Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: Spar Varnish (Richard Carden)
2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Re: Spar Varnish (John Franklin)
3. 06:05 AM - latex house paint (Oscar Zuniga)
4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Re: Spar Varnish (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
5. 08:33 AM - Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber)
6. 08:50 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Phillips, Jack)
7. 09:12 AM - Re: latex house paint (Richard Schreiber)
8. 09:13 AM - Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Owen Davies)
9. 09:50 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Bill Church)
10. 10:20 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber)
11. 10:42 AM - Re: latex house paint (Bill Church)
12. 10:48 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber)
13. 12:53 PM - Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Ernie Moreno)
14. 02:32 PM - Re: latex house paint (H RULE)
15. 02:36 PM - Re: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives (Richard Schreiber)
16. 04:54 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Owen Davies)
17. 07:05 PM - NORDO news (Oscar Zuniga)
Message 1
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Re: Spar Varnish |
Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked! ;-) Or maybe I just didn't ask enough
questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat-
shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's
proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a
sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the
framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar
varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach
the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself
as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with
the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape
should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that
when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood,
which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric,
the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin-
Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities
I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is
understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd
like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've
been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not
a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden
Message 2
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Re: Spar Varnish |
Dick,
If you are an EAA member, you can log in to their website and search for "Ron Alexander"
and "varnish" and you will get several articles he has written on covering
with fabric. One of his articles suggests you take a rag soaked with MEK
and lay it on a sample of the varnish you are going to use, and if it hasn't
affected it after 30 minutes, it should be OK to use. BTW, I did this test
with Minwax Spar Varnish and didn't see any effect from the MEK at all.
Good luck,
John Franklin
GN-1 ...almost ready to cover
Richmond, TX
________________________________________
Message 3
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | latex house paint |
It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up two wooden
test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft. square apiece),
cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one with the Poly-Fiber
process and the other with the Fisher latex house paint method (as detailed in
Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet).
When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and put them
on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference by the approximate
number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and we will then know
how much difference there is in weight.
I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's) "Mountain
Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty.
I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into the history books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures and story at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 4
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Re: Spar Varnish |
I too would love to see the entire process thoroughly explained and in
detail for start to finish. Of late I have completed the wood work on my tail
section and while waiting for my spar material to come in I thought I would start
the sanding and coating process of the tail assemblies so bot the spar and
coating discussions are timely for me. I would like to use house paint but want
to make sure that the preparation though the final paint is detailed and
understood. Changing or removing or destroying the finish or the fabric is not
something I would like to do after using the wrong varnish, process or step
progression.
Can someone clarify the process, step by step material by material so I too
know what to purchase, how much and how to apply it for the best results.
Based upon yesterdays discussion I have probably looked at, at least a dozen
different coating and varnishes and still have nothing to base a decision on.
I would love to see a concensus for the collective wisdom on the ultimate
coating and coloring system from an availability, cost and ease of application
perspective.
As usual I appreciate and value your input, this entire issue has gotten
rather confusing for me.
Thanks
John Recine
In a message dated 11/25/2008 8:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
flywrite@verizon.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden <flywrite@verizon.net>
Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked! ;-) Or maybe I just didn't ask enough
questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat-
shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's
proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a
sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the
framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar
varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach
the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself
as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with
the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape
should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that
when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood,
which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric,
the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin-
Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities
I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is
understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd
like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've
been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not
a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden
**************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks,
and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com
%26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001)
Message 5
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would
like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked
in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director
for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market.
I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms
industry.
The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the past
two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental Protection
Agency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last
10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solvent
content, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products.
The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils,
such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process
and based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations
began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, this
replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performance
and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacement
of the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almost
complete. Their may have been a few hold outs, but t
hey were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's there
were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased the
old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster,
had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistance
to UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethanes
were more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what
finishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from
Minwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware
with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changed
dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations and
probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test.
I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I have
had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! None
of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true when
it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in the
varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do.
1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents such
as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option.
Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and the
coatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply.
2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options.
Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exterior
grade oil modified urethanes would be OK.
3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm.
For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
lmforge@earthlink.net
Message 6
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Good post, Rick. Nice to hear from someone who actually is an expert on
the subject.
I used PolyFiber's 2 part epoxy varnish on my Pietenpol. Since the
landing gear struts are exposed to sunlight any time the plane is out of
the hangar, what should I look for in UV degradation? Will I notice a
yellowing, or a change in clarity? Of course, since the plane spends
most of its life in a hangar, the changes may take years to appear. The
longest period of continuous use outside a hangar is the occasional trip
to Brodhead.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest
and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little
history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years
serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying
coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company
supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry.
The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for
the past two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the
Environmental Protection Agency and cost considerations. This has been
especially true for the last 10 years. In order to meet the current
environmental regulations for low solvent content, manufacturers have
had to dramatically reformulate their products. The old non-urethane
based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils, such as linseed,
tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process and based
more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations
began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's,
this replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior
performance and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the
late 80's the replacement of the old cooked varnishes with the oil
modifed urethanes was almost complete. Their may have been a few hold o
uts, but they were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid
to late 90's there were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket
that far surpased the old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified
urethane varnishes dried faster, had better flexibility, better color
retention and much better resistance to UV degredation than the old
style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethanes were more than
adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what finishing process
was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from Minwax for
his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware
with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have
changed dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC
regulations and probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner
test.
I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know
what I have had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these
regulations! None of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes.
This especially true when it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me
(which it is as I am in the varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I
would do.
1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer
solvents such as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy
would be a good option. Just be aware that epoxies have very poor
resistance to UV light and the coatings are expensive and somewhat
difficult to apply.
2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more
options. Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently
available exterior grade oil modified urethanes would be OK.
3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an
advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell
high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my
Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with
flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have
tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and
it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link
to information on the varnish
http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm.
For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
lmforge@earthlink.net
_________________________________________________
This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege
d, proprietary
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please
notify the sender
immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p
rohibited.
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N
orsk - Portuguese
Message 7
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | latex house paint |
The main difference in weight in the different topcoats is how much you
wind up putting on. The pigments used in white house paint, Stits,
Randolph, Airtech etc are all the same and weigh the same. The difference
in weight of the base resins is negligible, the real difference in weight
of the dry, cured film is in how much you apply. There is probably more
pigment in latex house paint, as the manufacturer is trying for one coat
coverage, than in a typical aircraft coating. However, if you use house
paint you should be able to get by with less application thickness.
One word of caution, if you go the non-certified route and use latex house
paint or auto paint, you are serving as your own test lab. Unfortunately
with most of us this testing will occur on the plane as the final product.
Even if you make up some test frames and stick them outside for a few years
of exposure, its not real world. For example, make a test frame using
Duponts 2 part Urethane Imron for the fabric topcoat, it will appear to
weather just fine. However, put this same coating on a fabric covered
aircraft wing and it will crack and ringworm in a couple of years time.
Some will claim they have used auto enamels with success, but how thick did
they apply it and how many flight hours on the cover job? Latex house paint
may work fine for some, but if you follow someone elses lead you can't be
sure of the same results unless you follow the exact same procedure.
Rick Schreiber
> [Original Message]
> From: Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com>
> To: Pietenpol List <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 11/25/2008 8:08:26 AM
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
>
>
>
> It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up two
wooden test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft.
square apiece), cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one with
the Poly-Fiber process and the other with the Fisher latex house paint
method (as detailed in Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet).
>
> When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and put
them on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference by
the approximate number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and we
will then know how much difference there is in weight.
>
> I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's)
"Mountain Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty.
>
> I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a
number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time
and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the
"Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into the
history books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures and
story at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html
>
> Oscar Zuniga
> Air Camper NX41CC
> San Antonio, TX
> mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
> website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
>
>
Message 8
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: latex house paint (OT) |
Among other comments, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
> I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number
of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent,
and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"...
(etc.)
Speaking of Ernie, it's probably time for me to goose someone about the
Independence Flyer ultralight project. How's it going, Ernie? Is it
going at all?
For those not familiar with it, the Independence Flyer is one of the
Independence EAA chapter's group projects, a well-designed ultralight
that closely resembles two of my favorite antiques (well, not MY
antiques, alas, but you get the idea), the Aeronca C-2 and C-3. It seems
to have been pretty much on hold since everyone there got Nieuport
fever. If I had a few doubloons to my name, didn't live about as far
from Independence as it's possible to get without leaving the continent,
and had an ultralight-friendly airport less than 3 hours drive away, I'd
offer to buy the project, just to see it completed.
Owen
Message 9
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick.
I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's Spar
Urethane. I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was
"improved", and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that the
formulation has been changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest
"improvement" results in a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid of
the can did not claim it to be more durable, so I doubt that it is). I
recall postings from a few years ago that implied that hardware store
urethanes are much less impervious to solvents if one attempts to cover soon
after sealing, as the finish has not fully cured. As I recall, it was
suggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at least a month before
applying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working).
I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives sound
like a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage of
building, and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publish
an in-depth review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart's
products work as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. The
disadvantage, at this point, is the relative newness of the system, and the
lack of a long-term proven track record.
I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically all
solvent-based products will become increasingly more rare, if not banned
outright. Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced,
but I can recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that they
would never be able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leaded
gasoline. Change is coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someone
is working on solutions now.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Schreiber
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and
would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I
have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a
Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the
international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high
performance coatings to the firearms industry.
The formulations ... .
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
Message 10
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Jack,
Typical 2 part epoxy clears show pretty severe degradation within 6 months of continual
exterior exposure here in the midwest. Degradation naturally will occur
faster in southern climates. The mode of degradation is loss of gloss, with
the coating turning a chalky white given enough exposure time. In your case,
since you do not hanger the Piet outside, the limited exterior exposure will probably
not be a problem. If and when it ever becomes an issue, just remove the
gear legs and re-sand to bare wood or at least remove the surface oxidation.
Then refinish with an exterior grade varnish.
If you get on the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy web site they talk about some
of these issues. Even though they market a 2 part epoxy clear for wood, they
too talk about using an exterior varnish over their epoxy for UV protection.
Rick Schreiber
5936D
----- Original Message -----
From: Phillips, Jack
Sent: 11/25/2008 10:53:59 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Good post, Rick. Nice to hear from someone who actually is an expert on the subject.
I used PolyFibers 2 part epoxy varnish on my Pietenpol. Since the landing gear
struts are exposed to sunlight any time the plane is out of the hangar, what
should I look for in UV degradation? Will I notice a yellowing, or a change in
clarity? Of course, since the plane spends most of its life in a hangar, the
changes may take years to appear. The longest period of continuous use outside
a hangar is the occasional trip to Brodhead.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would
like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked
in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director
for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market.
I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms
industry.
The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the past
two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental Protection
Agency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last
10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solvent
content, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products.
The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils,
such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process
and based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations
began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, this
replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performance
and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacement
of the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almost
complete. Their may have been a few hold o uts, but
they were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's there
were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased the
old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried
faster, had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistance
to UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed
urethanes were more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what
finishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from
Minwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware
with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changed
dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations
and probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test.
I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I have
had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! None
of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true when
it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in the
varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do.
1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents such
as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option.
Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and the
coatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply.
2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options.
Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exterior
grade oil modified urethanes would be OK.
3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm.
For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
lmforge@earthlink.net
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
<span style='font-size:10.0pt;color:black;
================
_________________________________________________
or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify
the sender
Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk
- Portuguese
Message 11
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | latex house paint |
Oscar,
This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg
bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex.
Is this a recent discovery?
Bill C.
Message 12
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Bill,
You are right about letting oil modified urethanes cure for an extended period
of time before applying fabric. This is true of any varnish that cures by oxidation.
Epoxies or 2 part urethanes cure by an entirely different chemical process
and should be ready for covering in 24 to 72 hours. As for the oil modified
varnishes, one month would be plenty of time. You may be able to cover sooner,
depending on the thickness of the applied varnish and the temperature in the
room where the parts are kept. Its best to coat a scrap of wood exactly the
same as the part being covered. When the test piece is capable of passing the
30 minute MEK or lacquer thinner test, then you are good to go.
I am very aware of the Stewart's water based system. Dan and Doug Stewart are both
members of the Short Wing Piper Club as I am. I have attended their covering
seminars and have a copy of their covering DVD set and I am impressed! If my
facts are straight, the adhesive and primer parts of their water based system
have been around for a number of years and have worked quite well. The top coat
part is relatively new, but the entire system is certified. I do have some
familiarity with how the products are formulated and I think they will perform
OK. I plan on probably using their system at least up through the primer and
maybe the entire way.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
5936D PA22-150
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Church
Sent: 11/25/2008 11:54:11 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick.
I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's Spar Urethane.
I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was "improved",
and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that the formulation has been
changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest "improvement" results in
a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid of the can did not claim it to be
more durable, so I doubt that it is). I recall postings from a few years ago
that implied that hardware store urethanes are much less impervious to solvents
if one attempts to cover soon after sealing, as the finish has not fully cured.
As I recall, it was suggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at
least a month before applying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working).
I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives sound like
a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage of building,
and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publish an in-depth
review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart's products work
as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. The disadvantage, at
this point, is the relative newness of the system, and the lack of a long-term
proven track record.
I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically all solvent-based
products will become increasingly more rare, if not banned outright.
Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced, but I can
recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that they would never be
able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leaded gasoline. Change is
coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someone is working on solutions
now.
Bill C.
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood
I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would
like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked
in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director
for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market.
I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms
industry.
The formulations ... .
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
Message 13
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: latex house paint (OT) |
Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of structure
is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is structurely complete
now and is covered and painted. Engine has been completed and run. Hope to
put a few photos on the chapter website soon.
Ernie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Owen Davies" <owen5819@comcast.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:13 AM
Subject: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT)
>
> Among other comments, Oscar Zuniga wrote:
>> I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a
>> number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his
>> time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that
>> spawned the "Noon Patrol"... (etc.)
> Speaking of Ernie, it's probably time for me to goose someone about the
> Independence Flyer ultralight project. How's it going, Ernie? Is it going
> at all?
>
> For those not familiar with it, the Independence Flyer is one of the
> Independence EAA chapter's group projects, a well-designed ultralight that
> closely resembles two of my favorite antiques (well, not MY antiques,
> alas, but you get the idea), the Aeronca C-2 and C-3. It seems to have
> been pretty much on hold since everyone there got Nieuport fever. If I had
> a few doubloons to my name, didn't live about as far from Independence as
> it's possible to get without leaving the continent, and had an
> ultralight-friendly airport less than 3 hours drive away, I'd offer to buy
> the project, just to see it completed.
>
> Owen
>
>
>
Message 14
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: latex house paint |
We in the ultralight field have been painting our planes for years with latex and
with great results.It lasts longer from UV than most paints and weathers better
too.Real easy to apply and clean up as you know is a breeze.
________________________________
From: Bill Church <eng@canadianrogers.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:41:48 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint
Oscar,
This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg bacon's)
Piet was painted with Latex.
Is this a recent discovery?
Bill C.
Message 15
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
Subject: | Re: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives |
Ben and others contemplating using latex house paint as a topcoat.
Be very careful thinning these products with a lot of water for spray
application. I don't want to bore everyone with the technology, but this is
how these products work. The base resin, whether it be acrylic or Poly
Vinyl Acetate, is basically composed of very tiny spherical particles of
resin, water, coalescing solvent, emulsifiers and some various other magic
ingredients. As the water and coalescing solvents evaporate, the resin
particles get packed closer and closer. Finally they are packed so tight by
capillary action that the coalescing solvent migrates into the resin
particles and causes the resin to "fuse" into a continuous film. Without
the coalescing solvent or if its in the wrong proportions, the resins do
not coalesce and the coating turns to dust. If too much water is added, it
can severely impact this process as the water interferes with the fusing
process. The problem with doing this on an aircraft coating is you would
have no idea how severely this has affected the paint. It may appear to be
ok, but you find out later that your latex topcoat starts to lose adhesion
to the primer in the slipstream when the plane goes over 60 mph. Just
remember this is not just a cosmetic issue. If the primer or the topcoat
starts to unzip on the wing, especially in the leading edge area, you could
be in for a world of hurt. The airfoil could be affected the same as if it
had a coating of frost on it and stop flying.
This is why the FAA is so adamant about following the STC for coatings
systems. Its not about cosmetics, but flight safety.
Rick Schreiber
Valparaiso, IN
> [Original Message]
> From: Ben Charvet <bcharvet@bellsouth.net>
> To: <pietenpol-list@matronics.com>
> Date: 11/24/2008 9:19:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives
>
>
> I experimented with Floetrol, windshield washer fluid, and plain old
> water. The floetrol gave the worse results, and I couldn't tell the
> difference between water and washer fluid. I was honestly surprised how
> nice it went on with the HVLP gun. Getting it thin enough must be the
> trick, and I was probably using a little more pressure than I would use
> for an auto paint job, because there was more overspray. One thing I
> did do was spray all the pieces flat so I could put on a good wet coat,
> the water reducer/thinner allowed it to flow out very smooth. The
> Sherwin Williams latex is quite thick, so I am using 2 parts SW to one
> part distilled water.
>
> Ben
> Oscar Zuniga wrote:
<taildrags@hotmail.com>
> >
> >
> > Ben;
> >
> > I'm quite interested in your latex application technique. You say
"thinned". Does that mean you used Floetrol or water? Two completely
different things, as I understand it... water will thin the paint but
Floetrol makes it flow out. Not sure how much of that is product hype and
how much is real. Either way, one or the other is necessary for shooting
latex from a regular gun so I'm curious as to your technique.
> >
> >
>
>
Message 16
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
paint (OT)
Ernie Moreno wrote:
> Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of
> structure is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is
> structurely complete now and is covered and painted. Engine has been
> completed and run. Hope to put a few photos on the chapter website soon.
Good news, indeed, Ernie! I'm looking forward to hearing how it flies.
Owen
Message 17
INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
The latest issue of the "NORDO News", newsletter from the bunch who runs the Lee
Bottom Fly-In, includes some pix of Piets, including Mike Cuy making smoke,
like on the Sunday pix from the fly-in:
http://www.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=6580047&AlbumKey=haLgg
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|