---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 12/20/08: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:22 AM - Re: wing tip bows (Clif Dawson) 2. 04:56 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (Ed G.) 3. 07:07 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (Rick Holland) 4. 07:17 AM - Re: ahhhhh purity (H RULE) 5. 07:33 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (Michael Perez) 6. 07:36 AM - Interesting site / off topic (walt) 7. 07:42 AM - Re: wing tip bows (Michael Perez) 8. 08:01 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (Michael Perez) 9. 08:15 AM - Re: ahhhhh purity (Michael Perez) 10. 08:17 AM - Re: Interesting site / off topic (Michael Perez) 11. 09:55 AM - Re: Interesting site / off topic (walt) 12. 10:02 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (amsafetyc@aol.com) 13. 10:37 AM - Re: Wing tip bow (Lloyd Smith) 14. 10:40 AM - Re: Interesting site / off topic (H RULE) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:22:54 AM PST US From: "Clif Dawson" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing tip bows So just what is it about this Pietenpol Airyplane anyway? For some of us it's a "piece of history from 1932 time machine" and others a starting point from which to hare off from in all mannner of directions. I find it all thought provoking, entertaining and sometimes just downright hilarious. I love it! Thank you all! Sent to you from the northwesterly shores of the Wild Pacific Ocean. Clif Remember, Whatever you can't laugh at owns you. Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing tip bows TIME OUT EVERYONE!! If, somehow, I'm misunderstanding all of this and this is just good humor among friends, then I apologize to all for getting on my soapbox. Gene in windy Tennessee ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 12/19/2008 10:09 AM ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:56:34 AM PST US From: "Ed G." Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow Hi Michael Please don't take this the wrong way=2C I'm only trying to be of help. I don't know anything about you or your level of woodworking skill s. But "IF" your reason for wanting to use a straight piece of wood for you r wing tip bows is that you are intimidated by the process of laminating th e curved ones I will be glad to snail mail you detailed drawings and direct ions on how it's done. You're welcome to e-mail me off list if you want. Th ey are easy=2C almost fun to make and very rewarding. A straight line between the nose and tip of a rib is way down near the bo ttom edge. The spars would need to be cut to match them. As a compression s trut they would be way off center causing the spars to twist under load unl ess you added an upper strut and the drag wires' geometry would have an upw ard component unless they were moved to the center of the spar somehow. If that is not your reason then please make them however you want. Ed Gr entzer Fl. t: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bowTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sorry Walt=2C I will build my plane the way I want to. Sorry you interpret my questions as a negative. For the others=2C thanks or the posts and the link to those great pictures. I was not thinking of a flat boeard as the pictures show=2C I was going to use a tip=2C just not curved. We'll see=2C not quite there yet. --- On Fri =2C 12/19/08=2C walt wrote: From: walt Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bowTo : pietenpol-list@matronics.comDate: Friday=2C December 19=2C 2008=2C 6:34 P M Good for you Ed G.! Build to the plans. PS This isn't a "what can I change on the plans"=2C site. PPS To me =2C It's belittleing Bernard Pietenpol's talents=2C to try to ch ange his plans. walt evansNX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Ed G. Sent: Friday=2C December 19=2C 2008 10:59 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow One of the many things I have learned while building my Piet over the last eight years is that the master has already figuered out most of the "what ifs" for us. That's why we bought his plans. Yes=2C somethings need to be c hanged to work in todays airport environment=2C BUT. Everything that I have changed has added extra planning and changeing at least one something else to work with the change which requires more planning and experimenting whi ch adds exponentially to the build time. So=2C I have learned that at least with my limited time to devote to my Piet=2C If I ever plan to fly the thi ng=2C I had better quit "Changeing" and "Planning" and keep building. It's amazing how much progress can be made when just building to the plans. Ed G. Do Not archive href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/chr ef="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:07:11 AM PST US From: "Rick Holland" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow Well said Mike, I am more the type C. If I wanted to get in the air as soon as possible in a Piet I would have bought a completed one and saved a bunch of money. I am in it more for the learning experience and the chance to communicate with bright and motivated people like the people on this group , and at Broadhead, and Oshkosh. Rick On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:52 AM, bike.mike wrote: > Michael, > > This list is a warm and friendly home to all types of enthusiasts. > > Most of us here are type B, building pretty much to plan but changing a few > things to suit us and our budgets and operational reality. (If it looks > somewhat like a Piet, then it is a Piet.) > > There are the type A, who build exactly to the plans as they were drawn in > 1933, or was it 1934, and published in the Flying and Glider manual, or sold > by the third and/or fourth generation of Pietenpol descenants. These plans > are an exact representation of BHP's airplane as it was right between his > 101st and 102nd modifications. (If it has an aluminum head on the Model A > engine, then it isn't a Pietenpol. A three-piece wing is suspect.) (and > it's "Bernard", never "Bernie") > > Then there are the type C. These are the folks who believe that building > an experimental airplane is a learning experience. They want to enjoy the > same process and progress that BHP did. They want to experiment with > available materials, like BHP did. They want to try new things, like BHP > did. > > Bernard Pietenpol built a number of airplanes, no two of them exactly > alike. He was able to learn a lot from his building and flying, you should > too. (It's rumored that his first one did not have seatbelts). > The guys here who say you should build to plan are right, if you want to > fly soon in an airplane whose experimentation was enjoyed more than 75 years > ago. If you want a replica of an historical airplane, you have to add in > some knowledge gained from old photographs and written history. But if you > want to learn a lot, experiment, using some of the answers you get here as a > guide to keep you out of trouble. > And don't ever think that experimenting just like BHP did is in any way > belittling what he accomplished. > > Mike > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Michael Perez > *To:* pietenpol-list@matronics.com > *Sent:* Friday, December 19, 2008 4:08 PM > *Subject:* Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow > > Sorry Walt, I will build my plane the way I want to. Sorry you interpret > my questions as a negative. > > For the others, thanks or the posts and the link to those great pictures. I > was not thinking of a flat boeard as the pictures show, I was going to use a > tip, just not curved. We'll see, not quite there yet. > > --- On *Fri, 12/19/08, walt * wrote: > > ** > > * > > -- Rick Holland Castle Rock, Colorado ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:26 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ahhhhh purity For the purists,there isn't any such thing.To use the original model A engi ne as used back in the day you would be changing leathers on a constant bas is.Today we use different materials which don't wear out as fast.That's jus t one point.There are many others to point to.Bernard was anything but a pu rist,that's why you have the designs you have today.Remember he started wit h a Jenny.If he was a purist then we would be flying Jenny's instead of Pie tenpols,GN-1 Aircampers,etc.,etc.For the purist ,I commend you on getting c lose.Your planes are beautiful and crowd pleasers.I love the sound of the o ld model A as I do the sound of Prat and Whitney's.I look forward to the da y when someone with deep pockets builds a composite Pietenpol,sacrilege you say,not really.It would both strong and light and different.It would be ne at to see.How bout that for an engineering challenge?!I throw it out to you builders.By the way I am-not a builder.I am a buyer and a flyer.I wish I could do the things you guys and gals do.I built a bird house once and even the birds wouldn't go in it.I finished off a GN-1 Aircamper that h ad been in production since 1977 but not without the help of a lot of real handy people including a couple of AME's.Keep the midnight oil burning out there and the wood chips flying if not for yourselves then for guys like me who really enjoy your work!Unfortunately the man who started my plane is l ong since dead but his son did see his name in conjunction with my plane in a magazine after he googled his fathers name-and contacted me to come an d see his fathers plane and see it flying ,which he did and he was delighte d with what he saw.You see as a boy he would crawl through the fuselage and smell the wood- while running in the cables etc. for his dad.When he loo ked into the fuselage and smelt the wood it brought back all those wonderfu l memories of helping his dad-.=0A ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:41 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow Thank you Mike. I understand exactly what you are saying. I respect those o n this list not only from a human standpoint, but I respect their ways of t hinking and the way they choose to build their planes. I get some very usef ul info. here, as we all have, as well as some useless badgering. I try to take it all in stride and I try not to let it get out of hand. (Bite my ton gue from time to time.)- I think this is a great forum to gain/give knowl edge for a very small community of fliers who chose the Pietenpol. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:36:29 AM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic Interesting site of odd aircraft that the US Gov't tried. Didn't know there were so many. http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/UNITED%20STATES.htm Open it if you want, if not just delete this messege. Good viewing for a snowey weekend. Off topic. do not archive walt evans NX140DL ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:42:07 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: wing tip bows Thank you Gene. I really do ask so many questions here because I just don't know the answers. I hope to get useful answers from those who have experie nced what I am proposing to change, good or bad. My ideas are not always (s eldom) the best, but there is a chance that someone else has tried, seen, e xperienced exactly what I am asking and can tell me for sure GO or NO GO. M y plane will not be one so removed that it will not be recognized as a Piet . I needed a platform to start with and the Pietenpol was the best foundati on for me. I-hope when it is finished, Mr. Pietenpol himself would approv e. - I love this site and I would not intentionally post things to lesson its va lue to the Piet. community. ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:01:39 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow Thanks for the reply Ed. I can make the bow as is, no problems. I have made furniture in the past that required laminating- 3 pieces of 3/8" thick o ak to form a curve for the arms of a chair. I had to make the form, jig, et c. - My spars are currently made as per the 3 piece wing print. I see what you a re saying with the alignment of the spars and leading/trailing edges. Havin g looked at it more, I would either need to make the tip as shown, or curve it in a way that it would mate to-the spars and leading/trailing edges. I guess I could make a straight piece-to attach to the spars, then anothe r from the front spar to the leading edge and yet a third to go from the re ar spar to the trailing edge. That would be a 3 piece tip and not very stro ng as a compression strut. -A straight tip along the spars just won't wor k, unless as you pointed out, the spars and other considerations are made t o fit. - Thanks. - ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:58 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: ahhhhh purity I had spent four years rebuilding a car that I dreamed of having someday wh ile I was in high school. Of course, it is quite modified now, but it was n ot a numbers matching car when I got it. I always thought that the guys who were trying to build a numbers matching, all original, as from the factory car, had it so much harder then me. They had twice the homework, twice the research to do, and at least 4 times the money to spend. I thought these g uys were the ones who knew what was what and if I were going to ask anyone questions these were the guys to go to. - The Pietenpol purist have their worked cut out for them trying to stay true to the original. It is hard to find the materials, the tools, the proper m ethods and techniques to use, etc. I salute their efforts and look forward to seeing one of these "originals" in person. ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 08:17:37 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic Sears Robuck!? Is there anything Sears didn't do back in the day? Those are some great pictures! ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 09:55:01 AM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic yeah, it's an interesting site. I never dreamed that the US tried so many "types" walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic Sears Robuck!? Is there anything Sears didn't do back in the day? Those are some great pictures! ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 10:02:58 AM PST US Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow From: amsafetyc@aol.com RG9uJ3Qga25vdyBhYm91dCBNaWNoYWVsIGJ1dCBJIHdvdWxkIGxvdmUgYSBzZXQuIEkgYW0gYWx3 YXlzIHdpbGxpbmcgdG8gbGVhcm4gZnJvbSBvdGhlcnMuIFNhdmVzIG1lIGZyb20gcmVpbnZlbnRp bmcgdGhlIHdoZWVsDQoNCkpvaG4NCg0KSm9obg0KU2VudCBmcm9tIG15IFZlcml6b24gV2lyZWxl c3MgQmxhY2tCZXJyeQ0KDQotLS0tLU9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UtLS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogIkVkIEcu IiA8Zmx5Ym95XzEyMEBob3RtYWlsLmNvbT4NCg0KRGF0ZTogU2F0LCAyMCBEZWMgMjAwOCAwNzo1 NTo1MSANClRvOiBwaWV0LWxpc3QgcGlldC1saXN0PHBpZXRlbnBvbC1saXN0QG1hdHJvbmljcy5j b20+DQpTdWJqZWN0OiBSRTogUGlldGVucG9sLUxpc3Q6IFdpbmcgdGlwIGJvdw0KDQoNCg0KSGkg TWljaGFlbCAgIFBsZWFzZSBkb24ndCB0YWtlIHRoaXMgdGhlIHdyb25nIHdheSwgSSdtIG9ubHkg dHJ5aW5nIHRvIGJlIG9mIGhlbHAuIEkgZG9uJ3Qga25vdyBhbnl0aGluZyBhYm91dCB5b3Ugb3Ig eW91ciBsZXZlbCBvZiB3b29kd29ya2luZyBza2lsbHMuIEJ1dCAiSUYiIHlvdXIgcmVhc29uIGZv 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RD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRA0KM0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9 M0Q9M0Q9M0Q9M0QNCjNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNE PTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEPTNEDQozRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0z RD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0z RD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0zRD0z RD0zRA0KDQo ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 10:37:15 AM PST US From: "Lloyd Smith" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Wing tip bow Only the portion between the spars would be considered the compression strut. The other two pieces would comprise the outboard leading and trailing edges. What you describe sounds as though it would resemble the wingtip on a Tailwind, trapezoidal in shape. On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Michael Perez wrote: > Thanks for the reply Ed. I can make the bow as is, no problems. I have made > furniture in the past that required laminating 3 pieces of 3/8" thick oak > to form a curve for the arms of a chair. I had to make the form, jig, etc. > > My spars are currently made as per the 3 piece wing print. I see what you > are saying with the alignment of the spars and leading/trailing edges. > Having looked at it more, I would either need to make the tip as shown, or > curve it in a way that it would mate to the spars and leading/trailing > edges. I guess I could make a straight piece to attach to the spars, then > another from the front spar to the leading edge and yet a third to go from > the rear spar to the trailing edge. That would be a 3 piece tip and not very > strong as a compression strut. A straight tip along the spars just won't > work, unless as you pointed out, the spars and other considerations are made > to fit. > > Thanks. > > > * > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 10:40:23 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic It's no wonder that people thought they were seeing flying saucers from tim e time.What an amazing collection of aircraft pictures.Thank you very much for this!=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________________________ _=0AFrom: walt =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com; Fi shnet@topica.com=0ASent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 10:36:07 AM=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Interesting site / off topic=0A=0A=0AInteresting site of o dd aircraft that the US Gov't tried.=0ADidn't know there were so many.=0Aht tp://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/UNITED%20STATES.htm=0AOpen it if you want, if not just delete this messege.=0AGood viewing for a snowey weekend.=0AOff topic.=0A-=0Ado not archive=0A-=0Awalt evans=0ANX140DL=0A=0A-=0A == ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.