Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:24 AM - List of Contributors 2008 (Matt Dralle)
2. 03:53 AM - Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz (John Franklin)
3. 04:52 AM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
4. 05:42 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Rob Hart)
5. 06:19 AM - Re: to fly or build? (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
6. 06:26 AM - drilling in tight places (TOM STINEMETZE)
7. 06:39 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Scott Knowlton)
8. 06:45 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Gary Boothe)
9. 07:01 AM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
10. 07:01 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Phillips, Jack)
11. 07:04 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Gene & Tammy)
12. 07:31 AM - Re: List of Contributors 2008 (Jeff Boatright)
13. 07:54 AM - to fly or build? (Jim Markle)
14. 08:18 AM - Re: to fly or build? (TOM MICHELLE BRANT)
15. 08:48 AM - Re: Leading edge material (jimd)
16. 09:05 AM - Re: TV Program (Bill Church)
17. 09:20 AM - Re: List of Contributors 2008 (Tim Willis)
18. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge material (Michael Perez)
19. 09:48 AM - More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez)
20. 10:04 AM - Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.)
21. 10:16 AM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Scott Knowlton)
22. 10:31 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Gary Boothe)
23. 10:33 AM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Scott Knowlton)
24. 10:45 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Owen Davies)
25. 10:46 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Bill Church)
26. 11:15 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez)
27. 11:19 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez)
28. 11:27 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Jack T. Textor)
29. 11:33 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Thomas Bernie)
30. 11:41 AM - Leading edge shaping.... (Jim Markle)
31. 11:43 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Silvius)
32. 11:52 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Gary Boothe)
33. 02:01 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Bill Church)
34. 02:50 PM - A-65 A75 parts for sale (Steve Singleton)
35. 02:52 PM - Re: to fly or build? (walt)
36. 03:49 PM - Re: Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz (Ben Charvet)
37. 03:50 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez)
38. 05:04 PM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
39. 05:45 PM - Re: to fly or build? (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
40. 06:11 PM - Re: timely topics (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
41. 06:23 PM - Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Oscar Zuniga)
42. 06:51 PM - to fly or build? (Oscar Zuniga)
43. 07:05 PM - Re: A-65 A75 parts for sale (Jack Phillips)
44. 07:10 PM - Re: to fly or build? (Clif Dawson)
45. 07:19 PM - Re: Pieterse: doing the math (amsafetyc@aol.com)
46. 08:31 PM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.)
47. 08:40 PM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.)
48. 08:58 PM - Re: to fly or build? (Ryan Mueller)
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Subject: | List of Contributors 2008 |
Dear Listers,
This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close and I want to thank everyone that
so generously made a contribution this year in support of the Matronics Email
List and Forum operation. Your generosity keeps the wheels on this cart and I
truly appreciate the many kind words of encouragement and financial reimbursement.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser, please
feel free to do so. The great List Fund Raiser gifts will be available
on the Contribution site for a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution
today and still get your great gift! Once again, the URL for the Contribution
web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
or by personal check to:
Matronics / Matt Dralle
PO Box 347
Livermore CA 94551-0347
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of Contributors current
as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of names as *these* are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you
enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts around the end of December. In most cases,
gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
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Subject: | Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz |
Piet list,
Does anyone know of a source for 1.8 oz dacron fabric in widths greater than 60"
? Aircraft Spruce only has it in 60" width, which isn't quite wide enough for
the wing chord on my GN-1. I'm pretty sure Michael Cuy covered his Piet with
1.8 oz fabric.
Regards,
John F.
________________________________________
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs old. I have
been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60% done with airframe.
I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy a 152, and enjoy it
while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I will pass the medical, and
at
the rate I'm going, I may not even get the plane done before my medical is
no longer valid.
The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said she
was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I explained I
needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet to do), she had no
apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In fact if I do 8 hours a week,
she starts getting grumpy.
So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it again,
I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand, you are well
along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go ahead and finish it.
You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning on IFR in the Pietenpol?
Good luck with whatever decision you make.
Boyce
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Hi Tom
I am an Australian PPL=2C around 180hrs=2C taildragger and aeros endorsemen
ts. I fly because I simply love flying. Freedom=2C vistas and aspirations
are realised at 1500' which are simply dreamworks at 0' agl. I also fly n
o more than 20hrs/year. The 180 hours have taken a while :) Most often I
fly with an instructor=2C because 20hrs/year doesn't do enough to keep me c
urrent practically=2C even if it keeps me current legally.
I have a fuselage 50% complete=3B tail=2C ribs=2C trailing edges=2C wing ti
p bows and spars done=3B presently enjoying those curlicues of douglas fir
coming off the leading edges from the block plane.
I have kids 15=2C 13 and 10=2C and a wife who not only says she buys into t
he build=2C but also complains when I haven't told her I'm doing some gluin
g (the activity she feels most comfortable with). The plane will be named
after her: black cursive letters on a silver cowling: Antonia. My dad=2C a
lapsed PPL=2C is 78. Much as I'd love it=2C I don't expect to fly with hi
m as the build time left likely exceeds either his life or his ability to g
et into the front cockpit. I work as a radiographer in a major hospital her
e in Perth=2C Western Australia which includes a normal 76hr fortnight as w
ell as on call commitments. Money and time are both tight.
I fly because I enjoy flying. I build because I enjoy building. One day I
will enjoy flying that which I enjoy building. For me these are mutual sy
nergies=2C not competing demands. An hour's flying costs a lot more than a
n hour's building=2C but gives me that delight in the air. An hour's build
ing=2C although leaving me on the ground watching the local traffic going b
y from Jandakot Airport=2C is cheap and contributes to the dream. My glass
is half full either way.
Best wishes in your deliberations. Just make sure that the nett benefit to
your life is always positive.
Cheers
Rob
From: tmbrant@msn.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis
t: to fly or build?Date: Sun=2C 7 Dec 2008 22:55:30 -0600
I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma
I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private
=2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r
eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most
ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st
ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud
time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble
is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so
a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol proj
ect sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage abo
ut 2/3 complete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've
gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I reall
y want to work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month wit
h regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm c
onsidering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in f
lying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do stop
flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would neve
r feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is
real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to start han
ging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not
that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two newly g
lued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy
- oh to be young...The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about
$5000-$7000=2C which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying)
to come up with. At this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flyi
ng.Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my
families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly be
fore they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll
see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what i
t is.Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opi
nions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.Tom B.
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Tom,
Obviously this like with us all is a personal choice of finish or fly. the
economics are to remain current in a IFR certified 172 you're probably looking
at in excess of 100.00 per hour and not going anywhere just punching holes
and taking directions form ATC, doesn't sound like too much fun at all. At
one point I took my ground school then realized that not having my own IFR
certified aircraft means a hefty rental to stay current in something that I
really find not nearly as enjoyable as VFR, so I stopped the training.
Actually the cash spent on IFR currency applied to the Piet goes further as
there are many things you can purchase during the build process for less than
1 hours in the IFR Cessna while advancing the progress on your build.
For my purposes I am out of my currency but building like gang busters. I
figure to regain my currency while getting my tail wheel endorsement and
killing those two birds with one stone.
Its not a perfect solution, just my plan, all in all I am loving the build ,
missing the flying but its gratification and the sooner I finish, the sooner
I get back in the air so I get the satisfaction of the build process, the
proud of the project and an airplane I can fly all the time at the end of the
process. Not a bad trade off in my mind.
John
In a message dated 12/8/2008 1:06:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
rmueller23@gmail.com writes:
Tom,
First off, just out of curiosity, is Michelle your better half or your
middle name? ;)
I'm not speaking from experience on most (if any) of this, but here are my
opinions on what you had to say.
It seems there are two main issues you are having. One issue is whether or
not you will get back to flying if you build the Piet by diverting the
available aviation funds towards the Piet. I would think that if you like flying
you
will get back into it when you complete your Piet. Could you imagine
spending the time, money, sweat equity, etc on completing your Piet and then saying:
"meh, I just don't want to fly"? I would think you would be even more jazzed
up to fly after you finish your Piet!
As far as the worry about being safe in an IFR environment, that's simple.
Before you started flight training/IFR training you probably knew little about
it. But you learned and mastered the intricacies well enough to earn your
rating. As such, becoming current with your IFR rating after a prolonged lack
of use should now be even easier that it was to earn it in the first place,
because you are just refreshing and not learning from scratch.
Finally, you address the fact that there are members of your family that you
would like to share the Piet with before they pass on; to me that is an easy
one. If it's between attempting to maintain IFR currency (especially if that
is not critical to your income), or completing the Pietenpol that both
yourself and your aged relatives want to see fly, I'd go with the Piet. We only
have one go around on this planet. Personally I would choose to do the thing
that I felt would enrich my life and the lives of my loved ones the most. You
may have many other opportunities to brush up on your ratings, but how many
chances will you have to share a Piet with those you care about?
Take the above with a grain of salt. I've not learned or experienced
anywhere near as much as most on this list; those are just my thoughts based on
what
you had to say. Have a good evening, and good luck with whatever you choose
to do!
Ryan
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:55 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT <_tmbrant@msn.com_
(mailto:tmbrant@msn.com) > wrote:
I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm
facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private,
instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really had
to cut
my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to finances.
I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe, especially in
the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a
year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere
- how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month?
For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for
about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3
complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most
of
the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it,
but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and
mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old).
I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing
in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do stop
flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never feel
confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart
but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start hanging around in
the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to
run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly glued pieces of wood,
right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young...
The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which
would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this
rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying.
Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my
families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly before
they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll see
tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it is.
Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions /
recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.
Tom B.
(http://www.matronics.com/contribution)
(http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List)
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
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Subject: | drilling in tight places |
To all who contributed thoughts to my question about drilling in tight
places - THANKS A BUNCH! Mean it! Actually, I already have some long
drill bits which I had totally forgotten about and they have enough flex
to do the job, especially when a pre-drilled block is clamped in place to
assure alignment. Also, I had not thought to go to the EAA Builder's Tips
videos. What a wealth of information and those fancy modern moving
pictures are so much easier to understand than just words. Makes me proud
to be a part of this list.
Tom B. You will kick yourself later if you quit flying or building. The
IFR ticket is information and training that you will never be sorry you
have but it will never give you the enjoyment of low and slow flying in a
Piet. Just take your time and enjoy the building and the occasional
flying. Never rush the building or you will end up doing something that
you will have to tear out and redo later. (Voice of experience.) Take
lots of photos and let the oldsters share in the joy of building even if
they don't get to experience the final product. (That's my Mom in my
case.) Let the children sit in the shell and make airplane noises to
their hearts content. (grandkids in my case) Sucker - eh - cajole - eh -
ASK your wife to help once in a while so she can feel a part of the
project also. You don't want her to think of your airplane as a mistress.
Tom Stinemetze
McPherson, KS
do not archive
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Tom=2C
I suppose all of us share your dilemna of trying to justify the time and ex
pense that we devote to our passion for flying. If I can add my two cents
here=2C I am a professional pilot who was in your position with a fresh IFR
ticket and plans to build a Piet over 12 years ago (with a two year old so
n in toe). My instrument rating was to be my meal ticket so there was no q
uestion of whether that was going to lapse or not. This being the case=2C
some of my ambitious plans had to be temporarily shelved in favour of my wo
rk and family obligations. Life went on=2C I moved ahead in my flying care
er but the Piet consisted of a mailing tube with a couple of dusty manuals
in my workshop. Beaming ahead=2C my son (having grown to nine years old) a
nd I drove to and camped at Brodhead. With a little more time on my hands
and a little better disposable income=2C I felt I could "unshelve" my Piet
plans and start the building process. The tradition of Brodhead continued
for the past five years and for my boy and I it is truly a father and son b
onding experience. We listen to William Wynn's inspiring=2C "Get in the Ar
ena" presentations=2C go for an annual ride in a Piet with Chuck G=2C take
lots of pictures and stay up late by the fire listening to different builde
rs and flyers of my favorite little airplane. As far as building goes=2C w
e have made a rib jig and about 14 cool looking ribs. I don't have much to
show for my 12 years of effort but that's OK. We all have this burden cal
led life that we have to contend with and it takes a certain amount of driv
e out of our passion. I suppose I divide things into two categories=3B thi
ngs I need to do and things I'd like to do. I need to go to work=2C pay my
bills=2C watch my boy's football games=2C take my bride on holidays and sa
ve for my retirement. The Piet falls into the like to do category that ten
ds to slide forward anytime a need to do gets in the way.
Nevertheless=2C I think I will fly my bird to Brodhead one day (or maybe sh
are the trip trading places with my son in the chase car...) but it would o
nly be a frustration to put a date or year on when the event will transpire
. In the meantime=2C my project is something that I attend to when I want
to relax or spend some quality time with my boy. Most things that we do ha
ve a timeline attached to them and these deadlines are the stress inducers
in life. I don't want my piet project to be lumped into that category.
Aviation is an expesnsive hobby and one which should be approached with a f
ocus if someone has to budget time and money (which most of us do). Your I
FR ticket=2C unless you use it very frequently will probably become a burde
n if you chose to keep it current. It will take you away from your family
and the return (the ability to fly in less than VFR weather conditions) pro
bably won't be worth the investment. Your pietenpol=2C however=2C is a pro
ject of so many different aspects that it could very easily reflect the dif
ferent phases of your life (slow progress while your family is young - perh
aps a late hour or two in the shop after the youngsters are asleep) with an
increase in activity as your family grows seeing you spend time with your
kids in the shop. No chore of building here=2C just relaxation and enjoyme
nt as the parts and pieces of your airplane are slowly manufactured.
In sum=2C I think your project would be much easier to dust off and get bac
k into than a rating which really isn't necessary to be proficient at unles
s you have a huge need to go somewhere anytime in any weather ("any wheathe
r" should be taken loosely unless you fly a bird equipped for known ice=2C
have a good weather radar=2C oxygen or pressurization......). Basic VFR fl
ying skills are something you will always have and dusting those off would
consist of a fun five our checkout in a champ or cub in preparation for the
maiden flight of your piet!
Just my thoughts on your situation.
Scott Knowlton
From: tmbrant@msn.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis
t: to fly or build?Date: Sun=2C 7 Dec 2008 22:55:30 -0600
I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma
I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private
=2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r
eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most
ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st
ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud
time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble
is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so
a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol proj
ect sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage abo
ut 2/3 complete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've
gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I reall
y want to work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month wit
h regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm c
onsidering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in f
lying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do stop
flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would neve
r feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is
real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to start han
ging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not
that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two newly g
lued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy
- oh to be young...The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about
$5000-$7000=2C which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying)
to come up with. At this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flyi
ng.Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my
families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly be
fore they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll
see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what i
t is.Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opi
nions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.Tom B.
_________________________________________________________________
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Tom,
Remember, you're talking to a group of Builders. We're all going to say how
much fun it is to build. If you were to log on to the IFR Matronics chat
group (if there were such a thing), they would all say, "What could be more
fun and personally satisfying than doing endless math while never being able
to see the ground?"
I cannot imagine the amount of concentration that it must take to build with
a 2 yr old bumping around in the garage. My 7 yr old grandson pretty much
stops me from doing anything when he's visiting, but I think that's a result
of an aging mind and persona vs. a younger person, such as you.
Anyhow, what I really wanted to say is that some of the best memories as a
young adult that I have are flying with my Dad. He past away last March, and
when he realized that he wasn't going to see the end of my project (a 35
year dream), he said that he wanted a ride.alive or dead.
There will be many joys associated with finishing and flying this, but there
will always be that sadness. I applaud you for having the introspect to ask
the question. Consider this: Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years to
complete, your son will always see you as the Man who had a dream and saw it
through; plus, you will have many years of enjoyable flying with your son,
and possibly plant the seed of a dream in him.
Don't worry about your currency. That will come back in a hurry. Besides, as
someone else alluded to, the Pietenpol is not a good platform for IFR;
unless you need it just to get in and out of your airport.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE
BRANT
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:56 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm
facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private,
instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really
had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to
finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe,
especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in
fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't
really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month?
For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for
about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3
complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered
most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to
work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to
finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old).
I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing
in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do
stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never
feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is
real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start
hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not
that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly
glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy -
oh to be young...
The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which
would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At
this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying.
Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my
families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly
before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll
see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it
is.
Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions /
recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.
Tom B.
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
In a message dated 12/8/2008 9:47:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
gboothe5@comcast.net writes:
Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years to complete, your son will always see
you as the Man who had a dream and saw it through; plus, you will have many
years of enjoyable flying with your son, and possibly plant the seed of a dream
in him.
Great point Gary! That's the one thing I hope for. Whether I continue to
pass medicals or not, I want my kids to see that if you set your mind to
something and stick to it, you can do anything. And, if I can't keep my medical,
then hopefully one of my three kids will take up flying, and I can pass the
plane off on them!
Boyce
Mustang II
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Good post, Scott.
I agree with what you're saying about the IFR ticket. Unless you fly
real instrument conditions frequently, the IFR ticket is somewhat of a
burden to maintain, and a potential trap if you think "I'm instrument
rated. I can make this trip, even though the forecast is down to
minimums and I haven't flown an ILS in 5 months." Those are the guys
that end up as statistics.
I got my instrument rating while I was finishing my Pietenpol. In the
4-1/2 years since I got it, I have made exactly one approach under
actual instrument conditions, and that was on the way back from my
instrument checkride, when I was as sharp as I'll ever be (and the
airport was IFR, but well above minimums). I got the IFR ticket so I
could get my Commercial, and got that so I can get my CFI ticket. Who
wants to fly instruments in a Pietenpol? On the way back from Brodhead
this year, I found myself on top of an unforecast overcast. I flew
above it long enough to assure myself that it went a long way, and then
when it started building up around me, I did a 180 and went back to my
last stop. No fun flying through that stuff with nothing but an
altimeter, an airpseed indicator and a turn & bank.
Tom, you need to remember that finishing the Pietenpol is not a race.
It is about creating something that you can actually fly, and fly pretty
cheaply once you get it finished. I would keep going on the Piet, and
let the instrument currency lapse. You can always pick it up later with
a proficiency check if and when you can afford to fly an airplane with
enough instruments to do so.
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Knowlton
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:40 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
Tom,
I suppose all of us share your dilemna of trying to justify the time and
expense that we devote to our passion for flying. If I can add my two
cents here, I am a professional pilot who was in your position with a
fresh IFR ticket and plans to build a Piet over 12 years ago (with a two
year old son in toe). My instrument rating was to be my meal ticket so
there was no question of whether that was going to lapse or not. This
being the case, some of my ambitious plans had to be temporarily shelved
in favour of my work and family obligations. Life went on, I moved
ahead in my flying career but the Piet consisted of a mailing tube with
a couple of dusty manuals in my workshop. Beaming ahead, my son (having
grown to nine years old) and I drove to and camped at Brodhead. With a
little more time on my hands and a little better disposable income, I
felt I could "unshelve" my Piet plans and start the building process.
The tradition of Brodhead continued for the past five years and for my
boy and I it is truly a father and son bonding experience. We listen to
William Wynn's inspiring, "Get in the Arena" presentations, go for an
annual ride in a Piet with Chuck G, take lots of pictures and stay up
late by the fire listening to different builders and flyers of my
favorite little airplane. As far as building goes, we have made a rib
jig and about 14 cool looking ribs. I don't have much to show for my 12
years of effort but that's OK. We all have this burden called life that
we have to contend with and it takes a certain amount of drive out of
our passion. I suppose I divide things into two categories; things I
need to do and things I'd like to do. I need to go to work, pay my
bills, watch my boy's football games, take my bride on holidays and save
for my retirement. The Piet falls into the like to do category that
tends to slide forward anytime a need to do gets in the way.
Nevertheless, I think I will fly my bird to Brodhead one day (or maybe
share the trip trading places with my son in the chase car...) but it
would only be a frustration to put a date or year on when the event will
transpire. In the meantime, my project is something that I attend to
when I want to relax or spend some quality time with my boy. Most
things that we do have a timeline attached to them and these deadlines
are the stress inducers in life. I don't want my piet project to be
lumped into that category.
Aviation is an expesnsive hobby and one which should be approached with
a focus if someone has to budget time and money (which most of us do).
Your IFR ticket, unless you use it very frequently will probably become
a burden if you chose to keep it current. It will take you away from
your family and the return (the ability to fly in less than VFR weather
conditions) probably won't be worth the investment. Your pietenpol,
however, is a project of so many different aspects that it could very
easily reflect the different phases of your life (slow progress while
your family is young - perhaps a late hour or two in the shop after the
youngsters are asleep) with an increase in activity as your family grows
seeing you spend time with your kids in the shop. No chore of building
here, just relaxation and enjoyment as the parts and pieces of your
airplane are slowly manufactured.
In sum, I think your project would be much easier to dust off and get
back into than a rating which really isn't necessary to be proficient at
unless you have a huge need to go somewhere anytime in any weather ("any
wheather" should be taken loosely unless you fly a bird equipped for
known ice, have a good weather radar, oxygen or pressurization......).
Basic VFR flying skills are something you will always have and dusting
those off would consist of a fun five our checkout in a champ or cub in
preparation for the maiden flight of your piet!
Just my thoughts on your situation.
Scott Knowlton
_____
From: tmbrant@msn.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma
I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private,
instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've
really had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year,
mostly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is
enough to stay safe, especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a
lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR
rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only
fly an hour or so a month?
For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit
for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about
2/3 complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've
gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I
really want to work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each
month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year
old).
I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am
investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is,
that if I do stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I
do, I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break".
My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's
ready to start hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real
basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd
pick up two newly glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run
around with it like a toy - oh to be young...
The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000,
which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up
with. At this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying.
Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my
families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly
before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if
we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it
is what it is.
Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any
opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.
Tom B.
ww.matronics.com/contribution
st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ronics.com
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Tom. Only you can answer your own questions. In my mind these are the
questions you need to answer.
1. IFR and Pietenpol??? I don't understand.
2. IFR and 20 hrs a year? What a wonderful way to kill yourself and
anyone that flys with you.
3. To build or fly?? Do you LOVE building or do you LOVE flying? If
your building just to have a cheap airplane, your building for the
wrong reason.
As for me (and only for me) here's what I would do.....First of all my
family would come first. Flying would come next (I'd forget about IFR
as I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would want to fly
in a cloud and not be able to see mother earth). AND, because I do like
to build things but don't have the most free time or money, I would
continue building as I had the free time and money. So what if I didn't
finish the Piet for 10 or 20 years? As for having your family see you
fly it before they "go", I'll bet they would much rather see you with a
happy family and a smile on your face than a pile of sticks and fabric
in the air.
Sometimes we just can't have it all.
Gene
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Subject: | Re: List of Contributors 2008 |
Matt,
Thanks so much for creating a great set of forums and other services
for the aviation community.
I assume that the list of contributors includes members from all of
the Matronics list? By my count, that's over 4,000 people (assuming
some overlap). I see that that are 1,041 names on the 2008 List of
Contributors...
Best wishes for 2009,
Jeff
>
>Dear Listers,
>
>This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close...
>
>If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's
>Fund Raiser, please feel free to do so....Contribution web site is:
>
> http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>
>
>or by personal check to:
>
> Matronics / Matt Dralle
> PO Box 347
> Livermore CA 94551-0347
>
>
>I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore (
>http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP (
>http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric (
>http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support
>during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of
>discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the
>aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a
>look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support
>is very much appreciated!
>
>And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of
>Contributors current as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of
>names as *these* are the people that make all of these List services
>possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and
>great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
>
>THANK YOU!
>
> http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html
>
...
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
Wow, you sure got a lot of great feedback on this question. Isn't
this list is great?!
But that's now....what about those times when you're all alone, have a
half finished project in the shop and the list isn't available to
encourage you? I don't know about you but I hate starting projects and
"losing interest" and ending up with some half finished project I had to
sell or whatever because "life got in the way" or "family got in the
way" or some other excuse. Yes, many times life pushes us into some
other priority (I know that first hand!) but don't start something you
might have to make excuses for later...
I obviously have only a tiny idea of your personality so I'll base my
answer ONLY on MY personality. If I was asking questions like you just
asked, anyone who knows me would tell me to forget about builidng
anything and go buy an old 150 and enjoy my love of flying. I've seen a
lot of builders spend some time building and a LOT of time selling off
their half done project.
So for me personally, the decision to build or fly was in my heart
long before I even talked to anyone or flew in a Piet or any other type
of homebuilt for that matter. I didn't have to ask anyone (well, I had
to make sure my wife supported it but by the time we had talked about it
I was actually believing it was ME that said it was ok!!).
Do you love flying? Then go fly. Are you wondering whether to fly or
build? Put that on hold for a while. You already know it's not safe to
continue IFR activities on a few hours a year so leave that one.
Just go fly and if building is in your heart, you won't have to ask
anyone. You'll know.
Jim in Pryor OK
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions on my soul searching question
s.
For those of you who commented on IFR in a Piet=2C no worries=2C that was n
ever my intent. It's just something that I fought real hard to get (IFR ra
ting) and someday would like to pick back up.
I think I've answered my own question=2C and most of you confirmed it. I d
o love to fly both VFR and IFR. I also love to build and I've been missing
it dearly. What I didn't say is that I've already had somewhat of a hiatu
s from flying because our hangar burnt down and we were without a plane for
quite a while. When we finally got another plane=2C I was excited to go o
ut and fly it and get my IPC and keep flying my 10-20 hours a year=2C but a
s some of you said=2C the IFR rating becomes a burden - something you're al
ways having to work on if you're not using it regularly. So I found myself
just going out and doing local approaches under the hood with safety pilot
s - it got boring. So=2C I've been posing this question of hanging it up (
temporarily hopefully) for quite a while now internally. I guess I just ne
eded to hear it from other people=2C I don't know why.
I'm also not putting some unrealistic deadline on building but I do have a
goal in mind. April. Not sure what year but some year=2C it will be done
in April =3B )
I hope all of you know the consequences of encouraging me to continue to bu
ild - it means I'll be on here asking all sorts of funny questions. For a
while now=2C I've really wanted to get the materials to build the spars=2C
but as my original post says=2C I kept flying and the money has always held
me up. So I think I'll make the call to drop flying for now and start bui
lding again.
Thanks again guys (and gals if there are any).
Tom B.
From: tmbrant@msn.com
Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma
I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private
=2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r
eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most
ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st
ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud
time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble
is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so
a month?
For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit fo
r about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 com
plete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered m
ost of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to
work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards
to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old).
I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing
in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do
stop flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would
never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year ol
d is real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to star
t hanging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff.
Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two ne
wly glued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like
a toy - oh to be young...
The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000=2C which
would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At
this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flying.
Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my fa
milies health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly befor
e they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll se
e tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it i
s.
Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions
/ recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.
Tom B.
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Subject: | Re: Leading edge material |
I tried using a variety of hand planes and couldn't get something consistent enough
to be able to attach plywood the full length of it and have it smooth enough
for a leading edge.
Ended up getting a custom molding shop to make a cutter to do the work. Then had
two perfect pieces made. Cost about $240, but its exactly right. (I am building
a biplane variant of the piet, and it was for the lower wing's leading edges,
so the size is a bit smaller, else I would point to the shop that did it for
me, as most the cost was the custom cutter.)
Have Okume plywood from Boulter's ($23 a sheet) to cover it, and hope to get that
done soon as part of my Christmas break.
JimD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218225#218225
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Alan,
The scenes you mentioned were, indeed, featuring a Pietenpol Air Camper
(magically flying a dozen or so years before it was even designed). A couple
of years ago, the owner/pilot, Shawn Wolk posted a message to the list,
saying that he was asked to fly his Piet for the filming of this documentary
film. Shawn's Piet is one of (if not THE) oldest Pietenpols flying in Canada
- originally built in 1933. Here's a couple of links to the postings:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=17317
<http://www.matronics.com/searching/getmsg_script.cgi?INDEX=48481057?KEYS=wo
lk?LISTNAME=Pietenpol?HITNUMBER=14?SERIAL=08480120908?SHOWBUTTONS=YES>
and
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=18380
Bill C.
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Subject: | Re: List of Contributors 2008 |
This is a great list, all right, and without it, I would never have had anything
to do with Pietenpols. The help from Piet builders and fliers on this board
is just excellent.
For instance, today I am working on two items, each essential for me, using MODS
from MEMBERS on the site. Here are some specifics:
1. fabbing a "V" and coil spring tailwheel setup to replace former Model T spring,
etc., using Jack Phillips' excellent mods. [A fat boy, I need to lose all
the rearwards CG moment I can.]
2. finish welding the pilot shoulder harness attachment assy., of my own modification,
based on designs of others on the board. [This is to save my damaged
back from compression.] I will send pix of the assy.
3. Thereafter I will use Chuck Gantzer's design for a fiberglass "headrest" to
enclose the ugly tubing and strap of the harness and assy. I am measuring templates
for that now-- using cereal boxes, cheap b____d that I am.
4. Soon after I read another of Oscar's flying episodes, I head to the garage
to work on the Piet. I remain slower than Christmas, but some Piet work every
day, and I have not screwed anything up yet (that I know, at least).
Thanks to all you guys.
Tim in central TX
do not archive
-----Original Message-----
>From: Jeff Boatright <jboatri@emory.edu>
>Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:30 AM
>To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
>Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: List of Contributors 2008
>
>
>Matt,
>
>Thanks so much for creating a great set of forums and other services
>for the aviation community.
>
>I assume that the list of contributors includes members from all of
>the Matronics list? By my count, that's over 4,000 people (assuming
>some overlap). I see that that are 1,041 names on the 2008 List of
>Contributors...
>
>Best wishes for 2009,
>
>Jeff
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Subject: | Re: Leading edge material |
Bill, that half round idea is just that, an idea. I haven't settled on anything
yet. Open to any/all ideas as always. I do have another question about leading
edges that I will post soon. Thanks for the info.
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my half-
round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an item. N
ow hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading edge is
made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and so the
re is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then covered by
the 1/16" ply wood.
-
I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply. W
hy so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other th
en just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did no
t go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down some
at-the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but t
he fabric sags between the ribs anyway.
-
Thinking about this plywood and the-leading edge itself, I wonder why bot
h? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the le
ading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area? Woul
d this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? -Picture what you ma
y have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the ply.
What has changed? What have you lost?- Maybe some type of conncetor piec
e(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a-flat piece att
ached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leadi
ng edge.
-
I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I
am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it
makes sense. Thanks.
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please
contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start,
build, rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation
project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA, and the FAA.
According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any
donation is tax deductible.
I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make
mine.
Thanks!
Rob
EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor
Anchorage, AK
Message 21
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be
the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported.
Scott Knowlton
From: foto@alaska.netTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis
t: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 09:
03:17 -0900
If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please
contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start=2C bu
ild=2C rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation
project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA=2C and the FAA.
According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any do
nation is tax deductible.
I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make m
ine.
Thanks!
Rob
EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor
Anchorage=2C AK
_________________________________________________________________
Message 22
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Michael,
Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I recall
discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading edge profile,
plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect of a tear in the fabric
on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (& Cubs and Aeronca's too, I
imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs, and a thin sheet of aluminum over
the nose of the ribs, from the bottom of the spar to the top of the spar,
covered with fabric.
I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I'm not sure how it could be
best attached.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my
half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an
item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading
edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and
so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then
covered by the 1/16" ply wood.
I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply.
Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other
then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did
not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down
some at the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but
the fabric sags between the ribs anyway.
Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why both?
Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the
leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area?
Would this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? Picture what you
may have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the
ply. What has changed? What have you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor
piece(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a flat piece
attached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the
leading edge.
I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I
am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it
makes sense. Thanks.
Message 23
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
My mistake=2C kits are supplied by Wicks.
Scott K
From: flyingscott_k@hotmail.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: RE:
Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C
8 Dec 2008 13:16:06 -0500
Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be
the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported. Scot
t Knowlton
From: foto@alaska.netTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis
t: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 09:
03:17 -0900
If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please
contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start=2C bu
ild=2C rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation
project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA=2C and the FAA.
According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any do
nation is tax deductible.
I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make m
ine.
Thanks!
Rob
EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor
Anchorage=2C AK
ww.matronics.com/contribution
st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ronics.com
Win a trip with your 3 best buddies. Enter today.
_________________________________________________________________
Message 24
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Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
> Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why
both?
Wouldn't surprise me if it was because the original leading edge was
made from cardboard. Given how many other airplanes use only the plywood
D-cell, it should be plenty strong enough.
Note that my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. I'm not an
engineer or an A&P.
Owen
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Michael,
The leading edge is an important part of the airfoil. Change the leading
edge profile, and you change the airfoil. Change the airfoil and you change
the performance of the plane.
So, while it may be possible to build your ribs with a full airfoil shape
(as opposed to the flat front ribs, with a seperate leading edge, per the
plans), and then wrap the front section with plywood, you would still want
to put something behind that plywood, for strength and resistance to impact
(like say, flying into a bird). This could be, like you say, some kind of
connector piece between each rib. So now, the question becomes "Why would
you want to do this?" Sounds like a whole bunch of extra work, with
absolutely no obvious benefit (unless I'm missing something here).
Usually design changes like this are investigated and carried out by someone
with a strong background in aircraft design. That ain't me. I think this is
an example of "Do what you know, and know what you do." I wouldn't do this
one.
Bill C.
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
I do not believe, that wrapping plywood around the front of the ribs-chan
ges the shape from having a leading edge in there. I believe if the plywood
is epoxied to the bottom of the rib, then bent up around to the top and ep
oxied the whole way to the front spar, that would automatically form a nice
flowing leading edge that blends perfectly with the bottom and top angles
of the rib cap strips. (Preform the plywood-somewhat like we did our rib
cap strips.) Epoxy this plywood to each rib, every 12" or so, (rib spacing)
the same way, and I would bet it will be as strong as having the extra len
gth of leading edge wood strip in there. Impact resistance I wonder about.
Anything can happen, but if we planned for everything then our planes would
be made of sheet steel. Has anyone had a bird strike with their Piet.? (Or
any other in air impact? That would be quite the story!
-
Again, not trying to argue, just sharing my thoughts. I may make up a full
size mock up with my spare ribs and try to put this together and see how it
measures up. I am curious to see how strong 1/16" plywood bent like this s
tands up to frontal abuse.
-
Thanks Bill.
-
Message 27
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Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
Thanks Owen. I wondered if any other planes may use this open D cell type leading
edge. My ribs are built to plans so I have the flat up front for the leading
edge to attach to. I am curious if I can just wrap with the plywood and not
use the leading edge piece. Bill C. alluded to making full shape ribs, this is
not my plan. I would use the ribs as is, with the plywood only. Curious...
Message 28
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Bird strikes, yes, but from behind Bill
Do not archive
Jack
www.textors.com
Message 29
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Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
Guys,
I did the aluminum method -- leading edge material from AS. Very
difficult getting it formed around the leading edge, but cargo straps
helped. Attached with small PK screws.
Regards,
Tom Bernie
Gloucester, Mass
On Dec 8, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Gary Boothe wrote:
> Michael,
>
> Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I
> recall discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading
> edge profile, plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect
> of a tear in the fabric on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (&
> Cubs and Aeronca=92s too, I imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs,
> and a thin sheet of aluminum over the nose of the ribs, from the
> bottom of the spar to the top of the spar, covered with fabric.
>
> I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I=92m not sure how it
> could be best attached.
>
> Gary Boothe
> Cool, Ca.
> Pietenpol
> WW Corvair Conversion
> Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
> (12 ribs down=85)
> From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
> ] On Behalf Of Michael Perez
> Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM
> To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
>
> Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to
> my half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need
> such an item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way
> the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied
> together at the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow
> over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood.
>
> I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the
> ply. Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal
> area other then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much.
> I guess if I did not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would
> pull the ply wood down some at the back edge, giving a little sunken
> in area between the ribs, but the fabric sags between the ribs anyway.
>
> Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder
> why both? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply
> to form the leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong
> enough frontal area? Would this not tie all the rib fronts together
> properly? Picture what you may have now, and picture removing only
> the hard leading edge inside the ply. What has changed? What have
> you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor piece(s) can be made to go
> between each rib at the front, or a flat piece attached to the front
> of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leading edge.
>
> I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys
> think. I am considering this path for my leading edge construction
> and wonder if it makes sense. Thanks.
>
Thomas Bernie
tsbe
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Subject: | Leading edge shaping.... |
With a couple of cuts on a table saw (2 on top, 2 on bottom) the LE can
really easily be preshaped for sanding and planing. Additionally, I lowered
the saw blade and cut one last notch on the top surface, about 1/16" deep to
allow the 1/16" ply to fit into.
Attached pic isn't too good but maybe the idea comes across. Seemed like a
really simple way to give the ply a spot to attach and keep a nice clean
airfoil (like my flying skills will require a perfect airfoil!).
I laminted the entire LE from scraps of Spruce as can be seen in the dark
glue line.
My .02
Jim in Pryor OK
Message 31
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Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
Michael:
FWIW, my Flaconar F-12 is done just like that and cruises just about
twice as fast as the Piet.
Michael in Maine
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my
half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an
item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet
leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at
the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing.
This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood.
Message 32
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Tom,
What appears to be most impressive is your ingenious use of attic space!!
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
Do not archive
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas
Bernie
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
Guys,
I did the aluminum method -- leading edge material from AS. Very difficult
getting it formed around the leading edge, but cargo straps helped.
Attached with small PK screws.
Regards,
Tom Bernie
Gloucester, Mass
On Dec 8, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Gary Boothe wrote:
Michael,
Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I recall
discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading edge profile,
plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect of a tear in the fabric
on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (& Cubs and Aeronca's too, I
imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs, and a thin sheet of aluminum over
the nose of the ribs, from the bottom of the spar to the top of the spar,
covered with fabric.
I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I'm not sure how it could be
best attached.
Gary Boothe
Cool, Ca.
Pietenpol
WW Corvair Conversion
Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!)
(12 ribs down.)
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my
half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an
item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading
edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and
so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then
covered by the 1/16" ply wood.
I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply.
Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other
then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did
not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down
some at the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but
the fabric sags between the ribs anyway.
Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why both?
Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the
leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area?
Would this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? Picture what you
may have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the
ply. What has changed? What have you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor
piece(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a flat piece
attached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the
leading edge.
I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I
am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it
makes sense. Thanks.
http://forums.matronics.com
Thomas Bernie
tsbe
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
So, how would one maintain the shape of the leading edge plywood if it is
unsupported?
I agree that the plywood would automatically form "a shape". Smooth, yes,
but would that shape be the shape you want/need? Without a former to hold
the shape, you're at the mercy of however the wood bends. That was the
reason why I mentioned the full profile wing rib - then you would have
something for the wood to wrap around.
I'm not trying to argue either. I just don't see any advantage to what
you're proposing. I would imagine that cost savings (if any) would be
minimal. It definitely sounds like more work to me.
Just a side note here, but the original Pietenpol plans do not have plywood
sheeting on the bottom of the rib leading edge - just on the top side. Not
sure what the requirements are in the US, but up in Canada, if the ply was
installed top and bottom, back to the spar, a builder would have to have a
separate inspection done before closing in that area (like a box beam) in
addition to the pre-cover inspection. That extra inspection will cost the
builder a few hundred bucks.
If you do build a mock-up to test the bent plywood for impact resistance,
remember to throw the seagull at the leading edge at about 75 mph.
Bill C.
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael
Perez
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:14 PM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
I do not believe, that wrapping plywood around the front of the ribs changes
the shape from having a leading edge in there. I believe if the plywood is
epoxied to the bottom of the rib, then bent up around to the top and epoxied
the whole way to the front spar, that would automatically form a nice
flowing leading edge that blends perfectly with the bottom and top angles of
the rib cap strips. (Preform the plywood somewhat like we did our rib cap
strips.) Epoxy this plywood to each rib, every 12" or so, (rib spacing) the
same way, and I would bet it will be as strong as having the extra length of
leading edge wood strip in there. Impact resistance I wonder about. Anything
can happen, but if we planned for everything then our planes would be made
of sheet steel. Has anyone had a bird strike with their Piet.? (Or any other
in air impact? That would be quite the story!
Again, not trying to argue, just sharing my thoughts. I may make up a full
size mock up with my spare ribs and try to put this together and see how it
measures up. I am curious to see how strong 1/16" plywood bent like this
stands up to frontal abuse.
Thanks Bill.
Message 34
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Subject: | A-65 A75 parts for sale |
Since we sold our Champ and i'm going to concentrate on building the
Piet i'm going to sell some spare motor parts i have. I'll be useing a
Model A so want to sell these to help finance the Piet. If anyone is
interested in 4 good steel cylinders (good cores)only have the steel
valves, a good tapered shaft prop hub, a set of bushings for a McCaulley
prop, Crankshaft and camshaft gears, The prop hub is good, we had to
replace the crank and was able to find a good flanged crank so don't
need the hub. My A/P motor guy felt that these clyinders would just need
Honed along with checking the seats and guides. I'm sure i have some
more misc. parts but will need to look. I'm located in northern MO.
Would gladly trade for Birch plywood for the Piet. I still have the
Crank but it would have to go twenty under to be any good. Since i'm
into the Piet i thought i'd make these available to the Piet crowd
first. Let me know if you'd like to make an offer on these. I can email
pics. 660 565 2936----Cell 660 214 0029, please leave a message if i
don't answer. Steve Singleton
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Boyce,
I'm only responding to your email cause I saw yours first.
I've been a PPSEL since 1966.
Didn't get into the building thing till my kids were grown.
And I have 3 of the greatest kids in the world.
Now I have a beautiful Pietenpol in the hanger that I can fly anytime
I'm divorced, and my Ex left, so I raised my kids from young, and with
all the housework and grocerys, and overtime, I missed the time I should
have had with my kids.
Now that I have 4 going on 5 Grandchildren. I cherish my time with my
grandkids.
Guess my point is,,,there's plenty of time to build when the kids are
grown.
Don't Plan time away to build,,,,Only build when there is nothing else
to do, or the kids are asleep and the wife is shopping.
POINT...You can never relive time with your kids!
If I came off like a nut,,sorry.
I'm done with my soapbox.....:^)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs
old. I have been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60%
done with airframe. I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy
a 152, and enjoy it while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I
will pass the medical, and at the rate I'm going, I may not even get the
plane done before my medical is no longer valid.
The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said
she was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I
explained I needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet
to do), she had no apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In
fact if I do 8 hours a week, she starts getting grumpy.
So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it
again, I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand,
you are well along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go
ahead and finish it. You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning
on IFR in the Pietenpol? Good luck with whatever decision you make.
Boyce
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Subject: | Re: Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz |
I got mine from Wicks, just a few months ago. 7 inches wide, non
certified 1.7 oz. Try this link:
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php?pid=12003
The part # is SF104ANON, $5.85 a yard
Ben Charvet
John Franklin wrote:
>
> Piet list,
>
> Does anyone know of a source for 1.8 oz dacron fabric in widths greater than
60" ? Aircraft Spruce only has it in 60" width, which isn't quite wide enough
for the wing chord on my GN-1. I'm pretty sure Michael Cuy covered his Piet
with 1.8 oz fabric.
>
> Regards,
> John F.
>
>
Message 37
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Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
I believe the top cap strip and the bottom cap strip of the ribs, when the
ply wood is epoxied and held in place, will automatically form the leading
edge curve. We are not talking about a large unsupported area here. It is o
nly the space between the top and bottom cap strips, forward. The angles of
these strips dictate how the plywood curves around the front top and botto
m.- This gets repeated every 12" or so across the entire wing. I would th
ink that would be pretty strong. If at the front of the ribs, say you have
a 2.5" flat area as I do. (top cap strip to bottom cap strip.) If you take
a piece of plywood and secure it along the top cap strip of the rib from th
e spar forward, as you would anyway, then bend it around that 2.5" flat, an
d secure it to the bottom cap strip a few inches along the rib, how differe
nt can the shape be? The cap strip angles, dictate that curve. We all have
the plans, so we could slide the ply forward/back to get the curve
that matches the prints, yes? Now you have this plywood bent so that-it
curves out forward into the on coming air. What type of impact will be requ
ired to smash it backwards? I am not sure, I think whatever hits it may jus
t come apart.
-
If no one has had a midair in a Pietenpol of any sort, how do we know how a
normal leading edge holds up? If a seagull were to hit a Piet at 75 MPH, w
hat happens to it?- (the leading edge/wing, not the bird.) I would think
it would not be much different then a plywood only leading edge. If there i
s no data/info. on the current leading edge design and midair impacts, how
do you argue with a new design being not as good? How can one or the other
be proved better/worse if there is no current info. on hand to compare? Wha
t if, just maybe, that leading edge piece is overkill and not needed...
-
What one may do is make a mock up of each set up and hit them from the fron
t with a seagull size hammer until they break the leading edge of each and
make notes on how/when they break.
-
My point for thinking about this was the weight savings in omitting the lea
ding edge wood, as well as foregoing-the work required to form the leadin
g edge and drilling, bolting, nailing, (more weight) etc., it in place.-
Whatever work/time was involved to make and install that leading edge is no
w gone. Just go right to the wrapping of the ply.- No extra work involved
here. If one feels it necessary, I guess they could make that leading edge
and use it as a form for the ply, then slide it out once the plywood is se
t. These small savings in weight along the way all add up in the end.
-
You say the Piet. plans show no ply under the ribs for the leading edge wra
p, only on top. My Riblett plan is the same. I had no intention on going to
the spar on the bottom. I was wondering why it is even necessary to go all
the way to the spar on top? Seems like a waste once you have that good fro
ntal area covered to continue on back so far. If I were to go this non-lead
ing edge ply route, I would only wrap the ply as far as needed along the bo
ttom to get enough epoxy area to hold it.
-
-
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Thanks Walt! I guess that's why after 4 yrs of building from a kit I'm only
60% done with the airframe. I try to put everything else first, as frustrating
as that feels now, later on I'll be glad I did. I average about 15 hours per
month of airplane work. I may go three weeks without touching it, then put
in a couple long days in the shop. Definitely not the best way of getting it
built, but it is the best I can do for now. And, I will say I enjoy the work.
But, if I were to do it over, I'd probably buy a flying plane so that I could
enjoy it now. Being as far into the project as I am, I will see it through.
Anyone else have stories of there builds and the obstacles they ran into?
Boyce
In a message dated 12/8/2008 5:54:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
waltdak@verizon.net writes:
Boyce,
I'm only responding to your email cause I saw yours first.
I've been a PPSEL since 1966.
Didn't get into the building thing till my kids were grown.
And I have 3 of the greatest kids in the world.
Now I have a beautiful Pietenpol in the hanger that I can fly anytime
I'm divorced, and my Ex left, so I raised my kids from young, and with all
the housework and grocerys, and overtime, I missed the time I should have had
with my kids.
Now that I have 4 going on 5 Grandchildren. I cherish my time with my
grandkids.
Guess my point is,,,there's plenty of time to build when the kids are grown.
Don't Plan time away to build,,,,Only build when there is nothing else to
do, or the kids are asleep and the wife is shopping.
POINT...You can never relive time with your kids!
If I came off like a nut,,sorry.
I'm done with my soapbox.....:^)
walt evans
NX140DL
----- Original Message -----
From: _RAMPEYBOY@aol.com_ (mailto:RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build?
I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs old. I have
been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60% done with airframe.
I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy a 152, and enjoy it
while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I will pass the medical, and
at
the rate I'm going, I may not even get the plane done before my medical is
no longer valid.
The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said she
was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I explained I
needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet to do), she had no
apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In fact if I do 8 hours a week,
she starts getting grumpy.
So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it again,
I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand, you are well
along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go ahead and finish it.
You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning on IFR in the Pietenpol?
Good luck with whatever decision you make.
Boyce
href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na
vigator?Pietenpol-List
href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
I think we all have obstacles to deal with or overcome from family and
social obligation discouraging and un encouraging significant others, Yard work,
home maintenance, work and travel schedules and the ever popular financial
dilemma, changing medical conditions and a host of other things. I think if you
can name I am certain someone has experienced it, even my favorite Builders
block.
I stay on the project by and through contact with friends I have made on the
board, along with the inspirational pictures I have hanging in my shop and
the time I get to visit other builders at Brodhead and on business trips.
Most inspiring is my grandson of 4 years old who has claimed the front pit
as his seat and knowing the back seat belongs to his poppop and that one day he
and I will fly our completed project together!
Just something about that is enough to keep me going, building against all
the obstacles life continues to throw at me. And when its all said and done I
still get the joy of the build experience and a great hand made airplane which
beats the hell out of anything else I can imagine.
John
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Subject: | Re: timely topics |
While I am getting ready to do some metal work, my spars are on order and I
need to get my varnishing going the cloth part is on my list of soon
considerations as far as purchases and applications. To that end does anyone have
any
suggestions for material amounts to order for cthe covering process even if
its an opening order. I just want an idea of what to expect to encounter in
the not too distant future.
I will be on vacation from December 13 through the 5th of January 2009 that
means a bunch of 10 hour build days will soon begin and I am getting ready for
buildapalooza 08. So I been making contacts ordering stuff and planning
the next almost 3 weeks of building allowing 4 hours for Christmas and New Years
combined. I figure that should be more than enough time off.
John
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
Rob;
Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference!
Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb helpful
and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to "there"
could be a problem.
Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico that
may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the brainchild
of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of wings.
Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of completed
fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward, no
main landing gear.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | to fly or build? |
No discussion as far as I'm concerned; if it comes to a choice between
getting a dozen hours of dual instrument time or continuing a Piet project build
in your annual budget, build wins hands-down. You can always go back and brush
up
on IFR skills but building and flying something like a Piet is something that you
may never do again in your life but will always value and remember as long as
you live. And sometimes you will even be introduced (by your son, daughter, or
grandchild) as someone who built and flies his own airplane. Talk about an
ice-breaker at parties!
Not to sound like a "top gun" or anything, but earlier this year I was very
fortunate to get time in a EA-6B Prowler simulator at NAS Whidbey Island. I had
not
flown anything with that many instruments or controls in many years, and yet it's
not
about the knobs and dials; it's about your confidence in command of the aircraft.
Did I goof up? Sure; and I was overwhelmed by all the gadgets and procedures,
but
I had stick, rudder, and throttle and all the rest was just gravy. With those
three
controls in VERY familiar places, I was able to fly some pretty decent maneuvers.
I flew simulated instrument approaches, approaches to an aircraft carrier deck,
and
just plain old maneuvers... in an airplane that was about as different from a Piet
as you can get.
There is nothing more valuable than basic, honest flying skills and judgement...
and
the Pietenpol can teach and maintain those skills every minute that you are at
the controls. At 4 gal./hr. fuel consumption and do-it-yourself service, there
is
simply nothing as affordable to own or fly than one of these basic experimentals.
Go hop in a 172 or an Arrow or a Diamond after flying a Piet for a while and it
will
feel like you're flying a leather couch on rails by comparison. And you even get
cabin heat at the pull of a knob, something that Piet pilots wish they had but
can't buy at any price ;o)
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | A-65 A75 parts for sale |
How much are you asking for the Prop hub?
Jack Phillips
NX899JP
Raleigh, NC
_____
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Singleton
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:50 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 A75 parts for sale
Since we sold our Champ and i'm going to concentrate on building the Piet
i'm going to sell some spare motor parts i have. I'll be useing a Model A so
want to sell these to help finance the Piet. If anyone is interested in 4
good steel cylinders (good cores)only have the steel valves, a good tapered
shaft prop hub, a set of bushings for a McCaulley prop, Crankshaft and
camshaft gears, The prop hub is good, we had to replace the crank and was
able to find a good flanged crank so don't need the hub. My A/P motor guy
felt that these clyinders would just need Honed along with checking the
seats and guides. I'm sure i have some more misc. parts but will need to
look. I'm located in northern MO. Would gladly trade for Birch plywood for
the Piet. I still have the Crank but it would have to go twenty under to be
any good. Since i'm into the Piet i thought i'd make these available to the
Piet crowd first. Let me know if you'd like to make an offer on these. I can
email pics. 660 565 2936----Cell 660 214 0029, please leave a message if i
don't answer. Steve Singleton
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Yes, put your money into building. But who says you can't hang around
the
airfield once in a while. Just practice the old " sad puppydog who wants
a ride"
look and maybe someone will take pity on you. :-)
Clif
So, I've been posing this question of hanging it up (temporarily
hopefully) for quite a while now internally. I guess I just needed to
hear it from other people, I don't know why.
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Subject: | Re: Pieterse: doing the math |
I have been working on getting my paperwork in ordrer. Build logs receipts and
costs into a spread sheet. When all of a sudden what I thought cost me a few bucks
and a few hours actually turned out to be more than I estimated. Get ready
here comes the qiuestion: has anyone calculated a material direct purchase cost
per hour of build time logged? I would be curioius to learn your ratio for
comparison purposes. I am wondering if I am working as efficiently and cost effective
as the list average. Not for any particular purppose other than comparison
value is all
John
------Original Message------
From: Oscar Zuniga
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
Rob;
Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference!
Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb helpful
and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to "there"
could be a problem.
Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico that
may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the brainchild
of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of wings.
Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of completed
fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward, no
main landing gear.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
Oscar,
This sounds good. Yes, I have a trucking company (owned by a bunch of
Alaskan pilots) and several air cargo outfits that I can tap into. What are
the details?
Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist
Anchorage, Alaska
907-230-9425
KL2AN
Skype:rob.stapleton.jr
IM Windows Live Messenger: foto@alaska.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
Rob;
Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference!
Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb
helpful
and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to
"there"
could be a problem.
Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico
that
may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the
brainchild
of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of
wings.
Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of
completed
fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward,
no
main landing gear.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
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Subject: | Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project |
Thanks, I will check out the prospects.
RS
Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist
Anchorage, Alaska
907-230-9425
KL2AN
Skype:rob.stapleton.jr
IM Windows Live Messenger: foto@alaska.net
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott
Knowlton
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
My mistake, kits are supplied by Wicks.
Scott K
_____
From: flyingscott_k@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be
the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported.
Scott Knowlton
_____
From: foto@alaska.net
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please
contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start,
build, rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation
project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA, and the FAA.
According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any
donation is tax deductible.
I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make
mine.
Thanks!
Rob
EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor
Anchorage, AK
ww.matronics.com/contribution
st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List
ronics.com
_____
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<http://www.messengerbuddies.ca/?ocid=BUDDYOMATICENCA19> today.
ww.matronics.com/contribution
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ronics.com
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Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Oscar,
I think an EA-6B may not be spiritually that far removed from a Piet. After
all, they are both aged, anachronistic aircraft that have continued to find
and ably fill a role our "hi-tech" age. :P
Congrats on your very cool time in the sim. Have a good night,
Ryan
do not archive
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Oscar Zuniga <taildrags@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
....Not to sound like a "top gun" or anything, but earlier this year I was
> very
> fortunate to get time in a EA-6B Prowler simulator at NAS Whidbey Island.
> I had not
> flown anything with that many instruments or controls in many years, and
> yet it's not
> about the knobs and dials; it's about your confidence in command of the
> aircraft.
> Did I goof up? Sure; and I was overwhelmed by all the gadgets and
> procedures, but
> I had stick, rudder, and throttle and all the rest was just gravy. With
> those three
> controls in VERY familiar places, I was able to fly some pretty decent
> maneuvers.
> I flew simulated instrument approaches, approaches to an aircraft carrier
> deck, and
> just plain old maneuvers... in an airplane that was about as different from
> a Piet
> as you can get.
>
> Oscar Zuniga
>
>
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