---------------------------------------------------------- Pietenpol-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/23/09: 27 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:46 AM - Brodhead and OSH (Lawrence Williams) 2. 05:31 AM - Pietenpol Air Camper Turns 80 --Larry William's plane photo included ! (Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]) 3. 06:39 AM - Aileron travel limit (Michael Perez) 4. 06:47 AM - Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH (Woodflier@aol.com) 5. 06:53 AM - Re: Aileron travel limit (Gary Boothe) 6. 07:17 AM - Re: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH (Phillips, Jack) 7. 07:17 AM - Re: Aileron travel limit (Lagowski Morrow) 8. 08:31 AM - Re: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH (H RULE) 9. 10:14 AM - PIETENPOL WHEELS AND AXLE (TGSTONE236@aol.com) 10. 10:46 AM - Re: Aileron travel limit (jimd) 11. 10:50 AM - Re: Experimenter & Piet Photos (jimd) 12. 01:21 PM - Santa Maria Piet (Dave Abramson) 13. 01:37 PM - (Joemotis@aol.com) 14. 01:42 PM - Re: (Bill Church) 15. 01:42 PM - Re: Miniature table saws (Joemotis@aol.com) 16. 01:49 PM - Re: (Joemotis@aol.com) 17. 01:56 PM - Re: Miniature table saws (Jack T. Textor) 18. 02:25 PM - mini table saw (Cathy Boniface) 19. 03:16 PM - Re: mini table saw (Joemotis@aol.com) 20. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: Aileron travel limit (Michael Perez) 21. 03:53 PM - Re: (H RULE) 22. 04:24 PM - Re: (walt) 23. 05:27 PM - OT sailplane flight (Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB) 24. 05:49 PM - Re: Brodhead and OSH, Don E. (shad bell) 25. 07:57 PM - Re: Aileron travel limit (Mild Bill) 26. 08:56 PM - Re: Aileron travel limit (Mild Bill) 27. 11:40 PM - Re: Alternate Airfoils Riblett 612 and 613.5 (Mild Bill) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:50 AM PST US From: Lawrence Williams Subject: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead and OSH Well, let's see......Brodhead starts on Thursday this year, that means I'll have to leave AR the prior Friday. Then, to get to OSH by Sunday, I'll hav e to leave B'head Friday or Saturday- Which will only leave one day to en joy B'head! - Just kidding (but only a little). I'll be at both events but will only spen d a day or two at OSH as I'm on a fixed income now.My wife and I could go o n a nice cruise for the cost of staying at OSH for the week. - By the way gang; the little airport that I live at is going to have it's fi rst of what will be an annual fly-in the second week-end in June. It's goin g to be aimed at fabric-covered tailwheel airplanes and is open to all. My plan is to eventually spin off a Pietenpol (er, snowflake) fly-in if there is enough participation. - There should be-quite a few-on the list within striking distance of Lit tle Rock that could attend and-make an impact. Contact me off-line for de tails. I hate to tie up the list with stuff like this. - Larry - ps. I'll have hangar space for a couple of planes and our guest quarters wi ll also be available.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:31:15 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Pietenpol Air Camper Turns 80 --Larry William's plane photo included ! From: "Cuy, Michael D. (GRC-RXD0)[ASRC]" Pietenpol Air Camper Turns 80 Flight to Oshkosh, special activities planned for AirVenture Bernard Pietenpol's 1933 Air Camper is the centerpiece of EAA's Pietenpol Hangar at Pioneer Airport. In the late 1920s, Bernard Pietenpol, of Cherry Grove, Minnesota, had the dream of designing an inexpensive homebuilt airplane using commonly available materials and powered by an auto engine. The result, after a few iterations, was a simple, two-place open cockpit airplane of wood construction and powered by a four-cylinder Ford Model A automobile engine. Eighty years later, the Pietenpol Air Camper endures as a popular homebuilt design built, loved, and flown by thousands of aviation enthusiasts the world over. EAA will honor Pietenpol's time-tested, low-and-slow airplane at AirVenture Oshkosh 2009. Bill Rewey of Verona, Wisconsin, EAA 42474, is helping organize a gathering of Air Camper builders, pilots, and planes to participate in the celebration. "Right now we're talking about flying up from Brodhead (Wisconsin) on Sunday morning (July 26) in autonomous groups of five," said Rewey, a member of the Brodhead Pietenpol Association type club, which convenes its reunion there the weekend before Oshkosh. "We are also encouraging those with radios to use the regular Fisk approach." Arriving Air Campers will have reserved parking south of Homebuilders Headquarters near the old main entry arch. Rewey will also change the format of his annual Pietenpol forum, traditionally held on Tuesday morning during AirVenture. "Instead of my traditional discussion of the airplane, we'll have individual builders attend and spend a few moments each talking about their airplanes," he said. Also being planned some time during AirVenture is a special reception for builders and Air Camper pilots at EAA's Pietenpol Hangar on Pioneer Airport. On display there is Bernard's own N12937, which was built in 1933 and is considered the oldest Air Camper in existence. EAA further honors the Air Camper this year by depicting the airplane on the "I Flew My Homebuilt" patch given to all homebuilders registering at Homebuilt Headquarters. Look for more information as events and activities are confirmed at www.AirVenture.org . Pietenpol owners wishing to participate at Oshkosh should visit the Brodhead Pietenpol Association website, www.pietenpols.org . Pietenpol Air Camper - Specifications Length: 17 ft, 8 in Wingspan: 29 ft 0 in Height: 6.5 ft 6 in Wing area: 145 sq ft Empty weight: 620 lbs Max takeoff weight: 1,040 lbs Powerplant: Original - Ford Model A. (Others include Velie, Kinner, Lycoming, Franklin, Continental, and Chevy Corvair) Maximum speed: 86 knots (100 mph) Stall speed: 30 knots (35 mph) Rate of climb: 500 ft/min ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:39:13 AM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron travel limit What seems to be the limiting factor on aileron travel? Is it the stick, le gs or the aileron itself? (hinge screws, bell crank, design...) - - ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:47:46 AM PST US From: Woodflier@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH I'm trying to get my Piet finished and the time flown off so that I can fly it to Brodhead and then on the OSH with the group this year. I'd say the odd were about 50-50 that I'll be finished in time but I'm working most every evening on it. Last night, I welded up two of the fittings for the engine mount that attach the mount to the fuselage fittings so it's moving along. Depending on how long it takes to get the engine torn down, inspected and put back together, I think I have a shot at it. Jack, if it all comes together, maybe we could meet up somewhere and go in as a flight of two. Matt Paxton **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:44 AM PST US From: "Gary Boothe" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Aileron travel limit Yes. Gary Boothe Cool, Ca. Pietenpol WW Corvair Conversion Tail done, working on fuselage (endless metal parts!) (12 ribs down.) _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Michael Perez Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 6:38 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron travel limit What seems to be the limiting factor on aileron travel? Is it the stick, legs or the aileron itself? (hinge screws, bell crank, design...) ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:08 AM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH From: "Phillips, Jack" Sounds good, Matt. I'll be launching from Smith Mountain Lake, since that is where I base the Piet now. First stop will likely be Beckley, West Virginia. By that point we will have the worst of the mountains behind us. Last year, on the leg between Martinsville VA and Beckley WV, the GPS said I was making 27 knots groundspeed. Here's a picture of typical terrain on that leg. Not a very good place for a forced landing. Jack Phillips NX899JP _____ From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodflier@aol.com Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 9:46 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH I'm trying to get my Piet finished and the time flown off so that I can fly it to Brodhead and then on the OSH with the group this year. I'd say the odd were about 50-50 that I'll be finished in time but I'm working most every evening on it. Last night, I welded up two of the fittings for the engine mount that attach the mount to the fuselage fittings so it's moving along. Depending on how long it takes to get the engine torn down, inspected and put back together, I think I have a shot at it. Jack, if it all comes together, maybe we could meet up somewhere and go in as a flight of two. Matt Paxton _____ A Good Credit Score i3x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx? sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=DecemailfooterNO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps! _________________________________________________ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privilege d, proprietary or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other use of the email by you is p rohibited. Dansk - Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - N orsk - Portuguese ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:17:08 AM PST US From: "Lagowski Morrow" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Aileron travel limit My legs are my aileron stops--Jim Lagowski ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Perez To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 9:38 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Aileron travel limit What seems to be the limiting factor on aileron travel? Is it the stick, legs or the aileron itself? (hinge screws, bell crank, design...) 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= 3D ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com 1/23/2009 7:28 AM ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:31:16 AM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH Sure- is puuuuuurdy though!=0A=0Ado not archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A___________ _____________________=0AFrom: "Phillips, Jack" =0ATo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, January 23, 2009 10:15:57 AM=0ASubject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH=0A=0A=0ASounds good, Matt.- I=A2ll be launching from Smith Mounta in Lake , since that is where I base the Piet now.- First stop will likel y be Beckley , West Virginia .- By that point we will have the worst of t he mountains behind us.=0A-=0ALast year, on the leg between Martinsville VA and Beckley WV , the GPS said I was making 27 knots groundspeed.=0A- =0AHere=A2s a picture of typical terrain on that leg.- Not a very good pl ace for a forced landing.=0A-=0AJack Phillips=0ANX899JP=0A-=0A=0A______ __________________________=0A=0AFrom:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics. com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Woodfli er@aol.com=0ASent: Friday, January 23, 2009 9:46 AM=0ATo: pietenpol-list@ma tronics.com=0ASubject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Flying the Piet to Brodhead and OSH=0A-=0AI'm trying to get my Piet finished and the time flown off so th at I can fly it to Brodhead and then on the OSH with the group this year. I 'd say the odd were about 50-50 that I'll be finished in time but I'm worki ng most every evening on it. Last night, I welded up two of the fittings fo r the engine mount that attach the mount to the fuselage fittings so it's m oving along. Depending on how long it takes to get the engine torn down, in spected and put back together, I think I have a shot at it. =0A-=0AJack, if it all comes together, maybe we could meet up somewhere and go in as a f light of two.=0A-=0AMatt Paxton=0A-=0A=0A______________________________ __=0A=0AA Good Credit Score i3x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecredit report.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=Decemailfooter NO62"> See yours in just 2 easy steps!=0A -=0A -=0Ahttp://www.matronics .com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List=0Ahttp://forums.matronics.com=0Ahttp://www.ma tronics.com/contribution=0A -=0A_________________________________________ ________=0A=0AThis message is for the designated recipient only and may con tain privileged, proprietary=0Aor otherwise private information. If you hav e received it in error, please notify the sender=0Aimmediately and delete t Deutsch - Espanol - Francais - Italiano - Japanese - Nederlands - Norsk - P ortuguese=0A ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:14:07 AM PST US From: TGSTONE236@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: PIETENPOL WHEELS AND AXLE I have a 1 1/2 in x 63 1/2 in axle for sale with 2- 36 spoke 16 in wheels. tires are 3.50 x 16 . tires need to be replaced, and can be ordered from JC Whitney. Wheels are more adaptable for no a brake Pietenpol with tail skid. Can be yours for $ 125.00 plus shipping. Reach me off list if interested. TGSTONE236@AOL.COM Ted Stone 910-617-5232 Wilmington NC **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! cemailfooterNO62) ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:46:13 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron travel limit From: "jimd" Believe they all can come in to play. My plane is an oddball for this list, as it is based on a GN-1, but is a biplane variant on it. The top wing's aileron's are able to move almost 180 degrees before any control cables are attached, but 90 degrees up or down would not work so much like an aileron, but more like a brake, so I doubt anyone would want anywhere near that range of motion, and with the control horns and cables it would be far less than that. On my plane the lower wing has a different aileron configuration. The back of the wing where the aileron is located slopes, and the aileron is attached at the top of the wing, limiting travel a good deal. It can move up a long way, but down maybe 50 degrees. It is worked by a control rod linking it to the upper ailerons, so when all the control horns and everything are taken in to account, I probably am starting with 40 degrees up/down before the limits come in with the stick's range of motion or any other limits. What prompted the question? Seems like the ailerons are large enough and responsive enough to work for most people. Jim D. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226394#226394 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 10:50:37 AM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Experimenter & Piet Photos From: "jimd" Oscar Zuniga's Flying Squirrel project is featured in the first edition. Way to go Oscar! Jim D. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226398#226398 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:21:00 PM PST US From: "Dave Abramson" Subject: Pietenpol-List: Santa Maria Piet Sure! I live in Orange County, and go up to Santa Maria to work on the piet as much as I can. It would have to be GOOD timing for us to meet up! Give me a call next week! 714-721-5299! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of amsafetyc@aol.com Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 1:44 PM Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet News Letter Photo Dave Is that an open invitation? I am not really certain where those areas are however Ill be in Ontario,Fontana,City of Industry the week of Jan 26 and would enjoy looking at Piets in progress. Even at the risk of inviting myself. The unbridled avarice of Pietenpol mania knows no shame or humility. John ------Original Message------ From: Dave Abramson Sender: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com ReplyTo: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Jan 22, 2009 11:56 AM Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet News Letter Photo Hi Chris! I am building my Pietenpol at Santa Maria Airport! There are a couple at San Luis Obispo, and one at Lompoc. If you are ever in in the area you can check out mine! Cheers! Dave -----Original Message----- From: owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-pietenpol-list-server@matronics.com]On Behalf Of Catdesigns Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 8:32 AM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Piet News Letter Photo The picture of Ted Davis's plane I believe was taken by Bill Church. Sorry for all the confusion. I will Email Doc and let him know where the credit should go. As for the website, the vast majority of the photos on WestCostPiet.com were not taken by me because I have only seen two completed and three under construction Pietenpols (including my own) in my life time. I have never seen one fly. Sad I know but I cant get Mike Cuy to fly his over the Sierras so I can see one fly. I know there are a few Pietenpols here in California but I guess they have to keep them hidden from all the RV and Fast Glass owners. A lot of the early photos I got off the internet. Since then I have been given photos by a few other sources, such as Bill. I didn't anticipate others using them in published documents so I never thought about trying to add credit for the photographer. They were used only to help me build. Prior to the website I used to send people copies on CD but found it cheaper in the long run to put them on a web page. In the future I will try to add a photographer name to the photos if I can find a easy way to do it. Speaking of photos, we need more construction photos on the site. If some of you builders could send me some pictures, I would really appreciate it. You can remain anonymous or go by a code name if you want. Chris -------- Chris Tracy Sacramento, CA WestCoastPiet.com Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226182#226182 Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 01:37:38 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone have a recommendation for a high quality miniature table saw to use building a Pietenpol Thanks, Joe Motis No Archivos http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226394#226394 **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:42 PM PST US From: "Bill Church" Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List: Miniature table saw? Why miniature? Bill C. ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 01:42:42 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List:Miniature table saws In a message dated 1/23/2009 1:38:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Joemotis@aol.com writes: Anyone have a recommendation for a high quality miniature table saw to use building a Pietenpol Thanks, Joe Motis No Archivos http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226394#226394 the such e, nbsp; --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ; --> ======================= - List Contribution Web Site ======================== ____________________________________ >From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the _latest news_ (http://aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) . (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 01:49:44 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Space requirements. My 10" Dewalt on the folding stand is a little big for my current work area. I also build G scale train buildings and it is to large for some of the smaller parts. I have seen the Junque one at Harbor Freight and it is no way near suitable. I remember Dremel made one but not anymore.Hmm.. maybe e bay Joe Motis No Archivos In a message dated 1/23/2009 1:43:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, eng@canadianrogers.com writes: Miniature table saw? Why miniature? Bill C. (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ________________________________ Message 17 ____________________________________ Time: 01:56:39 PM PST US Subject: RE: Pietenpol-List:Miniature table saws From: "Jack T. Textor" Joe, I guess I also ask why mini. I bought the large 3HP belt drive Central Machine and couldn't be happier. Like it much more than my Craftsman. Jack www.textors.com ________________________________ Message 18 ____________________________________ Time: 02:25:33 PM PST US From: "Cathy Boniface" Subject: Pietenpol-List: mini table saw try the proxxon miniature table saw , you will like it. it can do anything a big saw can do except take up a lot of room. just google proxxon and have a look wayne ________________________________ Message 19 ____________________________________ Time: 03:16:49 PM PST US From: Joemotis@aol.com Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: mini table saw Thanks Wayne, that is exactly what I am looking for. Pricey little guy, have to start searching. Did see two Dremel saws on E Bay at over a hundred bucks and bidding was not over. Joe Motis No Archivos In a message dated 1/23/2009 2:26:14 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, catway@sympatico.ca writes: try the proxxon miniature table saw , you will like it. it can do anything a big saw can do except take up a lot of room. just google proxxon and have a look wayne (http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Pietenpol-List) (http://www.matronics.com/contribution) **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) ________________________________ Message 20 ____________________________________ Time: 03:36:27 PM PST US From: Michael Perez Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron travel limit I was asking because if, lets say, everyone said the travel was design rela ted, maybe a change would be in order. But if it was solely restricted due to legs, then well, that may be a personal issue.- My ailerons will be sl ightly shorter in length, so I was curious if I may get more "throw" from t hem. - --- On Fri, 1/23/09, jimd wrote: From: jimd Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron travel limit Believe they all can come in to play. My plane is an oddball for this list, as it is based on a GN-1, but is a biplane variant on it. The top wing's aileron's are able to move almost 180 degrees before any control cables are attached, but 90 degrees up or down would not work so much like an aileron, but more like a brake, so I doubt anyone would want anywhere near that range of motion, and with the control horns and cables it would be far less than tha t. On my plane the lower wing has a different aileron configuration. The back of the wing where the aileron is located slopes, and the aileron is attached a t the top of the wing, limiting travel a good deal. It can move up a long way, bu t down maybe 50 degrees. It is worked by a control rod linking it to the uppe r ailerons, so when all the control horns and everything are taken in to acco unt, I probably am starting with 40 degrees up/down before the limits come in wi th the stick's range of motion or any other limits. What prompted the question? Seems like the ailerons are large enough and responsive enough to work for most people. Jim D. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226394#226394 ________________________________ Message 21 ____________________________________ Time: 03:53:20 PM PST US From: H RULE Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: for makin small airplanes;-------------- sorry guys I couldn't resist!=0A=0A=0Adon't archive=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A_______________ _________________=0AFrom: Bill Church =0ATo: pieten pol-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:41:32 PM=0ASubjec t: RE: Pietenpol-List:=0A=0A=0AMiniature table saw?=0AWhy miniature?=0A- =========================0A ======================== ________________________________ Message 22 ____________________________________ Time: 04:24:16 PM PST US From: "walt" Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Joe, Unless your plan is to cut all your wood stock from large timber, I wouldn't waste your money. During building my project I did 99.9% of cutting on a Delta 10 in band saw, from Home Depot or Lowes. Besides builders don't realize how much good wood is wasted with the width of a table saw blade. PS If you have no tools and want to get the essentials......Small Band saw,,and bench drill press,,,start building walt evans NX140DL ----- Original Message ----- From: Joemotis@aol.com To: pietenpol-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 4:37 PM Subject: Pietenpol-List: Anyone have a recommendation for a high quality miniature table saw to use building a Pietenpol Thanks, Joe Motis No Archivos http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226394#226394 the such e, nbsp; --> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ; --> ======================= - List Contribution Web Site ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. ________________________________ Message 23 ____________________________________ Time: 05:27:15 PM PST US From: "Dortch, Steven D MAJ NG NG NGB" Subject: Pietenpol-List: OT sailplane flight Do Not Archive OT I just did my first Sailplane flight at 5C1. Not much lift but what a great experience. You really have to stomp on the rudder to get the thing to turn. Very relaxing all in all. I may try it again in the future. Blue Skies, Steve D ________________________________ Message 24 ____________________________________ Time: 05:49:39 PM PST US From: shad bell Subject: Re: Pietenpol-List: Brodhead and OSH, Don E. Don, sounds good, I already have the week of Brodhead and Oshkosh sceduled for vacation so that isn't a problem.- As long as my boss (wife) lets me I'm in for- thurs departure, tue return.- I am trying to talk dad into going, after all he did build the thing,- I only helped at the end with t he metal work.- I was at the dreaded chasing women and beer phase when co nstruction began, but thankfully grew out of it when I met my wonderful wif e, whom I now have a beutiful son with, and hopeful future "Pieter".- Pie tenpol Overcast 2009 here we come! - Shad - P.S. Dad will be driving his truck if he goes, we will have room for any ex cess luggage you want to bring, tent, sleep bag cooler etc, we can work tha t out later but keep it in mind.=0A=0A=0A ________________________________ Message 25 ____________________________________ Time: 07:57:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron travel limit From: "Mild Bill" jimd wrote: > Believe they all can come in to play. My plane is an oddball for this list, as it is based on a GN-1, but is a biplane variant on it. The top wing's aileron's are able to move almost 180 degrees before any control cables are attached, but 90 degrees up or down would not work so much like an aileron, but more like a brake, so I doubt anyone would want anywhere near that range of motion, and with the control horns and cables it would be far less than that. > > On my plane the lower wing has a different aileron configuration. The back of the wing where the aileron is located slopes, and the aileron is attached at the top of the wing, limiting travel a good deal. It can move up a long way, but down maybe 50 degrees. It is worked by a control rod linking it to the upper ailerons, so when all the control horns and everything are taken in to account, I probably am starting with 40 degrees up/down before the limits come in with the stick's range of motion or any other limits. > > What prompted the question? Seems like the ailerons are large enough and responsive enough to work for most people. > > Jim D. 40 degrees deflection is probably beyond the range of usefulness. I would have to dig around in reference material to verify this, but if memory serves me correctly the rate of change in lift with change in deflection for ailerons is fairly linear up to about 15 or 20 degrees, then starts falling off more and more rapidly until somewhere in the range between 30 and 40 degrees you get no change in lift with increasing deflection (but the drag keeps on increasing more and more rapidly, the last thing you need on a Pietenpol or GN-1). -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226483#226483 ________________________________ Message 26 ____________________________________ Time: 08:56:29 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Aileron travel limit From: "Mild Bill" speedbrake(at)sbcglobal.n wrote: > I was asking because if, lets say, everyone said the travel was design related, maybe a change would be in order. But if it was solely restricted due to legs, then well, that may be a personal issue. My ailerons will be slightly shorter in length, so I was curious if I may get more "throw" from them. Why will they be shorter? In general, you can get the same control authority with shorter ailerons by increasing the amount of deflection for the same joystick motion, but this only works up to a point because the shorter ailerons will hit the range of diminishing returns first. By the time the longer ailerons hit that range, they have generated a greater change in lift. The upshot of it all is that you can arrange for the control feel to be about the same for low to moderate roll commands, but the shorter ailerons will "run out of gas" when you get toward the limits. There is an exception to this. (It always has to get more complicated, doesn't it?) The stock Pietenpol has ailerons that go all the way out to a squared off tip. The last foot or so isn't as effective as the inboard area because it's immersed in the turbulent, chaotic flow whirling around the wingtips. You could chop the aileron off at half the distance between its tip and the end of its outermost diagonal brace without losing a significant amount of control authority. Better yet just shift the whole aileron one rib bay inward and shorten it slightly to the length of 6 rib bays. If your ailerons are going to be shorter because you're going to be chopping off some of the wing span, why would you want to be increasing the induced drag of the wing? -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226492#226492 ________________________________ Message 27 ____________________________________ Time: 11:40:59 PM PST US Subject: Pietenpol-List: Re: Alternate Airfoils Riblett 612 and 613.5 From: "Mild Bill" It only takes a small bunch of analysis to come up with a close estimate of where to set the incidence of the Riblett 612 or 613.5 relative to the Pietenpol FC-10. We know from Mike Shuck's "Commentary on the Pietenpol Airfoil" that the Pietenpol FC-10 has zero lift when its geometric chord line is at an angle of attack very close to -5 deg. This link should work (warning: it's 2.27 MB, so if you're on dial up you can sit back and grow a nice beard while you're downloading): http://www.matronics.com/photoshare/kchambers@winternals.com.04.10.2004/Commentary_on_the_Pietenpol_Airfoil.doc Now, it was asserted in http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?t=43066 that the Riblett 612 is very similar to the NACA 4412. If so, the angle of attack at zero lift of the Riblett 612 will be very close to that of the NACA 4412, which can be found here: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930081141_1993081141.pdf Glancing at Fig. 5 confirms a rough mental calculation interpolating the data in Table XV: The zero-lift angle of attack of the NACA 4412 is about -3.9 deg. Not a whole lot different from the Pietenpol FC-10, but you'll probably have less fiddling around to do if you start with the Riblett 612 at a geometric angle of incidence 1.1 deg greater than what is specified for the Pietenpol FC-10. (The same probably holds true for the Riblett 613.5, which is presumably not much if any different in mean camber line from the Riblett 612.) The angle of incidence of the horizontal tail would not be changed. -------- Bill Frank Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=226498#226498 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message pietenpol-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Pietenpol-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/pietenpol-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/pietenpol-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.