---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 12/08/08: 48 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:24 AM - List of Contributors 2008 (Matt Dralle) 2. 03:53 AM - Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz (John Franklin) 3. 04:52 AM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 4. 05:42 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Rob Hart) 5. 06:19 AM - Re: to fly or build? (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 6. 06:26 AM - drilling in tight places (TOM STINEMETZE) 7. 06:39 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Scott Knowlton) 8. 06:45 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Gary Boothe) 9. 07:01 AM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 10. 07:01 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Phillips, Jack) 11. 07:04 AM - Re: to fly or build? (Gene & Tammy) 12. 07:31 AM - Re: List of Contributors 2008 (Jeff Boatright) 13. 07:54 AM - to fly or build? (Jim Markle) 14. 08:18 AM - Re: to fly or build? (TOM MICHELLE BRANT) 15. 08:48 AM - Re: Leading edge material (jimd) 16. 09:05 AM - Re: TV Program (Bill Church) 17. 09:20 AM - Re: List of Contributors 2008 (Tim Willis) 18. 09:26 AM - Re: Re: Leading edge material (Michael Perez) 19. 09:48 AM - More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez) 20. 10:04 AM - Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.) 21. 10:16 AM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Scott Knowlton) 22. 10:31 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Gary Boothe) 23. 10:33 AM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Scott Knowlton) 24. 10:45 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Owen Davies) 25. 10:46 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Bill Church) 26. 11:15 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez) 27. 11:19 AM - Re: [!! SPAM] Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez) 28. 11:27 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Jack T. Textor) 29. 11:33 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Thomas Bernie) 30. 11:41 AM - Leading edge shaping.... (Jim Markle) 31. 11:43 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Silvius) 32. 11:52 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Gary Boothe) 33. 02:01 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Bill Church) 34. 02:50 PM - A-65 A75 parts for sale (Steve Singleton) 35. 02:52 PM - Re: to fly or build? (walt) 36. 03:49 PM - Re: Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz (Ben Charvet) 37. 03:50 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez) 38. 05:04 PM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) 39. 05:45 PM - Re: to fly or build? (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 40. 06:11 PM - Re: timely topics (AMsafetyC@aol.com) 41. 06:23 PM - Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Oscar Zuniga) 42. 06:51 PM - to fly or build? (Oscar Zuniga) 43. 07:05 PM - Re: A-65 A75 parts for sale (Jack Phillips) 44. 07:10 PM - Re: to fly or build? (Clif Dawson) 45. 07:19 PM - Re: Pieterse: doing the math (amsafetyc@aol.com) 46. 08:31 PM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.) 47. 08:40 PM - Re: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project (Rob Stapleton, Jr.) 48. 08:58 PM - Re: to fly or build? (Ryan Mueller) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:24:36 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Pietenpol-List: List of Contributors 2008 Dear Listers, This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close and I want to thank everyone that so generously made a contribution this year in support of the Matronics Email List and Forum operation. Your generosity keeps the wheels on this cart and I truly appreciate the many kind words of encouragement and financial reimbursement. If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser, please feel free to do so. The great List Fund Raiser gifts will be available on the Contribution site for a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution today and still get your great gift! Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is: http://www.matronics.com/contribution or by personal check to: Matronics / Matt Dralle PO Box 347 Livermore CA 94551-0347 I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated! And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of Contributors current as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of names as *these* are the people that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! THANK YOU! http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html I will be shipping out all of the gifts around the end of December. In most cases, gifts will be shipped via US Postal Service. Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful! Best regards, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:55 AM PST US From: John Franklin Subject: Pietenpol-List: Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz Piet list, Does anyone know of a source for 1.8 oz dacron fabric in widths greater than 60" ? Aircraft Spruce only has it in 60" width, which isn't quite wide enough for the wing chord on my GN-1. I'm pretty sure Michael Cuy covered his Piet with 1.8 oz fabric. Regards, John F. ________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:52:50 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs old. I have been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60% done with airframe. I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy a 152, and enjoy it while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I will pass the medical, and at the rate I'm going, I may not even get the plane done before my medical is no longer valid. The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said she was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I explained I needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet to do), she had no apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In fact if I do 8 hours a week, she starts getting grumpy. So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it again, I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand, you are well along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go ahead and finish it. You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning on IFR in the Pietenpol? Good luck with whatever decision you make. Boyce ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:42:36 AM PST US From: Rob Hart Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Hi Tom I am an Australian PPL=2C around 180hrs=2C taildragger and aeros endorsemen ts. I fly because I simply love flying. Freedom=2C vistas and aspirations are realised at 1500' which are simply dreamworks at 0' agl. I also fly n o more than 20hrs/year. The 180 hours have taken a while :) Most often I fly with an instructor=2C because 20hrs/year doesn't do enough to keep me c urrent practically=2C even if it keeps me current legally. I have a fuselage 50% complete=3B tail=2C ribs=2C trailing edges=2C wing ti p bows and spars done=3B presently enjoying those curlicues of douglas fir coming off the leading edges from the block plane. I have kids 15=2C 13 and 10=2C and a wife who not only says she buys into t he build=2C but also complains when I haven't told her I'm doing some gluin g (the activity she feels most comfortable with). The plane will be named after her: black cursive letters on a silver cowling: Antonia. My dad=2C a lapsed PPL=2C is 78. Much as I'd love it=2C I don't expect to fly with hi m as the build time left likely exceeds either his life or his ability to g et into the front cockpit. I work as a radiographer in a major hospital her e in Perth=2C Western Australia which includes a normal 76hr fortnight as w ell as on call commitments. Money and time are both tight. I fly because I enjoy flying. I build because I enjoy building. One day I will enjoy flying that which I enjoy building. For me these are mutual sy nergies=2C not competing demands. An hour's flying costs a lot more than a n hour's building=2C but gives me that delight in the air. An hour's build ing=2C although leaving me on the ground watching the local traffic going b y from Jandakot Airport=2C is cheap and contributes to the dream. My glass is half full either way. Best wishes in your deliberations. Just make sure that the nett benefit to your life is always positive. Cheers Rob From: tmbrant@msn.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis t: to fly or build?Date: Sun=2C 7 Dec 2008 22:55:30 -0600 I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private =2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol proj ect sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage abo ut 2/3 complete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I reall y want to work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month wit h regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm c onsidering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in f lying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do stop flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would neve r feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to start han ging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two newly g lued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young...The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000=2C which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flyi ng.Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly be fore they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what i t is.Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opi nions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.Tom B. _________________________________________________________________ Messenger's gift to you! Download free emoticons today! http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669758 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:19:46 AM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom, Obviously this like with us all is a personal choice of finish or fly. the economics are to remain current in a IFR certified 172 you're probably looking at in excess of 100.00 per hour and not going anywhere just punching holes and taking directions form ATC, doesn't sound like too much fun at all. At one point I took my ground school then realized that not having my own IFR certified aircraft means a hefty rental to stay current in something that I really find not nearly as enjoyable as VFR, so I stopped the training. Actually the cash spent on IFR currency applied to the Piet goes further as there are many things you can purchase during the build process for less than 1 hours in the IFR Cessna while advancing the progress on your build. For my purposes I am out of my currency but building like gang busters. I figure to regain my currency while getting my tail wheel endorsement and killing those two birds with one stone. Its not a perfect solution, just my plan, all in all I am loving the build , missing the flying but its gratification and the sooner I finish, the sooner I get back in the air so I get the satisfaction of the build process, the proud of the project and an airplane I can fly all the time at the end of the process. Not a bad trade off in my mind. John In a message dated 12/8/2008 1:06:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, rmueller23@gmail.com writes: Tom, First off, just out of curiosity, is Michelle your better half or your middle name? ;) I'm not speaking from experience on most (if any) of this, but here are my opinions on what you had to say. It seems there are two main issues you are having. One issue is whether or not you will get back to flying if you build the Piet by diverting the available aviation funds towards the Piet. I would think that if you like flying you will get back into it when you complete your Piet. Could you imagine spending the time, money, sweat equity, etc on completing your Piet and then saying: "meh, I just don't want to fly"? I would think you would be even more jazzed up to fly after you finish your Piet! As far as the worry about being safe in an IFR environment, that's simple. Before you started flight training/IFR training you probably knew little about it. But you learned and mastered the intricacies well enough to earn your rating. As such, becoming current with your IFR rating after a prolonged lack of use should now be even easier that it was to earn it in the first place, because you are just refreshing and not learning from scratch. Finally, you address the fact that there are members of your family that you would like to share the Piet with before they pass on; to me that is an easy one. If it's between attempting to maintain IFR currency (especially if that is not critical to your income), or completing the Pietenpol that both yourself and your aged relatives want to see fly, I'd go with the Piet. We only have one go around on this planet. Personally I would choose to do the thing that I felt would enrich my life and the lives of my loved ones the most. You may have many other opportunities to brush up on your ratings, but how many chances will you have to share a Piet with those you care about? Take the above with a grain of salt. I've not learned or experienced anywhere near as much as most on this list; those are just my thoughts based on what you had to say. Have a good evening, and good luck with whatever you choose to do! Ryan On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:55 PM, TOM MICHELLE BRANT <_tmbrant@msn.com_ (mailto:tmbrant@msn.com) > wrote: I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private, instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe, especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young... The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying. Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it is. Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations. Tom B. (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:26:55 AM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Pietenpol-List: drilling in tight places To all who contributed thoughts to my question about drilling in tight places - THANKS A BUNCH! Mean it! Actually, I already have some long drill bits which I had totally forgotten about and they have enough flex to do the job, especially when a pre-drilled block is clamped in place to assure alignment. Also, I had not thought to go to the EAA Builder's Tips videos. What a wealth of information and those fancy modern moving pictures are so much easier to understand than just words. Makes me proud to be a part of this list. Tom B. You will kick yourself later if you quit flying or building. The IFR ticket is information and training that you will never be sorry you have but it will never give you the enjoyment of low and slow flying in a Piet. Just take your time and enjoy the building and the occasional flying. Never rush the building or you will end up doing something that you will have to tear out and redo later. (Voice of experience.) Take lots of photos and let the oldsters share in the joy of building even if they don't get to experience the final product. (That's my Mom in my case.) Let the children sit in the shell and make airplane noises to their hearts content. (grandkids in my case) Sucker - eh - cajole - eh - ASK your wife to help once in a while so she can feel a part of the project also. You don't want her to think of your airplane as a mistress. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS do not archive ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:47 AM PST US From: Scott Knowlton Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom=2C I suppose all of us share your dilemna of trying to justify the time and ex pense that we devote to our passion for flying. If I can add my two cents here=2C I am a professional pilot who was in your position with a fresh IFR ticket and plans to build a Piet over 12 years ago (with a two year old so n in toe). My instrument rating was to be my meal ticket so there was no q uestion of whether that was going to lapse or not. This being the case=2C some of my ambitious plans had to be temporarily shelved in favour of my wo rk and family obligations. Life went on=2C I moved ahead in my flying care er but the Piet consisted of a mailing tube with a couple of dusty manuals in my workshop. Beaming ahead=2C my son (having grown to nine years old) a nd I drove to and camped at Brodhead. With a little more time on my hands and a little better disposable income=2C I felt I could "unshelve" my Piet plans and start the building process. The tradition of Brodhead continued for the past five years and for my boy and I it is truly a father and son b onding experience. We listen to William Wynn's inspiring=2C "Get in the Ar ena" presentations=2C go for an annual ride in a Piet with Chuck G=2C take lots of pictures and stay up late by the fire listening to different builde rs and flyers of my favorite little airplane. As far as building goes=2C w e have made a rib jig and about 14 cool looking ribs. I don't have much to show for my 12 years of effort but that's OK. We all have this burden cal led life that we have to contend with and it takes a certain amount of driv e out of our passion. I suppose I divide things into two categories=3B thi ngs I need to do and things I'd like to do. I need to go to work=2C pay my bills=2C watch my boy's football games=2C take my bride on holidays and sa ve for my retirement. The Piet falls into the like to do category that ten ds to slide forward anytime a need to do gets in the way. Nevertheless=2C I think I will fly my bird to Brodhead one day (or maybe sh are the trip trading places with my son in the chase car...) but it would o nly be a frustration to put a date or year on when the event will transpire . In the meantime=2C my project is something that I attend to when I want to relax or spend some quality time with my boy. Most things that we do ha ve a timeline attached to them and these deadlines are the stress inducers in life. I don't want my piet project to be lumped into that category. Aviation is an expesnsive hobby and one which should be approached with a f ocus if someone has to budget time and money (which most of us do). Your I FR ticket=2C unless you use it very frequently will probably become a burde n if you chose to keep it current. It will take you away from your family and the return (the ability to fly in less than VFR weather conditions) pro bably won't be worth the investment. Your pietenpol=2C however=2C is a pro ject of so many different aspects that it could very easily reflect the dif ferent phases of your life (slow progress while your family is young - perh aps a late hour or two in the shop after the youngsters are asleep) with an increase in activity as your family grows seeing you spend time with your kids in the shop. No chore of building here=2C just relaxation and enjoyme nt as the parts and pieces of your airplane are slowly manufactured. In sum=2C I think your project would be much easier to dust off and get bac k into than a rating which really isn't necessary to be proficient at unles s you have a huge need to go somewhere anytime in any weather ("any wheathe r" should be taken loosely unless you fly a bird equipped for known ice=2C have a good weather radar=2C oxygen or pressurization......). Basic VFR fl ying skills are something you will always have and dusting those off would consist of a fun five our checkout in a champ or cub in preparation for the maiden flight of your piet! Just my thoughts on your situation. Scott Knowlton From: tmbrant@msn.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis t: to fly or build?Date: Sun=2C 7 Dec 2008 22:55:30 -0600 I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private =2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol proj ect sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage abo ut 2/3 complete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I reall y want to work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month wit h regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm c onsidering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in f lying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do stop flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would neve r feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to start han ging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two newly g lued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young...The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000=2C which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flyi ng.Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly be fore they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what i t is.Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opi nions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations.Tom B. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 06:45:50 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom, Remember, you're talking to a group of Builders. We're all going to say how much fun it is to build. If you were to log on to the IFR Matronics chat group (if there were such a thing), they would all say, "What could be more fun and personally satisfying than doing endless math while never being able to see the ground?" I cannot imagine the amount of concentration that it must take to build with a 2 yr old bumping around in the garage. My 7 yr old grandson pretty much stops me from doing anything when he's visiting, but I think that's a result of an aging mind and persona vs. a younger person, such as you. Anyhow, what I really wanted to say is that some of the best memories as a young adult that I have are flying with my Dad. He past away last March, and when he realized that he wasn't going to see the end of my project (a 35 year dream), he said that he wanted a ride.alive or dead. There will be many joys associated with finishing and flying this, but there will always be that sadness. I applaud you for having the introspect to ask the question. Consider this: Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years to complete, your son will always see you as the Man who had a dream and saw it through; plus, you will have many years of enjoyable flying with your son, and possibly plant the seed of a dream in him. Don't worry about your currency. That will come back in a hurry. Besides, as someone else alluded to, the Pietenpol is not a good platform for IFR; unless you need it just to get in and out of your airport. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of TOM MICHELLE BRANT Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 8:56 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private, instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe, especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young... The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying. Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it is. Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:01:21 AM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? In a message dated 12/8/2008 9:47:08 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, gboothe5@comcast.net writes: Whether it takes 2 years or 10 years to complete, your son will always see you as the Man who had a dream and saw it through; plus, you will have many years of enjoyable flying with your son, and possibly plant the seed of a dream in him. Great point Gary! That's the one thing I hope for. Whether I continue to pass medicals or not, I want my kids to see that if you set your mind to something and stick to it, you can do anything. And, if I can't keep my medical, then hopefully one of my three kids will take up flying, and I can pass the plane off on them! Boyce Mustang II ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 07:01:21 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? From: "Phillips, Jack" Good post, Scott. I agree with what you're saying about the IFR ticket. Unless you fly real instrument conditions frequently, the IFR ticket is somewhat of a burden to maintain, and a potential trap if you think "I'm instrument rated. I can make this trip, even though the forecast is down to minimums and I haven't flown an ILS in 5 months." Those are the guys that end up as statistics. I got my instrument rating while I was finishing my Pietenpol. In the 4-1/2 years since I got it, I have made exactly one approach under actual instrument conditions, and that was on the way back from my instrument checkride, when I was as sharp as I'll ever be (and the airport was IFR, but well above minimums). I got the IFR ticket so I could get my Commercial, and got that so I can get my CFI ticket. Who wants to fly instruments in a Pietenpol? On the way back from Brodhead this year, I found myself on top of an unforecast overcast. I flew above it long enough to assure myself that it went a long way, and then when it started building up around me, I did a 180 and went back to my last stop. No fun flying through that stuff with nothing but an altimeter, an airpseed indicator and a turn & bank. Tom, you need to remember that finishing the Pietenpol is not a race. It is about creating something that you can actually fly, and fly pretty cheaply once you get it finished. I would keep going on the Piet, and let the instrument currency lapse. You can always pick it up later with a proficiency check if and when you can afford to fly an airplane with enough instruments to do so. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Knowlton Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:40 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom, I suppose all of us share your dilemna of trying to justify the time and expense that we devote to our passion for flying. If I can add my two cents here, I am a professional pilot who was in your position with a fresh IFR ticket and plans to build a Piet over 12 years ago (with a two year old son in toe). My instrument rating was to be my meal ticket so there was no question of whether that was going to lapse or not. This being the case, some of my ambitious plans had to be temporarily shelved in favour of my work and family obligations. Life went on, I moved ahead in my flying career but the Piet consisted of a mailing tube with a couple of dusty manuals in my workshop. Beaming ahead, my son (having grown to nine years old) and I drove to and camped at Brodhead. With a little more time on my hands and a little better disposable income, I felt I could "unshelve" my Piet plans and start the building process. The tradition of Brodhead continued for the past five years and for my boy and I it is truly a father and son bonding experience. We listen to William Wynn's inspiring, "Get in the Arena" presentations, go for an annual ride in a Piet with Chuck G, take lots of pictures and stay up late by the fire listening to different builders and flyers of my favorite little airplane. As far as building goes, we have made a rib jig and about 14 cool looking ribs. I don't have much to show for my 12 years of effort but that's OK. We all have this burden called life that we have to contend with and it takes a certain amount of drive out of our passion. I suppose I divide things into two categories; things I need to do and things I'd like to do. I need to go to work, pay my bills, watch my boy's football games, take my bride on holidays and save for my retirement. The Piet falls into the like to do category that tends to slide forward anytime a need to do gets in the way. Nevertheless, I think I will fly my bird to Brodhead one day (or maybe share the trip trading places with my son in the chase car...) but it would only be a frustration to put a date or year on when the event will transpire. In the meantime, my project is something that I attend to when I want to relax or spend some quality time with my boy. Most things that we do have a timeline attached to them and these deadlines are the stress inducers in life. I don't want my piet project to be lumped into that category. Aviation is an expesnsive hobby and one which should be approached with a focus if someone has to budget time and money (which most of us do). Your IFR ticket, unless you use it very frequently will probably become a burden if you chose to keep it current. It will take you away from your family and the return (the ability to fly in less than VFR weather conditions) probably won't be worth the investment. Your pietenpol, however, is a project of so many different aspects that it could very easily reflect the different phases of your life (slow progress while your family is young - perhaps a late hour or two in the shop after the youngsters are asleep) with an increase in activity as your family grows seeing you spend time with your kids in the shop. No chore of building here, just relaxation and enjoyment as the parts and pieces of your airplane are slowly manufactured. In sum, I think your project would be much easier to dust off and get back into than a rating which really isn't necessary to be proficient at unless you have a huge need to go somewhere anytime in any weather ("any wheather" should be taken loosely unless you fly a bird equipped for known ice, have a good weather radar, oxygen or pressurization......). Basic VFR flying skills are something you will always have and dusting those off would consist of a fun five our checkout in a champ or cub in preparation for the maiden flight of your piet! Just my thoughts on your situation. Scott Knowlton _____ From: tmbrant@msn.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I know, it's been a topic here before, but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off, I'm a private, instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years, I've really had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year, mostly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to stay safe, especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time, in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is, I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit for about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 complete, wing ribs done, tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered most of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it, but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is, that if I do stop flying, that I may never get back into it, and if I do, I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year old is real smart but very impatient, so I'm not sure if he's ready to start hanging around in the shop with me, unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him, just that he'd pick up two newly glued pieces of wood, right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young... The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000, which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate, I probably spend about $2500/year on flying. Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my families health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly before they "go" and they want that too. Obviously, we never know if we'll see tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it is. Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations. Tom B. ww.matronics.com/contribution st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com _____ _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 07:04:57 AM PST US From: "Gene & Tammy" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Tom. Only you can answer your own questions. In my mind these are the questions you need to answer. 1. IFR and Pietenpol??? I don't understand. 2. IFR and 20 hrs a year? What a wonderful way to kill yourself and anyone that flys with you. 3. To build or fly?? Do you LOVE building or do you LOVE flying? If your building just to have a cheap airplane, your building for the wrong reason. As for me (and only for me) here's what I would do.....First of all my family would come first. Flying would come next (I'd forget about IFR as I can't for the life of me understand why anybody would want to fly in a cloud and not be able to see mother earth). AND, because I do like to build things but don't have the most free time or money, I would continue building as I had the free time and money. So what if I didn't finish the Piet for 10 or 20 years? As for having your family see you fly it before they "go", I'll bet they would much rather see you with a happy family and a smile on your face than a pile of sticks and fabric in the air. Sometimes we just can't have it all. Gene ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 07:31:24 AM PST US From: Jeff Boatright Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: List of Contributors 2008 Matt, Thanks so much for creating a great set of forums and other services for the aviation community. I assume that the list of contributors includes members from all of the Matronics list? By my count, that's over 4,000 people (assuming some overlap). I see that that are 1,041 names on the 2008 List of Contributors... Best wishes for 2009, Jeff > >Dear Listers, > >This year's Fund Raiser has drawn to a close... > >If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's >Fund Raiser, please feel free to do so....Contribution web site is: > > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > >or by personal check to: > > Matronics / Matt Dralle > PO Box 347 > Livermore CA 94551-0347 > > >I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( >http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Jon Croke of HomebuiltHELP ( >http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( >http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support >during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of >discounted merchandise. These are great guys that support the >aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a >look at their products. Thank you Andy, Jon and Bob!! Your support >is very much appreciated! > >And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2008 List of >Contributors current as of 12/7/08! Have a look at this list of >names as *these* are the people that make all of these List services >possible! I can't thank each of you enough for your support and >great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser! > >THANK YOU! > > http://www.matronics.com/loc/2008.html > ... ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:54:00 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Wow, you sure got a lot of great feedback on this question. Isn't this list is great?! But that's now....what about those times when you're all alone, have a half finished project in the shop and the list isn't available to encourage you? I don't know about you but I hate starting projects and "losing interest" and ending up with some half finished project I had to sell or whatever because "life got in the way" or "family got in the way" or some other excuse. Yes, many times life pushes us into some other priority (I know that first hand!) but don't start something you might have to make excuses for later... I obviously have only a tiny idea of your personality so I'll base my answer ONLY on MY personality. If I was asking questions like you just asked, anyone who knows me would tell me to forget about builidng anything and go buy an old 150 and enjoy my love of flying. I've seen a lot of builders spend some time building and a LOT of time selling off their half done project. So for me personally, the decision to build or fly was in my heart long before I even talked to anyone or flew in a Piet or any other type of homebuilt for that matter. I didn't have to ask anyone (well, I had to make sure my wife supported it but by the time we had talked about it I was actually believing it was ME that said it was ok!!). Do you love flying? Then go fly. Are you wondering whether to fly or build? Put that on hold for a while. You already know it's not safe to continue IFR activities on a few hours a year so leave that one. Just go fly and if building is in your heart, you won't have to ask anyone. You'll know. Jim in Pryor OK ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 08:18:32 AM PST US From: TOM MICHELLE BRANT Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Thanks to everyone who offered their opinions on my soul searching question s. For those of you who commented on IFR in a Piet=2C no worries=2C that was n ever my intent. It's just something that I fought real hard to get (IFR ra ting) and someday would like to pick back up. I think I've answered my own question=2C and most of you confirmed it. I d o love to fly both VFR and IFR. I also love to build and I've been missing it dearly. What I didn't say is that I've already had somewhat of a hiatu s from flying because our hangar burnt down and we were without a plane for quite a while. When we finally got another plane=2C I was excited to go o ut and fly it and get my IPC and keep flying my 10-20 hours a year=2C but a s some of you said=2C the IFR rating becomes a burden - something you're al ways having to work on if you're not using it regularly. So I found myself just going out and doing local approaches under the hood with safety pilot s - it got boring. So=2C I've been posing this question of hanging it up ( temporarily hopefully) for quite a while now internally. I guess I just ne eded to hear it from other people=2C I don't know why. I'm also not putting some unrealistic deadline on building but I do have a goal in mind. April. Not sure what year but some year=2C it will be done in April =3B ) I hope all of you know the consequences of encouraging me to continue to bu ild - it means I'll be on here asking all sorts of funny questions. For a while now=2C I've really wanted to get the materials to build the spars=2C but as my original post says=2C I kept flying and the money has always held me up. So I think I'll make the call to drop flying for now and start bui lding again. Thanks again guys (and gals if there are any). Tom B. From: tmbrant@msn.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I know=2C it's been a topic here before=2C but I wanted to share a dilemma I'm facing currently and get others opinions. First off=2C I'm a private =2C instrument rated pilot with about 350 hours. In recent years=2C I've r eally had to cut my flying back to probably less than 20 hours/year=2C most ly due to finances. I'm beginning to question whether this is enough to st ay safe=2C especially in the IFR environment. I don't have a lot of cloud time=2C in fact it was only a year ago that I got the IFR rating. Trouble is=2C I don't really go anywhere - how can I when I only fly an hour or so a month? For similar reasons (finance and time) I've let my Pietenpol project sit fo r about 2-3 years without touching it. I've got the fuselage about 2/3 com plete=2C wing ribs done=2C tail section is 90% complete and I've gathered m ost of the components for the corvair engine conversion. I really want to work on it=2C but I can't really afford to do much each month with regards to finances and mostly lack of time (I have a 2 year old). I'm considering stopping flying altogether so that the money I am investing in flying is being invested into my Pietenpol. My fear is=2C that if I do stop flying=2C that I may never get back into it=2C and if I do=2C I would never feel confortable flying IFR again with such a "break". My 2 year ol d is real smart but very impatient=2C so I'm not sure if he's ready to star t hanging around in the shop with me=2C unless I'm doing real basic stuff. Not that I'm afraid to run saw around him=2C just that he'd pick up two ne wly glued pieces of wood=2C right out of a jig and run around with it like a toy - oh to be young... The best rough guess I have to finish my Piet is about $5000-$7000=2C which would take a few years (at the rate I've been flying) to come up with. At this rate=2C I probably spend about $2500/year on flying. Other than the obvious motivations for completing the Piet is some of my fa milies health. I really want to complete it and have them see if fly befor e they "go" and they want that too. Obviously=2C we never know if we'll se e tomorrow so it may be a worthless goal to chase after but it is what it i s. Anyway=2C thanks for listening to me rant. I would appreciate any opinions / recommendations of people who've faced similar situations. Tom B. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 08:48:24 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Leading edge material From: "jimd" I tried using a variety of hand planes and couldn't get something consistent enough to be able to attach plywood the full length of it and have it smooth enough for a leading edge. Ended up getting a custom molding shop to make a cutter to do the work. Then had two perfect pieces made. Cost about $240, but its exactly right. (I am building a biplane variant of the piet, and it was for the lower wing's leading edges, so the size is a bit smaller, else I would point to the shop that did it for me, as most the cost was the custom cutter.) Have Okume plywood from Boulter's ($23 a sheet) to cover it, and hope to get that done soon as part of my Christmas break. JimD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218225#218225 ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 09:05:42 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: TV Program Alan, The scenes you mentioned were, indeed, featuring a Pietenpol Air Camper (magically flying a dozen or so years before it was even designed). A couple of years ago, the owner/pilot, Shawn Wolk posted a message to the list, saying that he was asked to fly his Piet for the filming of this documentary film. Shawn's Piet is one of (if not THE) oldest Pietenpols flying in Canada - originally built in 1933. Here's a couple of links to the postings: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=17317 and http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=18380 Bill C. ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 09:20:53 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: List of Contributors 2008 This is a great list, all right, and without it, I would never have had anything to do with Pietenpols. The help from Piet builders and fliers on this board is just excellent. For instance, today I am working on two items, each essential for me, using MODS from MEMBERS on the site. Here are some specifics: 1. fabbing a "V" and coil spring tailwheel setup to replace former Model T spring, etc., using Jack Phillips' excellent mods. [A fat boy, I need to lose all the rearwards CG moment I can.] 2. finish welding the pilot shoulder harness attachment assy., of my own modification, based on designs of others on the board. [This is to save my damaged back from compression.] I will send pix of the assy. 3. Thereafter I will use Chuck Gantzer's design for a fiberglass "headrest" to enclose the ugly tubing and strap of the harness and assy. I am measuring templates for that now-- using cereal boxes, cheap b____d that I am. 4. Soon after I read another of Oscar's flying episodes, I head to the garage to work on the Piet. I remain slower than Christmas, but some Piet work every day, and I have not screwed anything up yet (that I know, at least). Thanks to all you guys. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Boatright >Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:30 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: List of Contributors 2008 > > >Matt, > >Thanks so much for creating a great set of forums and other services >for the aviation community. > >I assume that the list of contributors includes members from all of >the Matronics list? By my count, that's over 4,000 people (assuming >some overlap). I see that that are 1,041 names on the 2008 List of >Contributors... > >Best wishes for 2009, > >Jeff ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 09:26:54 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Leading edge material Bill, that half round idea is just that, an idea. I haven't settled on anything yet. Open to any/all ideas as always. I do have another question about leading edges that I will post soon. Thanks for the info. ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 09:48:52 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my half- round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an item. N ow hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and so the re is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood. - I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply. W hy so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other th en just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did no t go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down some at-the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but t he fabric sags between the ribs anyway. - Thinking about this plywood and the-leading edge itself, I wonder why bot h? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the le ading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area? Woul d this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? -Picture what you ma y have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the ply. What has changed? What have you lost?- Maybe some type of conncetor piec e(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a-flat piece att ached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leadi ng edge. - I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it makes sense. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 10:04:02 AM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start, build, rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA, and the FAA. According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any donation is tax deductible. I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make mine. Thanks! Rob EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor Anchorage, AK ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 10:16:59 AM PST US From: Scott Knowlton Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported. Scott Knowlton From: foto@alaska.netTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis t: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 09: 03:17 -0900 If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start=2C bu ild=2C rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA=2C and the FAA. According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any do nation is tax deductible. I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make m ine. Thanks! Rob EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor Anchorage=2C AK _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 10:31:40 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Michael, Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I recall discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading edge profile, plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect of a tear in the fabric on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (& Cubs and Aeronca's too, I imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs, and a thin sheet of aluminum over the nose of the ribs, from the bottom of the spar to the top of the spar, covered with fabric. I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I'm not sure how it could be best attached. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood. I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply. Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down some at the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but the fabric sags between the ribs anyway. Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why both? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area? Would this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? Picture what you may have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the ply. What has changed? What have you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor piece(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a flat piece attached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leading edge. I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it makes sense. Thanks. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 10:33:24 AM PST US From: Scott Knowlton Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project My mistake=2C kits are supplied by Wicks. Scott K From: flyingscott_k@hotmail.comTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 13:16:06 -0500 Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported. Scot t Knowlton From: foto@alaska.netTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.comSubject: Pietenpol-Lis t: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane ProjectDate: Mon=2C 8 Dec 2008 09: 03:17 -0900 If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start=2C bu ild=2C rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA=2C and the FAA. According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any do nation is tax deductible. I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make m ine. Thanks! Rob EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor Anchorage=2C AK ww.matronics.com/contribution st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com Win a trip with your 3 best buddies. Enter today. _________________________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 10:45:47 AM PST US From: Owen Davies Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas > Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why both? Wouldn't surprise me if it was because the original leading edge was made from cardboard. Given how many other airplanes use only the plywood D-cell, it should be plenty strong enough. Note that my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. I'm not an engineer or an A&P. Owen ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:21 AM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Michael, The leading edge is an important part of the airfoil. Change the leading edge profile, and you change the airfoil. Change the airfoil and you change the performance of the plane. So, while it may be possible to build your ribs with a full airfoil shape (as opposed to the flat front ribs, with a seperate leading edge, per the plans), and then wrap the front section with plywood, you would still want to put something behind that plywood, for strength and resistance to impact (like say, flying into a bird). This could be, like you say, some kind of connector piece between each rib. So now, the question becomes "Why would you want to do this?" Sounds like a whole bunch of extra work, with absolutely no obvious benefit (unless I'm missing something here). Usually design changes like this are investigated and carried out by someone with a strong background in aircraft design. That ain't me. I think this is an example of "Do what you know, and know what you do." I wouldn't do this one. Bill C. ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 11:15:52 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas I do not believe, that wrapping plywood around the front of the ribs-chan ges the shape from having a leading edge in there. I believe if the plywood is epoxied to the bottom of the rib, then bent up around to the top and ep oxied the whole way to the front spar, that would automatically form a nice flowing leading edge that blends perfectly with the bottom and top angles of the rib cap strips. (Preform the plywood-somewhat like we did our rib cap strips.) Epoxy this plywood to each rib, every 12" or so, (rib spacing) the same way, and I would bet it will be as strong as having the extra len gth of leading edge wood strip in there. Impact resistance I wonder about. Anything can happen, but if we planned for everything then our planes would be made of sheet steel. Has anyone had a bird strike with their Piet.? (Or any other in air impact? That would be quite the story! - Again, not trying to argue, just sharing my thoughts. I may make up a full size mock up with my spare ribs and try to put this together and see how it measures up. I am curious to see how strong 1/16" plywood bent like this s tands up to frontal abuse. - Thanks Bill. - ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:43 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: [!! SPAM] RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Thanks Owen. I wondered if any other planes may use this open D cell type leading edge. My ribs are built to plans so I have the flat up front for the leading edge to attach to. I am curious if I can just wrap with the plywood and not use the leading edge piece. Bill C. alluded to making full shape ribs, this is not my plan. I would use the ribs as is, with the plywood only. Curious... ________________________________ Message 28 ____________________________________ Time: 11:27:25 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas From: "Jack T. Textor" Bird strikes, yes, but from behind Bill Do not archive Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 29 ____________________________________ Time: 11:33:37 AM PST US From: Thomas Bernie Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Guys, I did the aluminum method -- leading edge material from AS. Very difficult getting it formed around the leading edge, but cargo straps helped. Attached with small PK screws. Regards, Tom Bernie Gloucester, Mass On Dec 8, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: > Michael, > > Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I > recall discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading > edge profile, plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect > of a tear in the fabric on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (& > Cubs and Aeronca=92s too, I imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs, > and a thin sheet of aluminum over the nose of the ribs, from the > bottom of the spar to the top of the spar, covered with fabric. > > I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I=92m not sure how it > could be best attached. > > Gary Boothe > Cool, Ca. > Pietenpol > WW Corvair Conversion > Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) > (12 ribs down=85) > From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of Michael Perez > Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM > To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com > Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas > > Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to > my half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need > such an item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way > the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied > together at the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow > over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood. > > I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the > ply. Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal > area other then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. > I guess if I did not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would > pull the ply wood down some at the back edge, giving a little sunken > in area between the ribs, but the fabric sags between the ribs anyway. > > Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder > why both? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply > to form the leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong > enough frontal area? Would this not tie all the rib fronts together > properly? Picture what you may have now, and picture removing only > the hard leading edge inside the ply. What has changed? What have > you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor piece(s) can be made to go > between each rib at the front, or a flat piece attached to the front > of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leading edge. > > I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys > think. I am considering this path for my leading edge construction > and wonder if it makes sense. Thanks. > Thomas Bernie tsbe ________________________________ Message 30 ____________________________________ Time: 11:41:49 AM PST US From: "Jim Markle" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Leading edge shaping.... With a couple of cuts on a table saw (2 on top, 2 on bottom) the LE can really easily be preshaped for sanding and planing. Additionally, I lowered the saw blade and cut one last notch on the top surface, about 1/16" deep to allow the 1/16" ply to fit into. Attached pic isn't too good but maybe the idea comes across. Seemed like a really simple way to give the ply a spot to attach and keep a nice clean airfoil (like my flying skills will require a perfect airfoil!). I laminted the entire LE from scraps of Spruce as can be seen in the dark glue line. My .02 Jim in Pryor OK ________________________________ Message 31 ____________________________________ Time: 11:43:22 AM PST US From: "Michael Silvius" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Michael: FWIW, my Flaconar F-12 is done just like that and cruises just about twice as fast as the Piet. Michael in Maine ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood. ________________________________ Message 32 ____________________________________ Time: 11:52:24 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Tom, What appears to be most impressive is your ingenious use of attic space!! Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) Do not archive _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Thomas Bernie Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:29 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Guys, I did the aluminum method -- leading edge material from AS. Very difficult getting it formed around the leading edge, but cargo straps helped. Attached with small PK screws. Regards, Tom Bernie Gloucester, Mass On Dec 8, 2008, at 1:28 PM, Gary Boothe wrote: Michael, Interesting questions. Reaching waaaay back to my A&P training, I recall discussion about how important it is to maintain the leading edge profile, plus offer sturdy design (can you imagine the effect of a tear in the fabric on the leading edge?). The Taylorcrafts (& Cubs and Aeronca's too, I imagine) used wood spars, aluminum ribs, and a thin sheet of aluminum over the nose of the ribs, from the bottom of the spar to the top of the spar, covered with fabric. I guess aluminum could be used on a Piet, but I'm not sure how it could be best attached. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:48 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas Well, thinking about leading edges and how to make them, led me to my half-round idea in my other post. I am now wondering why we need such an item. Now hold on, let me explain. It seems to me the way the Piet leading edge is made now is so that all the ribs are tied together at the front and so there is a nice lead-in for the airflow over the wing. This is then covered by the 1/16" ply wood. I see most, if not all, go all the way up to the front spar with the ply. Why so far? I can understand wanting something on that frontal area other then just fabric, but to go so far back seems a bit much. I guess if I did not go that far back, that maybe the fabric would pull the ply wood down some at the back edge, giving a little sunken in area between the ribs, but the fabric sags between the ribs anyway. Thinking about this plywood and the leading edge itself, I wonder why both? Why not wrap the ribs with the ply only and allow the ply to form the leading edge shape/form? Would this not be a strong enough frontal area? Would this not tie all the rib fronts together properly? Picture what you may have now, and picture removing only the hard leading edge inside the ply. What has changed? What have you lost? Maybe some type of conncetor piece(s) can be made to go between each rib at the front, or a flat piece attached to the front of all the ribs, then wrap the plywood to form the leading edge. I know this may seem odd to some, but I like to hear what you guys think. I am considering this path for my leading edge construction and wonder if it makes sense. Thanks. http://forums.matronics.com Thomas Bernie tsbe ________________________________ Message 33 ____________________________________ Time: 02:01:44 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas So, how would one maintain the shape of the leading edge plywood if it is unsupported? I agree that the plywood would automatically form "a shape". Smooth, yes, but would that shape be the shape you want/need? Without a former to hold the shape, you're at the mercy of however the wood bends. That was the reason why I mentioned the full profile wing rib - then you would have something for the wood to wrap around. I'm not trying to argue either. I just don't see any advantage to what you're proposing. I would imagine that cost savings (if any) would be minimal. It definitely sounds like more work to me. Just a side note here, but the original Pietenpol plans do not have plywood sheeting on the bottom of the rib leading edge - just on the top side. Not sure what the requirements are in the US, but up in Canada, if the ply was installed top and bottom, back to the spar, a builder would have to have a separate inspection done before closing in that area (like a box beam) in addition to the pre-cover inspection. That extra inspection will cost the builder a few hundred bucks. If you do build a mock-up to test the bent plywood for impact resistance, remember to throw the seagull at the leading edge at about 75 mph. Bill C. _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 2:14 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas I do not believe, that wrapping plywood around the front of the ribs changes the shape from having a leading edge in there. I believe if the plywood is epoxied to the bottom of the rib, then bent up around to the top and epoxied the whole way to the front spar, that would automatically form a nice flowing leading edge that blends perfectly with the bottom and top angles of the rib cap strips. (Preform the plywood somewhat like we did our rib cap strips.) Epoxy this plywood to each rib, every 12" or so, (rib spacing) the same way, and I would bet it will be as strong as having the extra length of leading edge wood strip in there. Impact resistance I wonder about. Anything can happen, but if we planned for everything then our planes would be made of sheet steel. Has anyone had a bird strike with their Piet.? (Or any other in air impact? That would be quite the story! Again, not trying to argue, just sharing my thoughts. I may make up a full size mock up with my spare ribs and try to put this together and see how it measures up. I am curious to see how strong 1/16" plywood bent like this stands up to frontal abuse. Thanks Bill. ________________________________ Message 34 ____________________________________ Time: 02:50:39 PM PST US From: "Steve Singleton" Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 A75 parts for sale Since we sold our Champ and i'm going to concentrate on building the Piet i'm going to sell some spare motor parts i have. I'll be useing a Model A so want to sell these to help finance the Piet. If anyone is interested in 4 good steel cylinders (good cores)only have the steel valves, a good tapered shaft prop hub, a set of bushings for a McCaulley prop, Crankshaft and camshaft gears, The prop hub is good, we had to replace the crank and was able to find a good flanged crank so don't need the hub. My A/P motor guy felt that these clyinders would just need Honed along with checking the seats and guides. I'm sure i have some more misc. parts but will need to look. I'm located in northern MO. Would gladly trade for Birch plywood for the Piet. I still have the Crank but it would have to go twenty under to be any good. Since i'm into the Piet i thought i'd make these available to the Piet crowd first. Let me know if you'd like to make an offer on these. I can email pics. 660 565 2936----Cell 660 214 0029, please leave a message if i don't answer. Steve Singleton ________________________________ Message 35 ____________________________________ Time: 02:52:03 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Boyce, I'm only responding to your email cause I saw yours first. I've been a PPSEL since 1966. Didn't get into the building thing till my kids were grown. And I have 3 of the greatest kids in the world. Now I have a beautiful Pietenpol in the hanger that I can fly anytime I'm divorced, and my Ex left, so I raised my kids from young, and with all the housework and grocerys, and overtime, I missed the time I should have had with my kids. Now that I have 4 going on 5 Grandchildren. I cherish my time with my grandkids. Guess my point is,,,there's plenty of time to build when the kids are grown. Don't Plan time away to build,,,,Only build when there is nothing else to do, or the kids are asleep and the wife is shopping. POINT...You can never relive time with your kids! If I came off like a nut,,sorry. I'm done with my soapbox.....:^) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs old. I have been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60% done with airframe. I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy a 152, and enjoy it while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I will pass the medical, and at the rate I'm going, I may not even get the plane done before my medical is no longer valid. The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said she was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I explained I needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet to do), she had no apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In fact if I do 8 hours a week, she starts getting grumpy. So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it again, I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand, you are well along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go ahead and finish it. You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning on IFR in the Pietenpol? Good luck with whatever decision you make. Boyce ________________________________ Message 36 ____________________________________ Time: 03:49:40 PM PST US From: Ben Charvet Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Dacron fabric, 1.8 oz I got mine from Wicks, just a few months ago. 7 inches wide, non certified 1.7 oz. Try this link: http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_detail.php?pid=12003 The part # is SF104ANON, $5.85 a yard Ben Charvet John Franklin wrote: > > Piet list, > > Does anyone know of a source for 1.8 oz dacron fabric in widths greater than 60" ? Aircraft Spruce only has it in 60" width, which isn't quite wide enough for the wing chord on my GN-1. I'm pretty sure Michael Cuy covered his Piet with 1.8 oz fabric. > > Regards, > John F. > > ________________________________ Message 37 ____________________________________ Time: 03:50:20 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas I believe the top cap strip and the bottom cap strip of the ribs, when the ply wood is epoxied and held in place, will automatically form the leading edge curve. We are not talking about a large unsupported area here. It is o nly the space between the top and bottom cap strips, forward. The angles of these strips dictate how the plywood curves around the front top and botto m.- This gets repeated every 12" or so across the entire wing. I would th ink that would be pretty strong. If at the front of the ribs, say you have a 2.5" flat area as I do. (top cap strip to bottom cap strip.) If you take a piece of plywood and secure it along the top cap strip of the rib from th e spar forward, as you would anyway, then bend it around that 2.5" flat, an d secure it to the bottom cap strip a few inches along the rib, how differe nt can the shape be? The cap strip angles, dictate that curve. We all have the plans, so we could slide the ply forward/back to get the curve that matches the prints, yes? Now you have this plywood bent so that-it curves out forward into the on coming air. What type of impact will be requ ired to smash it backwards? I am not sure, I think whatever hits it may jus t come apart. - If no one has had a midair in a Pietenpol of any sort, how do we know how a normal leading edge holds up? If a seagull were to hit a Piet at 75 MPH, w hat happens to it?- (the leading edge/wing, not the bird.) I would think it would not be much different then a plywood only leading edge. If there i s no data/info. on the current leading edge design and midair impacts, how do you argue with a new design being not as good? How can one or the other be proved better/worse if there is no current info. on hand to compare? Wha t if, just maybe, that leading edge piece is overkill and not needed... - What one may do is make a mock up of each set up and hit them from the fron t with a seagull size hammer until they break the leading edge of each and make notes on how/when they break. - My point for thinking about this was the weight savings in omitting the lea ding edge wood, as well as foregoing-the work required to form the leadin g edge and drilling, bolting, nailing, (more weight) etc., it in place.- Whatever work/time was involved to make and install that leading edge is no w gone. Just go right to the wrapping of the ply.- No extra work involved here. If one feels it necessary, I guess they could make that leading edge and use it as a form for the ply, then slide it out once the plywood is se t. These small savings in weight along the way all add up in the end. - You say the Piet. plans show no ply under the ribs for the leading edge wra p, only on top. My Riblett plan is the same. I had no intention on going to the spar on the bottom. I was wondering why it is even necessary to go all the way to the spar on top? Seems like a waste once you have that good fro ntal area covered to continue on back so far. If I were to go this non-lead ing edge ply route, I would only wrap the ply as far as needed along the bo ttom to get enough epoxy area to hold it. - - ________________________________ Message 38 ____________________________________ Time: 05:04:57 PM PST US From: RAMPEYBOY@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Thanks Walt! I guess that's why after 4 yrs of building from a kit I'm only 60% done with the airframe. I try to put everything else first, as frustrating as that feels now, later on I'll be glad I did. I average about 15 hours per month of airplane work. I may go three weeks without touching it, then put in a couple long days in the shop. Definitely not the best way of getting it built, but it is the best I can do for now. And, I will say I enjoy the work. But, if I were to do it over, I'd probably buy a flying plane so that I could enjoy it now. Being as far into the project as I am, I will see it through. Anyone else have stories of there builds and the obstacles they ran into? Boyce In a message dated 12/8/2008 5:54:13 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, waltdak@verizon.net writes: Boyce, I'm only responding to your email cause I saw yours first. I've been a PPSEL since 1966. Didn't get into the building thing till my kids were grown. And I have 3 of the greatest kids in the world. Now I have a beautiful Pietenpol in the hanger that I can fly anytime I'm divorced, and my Ex left, so I raised my kids from young, and with all the housework and grocerys, and overtime, I missed the time I should have had with my kids. Now that I have 4 going on 5 Grandchildren. I cherish my time with my grandkids. Guess my point is,,,there's plenty of time to build when the kids are grown. Don't Plan time away to build,,,,Only build when there is nothing else to do, or the kids are asleep and the wife is shopping. POINT...You can never relive time with your kids! If I came off like a nut,,sorry. I'm done with my soapbox.....:^) walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: _RAMPEYBOY@aol.com_ (mailto:RAMPEYBOY@aol.com) Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 7:52 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I'm in a similar position as you. I have three kids, 4,3, 1 yrs old. I have been building a Mustang II kit since 2004. I'm about 60% done with airframe. I keep thinking if I had it to do over, I'd just buy a 152, and enjoy it while I can. I honestly don't know how many times I will pass the medical, and at the rate I'm going, I may not even get the plane done before my medical is no longer valid. The kids are too young to be of any help. The wife though she said she was all in to begin with, is not really all in. Even though I explained I needed to work on it 10-15 hours per week (which I have yet to do), she had no apparent idea what 10-15 hours per week meant. In fact if I do 8 hours a week, she starts getting grumpy. So, not to rain on your parade, but I think if I were to do it again, I'd buy a flying airplane, and just enjoy it. On the other hand, you are well along with the Pietenpol, since you're in this deep, go ahead and finish it. You did mention IFR, you're not of course planning on IFR in the Pietenpol? Good luck with whatever decision you make. Boyce href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chref="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 39 ____________________________________ Time: 05:45:21 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? I think we all have obstacles to deal with or overcome from family and social obligation discouraging and un encouraging significant others, Yard work, home maintenance, work and travel schedules and the ever popular financial dilemma, changing medical conditions and a host of other things. I think if you can name I am certain someone has experienced it, even my favorite Builders block. I stay on the project by and through contact with friends I have made on the board, along with the inspirational pictures I have hanging in my shop and the time I get to visit other builders at Brodhead and on business trips. Most inspiring is my grandson of 4 years old who has claimed the front pit as his seat and knowing the back seat belongs to his poppop and that one day he and I will fly our completed project together! Just something about that is enough to keep me going, building against all the obstacles life continues to throw at me. And when its all said and done I still get the joy of the build experience and a great hand made airplane which beats the hell out of anything else I can imagine. John **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 40 ____________________________________ Time: 06:11:26 PM PST US From: AMsafetyC@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: timely topics While I am getting ready to do some metal work, my spars are on order and I need to get my varnishing going the cloth part is on my list of soon considerations as far as purchases and applications. To that end does anyone have any suggestions for material amounts to order for cthe covering process even if its an opening order. I just want an idea of what to expect to encounter in the not too distant future. I will be on vacation from December 13 through the 5th of January 2009 that means a bunch of 10 hour build days will soon begin and I am getting ready for buildapalooza 08. So I been making contacts ordering stuff and planning the next almost 3 weeks of building allowing 4 hours for Christmas and New Years combined. I figure that should be more than enough time off. John **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. ________________________________ Message 41 ____________________________________ Time: 06:23:33 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Rob; Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference! Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb helpful and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to "there" could be a problem. Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico that may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the brainchild of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of wings. Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of completed fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward, no main landing gear. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 42 ____________________________________ Time: 06:51:41 PM PST US From: Oscar Zuniga Subject: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? No discussion as far as I'm concerned; if it comes to a choice between getting a dozen hours of dual instrument time or continuing a Piet project build in your annual budget, build wins hands-down. You can always go back and brush up on IFR skills but building and flying something like a Piet is something that you may never do again in your life but will always value and remember as long as you live. And sometimes you will even be introduced (by your son, daughter, or grandchild) as someone who built and flies his own airplane. Talk about an ice-breaker at parties! Not to sound like a "top gun" or anything, but earlier this year I was very fortunate to get time in a EA-6B Prowler simulator at NAS Whidbey Island. I had not flown anything with that many instruments or controls in many years, and yet it's not about the knobs and dials; it's about your confidence in command of the aircraft. Did I goof up? Sure; and I was overwhelmed by all the gadgets and procedures, but I had stick, rudder, and throttle and all the rest was just gravy. With those three controls in VERY familiar places, I was able to fly some pretty decent maneuvers. I flew simulated instrument approaches, approaches to an aircraft carrier deck, and just plain old maneuvers... in an airplane that was about as different from a Piet as you can get. There is nothing more valuable than basic, honest flying skills and judgement... and the Pietenpol can teach and maintain those skills every minute that you are at the controls. At 4 gal./hr. fuel consumption and do-it-yourself service, there is simply nothing as affordable to own or fly than one of these basic experimentals. Go hop in a 172 or an Arrow or a Diamond after flying a Piet for a while and it will feel like you're flying a leather couch on rails by comparison. And you even get cabin heat at the pull of a knob, something that Piet pilots wish they had but can't buy at any price ;o) Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 43 ____________________________________ Time: 07:05:40 PM PST US From: "Jack Phillips" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: A-65 A75 parts for sale How much are you asking for the Prop hub? Jack Phillips NX899JP Raleigh, NC _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Steve Singleton Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:50 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: A-65 A75 parts for sale Since we sold our Champ and i'm going to concentrate on building the Piet i'm going to sell some spare motor parts i have. I'll be useing a Model A so want to sell these to help finance the Piet. If anyone is interested in 4 good steel cylinders (good cores)only have the steel valves, a good tapered shaft prop hub, a set of bushings for a McCaulley prop, Crankshaft and camshaft gears, The prop hub is good, we had to replace the crank and was able to find a good flanged crank so don't need the hub. My A/P motor guy felt that these clyinders would just need Honed along with checking the seats and guides. I'm sure i have some more misc. parts but will need to look. I'm located in northern MO. Would gladly trade for Birch plywood for the Piet. I still have the Crank but it would have to go twenty under to be any good. Since i'm into the Piet i thought i'd make these available to the Piet crowd first. Let me know if you'd like to make an offer on these. I can email pics. 660 565 2936----Cell 660 214 0029, please leave a message if i don't answer. Steve Singleton ________________________________ Message 44 ____________________________________ Time: 07:10:00 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Yes, put your money into building. But who says you can't hang around the airfield once in a while. Just practice the old " sad puppydog who wants a ride" look and maybe someone will take pity on you. :-) Clif So, I've been posing this question of hanging it up (temporarily hopefully) for quite a while now internally. I guess I just needed to hear it from other people, I don't know why. ________________________________ Message 45 ____________________________________ Time: 07:19:33 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pieterse: doing the math From: amsafetyc@aol.com I have been working on getting my paperwork in ordrer. Build logs receipts and costs into a spread sheet. When all of a sudden what I thought cost me a few bucks and a few hours actually turned out to be more than I estimated. Get ready here comes the qiuestion: has anyone calculated a material direct purchase cost per hour of build time logged? I would be curioius to learn your ratio for comparison purposes. I am wondering if I am working as efficiently and cost effective as the list average. Not for any particular purppose other than comparison value is all John ------Original Message------ From: Oscar Zuniga Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:22 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Rob; Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference! Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb helpful and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to "there" could be a problem. Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico that may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the brainchild of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of wings. Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of completed fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward, no main landing gear. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 46 ____________________________________ Time: 08:31:10 PM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Oscar, This sounds good. Yes, I have a trucking company (owned by a bunch of Alaskan pilots) and several air cargo outfits that I can tap into. What are the details? Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist Anchorage, Alaska 907-230-9425 KL2AN Skype:rob.stapleton.jr IM Windows Live Messenger: foto@alaska.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Zuniga Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 5:23 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Rob; Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference! Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb helpful and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to "there" could be a problem. Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico that may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the brainchild of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of wings. Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of completed fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward, no main landing gear. Oscar Zuniga Air Camper NX41CC San Antonio, TX mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com website at http://www.flysquirrel.net ________________________________ Message 47 ____________________________________ Time: 08:40:40 PM PST US From: "Rob Stapleton, Jr." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Thanks, I will check out the prospects. RS Rob Stapleton, Photojournalist Anchorage, Alaska 907-230-9425 KL2AN Skype:rob.stapleton.jr IM Windows Live Messenger: foto@alaska.net -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Scott Knowlton Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:32 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project My mistake, kits are supplied by Wicks. Scott K _____ From: flyingscott_k@hotmail.com Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project Another option for the school if they have no luck with a donation would be the Primary Glider. Plans and kits from Wag Aero are well supported. Scott Knowlton _____ From: foto@alaska.net Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project If anyone has a project that they would like to donate on this list please contact me. The Begich Middle School here in Anchorage wants to start, build, rebuild or repair an aircraft project as part of a hands on aviation project in conjunction with the local Chapter 42 EAA, and the FAA. According to the FAA Aviation Education outreach contact that I have any donation is tax deductible. I am building a Pietenpol and can advise them of their progress as I make mine. Thanks! Rob EAA Chapter 42 Newsletter Editor Anchorage, AK ww.matronics.com/contribution st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com _____ Win a trip with your 3 best buddies. Enter today. ww.matronics.com/contribution st">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ronics.com _____ ________________________________ Message 48 ____________________________________ Time: 08:58:39 PM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: to fly or build? Oscar, I think an EA-6B may not be spiritually that far removed from a Piet. After all, they are both aged, anachronistic aircraft that have continued to find and ably fill a role our "hi-tech" age. :P Congrats on your very cool time in the sim. Have a good night, Ryan do not archive On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 8:48 PM, Oscar Zuniga wrote: > > ....Not to sound like a "top gun" or anything, but earlier this year I was > very > fortunate to get time in a EA-6B Prowler simulator at NAS Whidbey Island. > I had not > flown anything with that many instruments or controls in many years, and > yet it's not > about the knobs and dials; it's about your confidence in command of the > aircraft. > Did I goof up? Sure; and I was overwhelmed by all the gadgets and > procedures, but > I had stick, rudder, and throttle and all the rest was just gravy. With > those three > controls in VERY familiar places, I was able to fly some pretty decent > maneuvers. > I flew simulated instrument approaches, approaches to an aircraft carrier > deck, and > just plain old maneuvers... in an airplane that was about as different from > a Piet > as you can get. > > Oscar Zuniga > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.