---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/11/08: 18 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:16 AM - Re: Re: Super strong, super simple leading edge (Phillips, Jack) 2. 05:01 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Gene Rambo) 3. 05:17 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Ryan Mueller) 4. 05:51 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Gene Rambo) 5. 05:55 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Michael Perez) 6. 06:58 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (glennthomas@flyingwood.com) 7. 07:24 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Michael Perez) 8. 08:09 AM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Tim Willis) 9. 08:15 AM - white stuff on wings (Dick N.) 10. 09:38 AM - a wing cutout is a design change (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 11. 12:45 PM - Formed Control Horns (Catdesigns) 12. 01:00 PM - Re: Formed Control Horns (Michael Groah) 13. 01:09 PM - Re: Formed Control Horns (TOM STINEMETZE) 14. 01:12 PM - Re: Formed Control Horns (Mandy & Michael Green) 15. 02:54 PM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Gene Rambo) 16. 04:26 PM - Re: Leaing ege follow up (Peter W Johnson) 17. 05:59 PM - Re: Formed Control Horns (Don Emch) 18. 10:20 PM - Re: Old PopSci's available from 1930s via Google (Clif Dawson) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:16:03 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Super strong, super simple leading edge From: "Phillips, Jack" Us Green and Yellow (or Cream) Pietenpols gotta stick together! Jack Phillips NX899JP -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Don Emch Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:07 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Super strong, super simple leading edge It sure is nice to know I share a soapbox with a great guy like Jack Phillips! Do Not Archive Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218751#218751 _________________________________________________ or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:01:21 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Peter: I would have to see what the requirement is. What are we actually talking about, a full D section structural leading edge, or just wrapping the leading edge material (such as aluminum) all the way around? I would be very surprised if they actually required a major structural alteration such as an actual D box. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter W Johnson To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:31 PM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, The PFA (now LAA) in the UK "require" a D section on the leading edge of the wing. I did mine that way and have no regrets. Peter Wonthaggi Australia http://www.cpc-world.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:17:37 AM PST US From: "Ryan Mueller" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, Sorry, couldn't resist.... In your first email in this thread you state: "Wrapping plywood all the way around the leading edge from spar to spar would create, as many have pointed out, a "D box" spar...." In your reply to Peter you ask whether he is talking about an actual "D box", or just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around. This implies that just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around does not create a "D box", which is contrary to your previous post. Which is it? ;) Have a good morning, Ryan On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Gene Rambo wrote: > Peter: > > I would have to see what the requirement is. What are we actually talking > about, a full D section structural leading edge, or just wrapping the > leading edge material (such as aluminum) all the way around? I would be > very surprised if they actually required a major structural alteration such > as an actual D box. > > Gene > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:51:21 AM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up I believe that I said wrapping the material (aluminum, cardboard, etc) all the way around. that was the point of my initial post, too many on here are using terms interchangably and not being specific whether the "leading edge" refers just to the wooden "stick" on the rib noses or the entire area in front of the spar. I may not have been clear enough, but read as a whole, I was stating that there is a difference between merely wrapping aluminum all the way around, and forming plywood and glueing it all the way around and to the spars, creating a D box. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, Sorry, couldn't resist.... In your first email in this thread you state: "Wrapping plywood all the way around the leading edge from spar to spar would create, as many have pointed out, a "D box" spar...." In your reply to Peter you ask whether he is talking about an actual "D box", or just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around. This implies that just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around does not create a "D box", which is contrary to your previous post. Which is it? ;) Have a good morning, Ryan On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Gene Rambo > wrote: Peter: I would have to see what the requirement is. What are we actually talking about, a full D section structural leading edge, or just wrapping the leading edge material (such as aluminum) all the way around? I would be very surprised if they actually required a major structural alteration such as an actual D box. Gene http://www.matronics.com/contribution http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:55:25 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, again, I never said I was making a "D" shaped enclosed frontal area. See how things get messed up? I am not sure why this enclosed "D" leading e dge came up. I actually questioned why the ply on top had to go back to the spar, you say it does not. - What I see here and Gene's last email confirms it, that we are all guessing ! Some swear by the plans and having a stick leading edge, some agree you d on't need one, or maybe even the plywood. That alone tells me what ever I c ome up with will work. Looks like no one has any hard evidence one way or a nother, just a lot of speculation. - We do agree on one thing Gene, wayyy out of hand! I thought it was a simple question needing only some facts and a good explanation. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 06:58:32 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up From: glennthomas@flyingwood.com UGVyaGFwcyBzb21lb25lIGNvdWxkIHJlcXVlc3QgdGhhdCBNYXR0IERyYWxsZSBjcmVhdGUgYW4g Im9mZi10aGUtd2FsbCBpZGVhIiBsaXN0LiAgSXQgd291bGQgaGVscCB0aGUgOTklIG9mIHVzIHRo YXQgZG9uJ3Qgd2FudCB0byByZWRlc2lnbiBldmVyeXRoaW5nIGp1c3QgZm9yIHRoZSBzYWtlIG9m IGRvaW5nIGl0IGNvbnRpbnVlIHRvIGVuam95IHRoaXMgZm9ydW0uDQoNCk15ICQwLjAyLg0KDQpT ZW50IGZyb20gbXkgVmVyaXpvbiBXaXJlbGVzcyBCbGFja0JlcnJ5DQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwg TWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQpGcm9tOiBNaWNoYWVsIFBlcmV6IDxzcGVlZGJyYWtlQHNiY2dsb2JhbC5u ZXQ+DQoNCkRhdGU6IFRodSwgMTEgRGVjIDIwMDggMDU6NTU6MDAgDQpUbzogPHBpZXRlbnBvbC1s aXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSZTogUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IExlYWluZyBl Z2UgZm9sbG93IHVwDQoNCg0KR2VuZSwgYWdhaW4sIEkgbmV2ZXIgc2FpZCBJIHdhcyBtYWtpbmcg YSAiRCIgc2hhcGVkIGVuY2xvc2VkIGZyb250YWwgYXJlYS4gU2VlIGhvdyB0aGluZ3MgZ2V0IG1l c3NlZCB1cD8gSSBhbSBub3Qgc3VyZSB3aHkgdGhpcyBlbmNsb3NlZCAiRCIgbGVhZGluZyBlZGdl IGNhbWUgdXAuIEkgYWN0dWFsbHkgcXVlc3Rpb25lZCB3aHkgdGhlIHBseSBvbiB0b3AgaGFkIHRv IGdvIGJhY2sgdG8gdGhlIHNwYXIsIHlvdSBzYXkgaXQgZG9lcyBub3QuIA0KoA0KV2hhdCBJIHNl ZSBoZXJlIGFuZCBHZW5lJ3MgbGFzdCBlbWFpbCBjb25maXJtcyBpdCwgdGhhdCB3ZSBhcmUgYWxs IGd1ZXNzaW5nISBTb21lIHN3ZWFyIGJ5IHRoZSBwbGFucyBhbmQgaGF2aW5nIGEgc3RpY2sgbGVh ZGluZyBlZGdlLCBzb21lIGFncmVlIHlvdSBkb24ndCBuZWVkIG9uZSwgb3IgbWF5YmUgZXZlbiB0 aGUgcGx5d29vZC4gVGhhdCBhbG9uZSB0ZWxscyBtZSB3aGF0IGV2ZXIgSSBjb21lIHVwIHdpdGgg d2lsbCB3b3JrLiBMb29rcyBsaWtlIG5vIG9uZSBoYXMgYW55IGhhcmQgZXZpZGVuY2Ugb25lIHdh eSBvciBhbm90aGVyLCBqdXN0IGEgbG90IG9mIHNwZWN1bGF0aW9uLg0KoA0KV2UgZG8gYWdyZWUg b24gb25lIHRoaW5nIEdlbmUsIHdheXl5IG91dCBvZiBoYW5kISBJIHRob3VnaHQgaXQgd2FzIGEg c2ltcGxlIHF1ZXN0aW9uIG5lZWRpbmcgb25seSBzb21lIGZhY3RzIGFuZCBhIGdvb2QgZXhwbGFu YXRpb24uDQoNCg0K ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:24:08 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Rather then to continue to degrade this list and this-thread further with useless comments like the one below, I will take the route of the more int elligent people on this list who realize they have nothing-constructive -to offer and move on. My $0.02. - For those who responded with constructive responses/ideas/comments, I look forward to your-thoughts in my future posts. --- On Thu, 12/11/08, glennthomas@flyingwood.com wrote: From: glennthomas@flyingwood.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Perhaps someone could request that Matt Dralle create an "off-the-wall idea " list. It would help the 99% of us that don't want to redesign everything just for the sake of doing it continue to enjoy this forum. My $0.02. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:09:43 AM PST US From: Tim Willis Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Michael, I certainly have been guilty of trying to "improve the design" myself, and have both marveled at the patience of experienced builders on this site and profited from their detailed input. Maybe it's just an unfortunate choice of words on your part, or my faulty interpretation of them, but I am going to make my first derogatory post in over three years on this site. Here goes. >From the following comments you have made, it seems to me that you don't take instruction very well: "What I see here and Gene's last email confirms it, that we are all guessing! Some swear by the plans and having a stick leading edge, some agree you don't need one, or maybe even the plywood. That alone tells me what ever I come up with will work. Looks like no one has any hard evidence one way or another, just a lot of speculation." You have various ideas on how to change the design, ask for comments, then get lengthy and detailed explanations from experienced builders, giving freely of their time at no cost to you, then conclude what? No one can know what is essential under the most rigorous conditions without destruction testing. However, you have been told what is workable, and why, in great detail: -- what is stronger, but how little strength is needed; -- what is easiest to form and/or bend; -- what has sufficient strength vs. weight; -- which LE is easiest to match surfaces with plywood, and how; -- the pros and cons of plywood vs. aluminum; -- what has been used on other aircraft designs, and to what effect; -- empirical evidence from hangar rash and bad landings; -- protection from the hazards of hangar rash; -- considerations of ease of repair; -- effects of various shapes, etc., etc. -- considerations in extending the plywood, top and bottom; -- considerations of a "D" box spar; -- and more......................... Then you call it all "guessing" or "speculation". In contrast, you have been given by informed and experienced builders and fliers the very parameters to develop an ideal setup. For one, I hope you will find the perfect match for your tools, skills and needs. Maybe that is what you meant to say, opr even said. I believe this subject has been discussed more exhaustively than previously, and fruitfully as well, thanks to you and your respondents. Use the information well. Tim in central TX do not archive -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Perez >Sent: Dec 11, 2008 7:55 AM >To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com >Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up > >Gene, again, I never said I was making a "D" shaped enclosed frontal area. See how things get messed up? I am not sure why this enclosed "D" leading edge came up. I actually questioned why the ply on top had to go back to the spar, you say it does not. > >What I see here and Gene's last email confirms it, that we are all guessing! Some swear by the plans and having a stick leading edge, some agree you don't need one, or maybe even the plywood. That alone tells me what ever I come up with will work. Looks like no one has any hard evidence one way or another, just a lot of speculation. > >We do agree on one thing Gene, wayyy out of hand! I thought it was a simple question needing only some facts and a good explanation. > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:23 AM PST US From: "Dick N." Subject: Pietenpol-List: white stuff on wings Hey Corky, How's it looking out there this morning? Dick N. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 09:38:00 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: a wing cutout is a design change From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Gene R. wrote: By the way, the wing cut out for the pilot to enter the cockpit was in the original design, so when you "talk about a design change", you might want to use another example. Technically there is no wing cutout on the Pietenpol plans as the complete airfoil goes along for the ride every time you fly in the form of a hinged 'flop' whereas a wing cutout never does. ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 12:45:03 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Formed Control Horns From: "Catdesigns" Did anyone rust protect the inside of the the formed control horns so they don't rust from the inside out? If so what did you use? Chris Sacramento, CA -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218952#218952 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:00:59 PM PST US From: Michael Groah Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Formed Control Horns Although I'm not done with my project yet, I did shoot some primer into the interior through the opening that's left at the attachment area. I figured I should coat the bare metal with something in there. Did anyone rust protect the inside of the the formed control horns so they don't rust from the inside out? If so what did you use? Chris Sacramento, CA -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218952#218952 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:09:45 PM PST US From: "TOM STINEMETZE" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Formed Control Horns >Did anyone rust protect the inside of the the formed control horns so they don't rust from the inside out? If so what did you use? >Chris >Sacramento, CA Chris: I haven't built any control horns yet but plan to protect them on the outside with Zinc Oxide purchased from Aircraft Spruce in the typical rattle can. I have used this successfully with all my metal parts so far - just obey the safety instructions as this can be nasty stuff. A.S. carries both Zinc Chromate and Zinc Oxide in rattle cans. As for the inside of the part - since it will have holes drilled into both ends it should be possible to slosh oil in there just like you would a tubing framework. Help me out list members, isn't this normally linseed oil? I don't believe that you would want to spray the part with the Zinc product prior to welding as this would contaminate the weld and probably produce some gasses you don't want to inhale. Tom Stinemetze McPherson, KS. ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:12:31 PM PST US From: "Mandy & Michael Green" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Formed Control Horns Chris, I used LPS3, but I guess any rust preventitive compound will work well. Mike Green Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Catdesigns" Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 7:44 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Formed Control Horns > > Did anyone rust protect the inside of the the formed control horns so they > don't rust from the inside out? If so what did you use? > > Chris > Sacramento, CA > > -------- > Chris Tracy > Sacramento, CA > WestCoastPiet.com > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=218952#218952 > > > __________ NOD32 3682 (20081210) Information __________ > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 02:54:02 PM PST US From: "Gene Rambo" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Michael, I am not guessing at anything, I have been doing this stuff for over 30 years as an A&P/IA. Do whatever you want. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 10:23 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Rather then to continue to degrade this list and this thread further with useless comments like the one below, I will take the route of the more intelligent people on this list who realize they have nothing constructive to offer and move on. My $0.02. For those who responded with constructive responses/ideas/comments, I look forward to your thoughts in my future posts. --- On Thu, 12/11/08, glennthomas@flyingwood.com wrote: From: glennthomas@flyingwood.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Date: Thursday, December 11, 2008, 9:59 AM Perhaps someone could request that Matt Dralle create an "off-the-wall idea" list. It would help the 99% of us that don't want to redesign everything just for the sake of doing it continue to enjoy this forum. My $0.02. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/contribution 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 04:26:33 PM PST US From: "Peter W Johnson" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, I built my Piet to Jim Will's PFA approved plans. They include the shaped spruce leading edge (nose piece) covered from the top of the front spar, around the leading edge nose spruce and all the way to the bottom of the front spar. This forms a structural D section forward of the front spar. All the nose ribs and top and bottom spar contact points are glued. Cheers Peter Wonthaggi http://www.cpc-world.com (check out "Airframe Construction" -> "Wings" -> "Outer Sections" _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Gene Rambo Sent: Friday, 12 December 2008 12:51 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up I believe that I said wrapping the material (aluminum, cardboard, etc) all the way around. that was the point of my initial post, too many on here are using terms interchangably and not being specific whether the "leading edge" refers just to the wooden "stick" on the rib noses or the entire area in front of the spar. I may not have been clear enough, but read as a whole, I was stating that there is a difference between merely wrapping aluminum all the way around, and forming plywood and glueing it all the way around and to the spars, creating a D box. Gene ----- Original Message ----- From: Ryan Mueller Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 8:17 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Leaing ege follow up Gene, Sorry, couldn't resist.... In your first email in this thread you state: "Wrapping plywood all the way around the leading edge from spar to spar would create, as many have pointed out, a "D box" spar...." In your reply to Peter you ask whether he is talking about an actual "D box", or just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around. This implies that just wrapping the leading edge material all the way around does not create a "D box", which is contrary to your previous post. Which is it? ;) Have a good morning, Ryan On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Gene Rambo wrote: Peter: I would have to see what the requirement is. What are we actually talking about, a full D section structural leading edge, or just wrapping the leading edge material (such as aluminum) all the way around? I would be very surprised if they actually required a major structural alteration such as an actual D box. Gene href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/ctitle =http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matronic s.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 05:59:55 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Formed Control Horns From: "Don Emch" Chris, I did. I used boiled linseed oil. It just seems like that would be an area for moisture to collect. Don Emch NX899DE Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=219003#219003 ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 10:20:07 PM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Old PopSci's available from 1930s via Google RE: Pietenpol-List: Old PopSci's available from 1930s via GoogleAnd then there's these; http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&p=42563&cat=1,46096,461 00 Our ancestors came up with some truly outragious stuff. Clif ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Church To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Old PopSci's available from 1930s via Google Too Cool. People were apparently a lot more self-sufficient way back when. I could spend hours looking through those old magazines. Now, how am I going to find time to build. Thanks for the link, Mike. Bill C. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 12/10/2008 6:53 PM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.