Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Clif Dawson)
2. 05:37 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Perez)
3. 05:52 AM - Elevator Trim (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 06:04 AM - Re: Elevator Trim (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
5. 06:35 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Perez)
6. 07:00 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Silvius)
7. 07:08 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Bill Church)
8. 07:39 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Perez)
9. 07:58 AM - Re: Elevator Trim (Jeff Boatright)
10. 08:09 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Ryan Mueller)
11. 08:24 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Perez)
12. 08:43 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Ryan Mueller)
13. 09:16 AM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Michael Perez)
14. 10:42 AM - Sky Scout Available (slowbilder@comcast.net)
15. 10:58 AM - Elevator Trim (Oscar Zuniga)
16. 11:16 AM - Re: Sky Scout Available (Michael Silvius)
17. 01:26 PM - build vs. buy? (Tom Anderson)
18. 01:53 PM - wing rib set for sale ? (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
19. 02:54 PM - Re: build vs. buy? (Jim Ash)
20. 02:59 PM - Re: wing rib set for sale ? (Jim Ash)
21. 03:35 PM - Re: build vs. buy? (John Hofmann)
22. 04:24 PM - Re: build vs. buy? (Gene & Tammy)
23. 04:56 PM - Spar stock pictures (Michael Perez)
24. 05:02 PM - Spar stock pictures #2 (Michael Perez)
25. 05:08 PM - Resessed straps (Michael Perez)
26. 05:44 PM - Re: Resessed straps (Don Emch)
27. 07:31 PM - Re: build vs. buy? (Jim Ash)
28. 07:34 PM - Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber (Clif Dawson)
29. 07:38 PM - Re: Sky Scout Available (Clif Dawson)
30. 07:38 PM - Re: Resessed straps (Bill Church)
31. 07:47 PM - Brakes (Marc Dumay)
32. 08:03 PM - build vs. buy (Oscar Zuniga)
33. 08:46 PM - Re: Resessed straps (Clif Dawson)
34. 09:05 PM - Re: Brakes (Ryan Mueller)
35. 09:23 PM - Re: Resessed straps (Ryan Mueller)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
I don't like it either, even though fir is stronger than spruce.
Is this the one with the bow?
In any case a half inch of bow is outside the possibility of
straightening it by cutting it straight. Since you've essentialy
got 1/4" of extra depth to the material the spar end will still
be 1/4" bowed on the opposite edge albeit for only one and a
half feet. Then again from the last rib it's 4" cut down to the
wing tip bow so the bowed in part will only be 14" with a depth
of 1/8" at the last rib. You'd have to watch the newly created
runout too.
Also the grain runout appears to be on the edge of acceptability
in the photo.
And we still don't know what the end grain angle is.
Clif
"Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle." (Michelangelo)
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2008 2:15 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Mike,
When in doubt, refer to AC 43.13-1B (available here, if you don't have
it)
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAdvisoryCircu
lar.nsf/0/99C827DB9BAAC81B86256B4500596C4E?OpenDocument&Highlight=43.13
From the photos, it looks like you might have a "pitch pocket", rather
than a knot.
And according to AC 43.13-1B (Chapter 1, paragraph 1-2):
Notes for Table 1-1
1. Defects Permitted.
e. Pitch pockets. Acceptable in center portion of a beam providing
they are at least 14 inches apart when they
lie in the same growth ring and do not exceed 1-1/2 inches length by
1/8 inch width by 1/8 inch depth, and providing
they are not along the projecting portions of I-beams, along the edges
of rectangular or beveled unrouted beams, or
along the edges of the flanges of box beams.
From the photo, it looks like the defect is roughly 2" long, and 3/16"
wide, and probably deeper than 1/8" (hard to tell). So it appears to be
outside of acceptable limits.
Since this is going to be the main structural component of your wings,
I don't think I would take a chance on it. What's the cost of a new spar
- $100 or so? I would buy a new piece. You will be able to use the
board for other parts. The wood looks nice. What does the end grain look
like?
Bill C.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
11/11/2008 7:32 PM
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
I'll have to look at the bow more. While I had it on the floor, I looked at
it while standing. I'll get it on a better surface and get down there with
it and take a better look.
-
The one end of one board that I did look at had an almost vertical grain on
the end, so it looked. A slight angle, but not very much.
-
I can put up more pictures either later today or tomorrow.
Message 3
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Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing,
elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I
do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with
full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've
found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a
bungee on the top arm of
the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light"
(applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel
when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the
trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time
you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so).
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
I may be using a dual tank set up, one in the wings and one in front, now is
a good time for me to be thinking about it so if anyone has pics to share on
the best design and installation I would appreciate seeing them. Along with
any type of description all suggestions are appreciated along with any
suggested improvements in the design to make it most effective, reliable and easy
to
use.
I may abandon the entire idea but would really like to see what goes into a
trim system for a Piet before I make that decision.
Thanks to all that participate
John
In a message dated 11/13/2008 8:53:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
taildrags@hotmail.com writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing,
elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I
do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with
full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've
found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a
bungee on the top arm of
the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light"
(applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel
when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the
trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time
you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so).
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
**************Get the Moviefone Toolbar. Showtimes, theaters, movie news &
p://toolbar.aol.com/moviefone/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000001)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
I find it strange that there are methods for repairing broken or cracked spars,
ribs, skins, etc., but I can't find any place a repair for this so called pitch
pocket. Seems you can mend a broken spar, but not fix a hole.
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
Michael:
I have heard that there are those who have made their own spar stock up
by laminating strips but I don't know about the criteria, so I suppose
if you stock was tall enough and the grain was 100% straight throughout
otherwise, you could run it through the table saw and rip out the
offending 1/4 inch through the whole length and re-glue. But then you
may as well order an other good length and rip that one with the pitch
pocket up for cap strip. Don't know what the etiquette is on gussets but
that may be an option as well if it is located in the right place and
after you get your ribs on.
Michael in Maine
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 9:35 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I find it strange that there are methods for repairing broken or
cracked spars, ribs, skins, etc., but I can't find any place a repair
for this so called pitch pocket. Seems you can mend a broken spar, but
not fix a hole.
Message 7
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| Subject: | Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
Mike,
If you really want to "repair" the pitch pocket you can always cut it out
and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B
Chapter 1 for details.
But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about
spending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going
to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air. That's
most likely to be less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane. And you
will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net
cost to you is much less.
Bill C.
Message 8
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| Subject: | Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective o
ne for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for
such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense
to me.
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Mike,
-
If you really want to "repair"-the pitch pocket you can always cut it out
and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B Cha
pter 1 for details.
-
But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about sp
ending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going to
be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air.-That's
most likely to be-less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane.-A
nd you will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so
the net cost to you is much less.
-
Bill C.-
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Elevator Trim |
Oscar,
Excellent description of the "problem" and of your solution. Given
that you set it and forget it, would a trim tab not do the same for
you? I find that even with tabs, I would still like an in-flight trim
solution, but I'd like to know your thoughts.
Jeff
At 7:49 AM -0600 11/13/08, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>
>
>Walt and others have it exactly right... if you have your fuel in the wing,
>elevator trim really isn't necessary. 41CC has the fuel in the nose and I
>do notice a clear difference in stick position and pressure in cruise with
>full fuel and part fuel. I installed a trim system in the airplane but I've
>found that I never adjust it after I initially set it... basically it uses a
>bungee on the top arm of
>the elevator bellcrank behind the pilot's seat to make the elevator "light"
>(applies nose-up trim), and that has decreased the difference in stick feel
>when the fuel tank is full but it's still noticeable. Total weight of the
>trim system is probably half a pound. As others have noted, the only time
>you really notice it is on long flights (over an hour or so).
>
>Oscar Zuniga
>Air Camper NX41CC
>San Antonio, TX
>mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
>website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
--
---
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
One of the two repairs listed for broken solid spars is to cut out the
failure and splice in a good piece of wood. This is the same repair that you
would have to execute to remove a pitch pocket.
The other method is to use reinforcing plates of spruce or ply on both sides
of the spar to restore the shear strength lost to a longitudinal crack, but
that is a repair for a crack and not an open void such as a pitch pocket.
There must be a enough of a difference in the loss of integrity and strength
to a void than a crack to make it applicable in one case, and not in the
other.
Ryan
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective
> one for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for
> such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense
> to me.
>
> --- On *Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>* wrote:
>
> From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
> Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 10:08 AM
>
> Mike,
>
> If you really want to "repair" the pitch pocket you can always cut it out
> and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B
> Chapter 1 for details.
>
> But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about
> spending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going
> to be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air. That's
> most likely to be less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane. And you
> will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so the net
> cost to you is much less.
>
> Bill C.
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the pocke
t, insert a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates.
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
One of the two repairs listed for broken solid spars is to cut out the fail
ure and splice in a good piece of wood. This is the same repair that you wo
uld have to execute to remove a pitch pocket.
The other method is to use reinforcing plates of spruce or ply on both side
s of the spar to restore the shear strength lost to a longitudinal crack, b
ut that is a repair for a crack and not an open void such as a pitch pocket
. There must be a enough of a difference in the loss of integrity and stren
gth to a void than a crack to make it applicable in one case, and not in th
e other.
Ryan
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:39 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> w
rote:
I agree with you Bill. I plan on buying a new spar and use this defective o
ne for other stock. I just found it odd that there was no repairs noted for
such a thing, yet if the spar is broke, you can fix it. Doesn't make sense
to me.
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com> wrote:
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Mike,
-
If you really want to "repair"-the pitch pocket you can always cut it out
and do a proper splice joint in your spar. Again, refer to AC 43.13-1B Cha
pter 1 for details.
-
But, in my opinion (as always, take it or leave it) you're talking about sp
ending maybe two hundred bucks more for a new piece of wood that's going to
be holding you (and maybe somebody you care about) up in the air.-That's
most likely to be-less than 2% of the cost of the complete airplane.-A
nd you will still be able to use the "defective" board for other parts, so
the net cost to you is much less.
-
Bill C.-
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
Except for the fact that you now have a larger void, and if the void is the
issue in the first place you have only exacerbated the problem. True, it is
a filled void, but a void nonetheless.
I don't know enough about the issue to say whether or not that would be
acceptable. If you were to perform such a repair I would think your DAR is
going to want data to back it up. That is not an acceptable spar repair
according to AC 43.13, so that may be a problem.
Off to work for the day. Have a good one,
Ryan
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the
> pocket, insert a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates.
>
>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
Agreed. I do not know enough either, I am just throwing out ideas to see what others
know.
--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Ryan Mueller <rmueller23@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
Except for the fact that you now have a larger void, and if the void is the issue
in the first place you have only exacerbated the problem. True, it is a filled
void, but a void nonetheless.
I don't know enough about the issue to say whether or not that would be acceptable.
If you were to perform such a repair I would think your DAR is going to want
data to back it up. That is not an acceptable spar repair according to AC
43.13, so that may be a problem.
Off to work for the day. Have a good one,
Ryan
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I was just looking at that Ryan. I am wondering if I can mill out the pocket, insert
a plug with epoxy and the maybe add the plates.
Message 14
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| Subject: | Sky Scout Available |
A friend of mine bought an Ford powered Pietenpol Sky Scout but his wife won't
let him fly it so he would be interested in selling it. It is a very nice example
which has been flown. It has hydraulic brakes and a three piece wing. It was
built by a fellow who had previously built several other Pietenpols . The engine
has about 25 hours on it and has a pressure oil system. If you are interested
let me know and I'll put you in touch with the owner.
Bob Humbert
N491RH
Battle Creek Michigan
Message 15
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Jeff wrote-
>Given that you set it and forget it, would a trim tab not do the same for you?
Yes. It will trim for a given configuration, which is pretty much what my
adjustable setup does since I only set it once and never change it. Some
have preferred not to have fixed tabs on their control surfaces for
appearance purposes but my airplane already has a tab on the rudder so I
wouldn't have cared. I thought I would like the adjustability but have not used
it much.
>I would still like an in-flight trim solution, but I'd like to know your thoughts.
I've seen various ones, including Mike Cuy's simple biasing spring setup with a
lever
under the pilot's seat. Another one that I've seen is a lot more elaborate, with
a
trim wheel, bicycle chain segment, and cables/pulleys. I like trim wheels and
it's
probably what most of us are used to (except those who, like me, learned to trim
by
cranking a window handle either overhead or on the side of the cockpit). There
is also
a very simple system used in the Great Lakes and others, where you tug forward
or aft on
a cable that runs along the side of the cockpit(s) against a friction device.
I don't
think I've seen one on a Piet but it could work. The beauty of that one is that
it can
be run to both cockpits with very little extra effort.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout Available |
send him one of these:
http://www.flycorvair.com/6522223.jpg
----- Original Message -----
From: slowbilder@comcast.net
To: Piet Group
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 1:41 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Sky Scout Available
A friend of mine bought an Ford powered Pietenpol Sky Scout but his
wife won't let him fly it so he would be interested in selling it. It
is a very nice example which has been flown. It has hydraulic brakes
and a three piece wing. It was built by a fellow who had previously
built several other Pietenpols. The engine has about 25 hours on it and
has a pressure oil system. If you are interested let me know and I'll
put you in touch with the owner.
Bob Humbert
N491RH
Battle Creek Michigan
Message 17
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For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be
willing to share how much your overall costs were?
In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple
of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much,
if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that
it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got
the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids
have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want,
if I'm still inclined to do so.
Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion?
--------
Location: Wilson, NC
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979
Message 18
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| Subject: | wing rib set for sale ? |
Group,
I have an interested party who is willing to purchase a complete set of
Pietenpol wing ribs (3 piece wing) if you have or know
of anyone who might have a set of Charlie Ruebeck ribs or equal.
Please contact me off list if you know of a source for a complete set of
available Pietenpol ribs.
Thank you,
Mike C.
Message 19
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| Subject: | Re: build vs. buy? |
If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying one from
someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally done by somebody
else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you built your own, you
can get a special A&P certificate for that specific aircraft and do the annuals
yourself.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>
>
>For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would you be
willing to share how much your overall costs were?
>In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a couple
of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going to save much,
if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the conclusion that
it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one that's already got
the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids
have left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I want,
if I'm still inclined to do so.
>
>Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion?
>
>--------
>Location: Wilson, NC
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979
>
>
Message 20
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| Subject: | Re: wing rib set for sale ? |
I've got a set, but honestly, I personally value the ribs at an awful lot more
than the money I could possibly get for them, even at 5 or 10 times any reasonable
price.
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:53 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Pietenpol-List: wing rib set for sale ?
>
>
>Group,
>
>I have an interested party who is willing to purchase a complete set of
>Pietenpol wing ribs (3 piece wing) if you have or know
>of anyone who might have a set of Charlie Ruebeck ribs or equal.
>
>Please contact me off list if you know of a source for a complete set of
>available Pietenpol ribs.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Mike C.
>
>
Message 21
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| Subject: | Re: build vs. buy? |
Tom,
This is a great question and one I feel I need to weigh in. This is a
big decision you face and one I faced as well. I am an A&P mechanic
and a pilot who just got back into the flying game a couple of years
ago. I have had some tie to aviation since I was about 15. I am now
44. I have restored several aircraft but have not built from scratch.
I have a prewar Taylorcraft to rebuild right now and the desire to
build a Pietenpol with my daughter. She is ready to start with me and
we are building the wing rib jig together over Thanksgiving break.
There's some of the background. A lot more is available if interested.
Please note this is only MY opinion, and based on myself and my
observations over the years. I have thought this question over many
times and seen it in person again and again. If you want to build for
the sake of building and creating, then by all means have at it. If
you want to build to fly, then get something to fly. You will more
than likely, never finish the project. Can you get a good Pietenpol to
fly? Absolutely. Can you learn to fly in it? Legally and under the
right conditions, yes. Practically speaking, no. Good taildragger
instructors are not in abundance and most of them will only instruct
in their airplanes. That's where their insurance is. The reality is
you will probably need to learn to fly in another airplane, become
proficient and confident (those traits are not mutually inclusive) and
have at it on your own. Also, please note, that aviation costs
money....a lot of it at times. It boils down to how you want to spend
your leisure dollar. I used to play a lot of golf when I was between
wives. Four hours on a Saturday (at least) and depending on the course
and beer cart girl, $100 - $200 to chase a little ball around was not
uncommon. Aviation has been cheaper than that for me.
So here are my options as I see 'em:
1. Rent, learn to fly and build. What if you don't like flying? You
can buy a lot of time, pay as you go and learn to fly while building,
also, on a pay as you go basis. No hangar, maintenance and insurance
to worry about except a renters policy after you solo. Keep flying and
stay current, renting while you build. I have a friend of mine who had
a Cardinal RG. It flew all the time. He got close to finishing his
Marquardt Charger and sold the Cardinal. 18 years later he is still
close on the Charger but not current or proficient. Luckily his son
has an L-2 and he is back in the air.
2. Buy an airplane and learn to fly it. If you don't mind what you are
flying, and can pass a medical, 150s can be had for well under 20k if
you look. You will get your money out of it when it is time to sell.
The same can't necessarily be said for a Pietenpol. If you are a big
guy and can pass a medical, Tri-Pacers are not much more. I know of a
Tri-Pacer just out of annual that could be had for probably 15k. No
beauty queen but a pretty solid airframe. They are out there if you
are willing to look.
3. Want to own but can't pass a medical? T-Crafts are still reasonable
and once in awhile a solid Champ shows up under 20K. Cubs are a
premium because they are Cubs but you will never lose money on any of
these three. All are taildraggers so you will need a taildragger
instructor out of the box.
4. Build, then learn to fly. I always see this as the least doable
option because of the time and money it takes before one can even get
in the air. You will still have to rent to fly, more than likely, and
you will be out the same amount of money as you would have in option
one, except you have not learned to fly and become proficient during
the build time.
This is how I see it and certainly am no authority on all aviation. So
what did I do? My wife made me get back into the flying part of
aviation. For this reason, I am to refer to her as the best wife ever.
She just may be. I am lucky in that I have as a good friend, Steve
Krog. He and his wife Sharon run the Cub Club, about 35 minutes from
my house. If you want a little perspective on the Krog's, see the
article in the November 2007 issue of Sport Aviation. I had a 20 year
flying layoff and forgot how much fun it was. I got my tailwheel
endorsement after about six hours and started having a blast. The
opportunity to buy a Cub (through information of a very good friend I
met on this list) came up and purchased it in February of this year. I
secured a hangar in Hartford with the rest of the Cubs and flew the
J-3 from North Carolina to Wisconsin in early May of this year. It was
my first cross country flight in 20 years. A big adventure!
One other thing that I might as well mention. This is the finest
internet list of which I have been a part. I have met several life-
long friends from here. We all make the annual trip to Brodhead and
have a great time for a couple of days. This list has done much to
revitalize the Pietenpol design and show it to younger builders who
are turning out excellent versions of this little airplane.
So, if I were Tom Anderson what would I really do? I would see if I
could take a couple or three weeks, go the Hartford, WI and learn to
fly a Cub as a Sport Pilot. Last I knew, the hourly rate was $85.
Cheap in this day and age. Then I would buy a Champ to fly, while I
built my Pietenpol. When that was done, I would sell the Champ for
more than I paid for it and as to paraphrase Walt, "Life would be
grand."
Of course your mileage may vary,
-john-
John Hofmann
Vice-President, Information Technology
The Rees Group, Inc.
2810 Crossroads Drive, Ste 3800
Madison, WI 53718
Phone: 608.443.2468 ext 150
Fax: 608.443.2474
Email: jhofmann@reesgroupinc.com
On Nov 13, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Tom Anderson wrote:
> >
>
> For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so,
> would you be willing to share how much your overall costs were?
> In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff,
> and a couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm
> likely not going to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In
> fact, I've come to the conclusion that it may be in my best interest
> to purchase a well-built one that's already got the minimum hours
> flown off it and just learn to fly it. Then, when the kids have
> left home and I'm bored in my older age, build me one just like I
> want, if I'm still inclined to do so.
>
> Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion?
>
> --------
> Location: Wilson, NC
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979
>
>
Message 22
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| Subject: | Re: build vs. buy? |
Not completely correct. You would need to get a "condition inspection" not
an annual for an experimental airplane. A lot of A & P's I know will let
you do most, if not all, of the condition inspection under their
supervision. On the experimentals I have owned I have usually paid between
$50.00 and $150.00 for a condition inspection. Well worth the price to
have another set of trained eyes looking over everything. I like to fly and
can't affort to own a plane and build at the same time so buying a completed
Piet was a good way for me to go. Besides, an experimentel airplane is
never done and I'm always tinkering with it anyway.
If you follow the airplanes selling on E-bay and Barnstormers have you ever
wondered why there are so many homebuilt planes with 0 or very few hours for
sale? So many of these have been built by folks that are going to wait
until the plane is finished to learn to fly. Many times they have either
gotten too old or they find they really don't like to fly. If you love to
build then build for the love of it, not to get a cheap airplane. Many time
(really I'd say most times) you can buy a well built experimental for less
than you can build one for.
My 2 cents worth
Gene in beautiful Tennessee (spent the first half of the afternoon flying
the Piet and the second half riding the Gold Wing. Life just doesn't get
any better)
Original Message -----
From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan@earthlink.net>
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>
> If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying
> one from someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally
> done by somebody else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you
> built your own, you can get a special A&P certificate for that specific
> aircraft and do the annuals yourself.
>
> Jim Ash
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>>From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com>
>>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM
>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>>
>><tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com>
>>
>>For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would
>>you be willing to share how much your overall costs were?
>>In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a
>>couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going
>>to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the
>>conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one
>>that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly
>>it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age,
>>build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so.
>>
>>Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion?
>>
>>--------
>>Location: Wilson, NC
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Read this topic online here:
>>
>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Checked by AVG.
> 7:58 AM
>
>
Message 23
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| Subject: | Spar stock pictures |
Here are some pictures of my spar stock as I received them...nothing has been done
to them. These pictures represent what I feel to be the worse areas of the
boards, they only improve form these pictures.
Message 24
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| Subject: | Spar stock pictures #2 |
A few more.
Message 25
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Just a hypothetical question here, lets take the flying strut as an example
. Instead of making three pieces and welding them together at the top. Then
taking it and fitting it over the strut and running bolts through it, how
about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the exact s
ize and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts through
. This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar, both nest
led in its own recess, both flush with the spar face,-epoxied and bolted.
What say you?
Message 26
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| Subject: | Re: Resessed straps |
I guess I'm not sure why you would go through all of that trouble and probably
compromise the strength of the spar in the process. Please leave it like it is
on the plans and when you are bouncing around in turbulence you will rest assured
that you are hanging on a sound design with nearly 80 years of proven service.
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214034#214034
Message 27
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| Subject: | Re: build vs. buy? |
I guess I'm a little surprised to learn the rules are different for experimentals.
For years, I thought they were the same.
So what's the difference between a conditional inspection and an annual?
Jim Ash
-----Original Message-----
>From: Gene & Tammy <zharvey@bellsouth.net>
>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 7:23 PM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>
>
>Not completely correct. You would need to get a "condition inspection" not
>an annual for an experimental airplane. A lot of A & P's I know will let
>you do most, if not all, of the condition inspection under their
>supervision. On the experimentals I have owned I have usually paid between
>$50.00 and $150.00 for a condition inspection. Well worth the price to
>have another set of trained eyes looking over everything. I like to fly and
>can't affort to own a plane and build at the same time so buying a completed
>Piet was a good way for me to go. Besides, an experimentel airplane is
>never done and I'm always tinkering with it anyway.
>If you follow the airplanes selling on E-bay and Barnstormers have you ever
>wondered why there are so many homebuilt planes with 0 or very few hours for
>sale? So many of these have been built by folks that are going to wait
>until the plane is finished to learn to fly. Many times they have either
>gotten too old or they find they really don't like to fly. If you love to
>build then build for the love of it, not to get a cheap airplane. Many time
>(really I'd say most times) you can buy a well built experimental for less
>than you can build one for.
>My 2 cents worth
>Gene in beautiful Tennessee (spent the first half of the afternoon flying
>the Piet and the second half riding the Gold Wing. Life just doesn't get
>any better)
>
>
>Original Message -----
>From: "Jim Ash" <ashcan@earthlink.net>
>To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
>Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 4:51 PM
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>
>
>>
>> If you're an A&P, that might work. But for those of us who aren't, buying
>> one from someone else would require us to get our annuals professionally
>> done by somebody else, just as if you'd bought a standard-type. If you
>> built your own, you can get a special A&P certificate for that specific
>> aircraft and do the annuals yourself.
>>
>> Jim Ash
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>>From: Tom Anderson <tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com>
>>>Sent: Nov 13, 2008 4:26 PM
>>>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>>>Subject: Pietenpol-List: build vs. buy?
>>>
>>><tomanderson_nc@yahoo.com>
>>>
>>>For those of you that have built a Piet in the past 5 yrs. or so, would
>>>you be willing to share how much your overall costs were?
>>>In talking with several members on this forum (thanks Jack, Jeff, and a
>>>couple of others), I have come to the conclusion that I'm likely not going
>>>to save much, if anything, by building a Piet. In fact, I've come to the
>>>conclusion that it may be in my best interest to purchase a well-built one
>>>that's already got the minimum hours flown off it and just learn to fly
>>>it. Then, when the kids have left home and I'm bored in my older age,
>>>build me one just like I want, if I'm still inclined to do so.
>>>
>>>Any comments, suggestions, or meaningful discussion?
>>>
>>>--------
>>>Location: Wilson, NC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=213979#213979
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Checked by AVG.
>> 7:58 AM
>>
>>
>
>
Message 28
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| Subject: | Re: Spars arrived from Public Lumber |
Lay it flat and run a tight string from end to end parallel to
the straightest section near the edge.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2008 5:37 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spars arrived from Public Lumber
I'll have to look at the bow more. While I had it on the floor,
I looked at it while standing. I'll get it on a better surface and get
down there with it and take a better look.
The one end of one board that I did look at had an almost
vertical grain on the end, so it looked. A slight angle, but not very
much.
I can put up more pictures either later today or tomorrow.
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
3D
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
11/13/2008 6:01 PM
Message 29
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| Subject: | Re: Sky Scout Available |
This guy should be rich by now! :-)
Clif
send him one of these:
http://www.flycorvair.com/6522223.jpg
Message 30
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| Subject: | Re: Resessed straps |
Mike,
Are you coming up with these ideas just to get a reaction out of people?
If I read your question correctly, you are proposing carving recesses into the
spar, so that the brackets that attach the lift struts to the wing will sit flush
with the faces of the spar. Your question begs another question...Why?
Assuming that you had a solid 3/4" spar, and you routed a 1/8" deep slot for the
fitting on each side, you will have effectively weakened your spar by 33%. And
the benefit of this action would be... nothing.
I have no idea why you would want the fittings to be flush with the faces of the
spar. The recesses would do nothing other than weaken the spar. The epoxy bond
between the steel strap and the wood can not be relied on to carry a load.
The load is transferred from the fitting to the wood by two means: One is the
bolts which pass through the fittings and the wood. The other is the metal strap
across the top of the spar. Ideally, this would be a single bent piece of metal,
rather than three pieces welded, but to make this fitting in one piece is
not very feasible, thus it is designed as a welded fitting.
I recall an earlier post of yours, indicating that you have capabilities in machining,
but not in welding. Give in, Mike. You are either going to learn to weld,
or find someone to do it for you. This old wooden airplane has lots of parts
that NEED to be welded.
Bill C.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=214059#214059
Message 31
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Good day fellow mentors.
Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, I
was curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not on
their aircraft?
We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways.
We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having a
brake handle like on a motorcycle.
The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left or
right", just both wheels would brake the same amount.
We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve.
We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about the
ease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet.
Any input or advice would be appreciated.
Marc and Larry
Message 32
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Can of worms here but I'll give my own opinion.
1. If you don't have a license, learn to fly in rented aircraft. Much easier than
thinking you can build your own and then learn to fly in it.
2. Once you have your license, if you're a tinkerer or a builder or a gear-head
or have a shop, you'll be happiest if you build your own airplane, whether it's
from scratch or if you purchase a project and finish it.
3. If you're not a shop person or you're not sure, buy a completed aircraft and
be flying in it tomorrow. Once you have it and are flying, you can tweak it
to personalize it, or overhaul things you don't like, or modify to your heart's
content (assuming it's an experimental, and that's what we're discussing here).
There are plenty on the market for $15K or less, depending on finish and
quality. That's the cost of buying a new car these days, so what's another vehicle
in the driveway ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 33
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| Subject: | Re: Resessed straps |
You definitely DO NOT want to mill slots across your spars.
Most of the stress from flight loads concentrates at this
location.
If you made a chart of measured compression loads along
a beam with the support in the middle it would be a
parabolic in nature, not straight.
Even if this weren't the case, reducing the width of the spar
at any point negates having that width anywhere else on
this beam so that material becomes useless weight.
This is the " weakest link " principle in living colour. :-)
"Education: the path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty."
- Mark Twain, writer and humorist
Miserably yours, Clif , Hahahaha.
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the
strut to the exact size and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place
and run the bolts through. This will give you the two fittings on either
side of the spar, both nestled in its own recess, both flush with the
spar face,
Message 34
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Well, the Tri-Pacer used the Johnson bar approach. If I recall it was
supposedly due to having a glut of Cub master cylinders that needed to be
used up. Either way, that is a nosewheel aircraft with a steerable
nosewheel, not a tailwheel airplane.
One other problem with having to operate a brake handle is that you are now
removing your hand from the throttle (or the stick, but I would say you
probably ought not do that). I would think that it would be inadvisable to
do when landing, because the rudder is providing most of your directional
control, and if you need a quick blast of power to keep yourself going where
you want you now have the half second of time it takes to move your hand
back to the throttle. Maybe that is enough time, maybe not. Not an issue on
a nosewheel airplane with a steerable nosewheel, but on a tailwheel airplane
it could be more of an issue.
You could try to attach your handle to the stick, but that is going to only
increase the complexity of the installation. If your master cylinder is
located under the rear panel or on the side of the rear pit you are also
going to have longer hose runs.
Check out Kurt Shipman's brake setup (which I'm sure is based on Bill
Rewey's):
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Kurt%20Shipman/P1010101.JPG
And Bill's
http://www.westcoastpiet.com/images/Bill%20Rewey/DSCF0016.JPG
A pair of master cylinders on each side of the front cockpit, a few
relatively short brake lines, and you are done. No need for an antilock
regulator or proportioning valve. You have toe braking, and you can keep
your hands on the stick and throttle.
That's what we will be doing, but there are always other ways to skin a cat
(or stop a Piet).
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 9:45 PM, Marc Dumay <captmarcus@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Good day fellow mentors.
>
>
> Having no experience yet flying a tail dragger, especially a Pietenpol, I
> was curious as to what most Piet builders think of having brakes or not on
> their aircraft?
>
> We will be flying both grass and hard surface runways.
>
>
> We plan on having brakes, but not brake pedals. We are thinking of having a
> brake handle like on a motorcycle.
>
> The drawback, would be that we don't have individual braking " left or
> right", just both wheels would brake the same amount.
>
> We will have a antilock regulator and proportioning valve.
>
> We hope to use a steerable tail wheel, and are a bit concerned about the
> ease of taxing and turning without individual brakes on our Piet.
>
>
> Any input or advice would be appreciated.
>
>
> Marc and Larry
>
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| Subject: | Re: Resessed straps |
Clif and Bill ably covered the answer to this question already, so I won't
belabor their points. I would ask, well, why? I'm curious what your
rationale would be for wanting to make such a modification?
Maybe, as Bill mentioned, part of it may be wanting to avoid welding the
fitting. To that end I will quote the learned gentleman from Ohio, Mike Cuy:
"I'm impressed by the 120 VAC TIG units on the market out there now. Very
reasonable and *if you can't TIG you probably can't finger paint. *I was
amazed by how easy it was to pickup TIG welding (where you feed the filler
rod, it is not fed like in MIG) from a mechanic here at work who taught me
over a few lunch hours."
If you can machine metal, I bet you could finger paint. Maybe you could buy
Mike a few lunches? ;)
Have a good night,
Ryan
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:07 PM, Michael Perez <speedbrake@sbcglobal.net>wrote:
> Just a hypothetical question here, lets take the flying strut as an
> example. Instead of making three pieces and welding them together at the
> top. Then taking it and fitting it over the strut and running bolts through
> it, how about making the two side pieces only and mill out the strut to the
> exact size and thickness of the fittings, epoxy in place and run the bolts
> through. This will give you the two fittings on either side of the spar,
> both nestled in its own recess, both flush with the spar face, epoxied and
> bolted. What say you?
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