Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:34 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Clif Dawson)
2. 02:50 AM - Re: to fly or build? (RAMPEYBOY@aol.com)
3. 04:27 AM - LE ply reasoning on top (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
4. 05:53 AM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Michael Perez)
5. 05:59 AM - Re: LE ply reasoning on top (Michael Perez)
6. 06:34 AM - LE ply reasoning on top (Oscar Zuniga)
7. 07:09 AM - Starlet LE (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC])
8. 07:33 AM - Re: Starlet LE (Michael Perez)
9. 08:10 AM - Re: Re: Pieterse: doing the math (Dick N.)
10. 10:32 AM - Re: Re: Pieterse: doing the math (AMsafetyC@aol.com)
11. 01:29 PM - Re: Re: Pieterse: doing the math (airlion@bellsouth.net)
12. 02:47 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Bill Church)
13. 03:13 PM - Super strong, super simple leading edge (Don Emch)
14. 03:48 PM - Re: to fly or build? (Tim Verthein)
15. 03:52 PM - latest Piet video from 2GA9 (Jeff Boatright)
16. 04:05 PM - Re: Super strong, super simple leading edge (Lagowski Morrow)
17. 10:43 PM - Re: More leading edge questions/ideas (Clif Dawson)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
>From what I understand, the leading edge comes out just
fine. The trailing edge, however, gets chewed up pretty bad.
I don't think a true D cell would save all that much weight and
the practical hands on forming would be harder than glueing
a narrow piece of ply to a stick of wood on the nose.
Clif
"Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when
there is nothing left to take away." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
anyone had a bird strike with their Piet.? (Or any other in air
impact? That would be quite the story!
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
well said John!
In a message dated 12/8/2008 8:46:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
AMsafetyC@aol.com writes:
I think we all have obstacles to deal with or overcome from family and
social obligation discouraging and un encouraging significant others, Yard work,
home maintenance, work and travel schedules and the ever popular financial
dilemma, changing medical conditions and a host of other things. I think if you
can name I am certain someone has experienced it, even my favorite Builders
block.
I stay on the project by and through contact with friends I have made on the
board, along with the inspirational pictures I have hanging in my shop and
the time I get to visit other builders at Brodhead and on business trips.
Most inspiring is my grandson of 4 years old who has claimed the front pit
as his seat and knowing the back seat belongs to his poppop and that one day
he and I will fly our completed project together!
Just something about that is enough to keep me going, building against all
the obstacles life continues to throw at me. And when its all said and done I
still get the joy of the build experience and a great hand made airplane
which beats the hell out of anything else I can imagine.
John
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Message 3
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| Subject: | LE ply reasoning on top |
I believe the reason for the plywood just aft of the leading edge nose
block is to keep the fabric from touching
the top of the front spar as it 'sucks down' after taughtening.
My only concern with an all-plywood LE would be possible waviness as
thin plywood likes to take on sometimes less
than flat contours when steamed/soaked and bent but then again weren't
Spitfires and other planes like the Spruce Goose
sheeted in plywood in some parts ?
The aluminum LE's on Champs and such will dent readily if you bang them
into another wing (hangar rash) or the corner
of your hangar walls or doors and I'm sure the plywood would react much
the same and both would need repair.
The solid nose block LE certainly would have much higher impact
resistance than either alum. or ply sheeting but youse
takes your chances I suppose and hope for the best. All three methods
to me are acceptable.
Mike C.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
Cliff, but after that piece of ply stick, don't you then follow with the ply sheet
as well? What I am saying is remove that stick. (X2 and save that weight)
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: LE ply reasoning on top |
Mike, I guess the problem I have is that from what I hear, no one has any r
eal proof about this leading edge. Some planes had the solid wood, some use
only ply or aluminum. I wonder what a ply only leading edge can take. It d
oesn't seem like anyone knows what the "stock" Pietenpol leading edge can h
andle, but are quick to disregard a ply only one.
-
I will do more research on this and MAY, make a model. Anyone have some har
d numbers/facts/info.tests on a stock leading edge and it's durability? I q
uestion the need for such a leading edge.
--- On Tue, 12/9/08, Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.g
ov> wrote:
From: Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC] <Michael.D.Cuy@nasa.gov>
Subject: Pietenpol-List: LE ply reasoning on top
I believe the reason for the plywood just aft of the leading edge nose bloc
k is to keep the fabric from touching
the top of the front spar as it 'sucks down' after taughtening.
-
My only concern with an all-plywood LE would be possible waviness as thin p
lywood likes to take on sometimes less
than flat contours when steamed/soaked and bent but then again weren't Spit
fires and other planes like the Spruce Goose
sheeted in plywood in some parts ?
-
The aluminum LE's on Champs and such will dent readily if you bang them int
o another wing (hangar rash) or the corner
of your hangar walls or doors and I'm sure the plywood would react much the
same and both would need repair.-
The solid nose block LE certainly would have much higher impact resistance
than either alum. or ply sheeting but youse
takes your chances I suppose and hope for the best.-- All three methods
to me are acceptable.-
-
Mike C.
-
-
-
-
Message 6
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| Subject: | LE ply reasoning on top |
Mikee- didn't your Corby Starlet have plywood LE and/or wing covering? Not
that you banged it around in the hangar=2C
but what was your take on the Starlet wings if they had plywood leading edg
es? A low-winger will sure get a lot more
bumps than a high-winger...Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio=2C TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Message 7
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Oscar,
My Starlet did have an all-plywood LE but the nose end of the ribs was a
complete airfoil curvature which you could glue/nail
to. I see no reason why you couldn't simply glue contoured nose blocks
on each rib (or maybe even just where you had ply butt joints)
and wrap with plywood if you wanted to. I personally didn't want to go
thru the work of doing that and in fact never even considered
the possibility but other a/c are in fact built this way and/or w/
aluminum LE's.
Mike C.
PS-- I did once bang the LE of my Starlet wing with my side-swinging
cargo door on a small SUV and it only resulted in a paint
nick.
Message 8
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I don't see a need for a nose block at every rib. This would be more work a
nd may end up being as time consuming as just making the wood stick leading
edge. However, a nose block at each butt joint of the plywood may be good.
-
This is why I post these ideas of mine; to get feedback like this that help
s evolve my original idea. Mike C. and I have talked about this idea and di
d some sketches, drawings, etc. I am glad I have daily access to him for sh
aring thoughts and drawings.
-
When I get to this point in my wing construction, I will be able to test so
me ideas and see if in fact, it can be done. My major concern now is the pr
e-forming of the plywood. I am GUESSING I will need about 12" or so of widt
h and 4' long. Not sure how easy it will be to pre-form plywood of this siz
e. When I get there, I'll figure it out.
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Pieterse: doing the math |
John
Don't forget to include that pile of parts that didn't work out that sit in
the corner. Also you have to add in the value of the experience that you
have have gained. I wonder if anyone has ever written that down and
received college credits for that. Also how about the value of becoming a
member of a tiny group in the history of modern man who has completed a
flying machine. Then you have to also add the value of flying your machine
around all of the factory made aircraft and know what they must be thinking.
The Piet is a hit at every Fly in and draws a crowd at every FBO I pull
into. So what if your time came to 15 cents per hour in building.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: <amsafetyc@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pieterse: doing the math
I have been working on getting my paperwork in ordrer. Build logs receipts
and costs into a spread sheet. When all of a sudden what I thought cost me a
few bucks and a few hours actually turned out to be more than I estimated.
Get ready here comes the qiuestion: has anyone calculated a material direct
purchase cost per hour of build time logged? I would be curioius to learn
your ratio for comparison purposes. I am wondering if I am working as
efficiently and cost effective as the list average. Not for any particular
purppose other than comparison value is all
John
------Original Message------
From: Oscar Zuniga
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
Rob;
Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference!
Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb
helpful
and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to
"there"
could be a problem.
Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico
that
may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the
brainchild
of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of
wings.
Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of
completed
fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward,
no
main landing gear.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pieterse: doing the math |
Dick,
All great and highly valuable points for which there is no good way to
estimate the benefit vs cost. Just on base number of hard cash spent and direct
hours of gluing sticks together my expense to work hour comes out to 4.86:1.
There is no way to estimate the value of lessons learned, skills acquired,
band aids applied or the sheer enjoyment and love of the process nor the end
result which is after all the value of a hand made custom built flying
aircraft which all out weigh the costs associated with the project.
John
In a message dated 12/9/2008 11:11:59 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
horzpool@goldengate.net writes:
--> Pietenpol-List message posted by: "Dick N." <horzpool@goldengate.net>
John
Don't forget to include that pile of parts that didn't work out that sit in
the corner. Also you have to add in the value of the experience that you
have have gained. I wonder if anyone has ever written that down and
received college credits for that. Also how about the value of becoming a
member of a tiny group in the history of modern man who has completed a
flying machine. Then you have to also add the value of flying your machine
around all of the factory made aircraft and know what they must be thinking.
The Piet is a hit at every Fly in and draws a crowd at every FBO I pull
into. So what if your time came to 15 cents per hour in building.
Dick N.
----- Original Message -----
From: <amsafetyc@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 9:23 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Pieterse: doing the math
I have been working on getting my paperwork in ordrer. Build logs receipts
and costs into a spread sheet. When all of a sudden what I thought cost me a
few bucks and a few hours actually turned out to be more than I estimated.
Get ready here comes the qiuestion: has anyone calculated a material direct
purchase cost per hour of build time logged? I would be curioius to learn
your ratio for comparison purposes. I am wondering if I am working as
efficiently and cost effective as the list average. Not for any particular
purppose other than comparison value is all
John
------Original Message------
From: Oscar Zuniga
Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com
ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Dec 8, 2008 9:22 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anchorage School Looking for Airplane Project
Rob;
Is this school looking for a project in Alaska? It makes a huge difference!
Unless you know of someone in the trucking business or who is just plumb
helpful
and wants to drag a trailer up the highway, getting something from "here" to
"there"
could be a problem.
Reason I ask is that there is an "Aerial" project in Santa Fe, New Mexico
that
may be a candidate. The "Aerial" is basically a biplane GN-1 and is the
brainchild
of Chad Wille. It has larger tail surface areas and of course two sets of
wings.
Let me know if you want more info on this. The project consists of
completed
fuselage, tail surfaces, and wings... no covering, nothing firewall forward,
no
main landing gear.
Oscar Zuniga
Air Camper NX41CC
San Antonio, TX
mailto: taildrags@hotmail.com
website at http://www.flysquirrel.net
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Pieterse: doing the math |
Message 12
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| Subject: | More leading edge questions/ideas |
Michael,
No, I don't know of any data regarding the current design and midair
impacts. I would imagine that flying into a seagull (or a seagull shaped
hammer) with either design would likely be catastrophic. The data we DO have
is that the existing design as per the plans works (and has done so for
eighty years). Period.
As an engineer, when deciding on the feasibility of a design change, one
does a cost/benefit analysis. You systematically look at all of the costs
involved (this includes financial as well as incidental costs, among others)
and you also look at the benefits that would be a result of the change. In
doing a very preliminary analysis, I don't really see any benefits - It
doesn't look like any less work (wait till you try to pre-form the plywood),
or financial cost - there is maybe a slight potential weight saving. On the
risk side I see potentially large risks - making a design change based on "I
would think that would be pretty strong", or "I may build a mock-up".
I'm not saying that it is not possible to design and build a Pietenpol wing
that has no solid leading edge, and just a plywood skin. However, I still
maintain that you would need something to hold the shape. If you look at the
Grega rib design you see that the leading edge is a much smaller stick of
wood, but the rib construction is more complicated and the rib profile is
complete, not chopped off flat like the Piet rib. The Grega wing is also
designed to use an aluminum skin, rather than plywood, which wraps around
the bottom as well.
In order to determine the net worth of your proposal, one would really need
to have a background in aircraft design. I don't have that. I'm going to
build to the plans. But, I don't think you have that background, either. I
think you are treading on shaky ground here. You are suggesting making
structural changes to an aircraft, without really knowing why the thing is
designed the way it is. You say you would "only wrap the ply as far as
needed". How are you going to figure out how far that is? I'm worried that
you are taking the term "experimental" a little too literally. All I have to
say is "Be careful".
Bill C.
Message 13
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| Subject: | Super strong, super simple leading edge |
I don't mean to continue to stir the pot, but... it would be tough to come up with
a much simpler, stronger leading edge than what is on the plans. It is such
a simple concept to take a piece of spruce, run it through the table saw then
glue and bolt it to the leading edge of the ribs and plane it down to shape.
Then what could be stronger than simply gluing a piece of 1/16" plywood to
it and the ribs, no steaming or forming necessary. It creates an incredibly strong
and lightweight leading edge with no complex steaming, forming or bending
required.
I have a really great airplane friend who suffers from a condition known as "Over-Analysis
Paralysis". It gets in the way of his airplane building. I know
everyone's idea of building an airplane is different, and some people may enjoy
having this type of condition, but look at those plans, digest it, then enjoy
building it, then you can really enjoy FLYING IT! Off the soapbox now.......
:D
Don Emch
NX899DE
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218548#218548
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: to fly or build? |
Just thought I'd toss a fe more thoughts out here on this topic.
The theory that if you love to fly rather than build to "go out and buy an old
150" is not a valid option. If you can't afford to build, you ertainly can't afford
to go buy an old 15o, or Champ, or whatever. Soon as you buy a certified
plane you've also squired the required expenses that go with it. Random check
of used 150 prices puts 'em right around $20,000 for a decent used one (you can
spend more, you can spend less, but for the sake or argument). Now, I don't
know a heck of a lot about airplane financing but 20,000 on a 5 year loan at
7% (numbers completely chosen at random) makes about a $400 a month payment.
That will buy a lot of rental time, or a lot of Piet lumber. And You know that
finance outfit is going to require some fancy insurance, and there's gonna be
a lot of expensive paperwork. Not t o mention that yo now have a certified airplane
that you can't work on yourself, that's going to require expensive annuals,
expensive overhauls, and
the list goes on. And those payments for the plane and the insurance company gotta
get paid whether you fly or not. I've figured that unless you can afford
several hundred dollars a month to afford an "old used plane", flying it or not,
you better stay away from certified planes!
This is one reason I'm going to build a Piet. My project is going way more slowly
than I ever expected. But it's grown from having plans and nothing else to
having an engine conversion manual, lots of research, and a rib jig under construction.
So, someday. I enjoy building things. Never built a plane. Lots of
flying models however. But building it myself makes it affordable and you get
the benefit of having done it yourself, meeting a heck of a lot of good folks
along the way, and being able to take care of it yourself. Certified planes
are for people with money. At least, people with more money than I.
And the idea that as you get older you'll have more time hasn't proven to be true
for me yet. My 4 kids have grown up and moved out. Now I have them, PLUS 4
grandkids. And they've all moved away, so now time is spent traveling around visiting
them! I'm only 50, and still working of course, but it seems there are
always more and more things to do. One grandson is 4, and completely 100% enamored
with airplanes. he has been since he was under 2. Nothing will make him
more excited than to see a Piet taking shape in Grandpa's garage. Vacation time
that used to be used to go to Oshkosh or Broadhead, or other places we used
to always go, are now taken to go with the kids. Not complaining mind you but
you need to be aware that this is gonna happen if you have kids.
So, there's some random thoughts anyway.
tim in Bovey
Message 15
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| Subject: | latest Piet video from 2GA9 |
New video of me flying our newly- and nearly-restored Piet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvoExE6CcW4
Be sure to click on the "watch in high quality" link at the lower
right of the video frame.
--
---
Jeffrey H. Boatright, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Ophthalmology
Emory University School of Medicine
Editor-in-Chief
Molecular Vision
Message 16
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| Subject: | Re: Super strong, super simple leading edge |
I did exactly what you described, with 1/16" ply top and bottom. Really
strong! Tested with my landing "incident' last July--Jim lagowski
Do not archive
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Emch" <EmchAir@aol.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:13 PM
Subject: Pietenpol-List: Super strong, super simple leading edge
>
> I don't mean to continue to stir the pot, but... it would be tough to come
> up with a much simpler, stronger leading edge than what is on the plans.
> It is such a simple concept to take a piece of spruce, run it through the
> table saw then glue and bolt it to the leading edge of the ribs and plane
> it down to shape. Then what could be stronger than simply gluing a piece
> of 1/16" plywood to it and the ribs, no steaming or forming necessary. It
> creates an incredibly strong and lightweight leading edge with no complex
> steaming, forming or bending required.
>
> I have a really great airplane friend who suffers from a condition known
> as "Over-Analysis Paralysis". It gets in the way of his airplane
> building. I know everyone's idea of building an airplane is different,
> and some people may enjoy having this type of condition, but look at those
> plans, digest it, then enjoy building it, then you can really enjoy FLYING
> IT! Off the soapbox now....... :D
>
> Don Emch
> NX899DE
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218548#218548
>
>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
9:38 AM
Message 17
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| Subject: | Re: More leading edge questions/ideas |
I know what you mean but I would think that to properly utilize
ply only, you would need to cover from just above the spar on
top to the spar again on the bottom to get a dependable curve.
If you made a jig and steamed( or wet) the ply and formed it
over that then applied it to the plane after it dries in shape You
might not have to go so far back on the bottom. And being preformed it
would be significantly easier to apply.
In the traditional way you have a small amount of ply and a
stick. The stick can be any light wood except maybe balsa.
This narrow piece of ply would be easy to glue down and
shaping the nose is really not that hard. Think about the
things you've already done. Was shaping the leading and
trailing edges of the tail an onerous task ??
To use the ply requires a lot more ply without the stick so I
don't see any worthwhile weight saving. I think you'll find
that the work load, although different, isn't going to be any
less than sticking to the plans.
In the end it boils down to what you're either more
comfortable doing or appeals to your nature.
Clif
----- Original Message -----
From: Michael Perez
To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: More leading edge questions/ideas
Cliff, but after that piece of ply stick, don't you then follow
with the ply sheet as well? What I am saying is remove that stick. (X2
and save that weight)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
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12/8/2008 6:16 PM
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