---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 11/25/08: 17 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:10 AM - Re: Re: Spar Varnish (Richard Carden) 2. 05:39 AM - Re: Re: Re: Spar Varnish (John Franklin) 3. 06:05 AM - latex house paint (Oscar Zuniga) 4. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: Re: Spar Varnish (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 5. 08:33 AM - Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber) 6. 08:50 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Phillips, Jack) 7. 09:12 AM - Re: latex house paint (Richard Schreiber) 8. 09:13 AM - Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Owen Davies) 9. 09:50 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Bill Church) 10. 10:20 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber) 11. 10:42 AM - Re: latex house paint (Bill Church) 12. 10:48 AM - Re: Varnishing Wood (Richard Schreiber) 13. 12:53 PM - Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Ernie Moreno) 14. 02:32 PM - Re: latex house paint (H RULE) 15. 02:36 PM - Re: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives (Richard Schreiber) 16. 04:54 PM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: latex house paint (OT) (Owen Davies) 17. 07:05 PM - NORDO news (Oscar Zuniga) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:10:12 AM PST US From: Richard Carden Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar Varnish Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked! ;-) Or maybe I just didn't ask enough questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat- shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood, which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric, the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin- Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:39:50 AM PST US From: John Franklin Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar Varnish Dick, If you are an EAA member, you can log in to their website and search for "Ron Alexander" and "varnish" and you will get several articles he has written on covering with fabric. One of his articles suggests you take a rag soaked with MEK and lay it on a sample of the varnish you are going to use, and if it hasn't affected it after 30 minutes, it should be OK to use. BTW, I did this test with Minwax Spar Varnish and didn't see any effect from the MEK at all. Good luck, John Franklin GN-1 ...almost ready to cover Richmond, TX ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:05:15 AM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up two wooden test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft. square apiece), cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one with the Poly-Fiber process and the other with the Fisher latex house paint method (as detailed in Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet). When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and put them on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference by the approximate number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and we will then know how much difference there is in weight. I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's) "Mountain Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty. I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into the history books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures and story at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:24:15 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Re: Spar Varnish I too would love to see the entire process thoroughly explained and in detail for start to finish. Of late I have completed the wood work on my tail section and while waiting for my spar material to come in I thought I would start the sanding and coating process of the tail assemblies so bot the spar and coating discussions are timely for me. I would like to use house paint but want to make sure that the preparation though the final paint is detailed and understood. Changing or removing or destroying the finish or the fabric is not something I would like to do after using the wrong varnish, process or step progression. Can someone clarify the process, step by step material by material so I too know what to purchase, how much and how to apply it for the best results. Based upon yesterdays discussion I have probably looked at, at least a dozen different coating and varnishes and still have nothing to base a decision on. I would love to see a concensus for the collective wisdom on the ultimate coating and coloring system from an availability, cost and ease of application perspective. As usual I appreciate and value your input, this entire issue has gotten rather confusing for me. Thanks John Recine In a message dated 11/25/2008 8:11:37 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, flywrite@verizon.net writes: --> Pietenpol-List message posted by: Richard Carden Gosh, I'm almost sorry I asked! ;-) Or maybe I just didn't ask enough questions. I'll start over: I'm using the medium-weight heat- shrinkable fabric from AS. I don't plan to follow anybody's proprietary processes. What I want to do is protect the wood with a sealant (varnish) and then apply a "glue" to attach the fabric to the framework. Apparently there are spar varnishes and there are spar varnishes, and the selection depends upon what glue you use to attach the fabric. One archive recommendation says that using varnish itself as a glue if an excellent method as it bonds varnish to varnish with the fabric in between. I've also read that a sticky-backed tape should be put over the framework so as to underlie the fabric so that when it's stitched the fabric doesn't contact the edges of the wood, which might cause fabric fraying/abrasion. Then a cement, the fabric, the stitching and finally the pinked tape. I like the Sherwin- Williams latex idea, if for no other reason it has all the qualities I want. I get mixed messages from the archives, which is understandable since different strokes for different folks. What I'd like is/are recommendations for a complete process from those who've been there and done that. (I reinvented the wheel once, and it's not a thing of beauty!!) Dick Carden **************One site has it all. Your email accounts, your social networks, and the things you love. Try the new AOL.com %26icid=aolcom40vanity%26ncid=emlcntaolcom00000001) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:33:46 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry. The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the past two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental Protection Agency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last 10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solvent content, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products. The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils, such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process and based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, this replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performance and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacement of the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almost complete. Their may have been a few hold outs, but t hey were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's there were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased the old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster, had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistance to UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethanes were more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what finishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from Minwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changed dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations and probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test. I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I have had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! None of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true when it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in the varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do. 1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents such as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option. Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and the coatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply. 2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options. Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exterior grade oil modified urethanes would be OK. 3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm. For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN lmforge@earthlink.net ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:50:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood From: "Phillips, Jack" Good post, Rick. Nice to hear from someone who actually is an expert on the subject. I used PolyFiber's 2 part epoxy varnish on my Pietenpol. Since the landing gear struts are exposed to sunlight any time the plane is out of the hangar, what should I look for in UV degradation? Will I notice a yellowing, or a change in clarity? Of course, since the plane spends most of its life in a hangar, the changes may take years to appear. The longest period of continuous use outside a hangar is the occasional trip to Brodhead. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry. The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the past two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental Protection Agency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last 10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solvent content, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products. The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils, such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process and based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, this replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performance and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacement of the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almost complete. Their may have been a few hold o uts, but they were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's there were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased the old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster, had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistance to UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethanes were more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what finishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from Minwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changed dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations and probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test. I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I have had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! None of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true when it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in the varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do. 1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents such as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option. Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and the coatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply. 2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options. Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exterior grade oil modified urethanes would be OK. 3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm. For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN lmforge@earthlink.net _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:12:57 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint The main difference in weight in the different topcoats is how much you wind up putting on. The pigments used in white house paint, Stits, Randolph, Airtech etc are all the same and weigh the same. The difference in weight of the base resins is negligible, the real difference in weight of the dry, cured film is in how much you apply. There is probably more pigment in latex house paint, as the manufacturer is trying for one coat coverage, than in a typical aircraft coating. However, if you use house paint you should be able to get by with less application thickness. One word of caution, if you go the non-certified route and use latex house paint or auto paint, you are serving as your own test lab. Unfortunately with most of us this testing will occur on the plane as the final product. Even if you make up some test frames and stick them outside for a few years of exposure, its not real world. For example, make a test frame using Duponts 2 part Urethane Imron for the fabric topcoat, it will appear to weather just fine. However, put this same coating on a fabric covered aircraft wing and it will crack and ringworm in a couple of years time. Some will claim they have used auto enamels with success, but how thick did they apply it and how many flight hours on the cover job? Latex house paint may work fine for some, but if you follow someone elses lead you can't be sure of the same results unless you follow the exact same procedure. Rick Schreiber > [Original Message] > From: Oscar Zuniga > To: Pietenpol List > Date: 11/25/2008 8:08:26 AM > Subject: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint > > > > It sounds to me like it might be time for a scientific test. Lay up two wooden test frames of a statistically-significant size (say maybe 2 ft. square apiece), cover both using the same fabric, and then finish one with the Poly-Fiber process and the other with the Fisher latex house paint method (as detailed in Stevee's notes on Westcoastpiet). > > When completely cured, cut both test sections out of their frames and put them on a digital scale and compare the weight. Multiply the difference by the approximate number of yards of fabric used in a Piet project, and we will then know how much difference there is in weight. > > I was quite surprised to see that John Dilatush's (now Greg Bacon's) "Mountain Piet" also wears latex house paint. It's a beauty. > > I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"... the squadron of 13 Nieuport replicas that flew into the history books a few years ago as a remarkable group project. Pictures and story at http://eaa292.org/noonpatrol_hi-res.html > > Oscar Zuniga > Air Camper NX41CC > San Antonio, TX > mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com > website at http://www.flysquirrel.net > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:57 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT) Among other comments, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that spawned the "Noon Patrol"... (etc.) Speaking of Ernie, it's probably time for me to goose someone about the Independence Flyer ultralight project. How's it going, Ernie? Is it going at all? For those not familiar with it, the Independence Flyer is one of the Independence EAA chapter's group projects, a well-designed ultralight that closely resembles two of my favorite antiques (well, not MY antiques, alas, but you get the idea), the Aeronca C-2 and C-3. It seems to have been pretty much on hold since everyone there got Nieuport fever. If I had a few doubloons to my name, didn't live about as far from Independence as it's possible to get without leaving the continent, and had an ultralight-friendly airport less than 3 hours drive away, I'd offer to buy the project, just to see it completed. Owen ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:50:24 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick. I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's Spar Urethane. I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was "improved", and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that the formulation has been changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest "improvement" results in a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid of the can did not claim it to be more durable, so I doubt that it is). I recall postings from a few years ago that implied that hardware store urethanes are much less impervious to solvents if one attempts to cover soon after sealing, as the finish has not fully cured. As I recall, it was suggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at least a month before applying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working). I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives sound like a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage of building, and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publish an in-depth review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart's products work as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. The disadvantage, at this point, is the relative newness of the system, and the lack of a long-term proven track record. I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically all solvent-based products will become increasingly more rare, if not banned outright. Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced, but I can recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that they would never be able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leaded gasoline. Change is coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someone is working on solutions now. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry. The formulations ... . Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:55 AM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood Jack, Typical 2 part epoxy clears show pretty severe degradation within 6 months of continual exterior exposure here in the midwest. Degradation naturally will occur faster in southern climates. The mode of degradation is loss of gloss, with the coating turning a chalky white given enough exposure time. In your case, since you do not hanger the Piet outside, the limited exterior exposure will probably not be a problem. If and when it ever becomes an issue, just remove the gear legs and re-sand to bare wood or at least remove the surface oxidation. Then refinish with an exterior grade varnish. If you get on the Gougeon Brothers West System epoxy web site they talk about some of these issues. Even though they market a 2 part epoxy clear for wood, they too talk about using an exterior varnish over their epoxy for UV protection. Rick Schreiber 5936D ----- Original Message ----- From: Phillips, Jack Sent: 11/25/2008 10:53:59 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood Good post, Rick. Nice to hear from someone who actually is an expert on the subject. I used PolyFibers 2 part epoxy varnish on my Pietenpol. Since the landing gear struts are exposed to sunlight any time the plane is out of the hangar, what should I look for in UV degradation? Will I notice a yellowing, or a change in clarity? Of course, since the plane spends most of its life in a hangar, the changes may take years to appear. The longest period of continuous use outside a hangar is the occasional trip to Brodhead. Jack Phillips NX899JP From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry. The formulations used for wood varnish, have been in a state of flux for the past two decades due primarily to mandates from Congress, the Environmental Protection Agency and cost considerations. This has been especially true for the last 10 years. In order to meet the current environmental regulations for low solvent content, manufacturers have had to dramatically reformulate their products. The old non-urethane based varnishes were made by cooking various seed oils, such as linseed, tung, soybean etc., with resins. This was a costly process and based more on art than any real science. These cooked varnish formulations began to be replaced by the urethane varnishes in the 50's. By the 70's, this replacement began to accelerate. This was due to the superior performance and ease of manufacture of the oil modifed urethanes. By the late 80's the replacement of the old cooked varnishes with the oil modifed urethanes was almost complete. Their may have been a few hold o uts, but they were relying on perceived quality not on fact. By the mid to late 90's there were many oil-modifed urethane varnishes on the maket that far surpased the old style vrnishes in quality. These oil- modified urethane varnishes dried faster, had better flexibility, better color retention and much better resistance to UV degredation than the old style varnishes. Many of these oil-modifed urethanes were more than adequate for varnishing wood aircraft, no matter what finishing process was used. In the late 90's Mike Cuy picked a good one from Minwax for his plane. Others in the past, have used spar varnish from ACE hardware with success . However, as I stated before, these formulations have changed dramatically in the past 10 years, to satisfy the current VOC regulations and probobaly would not pass the 30 minute lacquer thinner test. I certainly do not have access to the competion's formulas, but I know what I have had to do to my formulations in the past to satisify these regulations! None of the changes are good for aircraft wood varnishes. This especially true when it comes to solvent resistance. If it were me (which it is as I am in the varnishing stage on my Piet) this is what I would do. 1. If you are finishing with a system that contains strong lacquer solvents such as Stits, Randolph etc., varnishing with a two part epoxy would be a good option. Just be aware that epoxies have very poor resistance to UV light and the coatings are expensive and somewhat difficult to apply. 2. If you finish with the Stewart's water based system, you have more options. Since solvent attack is not an issue, most of the currently available exterior grade oil modified urethanes would be OK. 3. This is the process I am going to use. This is not ment as an advertisement, its just what I have done. Since I manufacture and sell high performance varnishes for firearms, this is what I have used on my Pietenpol. Our Permalyn finish was designed for exterior use, with flexibility and resistance to gun cleaning solvents in mind. I have tested for resistance to strong lacquer solvents with a 30 min soak and it passes just fine. For those that might be interested here is a link to information on the varnish http://www.laurelmountainforge.com/finish.htm. For anyone who wants to call me direct call at 219-548-2950, 9-5 CST. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN lmforge@earthlink.net http://www.matronics.com/contribution Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood Bill, You are right about letting oil modified urethanes cure for an extended period of time before applying fabric. This is true of any varnish that cures by oxidation. Epoxies or 2 part urethanes cure by an entirely different chemical process and should be ready for covering in 24 to 72 hours. As for the oil modified varnishes, one month would be plenty of time. You may be able to cover sooner, depending on the thickness of the applied varnish and the temperature in the room where the parts are kept. Its best to coat a scrap of wood exactly the same as the part being covered. When the test piece is capable of passing the 30 minute MEK or lacquer thinner test, then you are good to go. I am very aware of the Stewart's water based system. Dan and Doug Stewart are both members of the Short Wing Piper Club as I am. I have attended their covering seminars and have a copy of their covering DVD set and I am impressed! If my facts are straight, the adhesive and primer parts of their water based system have been around for a number of years and have worked quite well. The top coat part is relatively new, but the entire system is certified. I do have some familiarity with how the products are formulated and I think they will perform OK. I plan on probably using their system at least up through the primer and maybe the entire way. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN 5936D PA22-150 ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church Sent: 11/25/2008 11:54:11 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood Now, there's an educated reply. Thanks for sharing your knowledge, Rick. I just recently finished "varnishing" my empennage with Minwax's Spar Urethane. I noticed that the can had a note indicating that the product was "improved", and was now quicker drying. That obviously means that the formulation has been changed. What it doesn't say is whether the newest "improvement" results in a more durable finish (the sticker on the lid of the can did not claim it to be more durable, so I doubt that it is). I recall postings from a few years ago that implied that hardware store urethanes are much less impervious to solvents if one attempts to cover soon after sealing, as the finish has not fully cured. As I recall, it was suggested that the urethane be allowed to cure for at least a month before applying solvent-based adhesives (hope my memory is working). I have recently been thinking that the Stewart's water-based adhesives sound like a good idea, and may be the route I take when I get to that stage of building, and I read recently that Kitplanes magazine is planning to publish an in-depth review of the products. From what I have read, the Stewart's products work as well as, if not better than the traditional systems. The disadvantage, at this point, is the relative newness of the system, and the lack of a long-term proven track record. I have no doubt that, with the way things have been going, practically all solvent-based products will become increasingly more rare, if not banned outright. Some may say that the traditional finishes will never be replaced, but I can recall just a few years ago, hearing many people say that they would never be able to restrict cigarette smoking. Same story with leaded gasoline. Change is coming, like it or not. The good thing is that someone is working on solutions now. Bill C. From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Richard Schreiber Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:33 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Varnishing Wood I have been reading the posts recently on varnishing wood with interest and would like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. First a little history. I have worked in the coatings industry for over 35 years serving as a Technical Director for various paint companies supplying coatings to the international market. I now own my own paint company supplying high performance coatings to the firearms industry. The formulations ... . Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 12:53:26 PM PST US From: "Ernie Moreno" Subject: Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT) Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of structure is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is structurely complete now and is covered and painted. Engine has been completed and run. Hope to put a few photos on the chapter website soon. Ernie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owen Davies" Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 9:13 AM Subject: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT) > > Among other comments, Oscar Zuniga wrote: >> I do value Ernie Moreno's input. He is a Tech Counselor and has quite a >> number of fine projects under his belt, is extremely generous with his >> time and talent, and lives at the Independence, Oregon airpark that >> spawned the "Noon Patrol"... (etc.) > Speaking of Ernie, it's probably time for me to goose someone about the > Independence Flyer ultralight project. How's it going, Ernie? Is it going > at all? > > For those not familiar with it, the Independence Flyer is one of the > Independence EAA chapter's group projects, a well-designed ultralight that > closely resembles two of my favorite antiques (well, not MY antiques, > alas, but you get the idea), the Aeronca C-2 and C-3. It seems to have > been pretty much on hold since everyone there got Nieuport fever. If I had > a few doubloons to my name, didn't live about as far from Independence as > it's possible to get without leaving the continent, and had an > ultralight-friendly airport less than 3 hours drive away, I'd offer to buy > the project, just to see it completed. > > Owen > > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 02:32:00 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint We in the ultralight field have been painting our planes for years with latex and with great results.It lasts longer from UV than most paints and weathers better too.Real easy to apply and clean up as you know is a breeze. ________________________________ From: Bill Church Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:41:48 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint Oscar, This is the first time that I have read that John Dilatush's (now Greg bacon's) Piet was painted with Latex. Is this a recent discovery? Bill C. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:36:39 PM PST US From: "Richard Schreiber" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives Ben and others contemplating using latex house paint as a topcoat. Be very careful thinning these products with a lot of water for spray application. I don't want to bore everyone with the technology, but this is how these products work. The base resin, whether it be acrylic or Poly Vinyl Acetate, is basically composed of very tiny spherical particles of resin, water, coalescing solvent, emulsifiers and some various other magic ingredients. As the water and coalescing solvents evaporate, the resin particles get packed closer and closer. Finally they are packed so tight by capillary action that the coalescing solvent migrates into the resin particles and causes the resin to "fuse" into a continuous film. Without the coalescing solvent or if its in the wrong proportions, the resins do not coalesce and the coating turns to dust. If too much water is added, it can severely impact this process as the water interferes with the fusing process. The problem with doing this on an aircraft coating is you would have no idea how severely this has affected the paint. It may appear to be ok, but you find out later that your latex topcoat starts to lose adhesion to the primer in the slipstream when the plane goes over 60 mph. Just remember this is not just a cosmetic issue. If the primer or the topcoat starts to unzip on the wing, especially in the leading edge area, you could be in for a world of hurt. The airfoil could be affected the same as if it had a coating of frost on it and stop flying. This is why the FAA is so adamant about following the STC for coatings systems. Its not about cosmetics, but flight safety. Rick Schreiber Valparaiso, IN > [Original Message] > From: Ben Charvet > To: > Date: 11/24/2008 9:19:07 PM > Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Spar Varnish, glue alternatives > > > I experimented with Floetrol, windshield washer fluid, and plain old > water. The floetrol gave the worse results, and I couldn't tell the > difference between water and washer fluid. I was honestly surprised how > nice it went on with the HVLP gun. Getting it thin enough must be the > trick, and I was probably using a little more pressure than I would use > for an auto paint job, because there was more overspray. One thing I > did do was spray all the pieces flat so I could put on a good wet coat, > the water reducer/thinner allowed it to flow out very smooth. The > Sherwin Williams latex is quite thick, so I am using 2 parts SW to one > part distilled water. > > Ben > Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > > > > > Ben; > > > > I'm quite interested in your latex application technique. You say "thinned". Does that mean you used Floetrol or water? Two completely different things, as I understand it... water will thin the paint but Floetrol makes it flow out. Not sure how much of that is product hype and how much is real. Either way, one or the other is necessary for shooting latex from a regular gun so I'm curious as to your technique. > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:54:09 PM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] Re: Ernie Moreno? Was: Re: Pietenpol-List: latex house paint (OT) Ernie Moreno wrote: > Owen, The Indy project is moving forward again and the last bit of > structure is being completd now, the motor mount. The aircraft is > structurely complete now and is covered and painted. Engine has been > completed and run. Hope to put a few photos on the chapter website soon. Good news, indeed, Ernie! I'm looking forward to hearing how it flies. Owen ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:39 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: NORDO news The latest issue of the "NORDO News", newsletter from the bunch who runs the Lee Bottom Fly-In, includes some pix of Piets, including Mike Cuy making smoke, like on the Sunday pix from the fly-in: http://www.smugmug.com/photos/swfpopup.mg?AlbumID=6580047&AlbumKey=haLgg Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.