aluminum and wood take on the increased stress at different rates. Because aluminum and wood have vastly different moduli of elasticity, the aluminum web will be stressed much more than the wooden spar caps as the wing flexes under load. While the assembly of web and caps could theoretically carry the load, in practice the aluminum web will carry almost all of it, possibly exceeding the tension or compression limit of the material. This is not an area where "toying around" is a very good idea. The Piet is loaded with things to experiment on, but your wing spars are a little too important for experimentation. Mike Hardaway -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com > I have yet to begin the construction of my wings as such the topic of spars, > spar designs and materials holds a large interest for me at the moment. I > have not yet settled on a design or materials and would be interested in > supplier sources, materials and designs currently in use, under construction or > being considered. > > I have been toying with the idea of using an I beam design built up from 1/8 > aluminum web and poplar as my flange material. I am not certain of ho to > measure the relative strength of such a spar against the original spar design to > insure it will stand all the stresses and loads imposed on the wings. > > Has anyone been able to evaluate the all the forces on a spar as designed > and compared alternative materials to see how they match up? > > I would be interested in those calculations also as this is just in the > conceptual phases at the moment and unless I can come up with the calculations > that the design is minimally as strong and reliable as the BP design and or > stronger perhaps? I will abandon the idea and stay traditional in the spar > construction. Any rocket scientists, structural, aeronautical, mechanical > engineers or those having input to share that are willing to provide advice > and > guidance, please feel free to lend that assistance. > > Thanks > > John > **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot > 5 Travel Deals! _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 12:02:02 PM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars That's sort of like saying you propose to play a game of Russian Roulette, and upon being told that there is a very high likelihood of death or disfigurement you then ask what other considerations there are.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:41 AM, wrote: > Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations > are there? > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 12:16:35 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: My Sitka supplier From: "TOPGUN" I bought my spar material from public lumber also, it seems to be OK, but i wont know if it is excellent until i plane it to size. i attached a few pics 1 x 6 x 14' Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212287#212287 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/cimg0500_765.jpg ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 12:24:39 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Having discussed the issue with other engineers and designers who have all indicated that it was a possible to construct and accomplish, my other concerns have always been within the realm of wing loading, torsional forces and material fatigue. Along with ways to calculate those as compared to the strength and reliability of wood which prompted the questions in my original post. The answers I have received so far and the quality of the explanations given make a great deal of sense, to that point of which I have quickly abandoned toying with the idea of an aluminum/wood spar design. Actually the hidden deterioration of the aluminum clad in wood created by the moisture content was an excellent point by Jack and speaks to some of the more salient factors affecting that type of combination. I thank you all for your valuable and highly respected input, I appreciate it. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 3:03:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmueller23@gmail.com writes: That's sort of like saying you propose to play a game of Russian Roulette, and upon being told that there is a very high likelihood of death or disfigurement you then ask what other considerations there are.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:41 AM, <_AMsafetyC@aol.com_ (mailto:AMsafetyC@aol.com) > wrote: Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:33:46 PM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Some thoughts on building an airplane Since we are building a Corvair powered Piet, I am also subscribed to the Corvaircraft mailing list. A discussion about alternative cams has popped up lately due to one gentleman having had a cam gear failure in his engine. All of the banter elicited the following post from William Wynne, the Corvair expert. I think a number of things that he says in his post are relevant to some of our recent discussions. There are some things that do not apply, but in the interest of continuity I did not chop up his original line of thought. I apologize for the length, but I thought it was worthwhile. Ryan ------------------------------------ CorvAircraft> Cams, Archives, Gears and reality check (Long) Friends: I just got an email from PF Beck, who said that he will be flying his Corvair powered Pietenpol into CC#12 on Friday. If your a Piet builder or just a fan, try to get in early because this may be the only day PF is on hand. He lives not far away and will be headed back home at sunset. PF is a super friendly guy who has flown something like 100 passengers in his plane since he finished it in 2004. For anyone interested in reading about Delta cams, I would first suggest looking in the very easy to use archives of this list. In October of 2003, I wrote a long post called "the mother of all cam posts". It covered the Delta cam. Read the parts about indexing and diagnosing poor running on engines with unique cams. It should tell you something that this post is more than 5 years old and still no one has flown one. I would be willing to bet that 120 OT-10's have gone airborne in the last 5 years. For super experienced guys Like Steve Makish the Delta is an interesting test: For new guys building their first engine it is a detour: for people who are not putting one in their engine who just want to talk about it, maybe just look it up in the archives instead of rehashing it. There are a handful of topics like this that come back like a merry go-round every 18 months or so. They are brought up before new builders like they are a revelation, when in reality they have been covered before and not much new has be done on them. Mark Langfords sunset pictures always impress me at first, and a few minutes later they stress me out. "Why am I not aloft in our project plane to see that same sunset from Florida?" I take Grace's Taylorcraft up for the last 15 minutes of light. It's nice, This plane was built by craftsmen in Alliance Ohio 62 years ago. Orbiting at 1,500', the cockpit is bathed in yellow light. I look at the welds in the tubing and think that the people who made these welds are mostly gone now. The runway lights clicking on below signal the very end of the day. Gliding in on final I think "How many more months and days until I am doing this in our Corvair/Buttercup? What good excuse did I have for letting this day go by without getting a day closer to done?" Maybe you have a plane in your shop and you think the same things when you look at Mark's photos, I can't tell you how many months and days it will take you, but three things are true: Work on the plane a little every day; Don't take unproven detours; and It will be well worth the time and treasure you invested when your done. If you doubt this, read between the lines on Mark Jones posts. He has 230 hours aloft savoring the rewards of this labor. Even though he just had a dead stick landing, Mark isn't about to let go of what he gets out of flying a plane he built with his own hands. If every homebuilt started was completed, then we could believe that their were infinite paths to successfully completing a plane. If every new idea came from a builder who had finished a plane, we would know that the writer understood how few innovations are actual improvements, and how much time each one adds to your project. In reality, less than 10% of plans built and 20% of kits are finished in the first 5 years. After 10 years the numbers only get to 15% and 25%. So if you want to increase the odds of seeing that sunset from the plane your creating in your shop, think this over... I have a pretty good idea what caused the two broken cam gears, and I have a plan to test my idea, for now, I don't think everyone else has much to worry about. Jack wrote in that he has some ideas on the subject; I put the cam in his engine 3 years ago, and it is fine, his plane was almost done a long time ago, and for him, like almost every one else this is a non issue. However, if someone really doesn't want to see that sunset, the cam gear is as good an out as any other. Likewise, stay off the merry go round of ideas that people talk about but never do. Incorporating several of these makes your project take longer and makes you a test pilot, a title that's probably not on your business card. Put 10 or 15 of these ideas in your project, and you will create the safest kind of plane...the ones that never get finished, never fly, and therefore never expose their pilot to any risk. There is someone reading this right now, just like you are. He is not as young as he used to be. He has been building his plane for a lot of years. He just read the same words you did, but he is really attached to all the innovations he has got in this project. He has a bunch of pet theories, and he doesn't want to change his way of thinking, He is a good guy, and he is going to read some more new stuff on the net tonight instead of going out and getting an hour in on the project. 12 years from now, his widow will sell the project to a guy from another state who never knew him. The new guy will strip out most of the innovations and get the bare bones plane ready to fly in a few months. He will take it up in the 15 minutes before sunset. Flying in smooth air, with the cockpit bathed in yellow light, the pilot will look down at the sound basic construction and the good craftsmanship. The pilot will look at the holes that were going to mount an autopilot and a big artificial horizon, and a row of holes for a dozen circuit breakers and the wires that went to the 3rd fuel pump. The plane flies along hands off as the pilot thinks about the builder, about how great it would be to land the plane, put it away, and spend an hour on the phone with the builder telling him how well it flew. As the runway lights come on below, the pilots last though before heading down is "he's gone now" All the builders now flying their planes are not exceptional supermen. The differences between builders headed for success and those going elsewhere has little to do with skills, tools, wallet thickness, workshop space, or flight experience. The most significant difference is the choices people make and if they are going to get that hour of work in tonight. Thank you. William Wynne 5000-18 HWY 17 #247 Orange Park, FL 32003 USA _http://FlyCorvair.com/hangar.html_ ( http://www.flycorvair.com/hangar.html) - October Update 2008 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 01:47:52 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Fuse Question From: "carson" Thanks for the replies I have glued up the first side and it was fine,but I did put the gusset on , on the underside to be on the safe side. Again thanks Carson Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212305#212305 ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:13 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars John, Not to come off like a turd, but try to enjoy building your Pietenpol as a building project,,,not a redesigning project. Guess it's human nature, but virtually everyone who decides to build feels obligated to change things. Think it was my lucky day to meet my crusty AP, who instilled in me the virtues of building light, building to the plans. I asked , and got his blessing on maybe three things to change on my Piet project. And I'm a happy guy for it. How one feels working in the shop, compared to how one feels flying over the mountains with no place to glide to ,,,,,is a big difference. Crap can always happen in the air,,but in the high up tight spots, I never worry about the "Fisherman's" designs, that may come apart. Also, it's not my preference to go with experimental engines. My A-65 seems to be able to drag me through anything. (Hasn't burped yet, not bad for a 50 some year old engine) Build to the plans Build to the plans My mouth is done for now. :^) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: AMsafetyC@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 3:24 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Having discussed the issue with other engineers and designers who have all indicated that it was a possible to construct and accomplish, my other concerns have always been within the realm of wing loading, torsional forces and material fatigue. Along with ways to calculate those as compared to the strength and reliability of wood which prompted the questions in my original post. The answers I have received so far and the quality of the explanations given make a great deal of sense, to that point of which I have quickly abandoned toying with the idea of an aluminum/wood spar design. Actually the hidden deterioration of the aluminum clad in wood created by the moisture content was an excellent point by Jack and speaks to some of the more salient factors affecting that type of combination. I thank you all for your valuable and highly respected input, I appreciate it. John In a message dated 11/4/2008 3:03:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmueller23@gmail.com writes: That's sort of like saying you propose to play a game of Russian Roulette, and upon being told that there is a very high likelihood of death or disfigurement you then ask what other considerations there are.... Ryan do not archive On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 11:41 AM, wrote: Aside from thermal expansion and bonding issues what other considerations are there? ://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/contribution href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.mat ron.matronics.com/">http://forums.matronics.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:15:22 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Some thoughts on building an airplane From: "Tom Anderson" Gosh, Mr. Wynne's post is almost poetic in nature. -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212318#212318 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 04:52:47 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars If I may, - I fully understand those that feel they need, or should build as per the pr ints. If a builder is the type that wants a proven design and be more then confident when finished that it will fly and hold together, then building t o the print is the way to go. But, how many of us have the 3 piece wing? Ho w about a longer fuselage? Maybe a wider fuselage or taller? Anyone make th e wings longer...maybe shorter? The originals were powered by a Model A, ye s? Most today are Continentals I believe. My point is that along the way, p eople have taken the time, effort and chance to change things. If no one ev er did, we would all have the same plane except for maybe the paint scheme. I applaud those of us who want to try new things and maybe design somethin g that works better, has less drag, lower weight, better lift, etc. I belie ve those who venture down this road know the risks and will do what is need ed to minimize them. With all due respect to the list, to shut anyone down because they want to try something new, I feel, is not a good thing. - The aluminum/wood spar is not the way to go, but I am sure there are other means of building spars. Some day, someone may come up with that new design and get some verbal abuse at first. Over time, that very design may just e nd up being the preferred method of construction. - I for one want to build a dual fuselage Piet. with twin engines and a singl e wing. Sorta like the Twin Mustangs, a few ME-109s and the HE-111s from da ys of old. Let me get this single version done first though... ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 05:23:49 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? From: "Tom Anderson" Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, time-in-type is apparently very important from what I've been told. Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary risks to yourself and others. -------- Location: Wilson, NC Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212343#212343 ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:29:01 PM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars From: amsafetyc@aol.com TWlrZQ0KDQpHcmVhdCBwb2ludHMgYW5kIGNlcnRhaW5seSB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGNvbnRleHQgb2Yg ZXhwZXJpbWVudGF0aW9uIGV2ZW4gaWYgZm9yIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gcHVycG9zZXMuICAgDQpXaWxi dXIuLi4uIE9ydmlsZS4uLi4uIExldCBtZSBnZXQgdGhpcyBzdHJhaWdodCB5b3UncmUgZ29ubmEg dGFrZSBzb21lIGJpY3ljbGUgcGFydHMgc3RpY2tzIHN0cmluZyBhbiBiZWQgc2hlZXRzIGdsdWUg dGhlbSBhbGwgdG9nZXRoZXIgYW5kIG1ha2UgYSBmbHlpbmcgbWFjaGluZT8gSSB0aGluayB5b3Ug Z3V5cyBuZWVkIHRvIHN0aWNrIHdpdGggdGhlIGJpY3ljbGUgYnVzaW5lc3MgaXRzIHNhZmVyLiBB bm5ubmQgYnkgdGhlIHdheSBXaWxidXIgeW91IGJldHRlciBzdG9wIHNuaWZmaW5nIHRoYXQgZ2x1 ZSBpdCBjYW4ndCBiZSBnb29kIGZvciB5YSBpdHMgYWxyZWFkeSBtYWtpbmcgeW91IGhhdmUgY3Jh enkgaWRlYXMuIFNoZWVzaCBmbHlpbmcgbWFjaGluZXMgd2hhdCdzIG5leHQgYSB2aXNpdCB0byBt ZWV0IHRoZSBtYW4gaW4gdGhlIG1vb24/DQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgVmVyaXpvbiBXaXJlbGVzcyBC bGFja0JlcnJ5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBNaWNoYWVsIFBl cmV6IDxzcGVlZGJyYWtlQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5uZXQ+DQoNCkRhdGU6IFR1ZSwgNCBOb3YgMjAwOCAx Njo1MTo0MiANClRvOiA8cGlldGVucG9sLWxpc3RAbWF0cm9uaWNzLmNvbT4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJl OiBQaWV0ZW5wb2wtTGlzdDogU3BhcnMNCg0KDQoNCklmIEkgbWF5LCANCqANCkkgZnVsbHkgdW5k ZXJzdGFuZCB0aG9zZSB0aGF0IGZlZWwgdGhleSBuZWVkLCBvciBzaG91bGQgYnVpbGQgYXMgcGVy IHRoZSBwcmludHMuIElmIGEgYnVpbGRlciBpcyB0aGUgdHlwZSB0aGF0IHdhbnRzIGEgcHJvdmVu IGRlc2lnbiBhbmQgYmUgbW9yZSB0aGVuIGNvbmZpZGVudCB3aGVuIGZpbmlzaGVkIHRoYXQgaXQg d2lsbCBmbHkgYW5kIGhvbGQgdG9nZXRoZXIsIHRoZW4gYnVpbGRpbmcgdG8gdGhlIHByaW50IGlz IHRoZSB3YXkgdG8gZ28uIEJ1dCwgaG93IG1hbnkgb2YgdXMgaGF2ZSB0aGUgMyBwaWVjZSB3aW5n PyBIb3cgYWJvdXQgYSBsb25nZXIgZnVzZWxhZ2U/IE1heWJlIGEgd2lkZXIgZnVzZWxhZ2Ugb3Ig dGFsbGVyPyBBbnlvbmUgbWFrZSB0aGUgd2luZ3MgbG9uZ2VyLi4ubWF5YmUgc2hvcnRlcj8gVGhl IG9yaWdpbmFscyB3ZXJlIHBvd2VyZWQgYnkgYSBNb2RlbCBBLCB5ZXM/IE1vc3QgdG9kYXkgYXJl IENvbnRpbmVudGFscyBJIGJlbGlldmUuIE15IHBvaW50IGlzIHRoYXQgYWxvbmcgdGhlIHdheSwg cGVvcGxlIGhhdmUgdGFrZW4gdGhlIHRpbWUsIGVmZm9ydCBhbmQgY2hhbmNlIHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0 aGluZ3MuIElmIG5vIG9uZSBldmVyIGRpZCwgd2Ugd291bGQgYWxsIGhhdmUgdGhlIHNhbWUgcGxh bmUgZXhjZXB0IGZvciBtYXliZSB0aGUgcGFpbnQgc2NoZW1lLiBJIGFwcGxhdWQgdGhvc2Ugb2Yg dXMgd2hvIHdhbnQgdG8gdHJ5IG5ldyB0aGluZ3MgYW5kIG1heWJlIGRlc2lnbiBzb21ldGhpbmcg dGhhdCB3b3JrcyBiZXR0ZXIsIGhhcyBsZXNzIGRyYWcsIGxvd2VyIHdlaWdodCwgYmV0dGVyIGxp ZnQsIGV0Yy4gSSBiZWxpZXZlIHRob3NlIHdobyB2ZW50dXJlIGRvd24gdGhpcyByb2FkIGtub3cg dGhlIHJpc2tzIGFuZCB3aWxsIGRvIHdoYXQgaXMgbmVlZGVkIHRvIG1pbmltaXplIHRoZW0uIFdp dGggYWxsIGR1ZSByZXNwZWN0IHRvIHRoZSBsaXN0LCB0byBzaHV0DQogYW55b25lIGRvd24gYmVj YXVzZSB0aGV5IHdhbnQgdG8gdHJ5IHNvbWV0aGluZyBuZXcsIEkgZmVlbCwgaXMgbm90IGEgZ29v ZCB0aGluZy4gDQqgDQpUaGUgYWx1bWludW0vd29vZCBzcGFyIGlzIG5vdCB0aGUgd2F5IHRvIGdv LCBidXQgSSBhbSBzdXJlIHRoZXJlIGFyZSBvdGhlciBtZWFucyBvZiBidWlsZGluZyBzcGFycy4g U29tZSBkYXksIHNvbWVvbmUgbWF5IGNvbWUgdXAgd2l0aCB0aGF0IG5ldyBkZXNpZ24gYW5kIGdl dCBzb21lIHZlcmJhbCBhYnVzZSBhdCBmaXJzdC4gT3ZlciB0aW1lLCB0aGF0IHZlcnkgZGVzaWdu IG1heSBqdXN0IGVuZCB1cCBiZWluZyB0aGUgcHJlZmVycmVkIG1ldGhvZCBvZiBjb25zdHJ1Y3Rp b24uDQqgDQpJIGZvciBvbmUgd2FudCB0byBidWlsZCBhIGR1YWwgZnVzZWxhZ2UgUGlldC4gd2l0 aCB0d2luIGVuZ2luZXMgYW5kIGEgc2luZ2xlIHdpbmcuIFNvcnRhIGxpa2UgdGhlIFR3aW4gTXVz dGFuZ3MsIGEgZmV3IE1FLTEwOXMgYW5kIHRoZSBIRS0xMTFzIGZyb20gZGF5cyBvZiBvbGQuIExl dCBtZSBnZXQgdGhpcyBzaW5nbGUgdmVyc2lvbiBkb25lIGZpcnN0IHRob3VnaC4uLg0KDQo ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:00 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? Tom, Every Air Camper I've seen has dual controls. I'm taking primary instruction in mine towards a Sport Pilot license. Run whut ya brung! FWIW, one of my partners in the Piet and several experienced pilots on the field tell me it flies like a less stable Cub or Champ. So, I'd guess that time in either of those or another lightly-loaded convential-geared plane will help a lot. Jeff At 5:23 PM -0800 11/4/08, Tom Anderson wrote: > > >Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, >time-in-type is apparently very important from what I've been told. > >Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? >Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary >risks to yourself and others. > >-------- >Location: Wilson, NC > ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 05:47:53 PM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars Michael, I don't feel it was shutting anyone down just because they want to do something different. It was a matter of illustrating that the particular design modification being proposed would be a hazardous thing to attempt. It would also be a difficult exercise to undertake, with (in my opinion) little reward for the risk. If one wants an alternative to either the routed 1" spar or the solid 3/4" spar there are numerous examples of built up spars that have either flight testing, engineering, or both to back them up. There is info in the archives concerning that. One of the purposes of the list is to disseminate information about how to build (and not build) a Piet. If someone proposes an idea about how to do something differently, and others have concerns and opinions that disagree with that builder, then they should most definitely voice their opinions. Based on the quality of people we have on the Piet list, I think that generally those concerns come from wanting others to be safe and successful with the building of their Piet. I don't think that it comes from wanting to squash innovation or new ideas. Ryan P.S.: the 3 piece wing, longer fuselage, and Continental engine options are all "build to the print" ideas. ;) On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Michael Perez wrote: > > If I may, > > I fully understand those that feel they need, or should build as per the > prints. If a builder is the type that wants a proven design and be more > then confident when finished that it will fly and hold together, then > building to the print is the way to go. But, how many of us have the 3 piece > wing? How about a longer fuselage? Maybe a wider fuselage or taller? Anyone > make the wings longer...maybe shorter? The originals were powered by a Model > A, yes? Most today are Continentals I believe. My point is that along the > way, people have taken the time, effort and chance to change things. If no > one ever did, we would all have the same plane except for maybe the paint > scheme. I applaud those of us who want to try new things and maybe design > something that works better, has less drag, lower weight, better lift, etc. > I believe those who venture down this road know the risks and will do what > is needed to minimize them. With all due respect to the list, to shut anyone > down because they want to try something new, I feel, is not a good thing. > > The aluminum/wood spar is not the way to go, but I am sure there are other > means of building spars. Some day, someone may come up with that new design > and get some verbal abuse at first. Over time, that very design may just end > up being the preferred method of construction. > > I for one want to build a dual fuselage Piet. with twin engines and a > single wing. Sorta like the Twin Mustangs, a few ME-109s and the HE-111s > from days of old. Let me get this single version done first though... > ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 05:53:25 PM PST US From: "Lagowski Morrow" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol-A65 Continental parts The attachment shows some parts for sale that I don't need for my completed plane: --A pair of exhaust stacks for an A-65 Continental (slightly used) -An original, polished Aeronca aluminum heat muff for the stacks -A Matco parking brake (new) -A Mithchell mechanical, ccw tachometer (new) The exhaust stacks new run ~$330 in the Wag Aero catalog. The catalog price for a heat muff is~ $100. The Tach new is ~$180 and the parking brake~ $60. All reasonable offers accepted. Call for details-Jim Lagowski @ 231-264-6489 do not archive ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 06:20:51 PM PST US From: "Lagowski Morrow" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? Tom, Bill David in EAA Chapter 582 near Toledo, Ohio has a dual equipped Piet. His e-mail is: wjdavid582@embarqmail.com. I got some landing help from him after my landing "event" last July.--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Anderson" Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2008 8:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? > > > Regardless of the number of total flight time a pilot has, time-in-type is > apparently very important from what I've been told. > > Are there any Piets in existence with dual flight controls? > Else, how would you "really" learn to fly one without unnecessary risks to > yourself and others. > > -------- > Location: Wilson, NC > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=212343#212343 > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 9:38 PM ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 06:27:01 PM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? Tom. My experience with flying my Piet for the first time was that it handled just like the other tail draggers I had flown, with the exception that I needed to add 50 to 100 RPM above idle just before touch down for a smooth landing. I would suggest a LOT of taxi time, both slow and high speed. I feel high speed taxiing, with the tail up, is really important to get the feel of the aircraft. In my opinion it's the landing where your most likely to get into trouble with a Piet. Once in the air it flies like any other slow dirty airplane. I'm sure others will share their views on flying the Piet. You'll rarely go wrong taking all the instruction you can get in any type of plane. Gene Do Not Archive ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 08:21:48 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? Tom, In the words of my Grandfather, " You can either fly or you can't".- If you can really fly an airplane, and feel it and know what it is doing y ou will not have any problem with a piet.- He learned to fly in the 40's where you flew what ever was avilaible on any given day, Taylorcrfaft,- c ub, champ, whatever.- The 1st time I flew a piet was the 2nd flight of NX 92GB right after the 1st flight of 92GB by my father.- He flew it's madin voyage about 20 min, and landed, then off I went.- I had only 15-20 hrs tailwheel time, and less than 200 total time-and it had been 8 months sin ce I had flown a taildragger, and I only had 1 hr in a 150 since the last t ime I flew.- Landed no problem, if you are comfortable in a champ or cub fly it,- it just sinks a little faster.- An airplane is an airplane, es pecially a low performance airplane like a piet.- Just carry a little ext ra power on landing untill you get the feel of her, and be very conservitiv e with the crosswnd component and you will have no problem with a piet.- D ON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! - Just my 2 cents worth Shad=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 08:37:05 PM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: How do you learn to fly a Pietenpol? Best advice of the day, IMO. > DON'T TAKE CHANCES IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE, GET AN EXPERIANCED >T/W PILOT TO DO THE TEST FLIGHT IF YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE WITH IT! > >Just my 2 cents worth >Shad > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.